Hi All
Anyone know if you can get flexible hoses like this:

https://www.screwfix.com/p/flexible-...-x-300mm/2559g

but in 28mm style (compression fittings and corresponding hose diameter)?

I have a job to replace our cold water tank in the loft and there is an awkward
connection; something like this but in 28mm would be a big help. I haven't
been able to find any in BES etc.

Thanks for any pointers

J^n

On 12/12/2017 15:39, jkn wrote:
Hi All
Anyone know if you can get flexible hoses like this:

https://www.screwfix.com/p/flexible-...-x-300mm/2559g

but in 28mm style (compression fittings and corresponding hose diameter)?

I have a job to replace our cold water tank in the loft and there is an awkward
connection; something like this but in 28mm would be a big help. I haven't
been able to find any in BES etc.

Thanks for any pointers

J^n


As a last resort, four in parallel?

On 12/12/2017 15:39, jkn wrote:
Hi All
Anyone know if you can get flexible hoses like this:

https://www.screwfix.com/p/flexible-...-x-300mm/2559g

but in 28mm style (compression fittings and corresponding hose diameter)?

I have a job to replace our cold water tank in the loft and there is an awkward
connection; something like this but in 28mm would be a big help. I haven't
been able to find any in BES etc.

Thanks for any pointers

J^n


This plus two jubilee clips? Shouldn't really need mechanical protection
there. If there is a tight bend, could you adapt a car radiator hose of
some sort?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Straight-S...H1Dx FnfqYPeg

jkn wrote:
Hi All
Anyone know if you can get flexible hoses like this:

https://www.screwfix.com/p/flexible-...-x-300mm/2559g

but in 28mm style (compression fittings and corresponding hose diameter)?

I have a job to replace our cold water tank in the loft and there is an awkward
connection; something like this but in 28mm would be a big help. I haven't
been able to find any in BES etc.

Thanks for any pointers

J^n




Surely better to alter the plumbing on the €œhouse side€� to make it an easy
connection?

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

replying to jkn, Iggy wrote:
You'll need a Plumber as far as I can see and even then the new connecter may
have to be custom-made/bespoke. 28mm/1-1/8" is a very odd size. The only other
option I could find would be if you can cut off a fitting and sweat-on a new
connector, like this - COPPER SWEAT CONNECTOR 1€³ I.D. WITH 1€³ FIP x
1-1/8€³
http://falconstainless.com/product/1...weat-connector

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy...m-1256183-.htm

On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 4:45:01 PM UTC, Tim+ wrote:
jkn wrote:
Hi All
Anyone know if you can get flexible hoses like this:

https://www.screwfix.com/p/flexible-...-x-300mm/2559g

but in 28mm style (compression fittings and corresponding hose diameter)?

I have a job to replace our cold water tank in the loft and there is an awkward
connection; something like this but in 28mm would be a big help. I haven't
been able to find any in BES etc.

Thanks for any pointers

J^n




Surely better to alter the plumbing on the €œhouse side€� to make it an easy
connection?

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Ideally yes, but that is also not easy... There are two pipes going into a tee
about a foot away from the tank, and the third leg of the tee goes via a short
length of 28mm (I think) with a single shallow bend, into the tank.

It is all done at angles and having to raise the level of the new (plastic)
tank with a sheet of 18mm play will make it worse.

I might post a photo...

J^n

jkn wrote:

On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 4:45:01 PM UTC, Tim+ wrote:
jkn wrote:
Hi All
Anyone know if you can get flexible hoses like this:

https://www.screwfix.com/p/flexible-...-x-300mm/2559g

but in 28mm style (compression fittings and corresponding hose
diameter)?

I have a job to replace our cold water tank in the loft and there is
an awkward connection; something like this but in 28mm would be a big
help. I haven't been able to find any in BES etc.

Thanks for any pointers

J^n




Surely better to alter the plumbing on the "house side" to make it an easy
connection?

