On 30/01/2017 08:32, RJH wrote:
On 29/01/2017 20:42, Rod Speed wrote:
NY wrote
Rod Speed wrote
NY wrote
Maurice wrote

When the temperature is lower than this, the fridge freezer will
use more energy to maintain the right temperature.

How can it take *more* energy to run a freezer if the ambient
temperature is lower and therefore there is less heat transfer from
the room to the freezer that the compressor needs to remove.

When the refrigerant doesnt work as well at that temp.

In terms of the amount of heat that can be carried away from the
freezer chamber per unit amount of refrigerant?

Yes, most obviously if the refrigerant goes gluggy at the lower
temps and doesnt work as well as a refrigerant at the lower temps.


Mmmm. Not sure I follow. Are you saying that, for gluggy refrigerant,
the compressor will draw more power at lower temperatures? Or it needs
to run for a longer period to achieve a given amount of cooling? Or
something else?


According to Beko:

"A warmer room would be more energy efficient for the appliance as the
motor spends less time getting up to temperature then it would in a
colder room"

--
Cheers, Rob

RJH wrote
Rod Speed wrote
NY wrote
Rod Speed wrote
NY wrote
Maurice wrote

When the temperature is lower than this, the fridge freezer will use
more energy to maintain the right temperature.

How can it take *more* energy to run a freezer if the ambient
temperature is lower and therefore there is less heat transfer from
the room to the freezer that the compressor needs to remove.

When the refrigerant doesnt work as well at that temp.

In terms of the amount of heat that can be carried away from the freezer
chamber per unit amount of refrigerant?

Yes, most obviously if the refrigerant goes gluggy at the lower
temps and doesnt work as well as a refrigerant at the lower temps.

Mmmm. Not sure I follow. Are you saying that, for gluggy refrigerant, the
compressor will draw more power at lower temperatures? Or it needs to run
for a longer period to achieve a given amount of cooling? Or something
else?

Doesnt cool properly even when running continuously, so
the contents dont get kept at the temperature you require
and start to thaw out. That is what happens when you use
the freezer at ambient temps too cold for it to work properly,
the contents arent kept at the low temp you require,
presumably because the power put into the compressor
ends up in the contents with the refrigerant too gluggy
and not evaporating properly to cool properly.

"RJH" wrote in message
news
On 30/01/2017 08:32, RJH wrote:
On 29/01/2017 20:42, Rod Speed wrote:
NY wrote
Rod Speed wrote
NY wrote
Maurice wrote

When the temperature is lower than this, the fridge freezer will
use more energy to maintain the right temperature.

How can it take *more* energy to run a freezer if the ambient
temperature is lower and therefore there is less heat transfer from
the room to the freezer that the compressor needs to remove.

When the refrigerant doesnt work as well at that temp.

In terms of the amount of heat that can be carried away from the
freezer chamber per unit amount of refrigerant?

Yes, most obviously if the refrigerant goes gluggy at the lower
temps and doesnt work as well as a refrigerant at the lower temps.


Mmmm. Not sure I follow. Are you saying that, for gluggy refrigerant,
the compressor will draw more power at lower temperatures? Or it needs
to run for a longer period to achieve a given amount of cooling? Or
something else?


According to Beko:

"A warmer room would be more energy efficient for the appliance as the
motor spends less time getting up to temperature then it would in a colder
room"

Sure, but not necessarily when the refrigerant isnt working properly
anymore because it can't work properly at those lower ambient temps.

On Sun, 29 Jan 2017 13:22:17 +0000, I wrote:

https://www.whitegoodshelp.co.uk/can...e-feezer-in-a-
garage/

Anyone know when the new refrigerant (the one that needs minimum 10oC
ambient) was first introduced - and why?

--
/\/\aurice
(Replace "nomail.afraid" by "bcs" to reply by email)

"Maurice" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 29 Jan 2017 13:22:17 +0000, I wrote:

https://www.whitegoodshelp.co.uk/can...e-feezer-in-a-
garage/

Anyone know when the new refrigerant (the one that needs minimum 10oC
ambient) was first introduced - and why?

Might it have been introduced because it is not freon-based so is less
harmful to the ozone layer if it is released when the fridge is scrapped?

On Tuesday, 28 February 2017 11:21:17 UTC, NY wrote:
"Maurice" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 29 Jan 2017 13:22:17 +0000, I wrote:

https://www.whitegoodshelp.co.uk/can...e-feezer-in-a-
garage/

Anyone know when the new refrigerant (the one that needs minimum 10oC
ambient) was first introduced - and why?

