Hi all

I am doing our bathroom up and we are having a cupboard with a couple sinks on top. The kids want to get electric tooth brushes so am wondering what my options are for providing power to the sink area for then to plug their toothbrushes in.

I assume there is no way of putting a socket on the wall between the sinks? Would putting it in the cupboard below the sinks be an option?

Also, I am fitting a spa bath. It has an IP55 box underneath to wire the pumps up so I plan to run the power from here to a socket somewhere. Can I put the socket for this in the cupboard too or should it be outside of the bathroom?

Thanks in advance all

Lee.

On 03/09/17 08:39, wrote:
Hi all

I am doing our bathroom up and we are having a cupboard with a couple sinks on top. The kids want to get electric tooth brushes so am wondering what my options are for providing power to the sink area for then to plug their toothbrushes in.

I assume there is no way of putting a socket on the wall between the sinks? Would putting it in the cupboard below the sinks be an option?

Also, I am fitting a spa bath. It has an IP55 box underneath to wire the pumps up so I plan to run the power from here to a socket somewhere. Can I put the socket for this in the cupboard too or should it be outside of the bathroom?

Thanks in advance all

Lee.


Bathroom shaver socket is the usual way - can be installed in Zone 2
over the basins if you like.

http://electrical.theiet.org/wiring-...-701/index.cfm

"Shaver supply units
The minimum degree of protection for equipment installed in zones 1 and
2 is IPX4, or IPX5 where water jets are likely to be used for cleaning
purposes. An exception to this requirement is a shaver supply unit
complying with BS EN 61558-2-5 which, although it does not meet the
requirements of IP4X, is permitted in zone 2 but must be located where
direct spray from showers is unlikely. This type of shaver supply unit
is the only type that is permitted in a bathroom or shower room."

Bathroom shaver socket is the usual way - can be installed in Zone 2
over the basins if you like.

http://electrical.theiet.org/wiring-...-701/index.cfm

"Shaver supply units
The minimum degree of protection for equipment installed in zones 1 and
2 is IPX4, or IPX5 where water jets are likely to be used for cleaning
purposes. An exception to this requirement is a shaver supply unit
complying with BS EN 61558-2-5 which, although it does not meet the
requirements of IP4X, is permitted in zone 2 but must be located where
direct spray from showers is unlikely. This type of shaver supply unit
is the only type that is permitted in a bathroom or shower room."


Thanks very much Tim. So this would imply that in the cupboard would be treated as zone 1 (likening it to under the bath but does not need tool to get to) so I couldn't have a socket in there for the spa bath but could have an IPx4 or greater switch [eg a light switch]) I could have the shaver sockets in the cupboard for the toothbrushes though?

Also it doesn't seem to give a zone for the sink area. I have seen something that suggests best practice is 60 cm diameter above the basin should be classed as zone 1.

Is this correct?

thanks again

Lee.

On 03/09/2017 08:39, wrote:
Hi all

I am doing our bathroom up and we are having a cupboard with a couple
sinks on top. The kids want to get electric tooth brushes so am
wondering what my options are for providing power to the sink area
for then to plug their toothbrushes in.

The normal solution is an isolated (i.e. transformer type) shaver socket.

I assume there is no way of putting a socket on the wall between the
sinks? Would putting it in the cupboard below the sinks be an
option?

Only if its 3m or more from the edge of zone 2! Sonly only very large
bathrooms need apply.

Also, I am fitting a spa bath. It has an IP55 box underneath to wire
the pumps up so I plan to run the power from here to a socket
somewhere. Can I put the socket for this in the cupboard too or
should it be outside of the bathroom?

If the space under the bath is not generally accessible (or only
accessible using a tool) then it counts as "outside the zones" and you
can install the socket (or probably more appropriately) a switched fused
connection unit there.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 03/09/2017 10:47, wrote:

Also it doesn't seem to give a zone for the sink area. I have seen something that suggests best practice is 60 cm diameter above the basin should be classed as zone 1.

Is this correct?


No.

Sinks do not have zones.

You see them drawn on certain websites and on the instructions for light
fittings.

No zone exists.

--
Adam

On 03/09/2017 10:47, wrote:

Bathroom shaver socket is the usual way - can be installed in Zone
2 over the basins if you like.

http://electrical.theiet.org/wiring-...-701/index.cfm



"Shaver supply units
The minimum degree of protection for equipment installed in zones 1
and 2 is IPX4, or IPX5 where water jets are likely to be used for
cleaning purposes. An exception to this requirement is a shaver
supply unit complying with BS EN 61558-2-5 which, although it does
not meet the requirements of IP4X, is permitted in zone 2 but must
be located where direct spray from showers is unlikely. This type
of shaver supply unit is the only type that is permitted in a
bathroom or shower room."


Thanks very much Tim. So this would imply that in the cupboard would
be treated as zone 1 (likening it to under the bath but does not need
tool to get to) so I couldn't have a socket in there for the spa bath
but could have an IPx4 or greater switch [eg a light switch]) I
could have the shaver sockets in the cupboard for the toothbrushes
though?

What zone is the cupboard in? If its outside the zones, then normal
accessories (except sockets) are ok. Shaver sockets are ok even in zone
2 allowing for the limitations mentioned by Tim above.

Also it doesn't seem to give a zone for the sink area. I have seen
something that suggests best practice is 60 cm diameter above the
basin should be classed as zone 1.

Is this correct?