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Ideally yes, but that is also not easy... There are two pipes going into a
tee about a foot away from the tank, and the third leg of the tee goes via
a short length of 28mm (I think) with a single shallow bend, into the
tank.

It is all done at angles and having to raise the level of the new
(plastic) tank with a sheet of 18mm play will make it worse.

I might post a photo...

J^n
Perhaps you could put the tee in a different place or at a different
angle to give more room for the connecting pipe?

--

Roger Hayter

In article ,
jkn writes:
Hi All
Anyone know if you can get flexible hoses like this:

https://www.screwfix.com/p/flexible-...-x-300mm/2559g

but in 28mm style (compression fittings and corresponding hose diameter)?

I have a job to replace our cold water tank in the loft and there is an awkward
connection; something like this but in 28mm would be a big help. I haven't
been able to find any in BES etc.

Anaconda gas meter tails of 28mm/1.25" are available, from BES too:
https://www.bes.co.uk/flexible-meter...r-1-1-4in-8984
I don't know what their safe operating pressure is.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

(Andrew Gabriel) Wrote in message:
In article ,
jkn writes:
Hi All
Anyone know if you can get flexible hoses like this:

https://www.screwfix.com/p/flexible-...-x-300mm/2559g

but in 28mm style (compression fittings and corresponding hose diameter)?

I have a job to replace our cold water tank in the loft and there is an awkward
connection; something like this but in 28mm would be a big help. I haven't
been able to find any in BES etc.

Anaconda gas meter tails of 28mm/1.25" are available, from BES too:
https://www.bes.co.uk/flexible-meter...r-1-1-4in-8984
I don't know what their safe operating pressure is.


This shurely can only be a supply from the tank? So pressure will
tend towards feck all.

Perhaps of more importance as it's a cold tank would be whether
the gas pipes are lined with anything non-potable....


I'm sure Iggy /sPamela /NT/jbg will be along to pontificate soon ;-)

HoHoHo!! Etc

--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 10:33:05 PM UTC, jkn wrote:
On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 4:45:01 PM UTC, Tim+ wrote:
jkn wrote:
Hi All
Anyone know if you can get flexible hoses like this:

https://www.screwfix.com/p/flexible-...-x-300mm/2559g

but in 28mm style (compression fittings and corresponding hose diameter)?

I have a job to replace our cold water tank in the loft and there is an awkward
connection; something like this but in 28mm would be a big help. I haven't
been able to find any in BES etc.

Thanks for any pointers

J^n




Surely better to alter the plumbing on the €œhouse side€� to make it an easy
connection?

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Ideally yes, but that is also not easy... There are two pipes going into a tee
about a foot away from the tank, and the third leg of the tee goes via a short
length of 28mm (I think) with a single shallow bend, into the tank.

It is all done at angles and having to raise the level of the new (plastic)
tank with a sheet of 18mm play will make it worse.

I might post a photo...

J^n

OK, here is a photo of the offending pipework:

http://images.jkn.webfactional.com/u...y/IMAG1396.jpg

I have removed the grey insulation so things can be seen clearer.

As you can see there is a single 28mm pipe from the tank, a little naughtily then split into the Cold Water tap feed and the feed to the DHW.

Despite the bend in the pipe at (1), the pipe at (2) is actually not quite level, which I don't like very much. It is also very low to the bottom of the tank, less than the ?50--75mm? I have read should be the case.

Since I will be putting some 18mm ply under the new tank this will make things even trickier. Hence I was thinking of replacing pipe (2) with a hose....

Any other thoughts? The vertical pip is just the vent pipe and can be ignored BTW.

Cheers
J^n

Tim+ Wrote in message:
jkn Wrote in message:
On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 10:33:05 PM UTC, jkn wrote:
On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 4:45:01 PM UTC, Tim+ wrote:
jkn wrote:
Hi All
Anyone know if you can get flexible hoses like this:

https://www.screwfix.com/p/flexible-...-x-300mm/2559g

but in 28mm style (compression fittings and corresponding hose diameter)?