Might it have been introduced because it is not freon-based so is less
harmful to the ozone layer if it is released when the fridge is scrapped?

There is a much simpler explanation for fridge/freezer problem:

Suppose the fridge thermostat is set to 4degC and as discussed above
there is no separate freezer thermostat. If the ambient is a steady 2degC
for example the compressor will never turn on. The freezer will
eventually warm up to 2degC. This will happen regardless of how good
the refrigerant is.

I have a small John lewis "own brand" chest freezer in the shed which
works very nicely in cold weather. I think it was rated for use
down to 10degC which was the best I could find. I do try to keep the
shed just above 0degC in the winter though to protect various liquids
from freezing.
John

wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 28 February 2017 11:21:17 UTC, NY wrote:
"Maurice" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 29 Jan 2017 13:22:17 +0000, I wrote:

https://www.whitegoodshelp.co.uk/can...e-feezer-in-a-
garage/

Anyone know when the new refrigerant (the one that needs minimum 10oC
ambient) was first introduced - and why?

Might it have been introduced because it is not freon-based so is less
harmful to the ozone layer if it is released when the fridge is scrapped?

There is a much simpler explanation for fridge/freezer problem:

Suppose the fridge thermostat is set to 4degC and as discussed above
there is no separate freezer thermostat. If the ambient is a steady 2degC
for example the compressor will never turn on. The freezer will
eventually warm up to 2degC. This will happen regardless of how good
the refrigerant is.

I have to admit that I thought people were having a laugh when they said
that there was only one thermostat. It seems blindingly obvious that you
need two, to monitor and maintain two very different temperatures. Having
just one thermostat, with the temperature of one compartment being assumed
to correlate with that in the one whose temperature is monitored, seems a
recipe for disaster. How much is a thermostat and a couple of valves to
direct refrigerant to either one or both compartments? A pound or so?

Some fridges require you to keep the house almost at normal room temperature
while you are away on holiday, which is very expensive when there are no
people (only fridge/freezers!) that need to be kept warm.

We have two separate devices - a fridge (only) and a freezer (only). And yet
for some reason they have a minimum room temperature of about 10 deg C -
right only the borderline of what we'd set our house thermostat for while we
were away over Christmas. Given that the shared-thermostat excuse can't
apply in our case, I wonder why such a high minimum is imposed. Could that
be a non-Freon refrigerant?

As it happens, our house never dropped below about 11 deg C, even though (as
far as we are aware) the heating never came on. It would have been a
different story if our house had been detached rather than terrace (which
gains a bit of heat from neighbours) or if the outside temperature had gone
well below freezing. But we'll need to watch what we set the min temp to
while we are away. just in case...

Is it not simply a temperature thing? Ie its a bit like you ask why nobody
has managed to make a freezer that goes below what we call absolute zero.
the reason is that you need to dump the heat inside somewhere and you can't
do that.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Maurice" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 29 Jan 2017 13:22:17 +0000, I wrote:

https://www.whitegoodshelp.co.uk/can...e-feezer-in-a-
garage/

Anyone know when the new refrigerant (the one that needs minimum 10oC
ambient) was first introduced - and why?

--
/\/\aurice
(Replace "nomail.afraid" by "bcs" to reply by email)

Why doesn't car air conditioning suffer in the same way?

On Tue, 28 Feb 2017 04:39:46 -0800, jrwalliker wrote:

Suppose the fridge thermostat is set to 4degC and as discussed above
there is no separate freezer thermostat.

Our new Indesit has a freezer temperature sensor, but none for the
fridge compartment (which receives the remainder of the cold air passed
into the freezer).

It also has an 'ambient' sensor, which operates the same on/off switch
in the thermostat unit* as does the freezer's sensor.

(* Situated just under the front top edge of the whole unit.
Because of that I tried leaving the fridge door slightly ajar, so that
the warmth from the interior light might leak out and influence the
'ambient' sensor.
Result: The compressor started up at 7oC instead of 10oC, and the
freezer's temp went down to the required -18oC! )

The danger with the 10oC minimum is that those who are not aware of it
will be ignorant of the possibility that items in the freezer
compartment will be thawing out during cold snaps, with the possibility
of damage to the 'frozen' food.
(Thawing out in colder weather sounds ridiculous, does it not?)



--
/\/\aurice
(Replace "nomail.afraid" by "bcs" to reply by email)

On 28/02/2017 11:13, Maurice wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jan 2017 13:22:17 +0000, I wrote:

https://www.whitegoodshelp.co.uk/can...e-feezer-in-a-
garage/

Anyone know when the new refrigerant (the one that needs minimum 10oC
ambient) was first introduced - and why?