The zones extend away from the bath or shower, the sink itself does not
not create its own zone. There are a few general rules that apply like
using appropriate fittings for the location etc and a bit of common
sense; so positioning accessories where they won't be splashed etc.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 03/09/17 10:47, wrote:
Thanks very much Tim. So this would imply that in the cupboard would be treated as zone 1 (likening it to under the bath but does not need tool to get to) so I couldn't have a socket in there for the spa bath but could have an IPx4 or greater switch [eg a light switch]) I could have the shaver sockets in the cupboard for the toothbrushes though?


You said "toothbrush" - so why not use the universal solution of a
shaver socket?

On 03/09/2017 08:39, wrote:
Hi all

I am doing our bathroom up and we are having a cupboard with a couple sinks on top. The kids want to get electric tooth brushes so am wondering what my options are for providing power to the sink area for then to plug their toothbrushes in.

I assume there is no way of putting a socket on the wall between the sinks? Would putting it in the cupboard below the sinks be an option?

Also, I am fitting a spa bath. It has an IP55 box underneath to wire the pumps up so I plan to run the power from here to a socket somewhere. Can I put the socket for this in the cupboard too or should it be outside of the bathroom?

Thanks in advance all

Lee.

As others have said, a shaver socket is the usual solution.

However, presumably only the toothbrushes' chargers require mains - not
the toothbrushes themselves? Modern re-chargeable toothbrushes run for
many days on one charge - so the charger doesn't *need* to be in the
bathroom. The kids could charge them when required in their bedrooms.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

Thanks all. Especially for the shaver socket tip. I had previously assumed the only difference between them and sockets was dual voltage


The shaver socket on the wall would work best but we have a small splashback and then huge mirror above the sinks so only place would be between the sinks and just off worktop level which seems a bit dodgy to me? So...

Looks like best option is shaver sockets in the cupboard below the sinks.

In terms of the spa bath then I guess running a feed to the cupboard and installing a ipx4 or better switch to switch it off (or maybe one of those dual pole things that we use to isolate the extractor fan) and then run this to the bath with a waterproof junction box under the bath for extra safety.

Sound ok?

So... Last 2 questions.
1. The bath has the metal framing connected to one of the motors via an earth lead. However the earth from the mains connection doesn't seem to be connected to it. I would have expected to see an earth coming out of the junction box to connect to the frame. Any thoughts?
2. I plan to cut into the upstairs ring main to feed this bathroom. Not a spur buy essentially extending the ring. Any issues with this?

Thanks again for all your help

Lee.

On 04/09/2017 08:31, wrote:

Thanks all. Especially for the shaver socket tip. I had previously
assumed the only difference between them and sockets was dual voltage


Note that there are two types of shaver socket. The transformer based
ones that are suitable for bathrooms (and usually offer dual voltage)
and the non transformer based ones that are not suitable for bathrooms.

The shaver socket on the wall would work best but we have a small
splashback and then huge mirror above the sinks so only place would
be between the sinks and just off worktop level which seems a bit
dodgy to me? So...

Looks like best option is shaver sockets in the cupboard below the
sinks.

Another option is a shaver socket built into an over mirror based light
fitting.

In terms of the spa bath then I guess running a feed to the cupboard
and installing a ipx4 or better switch to switch it off (or maybe one
of those dual pole things that we use to isolate the extractor fan)
and then run this to the bath with a waterproof junction box under
the bath for extra safety.

Sound ok?

Yup you can have a remote switch for the bath feed if you want. You
could place the switched fused connection unit in the cupboard, and then
have that feed either a junction box or flex outlet the bath if you want.

So... Last 2 questions. 1. The bath has the metal framing connected
to one of the motors via an earth lead. However the earth from the
mains connection doesn't seem to be connected to it. I would have
expected to see an earth coming out of the junction box to connect to
the frame. Any thoughts?

I am not totally clear on exactly what setup you have here, so I will
answer the more general questions...

If the motor units are double insulated (has the double square logo[1])
then they do not need an earth connection. However you would normally
wire the connection point such that one is available in case the motor
were changed later and the new one needed one. If needs be, the earth
connection can be made of in a spare non connected terminal block.

[1] http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...l_Glossary#1-9

If the motors do require an earth, then the earth of the circuit feeding
them should be included into the supplementary bonding in the bathroom.

The metal frame of the bath itself is typically not connected to
anything outside of the room itself, and hence not capable of
introducing any potential into the room. As a result it does not need
including in the EQ bonding.

See http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...ng_and_Bonding

2. I plan to cut into the upstairs ring main
to feed this bathroom. Not a spur buy essentially extending the ring.
Any issues with this?

No that's fine. Note the comments above about including its earth in the
bonding for the room.




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 04/09/17 08:31, wrote:
Thanks all. Especially for the shaver socket tip. I had previously assumed the only difference between them and sockets was dual voltage

No.

They run the output from a transformer (built in) and without any
connection to earth. This means if you touch either contact and you are
standing on a wet floor, there's no complete circuit for the current to go.

This is slightly different to the yellow 110V "site transformers" used
by builders - that has a transformer from 230V to 110V, but with an
earthed centre tapping. This gives (relative to earth):

55-0-55V

so the worst shock possible to ground is 55V.


The shaver socket on the wall would work best but we have a small splashback and then huge mirror above the sinks so only place would be between the sinks and just off worktop level which seems a bit dodgy to me? So...

Looks like best option is shaver sockets in the cupboard below the sinks.

In terms of the spa bath then I guess running a feed to the cupboard and installing a ipx4 or better switch to switch it off (or maybe one of those dual pole things that we use to isolate the extractor fan) and then run this to the bath with a waterproof junction box under the bath for extra safety.