I have a job to replace our cold water tank in the loft and there is an awkward
connection; something like this but in 28mm would be a big help. I haven't
been able to find any in BES etc.

Thanks for any pointers

J^n




Surely better to alter the plumbing on the ?house side? to make it an easy
connection?

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Ideally yes, but that is also not easy... There are two pipes going into a tee
about a foot away from the tank, and the third leg of the tee goes via a short
length of 28mm (I think) with a single shallow bend, into the tank.

It is all done at angles and having to raise the level of the new (plastic)
tank with a sheet of 18mm play will make it worse.

I might post a photo...

J^n

OK, here is a photo of the offending pipework:

http://images.jkn.webfactional.com/u...y/IMAG1396.jpg

I have removed the grey insulation so things can be seen clearer.

As you can see there is a single 28mm pipe from the tank, a little naughtily then split into the Cold Water tap feed and the feed to the DHW.

Despite the bend in the pipe at (1), the pipe at (2) is actually not quite level, which I don't like very much. It is also very low to the bottom of the tank, less than the ?50--75mm? I have read should be the case.

Since I will be putting some 18mm ply under the new tank this will make things even trickier. Hence I was thinking of replacing pipe (2) with a hose...

Any other thoughts? The vertical pip is just the vent pipe and can be ignored BTW.

Cheers
J^n


Just fit an unvented pressurised HW tank and you can do away with
all that stuff. ;-)

Tim

And sign up to a load of other ££ stuff?
--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

Tim+ Wrote in message:
jim k Wrote in message:
Tim+ Wrote in message:
jkn Wrote in message:
On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 10:33:05 PM UTC, jkn wrote:
On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 4:45:01 PM UTC, Tim+ wrote:
jkn wrote:
Hi All
Anyone know if you can get flexible hoses like this:

https://www.screwfix.com/p/flexible-...-x-300mm/2559g

but in 28mm style (compression fittings and corresponding hose diameter)?

I have a job to replace our cold water tank in the loft and there is an awkward
connection; something like this but in 28mm would be a big help. I haven't
been able to find any in BES etc.

Thanks for any pointers

J^n




Surely better to alter the plumbing on the ?house side? to make it an easy
connection?

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Ideally yes, but that is also not easy... There are two pipes going into a tee
about a foot away from the tank, and the third leg of the tee goes via a short
length of 28mm (I think) with a single shallow bend, into the tank.

It is all done at angles and having to raise the level of the new (plastic)
tank with a sheet of 18mm play will make it worse.

I might post a photo...

J^n

OK, here is a photo of the offending pipework:

http://images.jkn.webfactional.com/u...y/IMAG1396.jpg

I have removed the grey insulation so things can be seen clearer.

As you can see there is a single 28mm pipe from the tank, a little naughtily then split into the Cold Water tap feed and the feed to the DHW.

Despite the bend in the pipe at (1), the pipe at (2) is actually not quite level, which I don't like very much. It is also very low to the bottom of the tank, less than the ?50--75mm? I have read should be the case.

Since I will be putting some 18mm ply under the new tank this will make things even trickier. Hence I was thinking of replacing pipe (2) with a hose...

Any other thoughts? The vertical pip is just the vent pipe and can be ignored BTW.

Cheers
J^n


Just fit an unvented pressurised HW tank and you can do away with
all that stuff. ;-)

Tim

And sign up to a load of other ££ stuff?

What other stuff?


Annual safety inspection & any repairs to safety relief valves etc.


Of course it'll cost to convert but you'll have mains pressure
hot water from all your hot taps. We didn't have to change
anything else despite having a very old Mira shower valve only
intended to be gravity fed.

Tim

--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

jkn wrote:

On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 10:33:05 PM UTC, jkn wrote:
On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 4:45:01 PM UTC, Tim+ wrote:
jkn wrote:
Hi All Anyone know if you can get flexible hoses like this:

https://www.screwfix.com/p/flexible-...-x-300mm/2559g

but in 28mm style (compression fittings and corresponding hose
diameter)?

