Hi all

I am doing our bathroom up and we are having a cupboard with a couple sinks on top. The kids want to get electric tooth brushes so am wondering what my options are for providing power to the sink area for then to plug their toothbrushes in.

I assume there is no way of putting a socket on the wall between the sinks? Would putting it in the cupboard below the sinks be an option?

Also, I am fitting a spa bath. It has an IP55 box underneath to wire the pumps up so I plan to run the power from here to a socket somewhere. Can I put the socket for this in the cupboard too or should it be outside of the bathroom?

Thanks in advance all

Lee.

On 03/09/17 08:39, wrote:
Hi all

I am doing our bathroom up and we are having a cupboard with a couple sinks on top. The kids want to get electric tooth brushes so am wondering what my options are for providing power to the sink area for then to plug their toothbrushes in.

I assume there is no way of putting a socket on the wall between the sinks? Would putting it in the cupboard below the sinks be an option?

Also, I am fitting a spa bath. It has an IP55 box underneath to wire the pumps up so I plan to run the power from here to a socket somewhere. Can I put the socket for this in the cupboard too or should it be outside of the bathroom?

Thanks in advance all

Lee.


Bathroom shaver socket is the usual way - can be installed in Zone 2
over the basins if you like.

http://electrical.theiet.org/wiring-...-701/index.cfm

"Shaver supply units
The minimum degree of protection for equipment installed in zones 1 and
2 is IPX4, or IPX5 where water jets are likely to be used for cleaning
purposes. An exception to this requirement is a shaver supply unit
complying with BS EN 61558-2-5 which, although it does not meet the
requirements of IP4X, is permitted in zone 2 but must be located where
direct spray from showers is unlikely. This type of shaver supply unit
is the only type that is permitted in a bathroom or shower room."

Bathroom shaver socket is the usual way - can be installed in Zone 2
over the basins if you like.

http://electrical.theiet.org/wiring-...-701/index.cfm

"Shaver supply units
The minimum degree of protection for equipment installed in zones 1 and
2 is IPX4, or IPX5 where water jets are likely to be used for cleaning
purposes. An exception to this requirement is a shaver supply unit
complying with BS EN 61558-2-5 which, although it does not meet the
requirements of IP4X, is permitted in zone 2 but must be located where
direct spray from showers is unlikely. This type of shaver supply unit
is the only type that is permitted in a bathroom or shower room."


Thanks very much Tim. So this would imply that in the cupboard would be treated as zone 1 (likening it to under the bath but does not need tool to get to) so I couldn't have a socket in there for the spa bath but could have an IPx4 or greater switch [eg a light switch]) I could have the shaver sockets in the cupboard for the toothbrushes though?

Also it doesn't seem to give a zone for the sink area. I have seen something that suggests best practice is 60 cm diameter above the basin should be classed as zone 1.

Is this correct?

thanks again

Lee.

On 03/09/2017 10:47, wrote:

Also it doesn't seem to give a zone for the sink area. I have seen something that suggests best practice is 60 cm diameter above the basin should be classed as zone 1.

Is this correct?


No.

Sinks do not have zones.

You see them drawn on certain websites and on the instructions for light
fittings.

No zone exists.

--
Adam

On 03/09/2017 10:47, wrote:

Bathroom shaver socket is the usual way - can be installed in Zone
2 over the basins if you like.

http://electrical.theiet.org/wiring-...-701/index.cfm



"Shaver supply units
The minimum degree of protection for equipment installed in zones 1
and 2 is IPX4, or IPX5 where water jets are likely to be used for
cleaning purposes. An exception to this requirement is a shaver
supply unit complying with BS EN 61558-2-5 which, although it does
not meet the requirements of IP4X, is permitted in zone 2 but must
be located where direct spray from showers is unlikely. This type
of shaver supply unit is the only type that is permitted in a
bathroom or shower room."


Thanks very much Tim. So this would imply that in the cupboard would
be treated as zone 1 (likening it to under the bath but does not need
tool to get to) so I couldn't have a socket in there for the spa bath
but could have an IPx4 or greater switch [eg a light switch]) I
could have the shaver sockets in the cupboard for the toothbrushes
though?