Sound ok?

So... Last 2 questions.
1. The bath has the metal framing connected to one of the motors via an earth lead. However the earth from the mains connection doesn't seem to be connected to it. I would have expected to see an earth coming out of the junction box to connect to the frame. Any thoughts?
2. I plan to cut into the upstairs ring main to feed this bathroom. Not a spur buy essentially extending the ring. Any issues with this?

Thanks again for all your help

Lee.

Sorry for the delayed response. Thanks very much both. Very informative. Wiki article explained a lot. I will have a look at the motors later today but now I know what I am looking for.

Thanks

Lee.

Sorry for the delayed response. Thanks very much both. Very informative. Wiki article explained a lot. I will have a look at the motors later today but now I know what I am looking for.

Thanks

Lee.

On Monday, 4 September 2017 10:22:49 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 04/09/2017 08:31, wrote:

Thanks all. Especially for the shaver socket tip. I had previously
assumed the only difference between them and sockets was dual voltage


Note that there are two types of shaver socket. The transformer based
ones that are suitable for bathrooms (and usually offer dual voltage)
and the non transformer based ones that are not suitable for bathrooms.

The shaver socket on the wall would work best but we have a small
splashback and then huge mirror above the sinks so only place would
be between the sinks and just off worktop level which seems a bit
dodgy to me? So...

Looks like best option is shaver sockets in the cupboard below the
sinks.

Another option is a shaver socket built into an over mirror based light
fitting.

In terms of the spa bath then I guess running a feed to the cupboard
and installing a ipx4 or better switch to switch it off (or maybe one
of those dual pole things that we use to isolate the extractor fan)
and then run this to the bath with a waterproof junction box under
the bath for extra safety.

Sound ok?

Yup you can have a remote switch for the bath feed if you want. You
could place the switched fused connection unit in the cupboard, and then
have that feed either a junction box or flex outlet the bath if you want.

So... Last 2 questions. 1. The bath has the metal framing connected
to one of the motors via an earth lead. However the earth from the
mains connection doesn't seem to be connected to it. I would have
expected to see an earth coming out of the junction box to connect to
the frame. Any thoughts?

I am not totally clear on exactly what setup you have here, so I will
answer the more general questions...

If the motor units are double insulated (has the double square logo[1])
then they do not need an earth connection. However you would normally
wire the connection point such that one is available in case the motor
were changed later and the new one needed one. If needs be, the earth
connection can be made of in a spare non connected terminal block.

[1] http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...l_Glossary#1-9

If the motors do require an earth, then the earth of the circuit feeding
them should be included into the supplementary bonding in the bathroom.

The metal frame of the bath itself is typically not connected to
anything outside of the room itself, and hence not capable of
introducing any potential into the room. As a result it does not need
including in the EQ bonding.

See http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...ng_and_Bonding

2. I plan to cut into the upstairs ring main
to feed this bathroom. Not a spur buy essentially extending the ring.
Any issues with this?

No that's fine. Note the comments above about including its earth in the
bonding for the room.

Connecting the bath frame to the motor frame does make it able to introduce 240v in case of fault. I would earth it & feed it from an RCD or include it in equipotential bonding.


NT

On 09/09/2017 12:14, wrote:
On Monday, 4 September 2017 10:22:49 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 04/09/2017 08:31, wrote:

Thanks all. Especially for the shaver socket tip. I had
previously assumed the only difference between them and sockets
was dual voltage

Note that there are two types of shaver socket. The transformer
based ones that are suitable for bathrooms (and usually offer dual
voltage) and the non transformer based ones that are not suitable
for bathrooms.

The shaver socket on the wall would work best but we have a
small splashback and then huge mirror above the sinks so only
place would be between the sinks and just off worktop level which
seems a bit dodgy to me? So...

Looks like best option is shaver sockets in the cupboard below
the sinks.

Another option is a shaver socket built into an over mirror based
light fitting.

In terms of the spa bath then I guess running a feed to the
cupboard and installing a ipx4 or better switch to switch it off
(or maybe one of those dual pole things that we use to isolate
the extractor fan) and then run this to the bath with a
waterproof junction box under the bath for extra safety.

Sound ok?

Yup you can have a remote switch for the bath feed if you want.
You could place the switched fused connection unit in the cupboard,
and then have that feed either a junction box or flex outlet the
bath if you want.

So... Last 2 questions. 1. The bath has the metal framing
connected to one of the motors via an earth lead. However the
earth from the mains connection doesn't seem to be connected to
it. I would have expected to see an earth coming out of the
junction box to connect to the frame. Any thoughts?

I am not totally clear on exactly what setup you have here, so I
will answer the more general questions...

If the motor units are double insulated (has the double square
logo[1]) then they do not need an earth connection. However you
would normally wire the connection point such that one is available
in case the motor were changed later and the new one needed one. If
needs be, the earth connection can be made of in a spare non
connected terminal block.

[1] http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...l_Glossary#1-9

If the motors do require an earth, then the earth of the circuit
feeding them should be included into the supplementary bonding in
the bathroom.

The metal frame of the bath itself is typically not connected to
anything outside of the room itself, and hence not capable of
introducing any potential into the room. As a result it does not
need including in the EQ bonding.

See http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...ng_and_Bonding

2. I plan to cut into the upstairs ring main to feed this
bathroom. Not a spur buy essentially extending the ring. Any
issues with this?

No that's fine. Note the comments above about including its earth
in the bonding for the room.