I have a job to replace our cold water tank in the loft and there is
an awkward connection; something like this but in 28mm would be a
big help. I haven't been able to find any in BES etc.

Thanks for any pointers

J^n




Surely better to alter the plumbing on the "house side" to make it an easy
connection?

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Ideally yes, but that is also not easy... There are two pipes going into
a tee about a foot away from the tank, and the third leg of the tee goes
via a short length of 28mm (I think) with a single shallow bend, into
the tank.

It is all done at angles and having to raise the level of the new
(plastic) tank with a sheet of 18mm play will make it worse.

I might post a photo...

J^n

OK, here is a photo of the offending pipework:

http://images.jkn.webfactional.com/u...y/IMAG1396.jpg

I have removed the grey insulation so things can be seen clearer.

As you can see there is a single 28mm pipe from the tank, a little
naughtily then split into the Cold Water tap feed and the feed to the DHW.

Despite the bend in the pipe at (1), the pipe at (2) is actually not quite
level, which I don't like very much. It is also very low to the bottom of
the tank, less than the ?50--75mm? I have read should be the case.

Since I will be putting some 18mm ply under the new tank this will make
things even trickier. Hence I was thinking of replacing pipe (2) with a
hose...

Any other thoughts? The vertical pip is just the vent pipe and can be
ignored BTW.

Cheers J^n

Replace the tee with a 28/22/28 tee which should be easy if the nut
threads are the same (the olives will have to come off if not) and put a
slghtly bent bit of 22mm pipe in place of pipe 33. Obviously, slightly
bend a much longer piece and cut to length.


--

Roger Hayter

Tim+ Wrote in message:
jim k Wrote in message:
Tim+ Wrote in message:
jim k Wrote in message:
Tim+ Wrote in message:
jkn Wrote in message:
On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 10:33:05 PM UTC, jkn wrote:
On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 4:45:01 PM UTC, Tim+ wrote:
jkn wrote:
Hi All
Anyone know if you can get flexible hoses like this:

https://www.screwfix.com/p/flexible-...-x-300mm/2559g

but in 28mm style (compression fittings and corresponding hose diameter)?

I have a job to replace our cold water tank in the loft and there is an awkward
connection; something like this but in 28mm would be a big help. I haven't
been able to find any in BES etc.

Thanks for any pointers

J^n




Surely better to alter the plumbing on the ?house side? to make it an easy
connection?

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Ideally yes, but that is also not easy... There are two pipes going into a tee
about a foot away from the tank, and the third leg of the tee goes via a short
length of 28mm (I think) with a single shallow bend, into the tank.

It is all done at angles and having to raise the level of the new (plastic)
tank with a sheet of 18mm play will make it worse.

I might post a photo...

J^n

OK, here is a photo of the offending pipework:

http://images.jkn.webfactional.com/u...y/IMAG1396.jpg

I have removed the grey insulation so things can be seen clearer.

As you can see there is a single 28mm pipe from the tank, a little naughtily then split into the Cold Water tap feed and the feed to the DHW.

Despite the bend in the pipe at (1), the pipe at (2) is actually not quite level, which I don't like very much. It is also very low to the bottom of the tank, less than the ?50--75mm? I have read should be the case.

Since I will be putting some 18mm ply under the new tank this will make things even trickier. Hence I was thinking of replacing pipe (2) with a hose...

Any other thoughts? The vertical pip is just the vent pipe and can be ignored BTW.

Cheers
J^n


Just fit an unvented pressurised HW tank and you can do away with
all that stuff. ;-)

Tim

And sign up to a load of other ££ stuff?

What other stuff?


Annual safety inspection & any repairs to safety relief valves etc.

I don't think that's a legal requirement. Easy enough to replace
any faulty relief valves.

??
Corse it is...