What zone is the cupboard in? If its outside the zones, then normal
accessories (except sockets) are ok. Shaver sockets are ok even in zone
2 allowing for the limitations mentioned by Tim above.

Also it doesn't seem to give a zone for the sink area. I have seen
something that suggests best practice is 60 cm diameter above the
basin should be classed as zone 1.

Is this correct?

The zones extend away from the bath or shower, the sink itself does not
not create its own zone. There are a few general rules that apply like
using appropriate fittings for the location etc and a bit of common
sense; so positioning accessories where they won't be splashed etc.


--
Cheers,

John.

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\================================================= ================/

On 03/09/17 10:47, wrote:
Thanks very much Tim. So this would imply that in the cupboard would be treated as zone 1 (likening it to under the bath but does not need tool to get to) so I couldn't have a socket in there for the spa bath but could have an IPx4 or greater switch [eg a light switch]) I could have the shaver sockets in the cupboard for the toothbrushes though?


You said "toothbrush" - so why not use the universal solution of a
shaver socket?

On 03/09/2017 08:39, wrote:
Hi all

I am doing our bathroom up and we are having a cupboard with a couple
sinks on top. The kids want to get electric tooth brushes so am
wondering what my options are for providing power to the sink area
for then to plug their toothbrushes in.

The normal solution is an isolated (i.e. transformer type) shaver socket.

I assume there is no way of putting a socket on the wall between the
sinks? Would putting it in the cupboard below the sinks be an
option?

Only if its 3m or more from the edge of zone 2! Sonly only very large
bathrooms need apply.

Also, I am fitting a spa bath. It has an IP55 box underneath to wire
the pumps up so I plan to run the power from here to a socket
somewhere. Can I put the socket for this in the cupboard too or
should it be outside of the bathroom?

If the space under the bath is not generally accessible (or only
accessible using a tool) then it counts as "outside the zones" and you
can install the socket (or probably more appropriately) a switched fused
connection unit there.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 03/09/2017 08:39, wrote:
Hi all

I am doing our bathroom up and we are having a cupboard with a couple sinks on top. The kids want to get electric tooth brushes so am wondering what my options are for providing power to the sink area for then to plug their toothbrushes in.

I assume there is no way of putting a socket on the wall between the sinks? Would putting it in the cupboard below the sinks be an option?

Also, I am fitting a spa bath. It has an IP55 box underneath to wire the pumps up so I plan to run the power from here to a socket somewhere. Can I put the socket for this in the cupboard too or should it be outside of the bathroom?

Thanks in advance all

Lee.

As others have said, a shaver socket is the usual solution.

However, presumably only the toothbrushes' chargers require mains - not
the toothbrushes themselves? Modern re-chargeable toothbrushes run for
many days on one charge - so the charger doesn't *need* to be in the
bathroom. The kids could charge them when required in their bedrooms.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

Thanks all. Especially for the shaver socket tip. I had previously assumed the only difference between them and sockets was dual voltage


The shaver socket on the wall would work best but we have a small splashback and then huge mirror above the sinks so only place would be between the sinks and just off worktop level which seems a bit dodgy to me? So...

Looks like best option is shaver sockets in the cupboard below the sinks.

In terms of the spa bath then I guess running a feed to the cupboard and installing a ipx4 or better switch to switch it off (or maybe one of those dual pole things that we use to isolate the extractor fan) and then run this to the bath with a waterproof junction box under the bath for extra safety.

Sound ok?

So... Last 2 questions.
1. The bath has the metal framing connected to one of the motors via an earth lead. However the earth from the mains connection doesn't seem to be connected to it. I would have expected to see an earth coming out of the junction box to connect to the frame. Any thoughts?
2. I plan to cut into the upstairs ring main to feed this bathroom. Not a spur buy essentially extending the ring. Any issues with this?

Thanks again for all your help

Lee.