Connecting the bath frame to the motor frame does make it able to
introduce 240v in case of fault. I would earth it & feed it from an
RCD or include it in equipotential bonding.

If the motor is class I, then its supply earth should be included in the
bonding, and the motor casing itself does not need independent
connection. If its class II, then its case is not an extraneous
conductive path, and so bonding the bath would actually increase the
risk rather than lower it.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Saturday, 9 September 2017 13:28:12 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 09/09/2017 12:14, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 4 September 2017 10:22:49 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 04/09/2017 08:31, wrote:

Thanks all. Especially for the shaver socket tip. I had
previously assumed the only difference between them and sockets
was dual voltage

Note that there are two types of shaver socket. The transformer
based ones that are suitable for bathrooms (and usually offer dual
voltage) and the non transformer based ones that are not suitable
for bathrooms.

The shaver socket on the wall would work best but we have a
small splashback and then huge mirror above the sinks so only
place would be between the sinks and just off worktop level which
seems a bit dodgy to me? So...

Looks like best option is shaver sockets in the cupboard below
the sinks.

Another option is a shaver socket built into an over mirror based
light fitting.

In terms of the spa bath then I guess running a feed to the
cupboard and installing a ipx4 or better switch to switch it off
(or maybe one of those dual pole things that we use to isolate
the extractor fan) and then run this to the bath with a
waterproof junction box under the bath for extra safety.

Sound ok?

Yup you can have a remote switch for the bath feed if you want.
You could place the switched fused connection unit in the cupboard,
and then have that feed either a junction box or flex outlet the
bath if you want.

So... Last 2 questions. 1. The bath has the metal framing
connected to one of the motors via an earth lead. However the
earth from the mains connection doesn't seem to be connected to
it. I would have expected to see an earth coming out of the
junction box to connect to the frame. Any thoughts?

I am not totally clear on exactly what setup you have here, so I
will answer the more general questions...

If the motor units are double insulated (has the double square
logo[1]) then they do not need an earth connection. However you
would normally wire the connection point such that one is available
in case the motor were changed later and the new one needed one. If
needs be, the earth connection can be made of in a spare non
connected terminal block.

[1] http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...l_Glossary#1-9

If the motors do require an earth, then the earth of the circuit
feeding them should be included into the supplementary bonding in
the bathroom.

The metal frame of the bath itself is typically not connected to
anything outside of the room itself, and hence not capable of
introducing any potential into the room. As a result it does not
need including in the EQ bonding.

See http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...ng_and_Bonding

2. I plan to cut into the upstairs ring main to feed this
bathroom. Not a spur buy essentially extending the ring. Any
issues with this?

No that's fine. Note the comments above about including its earth
in the bonding for the room.

Connecting the bath frame to the motor frame does make it able to
introduce 240v in case of fault. I would earth it & feed it from an
RCD or include it in equipotential bonding.

If the motor is class I, then its supply earth should be included in the
bonding, and the motor casing itself does not need independent
connection.

If its class II, then its case is not an extraneous
conductive path,

Whether the motor can conduct to the bath or water depends on construction details. Class 2 certainly does not preclude it. Class 2 construction is no more a panacea than the other approaches.

and so bonding the bath would actually increase the
risk rather than lower it.

bonding it to what? bathroom-wide equipotential bonding or the motor case?


NT

Hi all

I have had another look at the setup based on my new knowledge. There are 2 motors connected into a waterproof junction box. Looking at the junction box the incoming earth is connected to the earth going to both motors. There is then an earth wire going from the base of one to the metal framing which the legs are attached to. The motors have screws coming out of the bottom with thick rubber washers on. These screws then fed through a metal board where they are bolted in place. This board is attached to the metal framing..

The motors have a label on them but no mention of class 1 or 2.

So... Judging from the about it sounds like I should be fine with wiring the mains into the junction box as normal. With the frame bonded to one motor and it in turn seems to be connected to the incoming earth.

On the junction box it has a label from manufacturers saying it is 2.1kW and needs a 16a fuse. Is this ok to be on the ring main I plan to extend and located as a switched fused inside the cupboard.

Thanks again all

Lee.

On Sunday, 10 September 2017 15:47:33 UTC+1, wrote:
Hi all

I have had another look at the setup based on my new knowledge. There are 2 motors connected into a waterproof junction box. Looking at the junction box the incoming earth is connected to the earth going to both motors. There is then an earth wire going from the base of one to the metal framing which the legs are attached to. The motors have screws coming out of the bottom with thick rubber washers on. These screws then fed through a metal board where they are bolted in place. This board is attached to the metal framing.

The motors have a label on them but no mention of class 1 or 2.

So... Judging from the about it sounds like I should be fine with wiring the mains into the junction box as normal. With the frame bonded to one motor and it in turn seems to be connected to the incoming earth.

On the junction box it has a label from manufacturers saying it is 2.1kW and needs a 16a fuse. Is this ok to be on the ring main I plan to extend and located as a switched fused inside the cupboard.

Thanks again all

Lee.

So the pumps aren't class 2, and need treating as class 1. So you need either RCD or equipotential bonding.


NT

On 09/09/2017 18:11, wrote:

So... Last 2 questions. 1. The bath has the metal framing
connected to one of the motors via an earth lead. However
the earth from the mains connection doesn't seem to be
connected to it. I would have expected to see an earth coming
out of the junction box to connect to the frame. Any
thoughts?

I am not totally clear on exactly what setup you have here, so
I will answer the more general questions...