Around the time of the withdrawal of CFCs and the modern central heating
system. You have to read the rating plate very carefully to choose a
fridge/freezer that will work below about 6C. It is extremely bad news
for a freezer as the entire contents unfreeze and spoil.

I have previously posted a link to how to read the plate codes. My
brother in law was caught out by exactly this problem one cold winter.
Freezer in garage cold weather but freezer thawed out completely = MESS!

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 28/02/2017 20:55, DerbyBorn wrote:
Why doesn't car air conditioning suffer in the same way?

Different choice of working fluid designed for operating in the outdoors
rather than a centrally heated home. The modern choices of refridgerant
mix have a narrower working range than the old CFCs.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 02/02/2017 19:26, RJH wrote:
On 30/01/2017 08:32, RJH wrote:
On 29/01/2017 20:42, Rod Speed wrote:
NY wrote
Rod Speed wrote
NY wrote
Maurice wrote

When the temperature is lower than this, the fridge freezer will
use more energy to maintain the right temperature.

How can it take *more* energy to run a freezer if the ambient
temperature is lower and therefore there is less heat transfer from
the room to the freezer that the compressor needs to remove.

When the refrigerant doesnt work as well at that temp.

In terms of the amount of heat that can be carried away from the
freezer chamber per unit amount of refrigerant?

Yes, most obviously if the refrigerant goes gluggy at the lower
temps and doesnt work as well as a refrigerant at the lower temps.


Mmmm. Not sure I follow. Are you saying that, for gluggy refrigerant,
the compressor will draw more power at lower temperatures? Or it needs
to run for a longer period to achieve a given amount of cooling? Or
something else?


According to Beko:

"A warmer room would be more energy efficient for the appliance as the
motor spends less time getting up to temperature then it would in a
colder room"


But this doesn't take into account the fact that everything is at a
lower temperature in the first place. Therefore less energy needed to
keep it cold.

For posterity, I tested my Beko FXS5043 over 30 days. Room temperature
range 8 to 11C, Freezer temperature range -20 to -24C, consumption over
30 days: 11.2kW.

So, about half Which?'s test result, and 70% of Beko's claim. If it's
not cheaper to run in lower temperatures, there must be another variable.

It's used daily, but I never put hot food in, and don't use it to freeze
food often - just bread and the occasional, maybe weekly, cooked food.
So maybe I'm a light user.

--
Cheers, Rob

On 11/03/2017 20:26, RJH wrote:
On 02/02/2017 19:26, RJH wrote:
On 30/01/2017 08:32, RJH wrote:
On 29/01/2017 20:42, Rod Speed wrote:
NY wrote
Rod Speed wrote
NY wrote
Maurice wrote

When the temperature is lower than this, the fridge freezer will
use more energy to maintain the right temperature.

How can it take *more* energy to run a freezer if the ambient
temperature is lower and therefore there is less heat transfer from
the room to the freezer that the compressor needs to remove.

When the refrigerant doesnt work as well at that temp.

In terms of the amount of heat that can be carried away from the
freezer chamber per unit amount of refrigerant?

Yes, most obviously if the refrigerant goes gluggy at the lower
temps and doesnt work as well as a refrigerant at the lower temps.


Mmmm. Not sure I follow. Are you saying that, for gluggy refrigerant,
the compressor will draw more power at lower temperatures? Or it needs
to run for a longer period to achieve a given amount of cooling? Or
something else?


According to Beko:

"A warmer room would be more energy efficient for the appliance as the
motor spends less time getting up to temperature then it would in a
colder room"


But this doesn't take into account the fact that everything is at a
lower temperature in the first place. Therefore less energy needed to
keep it cold.

For posterity, I tested my Beko FXS5043 over 30 days. Room temperature
range 8 to 11C, Freezer temperature range -20 to -24C, consumption over
30 days: 11.2kW.

So, about half Which?'s test result, and 70% of Beko's claim. If it's
not cheaper to run in lower temperatures, there must be another variable.

It's used daily, but I never put hot food in, and don't use it to freeze
food often - just bread and the occasional, maybe weekly, cooked food.
So maybe I'm a light user.


And the final word to Beko, after I sent my results:

"Apologies for the previous email, upon further investigation on this, I
can confirm the lower the ambient temperature is, the less the
compressor runs. Your findings that you stated, do make sense."


--
Cheers, Rob