On 04/09/2017 08:31, wrote:

Thanks all. Especially for the shaver socket tip. I had previously
assumed the only difference between them and sockets was dual voltage


Note that there are two types of shaver socket. The transformer based
ones that are suitable for bathrooms (and usually offer dual voltage)
and the non transformer based ones that are not suitable for bathrooms.

The shaver socket on the wall would work best but we have a small
splashback and then huge mirror above the sinks so only place would
be between the sinks and just off worktop level which seems a bit
dodgy to me? So...

Looks like best option is shaver sockets in the cupboard below the
sinks.

Another option is a shaver socket built into an over mirror based light
fitting.

In terms of the spa bath then I guess running a feed to the cupboard
and installing a ipx4 or better switch to switch it off (or maybe one
of those dual pole things that we use to isolate the extractor fan)
and then run this to the bath with a waterproof junction box under
the bath for extra safety.

Sound ok?

Yup you can have a remote switch for the bath feed if you want. You
could place the switched fused connection unit in the cupboard, and then
have that feed either a junction box or flex outlet the bath if you want.

So... Last 2 questions. 1. The bath has the metal framing connected
to one of the motors via an earth lead. However the earth from the
mains connection doesn't seem to be connected to it. I would have
expected to see an earth coming out of the junction box to connect to
the frame. Any thoughts?

I am not totally clear on exactly what setup you have here, so I will
answer the more general questions...

If the motor units are double insulated (has the double square logo[1])
then they do not need an earth connection. However you would normally
wire the connection point such that one is available in case the motor
were changed later and the new one needed one. If needs be, the earth
connection can be made of in a spare non connected terminal block.

[1] http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...l_Glossary#1-9

If the motors do require an earth, then the earth of the circuit feeding
them should be included into the supplementary bonding in the bathroom.

The metal frame of the bath itself is typically not connected to
anything outside of the room itself, and hence not capable of
introducing any potential into the room. As a result it does not need
including in the EQ bonding.

See http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...ng_and_Bonding

2. I plan to cut into the upstairs ring main
to feed this bathroom. Not a spur buy essentially extending the ring.
Any issues with this?

No that's fine. Note the comments above about including its earth in the
bonding for the room.




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Monday, 4 September 2017 10:22:49 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 04/09/2017 08:31, wrote:

Thanks all. Especially for the shaver socket tip. I had previously
assumed the only difference between them and sockets was dual voltage


Note that there are two types of shaver socket. The transformer based
ones that are suitable for bathrooms (and usually offer dual voltage)
and the non transformer based ones that are not suitable for bathrooms.

The shaver socket on the wall would work best but we have a small
splashback and then huge mirror above the sinks so only place would
be between the sinks and just off worktop level which seems a bit
dodgy to me? So...

Looks like best option is shaver sockets in the cupboard below the
sinks.

Another option is a shaver socket built into an over mirror based light
fitting.

In terms of the spa bath then I guess running a feed to the cupboard
and installing a ipx4 or better switch to switch it off (or maybe one
of those dual pole things that we use to isolate the extractor fan)
and then run this to the bath with a waterproof junction box under
the bath for extra safety.

Sound ok?

Yup you can have a remote switch for the bath feed if you want. You
could place the switched fused connection unit in the cupboard, and then
have that feed either a junction box or flex outlet the bath if you want.

So... Last 2 questions. 1. The bath has the metal framing connected
to one of the motors via an earth lead. However the earth from the
mains connection doesn't seem to be connected to it. I would have
expected to see an earth coming out of the junction box to connect to
the frame. Any thoughts?

I am not totally clear on exactly what setup you have here, so I will
answer the more general questions...

If the motor units are double insulated (has the double square logo[1])
then they do not need an earth connection. However you would normally
wire the connection point such that one is available in case the motor
were changed later and the new one needed one. If needs be, the earth
connection can be made of in a spare non connected terminal block.

[1] http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...l_Glossary#1-9

If the motors do require an earth, then the earth of the circuit feeding
them should be included into the supplementary bonding in the bathroom.