If the motor units are double insulated (has the double square
logo[1]) then they do not need an earth connection. However
you would normally wire the connection point such that one is
available in case the motor were changed later and the new one
needed one. If needs be, the earth connection can be made of in
a spare non connected terminal block.

[1]
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...l_Glossary#1-9

If the motors do require an earth, then the earth of the
circuit feeding them should be included into the supplementary
bonding in the bathroom.

The metal frame of the bath itself is typically not connected
to anything outside of the room itself, and hence not capable
of introducing any potential into the room. As a result it does
not need including in the EQ bonding.

See http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...ng_and_Bonding

2. I plan to cut into the upstairs ring main to feed this
bathroom. Not a spur buy essentially extending the ring. Any
issues with this?

No that's fine. Note the comments above about including its
earth in the bonding for the room.

Connecting the bath frame to the motor frame does make it able
to introduce 240v in case of fault. I would earth it & feed it
from an RCD or include it in equipotential bonding.

If the motor is class I, then its supply earth should be included
in the bonding, and the motor casing itself does not need
independent connection.

If its class II, then its case is not an extraneous conductive
path,

Whether the motor can conduct to the bath or water depends on
construction details.

Indeed.

Class 2 certainly does not preclude it. Class 2
construction is no more a panacea than the other approaches

Erm, no.

and so bonding the bath would actually increase the risk rather
than lower it.

bonding it to what? bathroom-wide equipotential bonding or the motor
case?

If the motor were class I, then they would be functionally equivalent.
If the motor is class II, then bonding the bath simply means its now an
extraneous conductive path where previously it was not.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sunday, 10 September 2017 23:52:29 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 09/09/2017 18:11, tabbypurr wrote:

So... Last 2 questions. 1. The bath has the metal framing
connected to one of the motors via an earth lead. However
the earth from the mains connection doesn't seem to be
connected to it. I would have expected to see an earth coming
out of the junction box to connect to the frame. Any
thoughts?

I am not totally clear on exactly what setup you have here, so
I will answer the more general questions...

If the motor units are double insulated (has the double square
logo[1]) then they do not need an earth connection. However
you would normally wire the connection point such that one is
available in case the motor were changed later and the new one
needed one. If needs be, the earth connection can be made of in
a spare non connected terminal block.

[1]
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...l_Glossary#1-9

If the motors do require an earth, then the earth of the
circuit feeding them should be included into the supplementary
bonding in the bathroom.

The metal frame of the bath itself is typically not connected
to anything outside of the room itself, and hence not capable
of introducing any potential into the room. As a result it does
not need including in the EQ bonding.

See http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...ng_and_Bonding

2. I plan to cut into the upstairs ring main to feed this
bathroom. Not a spur buy essentially extending the ring. Any
issues with this?

No that's fine. Note the comments above about including its
earth in the bonding for the room.

Connecting the bath frame to the motor frame does make it able
to introduce 240v in case of fault. I would earth it & feed it
from an RCD or include it in equipotential bonding.

If the motor is class I, then its supply earth should be included
in the bonding, and the motor casing itself does not need
independent connection.

If its class II, then its case is not an extraneous conductive
path,

Whether the motor can conduct to the bath or water depends on
construction details.

Indeed.

Class 2 certainly does not preclude it. Class 2
construction is no more a panacea than the other approaches

Erm, no.

and so bonding the bath would actually increase the risk rather
than lower it.

bonding it to what? bathroom-wide equipotential bonding or the motor
case?

If the motor were class I, then they would be functionally equivalent.
If the motor is class II, then bonding the bath simply means its now an
extraneous conductive path where previously it was not.

you certainly know how to be vague


NT

On 10/09/2017 15:47, wrote:
Hi all

I have had another look at the setup based on my new knowledge. There
are 2 motors connected into a waterproof junction box. Looking at the
junction box the incoming earth is connected to the earth going to
both motors. There is then an earth wire going from the base of one
to the metal framing which the legs are attached to. The motors have
screws coming out of the bottom with thick rubber washers on. These
screws then fed through a metal board where they are bolted in place.
This board is attached to the metal framing.

The motors have a label on them but no mention of class 1 or 2.

If the motors have an earth connection in their flex, then they are
class I. (generally if its metal cased and not marked as class II then
its best to assume class I)

So... Judging from the about it sounds like I should be fine with
wiring the mains into the junction box as normal. With the frame
bonded to one motor and it in turn seems to be connected to the
incoming earth.

So long as the earth of the circuit feeding the motors is included in
the rooms EQ bonding, then you don't need anything else. The protective
conductor feeding the motor itself will serve dual purpose as both earth
and bonding connection.

On the junction box it has a label from manufacturers saying it is
2.1kW and needs a 16a fuse. Is this ok to be on the ring main I plan
to extend and located as a switched fused inside the cupboard.

Its likely its an induction motor, and will have a high inrush current.
Hence the need for a higher rating of fuse than nominal[1] 10A that the
2.1kW rating would suggest.

It might be worth tracking down the manual for the motor if you can to
see if it actually specifies that the motor *must* have additional
protection from a 16A device, or whether it is just highlighting that
protection with a 13A fuse in a SFCU etc unlikely to hack it due to the
high inrush.

If it specifies that it must be protected at 16A device, then it will
make your task a little more interesting if you want to feed it from a
spur on a 32A ring circuit. You would then probably have to use a MCB,
or a HRC cartridge fuse in a suitable enclosure instead.


[1] Induction motors also tend to have non unity power factors, which
can increase the actual maximum current drawn.



--
Cheers,

John.