--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

jim k Wrote in message:
Tim+ Wrote in message:
jim k Wrote in message:
Tim+ Wrote in message:
jim k Wrote in message:
Tim+ Wrote in message:
jkn Wrote in message:
On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 10:33:05 PM UTC, jkn wrote:
On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 4:45:01 PM UTC, Tim+ wrote:
jkn wrote:
Hi All
Anyone know if you can get flexible hoses like this:

https://www.screwfix.com/p/flexible-...-x-300mm/2559g

but in 28mm style (compression fittings and corresponding hose diameter)?

I have a job to replace our cold water tank in the loft and there is an awkward
connection; something like this but in 28mm would be a big help. I haven't
been able to find any in BES etc.

Thanks for any pointers

J^n




Surely better to alter the plumbing on the ?house side? to make it an easy
connection?

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Ideally yes, but that is also not easy... There are two pipes going into a tee
about a foot away from the tank, and the third leg of the tee goes via a short
length of 28mm (I think) with a single shallow bend, into the tank.

It is all done at angles and having to raise the level of the new (plastic)
tank with a sheet of 18mm play will make it worse.

I might post a photo...

J^n

OK, here is a photo of the offending pipework:

http://images.jkn.webfactional.com/u...y/IMAG1396.jpg

I have removed the grey insulation so things can be seen clearer.

As you can see there is a single 28mm pipe from the tank, a little naughtily then split into the Cold Water tap feed and the feed to the DHW.

Despite the bend in the pipe at (1), the pipe at (2) is actually not quite level, which I don't like very much. It is also very low to the bottom of the tank, less than the ?50--75mm? I have read should be the case.

Since I will be putting some 18mm ply under the new tank this will make things even trickier. Hence I was thinking of replacing pipe (2) with a hose...

Any other thoughts? The vertical pip is just the vent pipe and can be ignored BTW.

Cheers
J^n


Just fit an unvented pressurised HW tank and you can do away with
all that stuff. ;-)

Tim

And sign up to a load of other ££ stuff?

What other stuff?


Annual safety inspection & any repairs to safety relief valves etc.

I don't think that's a legal requirement. Easy enough to replace
any faulty relief valves.

??
Corse it is...


"Servicing requirements

Regular service and maintenance of unvented systems is vital and
should typically be carried out annually. Maintenance tasks
should include:

Cleaning and inspection of the strainer in the cold water
supply to the Pressure Reduction Valve
Inspection of pressure / temperature relief valve and
expansion relief valve
Manual operation of each relief valve to ensure that water
flows freely to the tundish, and that they reseat
correctly.
Checking of the pressure in the expansion vessel, and topping
up if required"

Is yours above someone's bed or to the side behind a stus wall ?
Or in a concrete "bunker".... ;-)

You don't pays yer money...
--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

jim k wrote:
Tim+ Wrote in message:

Annual safety inspection & any repairs to safety relief valves etc.

I don't think that's a legal requirement. Easy enough to replace
any faulty relief valves.

??
Corse it is...

What, easy to replace the valves? Yep. Regarding the law, I trust you can
furnish links to definitive web pages quoting the law stating that an
annual safety inspection is required because I cant find any. As far as
Im aware its an advisory, not a law.

We were not advised of any such requirement when ours was fitted.

An awful lot of things have to go wrong to turn one into a bomb, and
probably near impossible with one heated indirectly by hot water from a
boiler. Still, if you like your antique system, keep it. As everyone
knows, nothing can go wrong with a system like yours.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/3035606.stm

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...nreliable.html

http://peterfall.com/articles/heatin...g-water-tanks/


Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 11:57:21 PM UTC, Roger Hayter wrote:
jkn wrote:

On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 10:33:05 PM UTC, jkn wrote:
On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 4:45:01 PM UTC, Tim+ wrote:
jkn wrote:
Hi All Anyone know if you can get flexible hoses like this:

https://www.screwfix.com/p/flexible-...-x-300mm/2559g

but in 28mm style (compression fittings and corresponding hose
diameter)?