The metal frame of the bath itself is typically not connected to
anything outside of the room itself, and hence not capable of
introducing any potential into the room. As a result it does not need
including in the EQ bonding.

See http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...ng_and_Bonding

2. I plan to cut into the upstairs ring main
to feed this bathroom. Not a spur buy essentially extending the ring.
Any issues with this?

No that's fine. Note the comments above about including its earth in the
bonding for the room.

Connecting the bath frame to the motor frame does make it able to introduce 240v in case of fault. I would earth it & feed it from an RCD or include it in equipotential bonding.


NT

On 09/09/2017 12:14, wrote:
On Monday, 4 September 2017 10:22:49 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 04/09/2017 08:31, wrote:

Thanks all. Especially for the shaver socket tip. I had
previously assumed the only difference between them and sockets
was dual voltage

Note that there are two types of shaver socket. The transformer
based ones that are suitable for bathrooms (and usually offer dual
voltage) and the non transformer based ones that are not suitable
for bathrooms.

The shaver socket on the wall would work best but we have a
small splashback and then huge mirror above the sinks so only
place would be between the sinks and just off worktop level which
seems a bit dodgy to me? So...

Looks like best option is shaver sockets in the cupboard below
the sinks.

Another option is a shaver socket built into an over mirror based
light fitting.

In terms of the spa bath then I guess running a feed to the
cupboard and installing a ipx4 or better switch to switch it off
(or maybe one of those dual pole things that we use to isolate
the extractor fan) and then run this to the bath with a
waterproof junction box under the bath for extra safety.

Sound ok?

Yup you can have a remote switch for the bath feed if you want.
You could place the switched fused connection unit in the cupboard,
and then have that feed either a junction box or flex outlet the
bath if you want.

So... Last 2 questions. 1. The bath has the metal framing
connected to one of the motors via an earth lead. However the
earth from the mains connection doesn't seem to be connected to
it. I would have expected to see an earth coming out of the
junction box to connect to the frame. Any thoughts?

I am not totally clear on exactly what setup you have here, so I
will answer the more general questions...

If the motor units are double insulated (has the double square
logo[1]) then they do not need an earth connection. However you
would normally wire the connection point such that one is available
in case the motor were changed later and the new one needed one. If
needs be, the earth connection can be made of in a spare non
connected terminal block.

[1] http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...l_Glossary#1-9

If the motors do require an earth, then the earth of the circuit
feeding them should be included into the supplementary bonding in
the bathroom.

The metal frame of the bath itself is typically not connected to
anything outside of the room itself, and hence not capable of
introducing any potential into the room. As a result it does not
need including in the EQ bonding.

See http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...ng_and_Bonding

2. I plan to cut into the upstairs ring main to feed this
bathroom. Not a spur buy essentially extending the ring. Any
issues with this?

No that's fine. Note the comments above about including its earth
in the bonding for the room.

Connecting the bath frame to the motor frame does make it able to
introduce 240v in case of fault. I would earth it & feed it from an
RCD or include it in equipotential bonding.

If the motor is class I, then its supply earth should be included in the
bonding, and the motor casing itself does not need independent
connection. If its class II, then its case is not an extraneous
conductive path, and so bonding the bath would actually increase the
risk rather than lower it.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 04/09/17 08:31, wrote:
Thanks all. Especially for the shaver socket tip. I had previously assumed the only difference between them and sockets was dual voltage

No.

They run the output from a transformer (built in) and without any
connection to earth. This means if you touch either contact and you are
standing on a wet floor, there's no complete circuit for the current to go.

This is slightly different to the yellow 110V "site transformers" used
by builders - that has a transformer from 230V to 110V, but with an
earthed centre tapping. This gives (relative to earth):

55-0-55V

so the worst shock possible to ground is 55V.


The shaver socket on the wall would work best but we have a small splashback and then huge mirror above the sinks so only place would be between the sinks and just off worktop level which seems a bit dodgy to me? So...

Looks like best option is shaver sockets in the cupboard below the sinks.