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On 11/09/2017 00:01, wrote:
On Sunday, 10 September 2017 23:52:29 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 09/09/2017 18:11, tabbypurr wrote:

So... Last 2 questions. 1. The bath has the metal framing
connected to one of the motors via an earth lead. However
the earth from the mains connection doesn't seem to be
connected to it. I would have expected to see an earth coming
out of the junction box to connect to the frame. Any
thoughts?

I am not totally clear on exactly what setup you have here, so
I will answer the more general questions...

If the motor units are double insulated (has the double square
logo[1]) then they do not need an earth connection. However
you would normally wire the connection point such that one is
available in case the motor were changed later and the new one
needed one. If needs be, the earth connection can be made of in
a spare non connected terminal block.

[1]
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...l_Glossary#1-9

If the motors do require an earth, then the earth of the
circuit feeding them should be included into the supplementary
bonding in the bathroom.

The metal frame of the bath itself is typically not connected
to anything outside of the room itself, and hence not capable
of introducing any potential into the room. As a result it does
not need including in the EQ bonding.

See http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...ng_and_Bonding

2. I plan to cut into the upstairs ring main to feed this
bathroom. Not a spur buy essentially extending the ring. Any
issues with this?

No that's fine. Note the comments above about including its
earth in the bonding for the room.

Connecting the bath frame to the motor frame does make it able
to introduce 240v in case of fault. I would earth it & feed it
from an RCD or include it in equipotential bonding.

If the motor is class I, then its supply earth should be included
in the bonding, and the motor casing itself does not need
independent connection.

If its class II, then its case is not an extraneous conductive
path,

Whether the motor can conduct to the bath or water depends on
construction details.

Indeed.

Class 2 certainly does not preclude it. Class 2
construction is no more a panacea than the other approaches

Erm, no.

and so bonding the bath would actually increase the risk rather
than lower it.

bonding it to what? bathroom-wide equipotential bonding or the motor
case?

If the motor were class I, then they would be functionally equivalent.
If the motor is class II, then bonding the bath simply means its now an
extraneous conductive path where previously it was not.

you certainly know how to be vague

I am sure Lee will ask if he is unsure.



--
Cheers,

John.

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On Sunday, September 3, 2017 at 8:39:24 AM UTC+1, wrote:
Hi all

I am doing our bathroom up and we are having a cupboard with a couple sinks on top. The kids want to get electric tooth brushes so am wondering what my options are for providing power to the sink area for then to plug their toothbrushes in.

I assume there is no way of putting a socket on the wall between the sinks? Would putting it in the cupboard below the sinks be an option?

Also, I am fitting a spa bath. It has an IP55 box underneath to wire the pumps up so I plan to run the power from here to a socket somewhere. Can I put the socket for this in the cupboard too or should it be outside of the bathroom?

Thanks in advance all

Lee.

Just get the cheap electric tooth brushes which use standard batteries. You'll thank me when the batteries in the uber expensive rechargeable toothbrushes die 5 minutes after the warranty is up.

On 11/09/2017 11:50, wrote:

Just get the cheap electric tooth brushes which use standard
batteries. You'll thank me when the batteries in the uber expensive
rechargeable toothbrushes die 5 minutes after the warranty is up.

+1

I use the cheapest Oral B. About ten quid from Amazon with replaceable
batteries. The brushing action is identical to many of the more
expensive rechargeable models. At that price it's no great problem to
replace them when they eventually die after a few years of use, usually
due to the switch failing.

Instead of using Duracells I use rechargeable 2300mAh AA's which give me
about 2 weeks between charges and are still recharging without problems
after several years use.

--
Mike Clarke

Thanks John.

There is no other bonding in the bathroom as all plumbing is plastic as it the bath.

Rather than a spur, I was going to break into ring on that floor and extend it to the bathroom. It is a bit of a pain as there isn't a straight forward way (that I can think of) to do it other than go to the nearest socket (bedroom across the landing) and split it there. Rather than have a junction box I was going to add an extra socket besides it to take feed back from the bathroom to rejoin the ring (if you see what I mean).

Will try and track down the installation manual for the bath and revert.

thanks again

Lee.

On Monday, 11 September 2017 17:51:11 UTC+1, wrote:
Thanks John.

There is no other bonding in the bathroom as all plumbing is plastic as it the bath.

Rather than a spur, I was going to break into ring on that floor and extend it to the bathroom. It is a bit of a pain as there isn't a straight forward way (that I can think of) to do it other than go to the nearest socket (bedroom across the landing) and split it there. Rather than have a junction box I was going to add an extra socket besides it to take feed back from the bathroom to rejoin the ring (if you see what I mean).

Will try and track down the installation manual for the bath and revert.

thanks again

Lee.

OK - I have managed to find an installation manual online but the electrical piece seems generic across the Duravit range. It says the following...

Circuit Breaker - In = 16A
RCCB I delta = 30 mA

Then for the instructions it says....

Lay a fixed feed cable for power supply:
- install seperate circuit breaker and residual current circuit breaker (RCCB) upstream
- connect all pole disconnector mains switch upstream located out-side specified protection zones (0-2)
- leave 3000mm of feed cable exposed

Lay equipotential bonding cables:
- leave 3000mm of cable exposed

The diagram shows zone 0 in bath; zone 1 above bath and zone 2 extends from bath 600mm

So... looking around the web I guess I would need a 16a version of one of these and locate it in the cupboard under the sinks? Assuming it is dual pole?

http://www.screwfix.com/p/bg-13a-swi...-rcd-fcu/20523

Any idea what it means by leave 3m of cable / feed cable exposed?

thanks

Lee.