I have a job to replace our cold water tank in the loft and there is
an awkward connection; something like this but in 28mm would be a
big help. I haven't been able to find any in BES etc.

Thanks for any pointers

J^n




Surely better to alter the plumbing on the "house side" to make it an easy
connection?

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Ideally yes, but that is also not easy... There are two pipes going into
a tee about a foot away from the tank, and the third leg of the tee goes
via a short length of 28mm (I think) with a single shallow bend, into
the tank.

It is all done at angles and having to raise the level of the new
(plastic) tank with a sheet of 18mm play will make it worse.

I might post a photo...

J^n

OK, here is a photo of the offending pipework:

http://images.jkn.webfactional.com/u...y/IMAG1396.jpg

I have removed the grey insulation so things can be seen clearer.

As you can see there is a single 28mm pipe from the tank, a little
naughtily then split into the Cold Water tap feed and the feed to the DHW.

Despite the bend in the pipe at (1), the pipe at (2) is actually not quite
level, which I don't like very much. It is also very low to the bottom of
the tank, less than the ?50--75mm? I have read should be the case.

Since I will be putting some 18mm ply under the new tank this will make
things even trickier. Hence I was thinking of replacing pipe (2) with a
hose...

Any other thoughts? The vertical pip is just the vent pipe and can be
ignored BTW.

Cheers J^n

Replace the tee with a 28/22/28 tee which should be easy if the nut
threads are the same (the olives will have to come off if not) and put a
slghtly bent bit of 22mm pipe in place of pipe 33. Obviously, slightly
bend a much longer piece and cut to length.


--

Roger Hayter

Yebbut ... that (bent pipe...) will make the join to the tank *lower* than
it is at the moment ... whereas I want it *higher* ...

J^n

jkn wrote:

On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 11:57:21 PM UTC, Roger Hayter wrote:
snip

Replace the tee with a 28/22/28 tee which should be easy if the nut
threads are the same (the olives will have to come off if not) and put a
slghtly bent bit of 22mm pipe in place of pipe 33. Obviously, slightly
bend a much longer piece and cut to length.


--

Roger Hayter

Yebbut ... that (bent pipe...) will make the join to the tank *lower* than
it is at the moment ... whereas I want it *higher* ...

J^n

Could do either! Depends which way you put the bend. Don't forget
tee can rotate about it's 28mm axis.

--

Roger Hayter

Tim+ Wrote in message:
jim k wrote:
Tim+ Wrote in message:

Annual safety inspection & any repairs to safety relief valves etc.

I don't think that's a legal requirement. Easy enough to replace
any faulty relief valves.

??
Corse it is...

What, easy to replace the valves? Yep. Regarding the law, I trust you can
furnish links to definitive web pages quoting the law stating that an
annual safety inspection is required because I can?t find any. As far as
I?m aware it?s an advisory, not a law.

We were not advised of any such requirement when ours was fitted.

An awful lot of things have to go wrong to turn one into a bomb, and
probably near impossible with one heated indirectly by hot water from a
boiler. Still, if you like your antique system, keep it. As everyone
knows, nothing can go wrong with a system like yours.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/3035606.stm

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...nreliable.html

http://peterfall.com/articles/heatin...g-water-tanks/


Tim


Your life, your crossed fingers.

--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On 12/12/2017 15:39, jkn wrote:
Hi All
Anyone know if you can get flexible hoses like this:

https://www.screwfix.com/p/flexible-...-x-300mm/2559g

but in 28mm style (compression fittings and corresponding hose diameter)?

I have not seen any like that in 28mm, however you can get speedfit etc
in that size. my make things a bit easier.




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 14/12/2017 23:30, jim wrote:

Annual safety inspection & any repairs to safety relief valves etc.

Takes me all of 10 mins to do that on mine. Not needed to replace any
valves on mine so far.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/