In terms of the spa bath then I guess running a feed to the cupboard and installing a ipx4 or better switch to switch it off (or maybe one of those dual pole things that we use to isolate the extractor fan) and then run this to the bath with a waterproof junction box under the bath for extra safety.

Sound ok?

So... Last 2 questions.
1. The bath has the metal framing connected to one of the motors via an earth lead. However the earth from the mains connection doesn't seem to be connected to it. I would have expected to see an earth coming out of the junction box to connect to the frame. Any thoughts?
2. I plan to cut into the upstairs ring main to feed this bathroom. Not a spur buy essentially extending the ring. Any issues with this?

Thanks again for all your help

Lee.

Sorry for the delayed response. Thanks very much both. Very informative. Wiki article explained a lot. I will have a look at the motors later today but now I know what I am looking for.

Thanks

Lee.

Sorry for the delayed response. Thanks very much both. Very informative. Wiki article explained a lot. I will have a look at the motors later today but now I know what I am looking for.

Thanks

Lee.

On Sunday, September 3, 2017 at 8:39:24 AM UTC+1, wrote:
Hi all

I am doing our bathroom up and we are having a cupboard with a couple sinks on top. The kids want to get electric tooth brushes so am wondering what my options are for providing power to the sink area for then to plug their toothbrushes in.

I assume there is no way of putting a socket on the wall between the sinks? Would putting it in the cupboard below the sinks be an option?

Also, I am fitting a spa bath. It has an IP55 box underneath to wire the pumps up so I plan to run the power from here to a socket somewhere. Can I put the socket for this in the cupboard too or should it be outside of the bathroom?

Thanks in advance all

Lee.

Just get the cheap electric tooth brushes which use standard batteries. You'll thank me when the batteries in the uber expensive rechargeable toothbrushes die 5 minutes after the warranty is up.

On 11/09/2017 11:50, wrote:

Just get the cheap electric tooth brushes which use standard
batteries. You'll thank me when the batteries in the uber expensive
rechargeable toothbrushes die 5 minutes after the warranty is up.

+1

I use the cheapest Oral B. About ten quid from Amazon with replaceable
batteries. The brushing action is identical to many of the more
expensive rechargeable models. At that price it's no great problem to
replace them when they eventually die after a few years of use, usually
due to the switch failing.

Instead of using Duracells I use rechargeable 2300mAh AA's which give me
about 2 weeks between charges and are still recharging without problems
after several years use.

--
Mike Clarke

On Mon, 11 Sep 2017 03:50:52 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Sunday, September 3, 2017 at 8:39:24 AM UTC+1, wrote:
Hi all

I am doing our bathroom up and we are having a cupboard with a couple sinks on top. The kids want to get electric tooth brushes so am wondering what my options are for providing power to the sink area for then to plug their toothbrushes in.

I assume there is no way of putting a socket on the wall between the sinks? Would putting it in the cupboard below the sinks be an option?

Also, I am fitting a spa bath. It has an IP55 box underneath to wire the pumps up so I plan to run the power from here to a socket somewhere. Can I put the socket for this in the cupboard too or should it be outside of the bathroom?

Thanks in advance all

Lee.

Just get the cheap electric tooth brushes which use standard batteries. You'll thank me when the batteries in the uber expensive rechargeable toothbrushes die 5 minutes after the warranty is up.

The latest generation of Oral B products contain lithium ion
batteries. Not before time - I never understood why I was paying a
premium price for an appliance containing an obsolete battery.

On 11/09/17 18:31, Scott wrote:
I never understood why I was paying a
premium price for an appliance containing an obsolete battery.

Profit

On Monday, 11 September 2017 11:50:55 UTC+1, wrote:

Just get the cheap electric tooth brushes which use standard batteries. You'll thank me when the batteries in the uber expensive rechargeable toothbrushes die 5 minutes after the warranty is up.

Did that years ago. It didn't last long, the waterproof seal wasn't really waterproof.

ISTR there being youtube vids on how to open sealed Oral-Bs & replace the battery.


NT