On Mon, 11 Sep 2017 03:50:52 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Sunday, September 3, 2017 at 8:39:24 AM UTC+1, wrote:
Hi all

I am doing our bathroom up and we are having a cupboard with a couple sinks on top. The kids want to get electric tooth brushes so am wondering what my options are for providing power to the sink area for then to plug their toothbrushes in.

I assume there is no way of putting a socket on the wall between the sinks? Would putting it in the cupboard below the sinks be an option?

Also, I am fitting a spa bath. It has an IP55 box underneath to wire the pumps up so I plan to run the power from here to a socket somewhere. Can I put the socket for this in the cupboard too or should it be outside of the bathroom?

Thanks in advance all

Lee.

Just get the cheap electric tooth brushes which use standard batteries. You'll thank me when the batteries in the uber expensive rechargeable toothbrushes die 5 minutes after the warranty is up.

The latest generation of Oral B products contain lithium ion
batteries. Not before time - I never understood why I was paying a
premium price for an appliance containing an obsolete battery.

On 11/09/17 18:31, Scott wrote:
I never understood why I was paying a
premium price for an appliance containing an obsolete battery.

Profit

On Monday, 11 September 2017 11:50:55 UTC+1, wrote:

Just get the cheap electric tooth brushes which use standard batteries. You'll thank me when the batteries in the uber expensive rechargeable toothbrushes die 5 minutes after the warranty is up.

Did that years ago. It didn't last long, the waterproof seal wasn't really waterproof.

ISTR there being youtube vids on how to open sealed Oral-Bs & replace the battery.


NT

On 11/09/2017 18:26, wrote:
On Monday, 11 September 2017 17:51:11 UTC+1,
wrote:
Thanks John.

There is no other bonding in the bathroom as all plumbing is
plastic as it the bath.

If all the circuits that enter the room are protected with a 30mA trip
RCD (and the house main EQ bonding is to spec) then you could take
advantage of the 17th edition relaxation that allows EQ bonding to be
omitted in these cases.

Rather than a spur, I was going to break into ring on that floor
and extend it to the bathroom. It is a bit of a pain as there
isn't a straight forward way (that I can think of) to do it other
than go to the nearest socket (bedroom across the landing) and
split it there. Rather than have a junction box I was going to add
an extra socket besides it to take feed back from the bathroom to
rejoin the ring (if you see what I mean).

IME Its possible to use crimps or wago terminals in the back of a socket
box to join into a ring if you want - so it can all be done at one
double socket location.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...ket_extensions

Having said that, you may be better off putting your additional switched
protection adjacent to the socket and running a spur from that to the
spa (there is no real advantage to the ring being extended to and from
the spa)

(is it just a pump or a heater as well? 2+ kW seems like a bit much for
just a pump)

Will try and track down the installation manual for the bath and
revert.

OK - I have managed to find an installation manual online but the
electrical piece seems generic across the Duravit range. It says the
following...

Circuit Breaker - In = 16A RCCB I delta = 30 mA

Then for the instructions it says....

Lay a fixed feed cable for power supply: - install seperate circuit
breaker and residual current circuit breaker (RCCB) upstream -

Does your source circuit already include a RCD? (if so, no need for
another if the trip threshold on the existing one is = 30mA)

connect all pole disconnector mains switch upstream located out-side
specified protection zones (0-2) - leave 3000mm of feed cable
exposed

Under a bath also counts as outside of the zones if you need a tool to
access the space.

Lay equipotential bonding cables: - leave 3000mm of cable exposed

The diagram shows zone 0 in bath; zone 1 above bath and zone 2
extends from bath 600mm

So... looking around the web I guess I would need a 16a version of
one of these and locate it in the cupboard under the sinks? Assuming
it is dual pole?

http://www.screwfix.com/p/bg-13a-swi...-rcd-fcu/20523

As I mentioned before, its the "16A version" that makes it more
difficult since anything designed to be protected by a BS1361 fuse is
not going to work in this situation if you read the manufacturers spec
to the letter.

(the reality is a 13A fuse is probably more than adequate[1], but they
are likely attempting to make their instructions applicable Europe wide
where 16A circuits are common and UK style fusing close to appliances is
not).

Any idea what it means by leave 3m of cable / feed cable exposed?

No, that seems a bit odd.

[1] Unless all that 2.1kW rally is just down to one big motor, where the
inrush could take out a 13A fuse. (in which case a C10 MCB would
probably be a good match)


--
Cheers,

John.

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\================================================= ================/

On 11/09/2017 17:51, wrote:
Rather than a spur, I was going to break into ring on that floor and extend it to the bathroom. It is a bit of a pain as there isn't a straight forward way (that I can think of) to do it other than go to the nearest socket (bedroom across the landing) and split it there. Rather than have a junction box I was going to add an extra socket besides it to take feed back from the bathroom to rejoin the ring (if you see what I mean).

You could just run one cable as a spur off the back of the bedroom
socket instead of extending the ring. Assuming that the back box is deep
enough to accommodate the extra cable.

The fuse or breaker doesn't have to be at the start of the spur, it can
be in the bathroom cupboard.

--
Mike Clarke

Thanks both

The bath has 2 pumps and one includes a heater to keep the water warm during operation.

On Wednesday, 13 September 2017 07:55:07 UTC+1, wrote:
Thanks both

The bath has 2 pumps and one includes a heater to keep the water warm during operation.

Hi All,

I have now heard back from Durait. Looks like 13amp will be fine thankfully. So from the above, I think I can now use one of these for the bath

https://www.toolstation.com/shop/Ele...r+White/p45636

and put it in the cupboards below the sinks. I seem to recall from above that I needn't break the ring and just have this (and the 2 shaver sockets) as a spur from a double socket in an adjacent room. Is it worth wiring the 2 shaver sockets off this RCB too or just have a junction box there (IP4x in case) and wire all 3 off the feed?

Thanks again all

Lee.

On 21/09/2017 20:15, wrote:
On Wednesday, 13 September 2017 07:55:07 UTC+1,
wrote:
Thanks both

The bath has 2 pumps and one includes a heater to keep the water
warm during operation.

Hi All,

I have now heard back from Durait. Looks like 13amp will be fine
thankfully.

Good, I had a feeling that might be the case.

So from the above, I think I can now use one of these
for the bath

https://www.toolstation.com/shop/Ele...r+White/p45636

Sorry if I missed it, but did you mention if the socket circuit already
has RCD protection in the CU?

and put it in the cupboards below the sinks. I seem to recall from
above that I needn't break the ring and just have this (and the 2
shaver sockets) as a spur from a double socket in an adjacent room.

Yup pretty much.

Is it worth wiring the 2 shaver sockets off this RCB too or just have
a junction box there (IP4x in case) and wire all 3 off the feed?

Well you could do either... however doing the former treats the whole
installation as if you had a fused spur from the ring. Hence you can add
any number of things downstream of the spur.

(Going with the second option means you are treating the feed from the
circuit as an unfused spur, and hence would normally need to keep in
mind the total load you could potentially place on the single spur
cable. In this case however your ~2kW load plus to shaver sockets will
be well below any load you would need to worry about)


--
Cheers,

John.

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---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Thanks John

I checked the consumer unit. There is a bank of MCBs and then a RCCB then another bank and another RCCB. I assume the RCCB protects the bank of MCBs to the left of it. Is that correct? If so, the bank of MCBs to the left are...
2xB6
2xB16
2xB32
1xB40

The RCCB is 80A 30mA. 80a seems a bit odd given the total of the MCBs is much more. Unless it only protects the nearest 1 or 2 MCBs?

Thanks again for your help

Lee.

Thanks John

I checked the consumer unit. There is a bank of MCBs and then a RCCB then another bank and another RCCB. I assume the RCCB protects the bank of MCBs to the left of it. Is that correct? If so, the bank of MCBs to the left are...
2xB6
2xB16
2xB32
1xB40

The RCCB is 80A 30mA. 80a seems a bit odd given the total of the MCBs is much more. Unless it only protects the nearest 1 or 2 MCBs?

Thanks again for your help

Lee.

On Sunday, 24 September 2017 08:36:44 UTC+1, wrote:
Thanks John

I checked the consumer unit. There is a bank of MCBs and then a RCCB then another bank and another RCCB. I assume the RCCB protects the bank of MCBs to the left of it. Is that correct? If so, the bank of MCBs to the left are...
2xB6
2xB16
2xB32
1xB40

The RCCB is 80A 30mA. 80a seems a bit odd given the total of the MCBs is much more. Unless it only protects the nearest 1 or 2 MCBs?

Thanks again for your help

Lee.

diversity


NT

On 24/09/2017 08:36, wrote:

Thanks John

I checked the consumer unit. There is a bank of MCBs and then a RCCB
then another bank and another RCCB.

That sounds like a typical 17th edition style split load CU, where you
have all circuits protected by RCDs, but they are spread out over a pair
of devices, so you maintain some discrimination. For example a layout like:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...th5-5Fixed.JPG

I assume the RCCB protects the
bank of MCBs to the left of it. Is that correct?

Generally that seems to be the most common arrangement - although it
does depend on the brand of CU. Some place the main switch or RCD on the
left of the protected block of devices.

If so, the bank of
MCBs to the left are... 2xB6 2xB16 2xB32 1xB40

It sounds like that there are no non RCD protected circuits (as you
might find with a so called "high integrity" CU with provision for some
non protected circuits that can be fitted with MCBs or RCBOs:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...hIntegrity.JPG

The implication of this is that you *do not* need any further RCD
protection for the spa pumps / heaters.

The RCCB is 80A 30mA. 80a seems a bit odd given the total of the MCBs
is much more. Unless it only protects the nearest 1 or 2 MCBs?

No it will protect all of them. Finding that the maximum load on all
circuits when summed is greater than the rating of some upstream device
is not uncommon, but allowances can be made for diversity in the loads.
More detail he

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Diversity


--
Cheers,

John.

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Thanks very much John. Great explanation. Yes the picture us very similar to my arrangement.

I was thinking... Adding the RCD although an extra £10 more than a switched fused spur I thought it would give extra protection so might as well do the RCD one. Am I fooling myself

Thanks again.
Lee.

On 24/09/2017 15:06, wrote:
Thanks very much John. Great explanation. Yes the picture us very
similar to my arrangement.

I was thinking... Adding the RCD although an extra £10 more than a
switched fused spur I thought it would give extra protection so might
as well do the RCD one. Am I fooling myself


Probably...

One might argue in the relatively rare case of one of the RCDs failing
(that manifests as a non trip in a situation where it should have), then
having a second one will serve as a backup. For all other (more typical)
situations it serves no real benefit.

(and should you get a trip for any reason, you potentially have devices
to reset since you will get no discrimination between the cascaded devices)

--
Cheers,

John.

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