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| UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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Freezer and ambient temperature
I have just bought a Frigidaire upright freezer. Reading the booklet I
discover it is only intended to operate in ambient temperatures between 16degC and 32degC. I have never seen such a restriction before and have used freezers in unheated undercover outside spaces - garages and utility rooms etc. without trouble. Should I have known of this restriction? First can anyone explain just what happens if I run it in a colder space? Secondly should the shop I bought it from (Currys) have told me this before I bought it? And should they accept it back and refund the full price? The unit was delivered, unpacked and positioned by their agents. Apart from opening the door to find the operating booklet nothing has been done to the unit. It hasn't been plugged in. Thirdly is there a way of overcoming the low temperature ambient problem. I need an upright freezer and it has to go in a utility room merely kept frost free. Fourthly are there any upright freezers available that will run in 0degC ambient? It doesn't seem much to ask as many people must use freezers in these conditions - for example in kitchens when they go on holiday. BTW Currys telephone Customer Services said, in other words,"Oh dear. The manufacturers won't honour the guarantee.Talk to the branch.". The branch said "It'll work, but the manufacturers probably won't honour the guarantee if they know.". They did offer the take back the unit but only at a reduced price "because it's your fault.". Edgar |
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Edgar Iredale wrote:
I have just bought a Frigidaire upright freezer. Reading the booklet I discover it is only intended to operate in ambient temperatures between 16degC and 32degC. I have never seen such a restriction before and have used freezers in unheated undercover outside spaces - garages and utility rooms etc. without trouble. Should I have known of this restriction? First can anyone explain just what happens if I run it in a colder space? Secondly should the shop I bought it from (Currys) have told me this before I bought it? And should they accept it back and refund the full price? The unit was delivered, unpacked and positioned by their agents. Apart from opening the door to find the operating booklet nothing has been done to the unit. It hasn't been plugged in. Thirdly is there a way of overcoming the low temperature ambient problem. I need an upright freezer and it has to go in a utility room merely kept frost free. Fourthly are there any upright freezers available that will run in 0degC ambient? It doesn't seem much to ask as many people must use freezers in these conditions - for example in kitchens when they go on holiday. BTW Currys telephone Customer Services said, in other words,"Oh dear. The manufacturers won't honour the guarantee.Talk to the branch.". The branch said "It'll work, but the manufacturers probably won't honour the guarantee if they know.". They did offer the take back the unit but only at a reduced price "because it's your fault.". Edgar Most freezers won't work in cold unheated places. e.g. relative of mine put expensive make of chest freezer in barn, it didn't work in winter. They are heat pumps and therefore there is a minimum between the ambient and freezer chamber temp. 32C sounds a little marginal though. It got up to nearly that last summer in my utilty room. presumably the one you've got just melts when it gets that hot. |
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#5
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"Edgar Iredale" wrote in message
... I have just bought a Frigidaire upright freezer. Reading the booklet I discover it is only intended to operate in ambient temperatures between 16degC and 32degC. They did offer the take back the unit but only at a reduced price "because it's your fault.". Edgar Well I'd have a word with your local CAB and then trading standards. If you get no joy, tell 'em you told the salesman that it was for use in a garage, and no mention was made of the minumum temp requirements, their bods that came to install it made no mention of the minimum temp, and there was no info to this effect clearly stated on the unit when you bought it. All my experiences with the Dixons group lead me to believe they'll try and ignore your rights as a customer, so moan as much as you can and you might get somewhere. Good luck! |
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"Edgar Iredale" wrote in message ... Rob Morley wrote: In article , "Edgar Iredale" lid says... I have just bought a Frigidaire upright freezer. Reading the booklet I discover it is only intended to operate in ambient temperatures between edit How many people make sure their kitchens stay at or above 16degC in mid winter while they are away enjoying their winter sun break? My unheated kitchen gets so cold in the winter (below 10degC) I have to fool my breadmaker with a pot of boiling water before it will start ! Jeremy |
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L Reid wrote:
"Edgar Iredale" wrote in message ... I have just bought a Frigidaire upright freezer. Reading the booklet I discover it is only intended to operate in ambient temperatures between 16degC and 32degC. They did offer the take back the unit but only at a reduced price "because it's your fault.". Edgar Well I'd have a word with your local CAB and then trading standards. If you get no joy, tell 'em you told the salesman that it was for use in a garage, and no mention was made of the minumum temp requirements, their bods that came to install it made no mention of the minimum temp, and there was no info to this effect clearly stated on the unit when you bought it. All my experiences with the Dixons group lead me to believe they'll try and ignore your rights as a customer, so moan as much as you can and you might get somewhere. Good luck! Thanks. I'm considering those options. Trouble is I didn't tell them it was to be used in a garage as it didn't seem an unusual requirement. Nevertheless I think the temperature restriction should have been made clear as some kitchens go colder that 16degC. Ours does sometimes. The other trouble is that I do need a freezer to go in that location. Edgar |
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brugnospamsia wrote:
8------- How many people make sure their kitchens stay at or above 16degC in mid winter while they are away enjoying their winter sun break? My unheated kitchen gets so cold in the winter (below 10degC) I have to fool my breadmaker with a pot of boiling water before it will start ! Jeremy I'll tell my wife that tip although she doesn't seem to have trouble so long as I remember to close the back door. Edgar |
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#9
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In message , brugnospamsia
writes My unheated kitchen gets so cold in the winter (below 10degC) I have to fool my breadmaker with a pot of boiling water before it will start ! Heh, heh, my kitchen too, been down to 3 or 4 C in recent weeks, fortunately the bread maker has a 1hr warm up period before it starts making. -- bof at bof dot me dot uk |
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"Edgar Iredale" wrote in message ... I have just bought a Frigidaire upright freezer. Reading the booklet I discover it is only intended to operate in ambient temperatures between 16degC and 32degC. I have never seen such a restriction before and have used freezers in unheated undercover outside spaces - garages and utility rooms etc. without trouble. Should I have known of this restriction? It is a normal restriction on freezers sold for domestic use. I have known of it for a long time. I have no idea whether there is any reason that you should have known or not. First can anyone explain just what happens if I run it in a colder space? The temperature regulation does not work properly. Secondly should the shop I bought it from (Currys) have told me this before I bought it? I can see no reason why they should have drawn that restriction to your attention any more than, say, that you should stand it with the top uppermost. We have not reached the stage of America, where consumers can sue if they are not told every little detail, usually in the form of large placards. And should they accept it back and refund the full price? It is your choice to use the device in a manner not intended by the manufacturer, who designed it for use in a domestic kitchen, where a minimum temperature of 16C is not an unreasonable assumption. .... Thirdly is there a way of overcoming the low temperature ambient problem. .... Ignore it, as you have done in the past. The freezers you have used before would have had exactly the same restriction. If they have run without you noticing anything, this one will do just as well as they did. Fourthly are there any upright freezers available that will run in 0degC ambient? SFAIK, not from suppliers of domestic kitchen equipment. Colin Bignell |
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nightjar wrote:
"Edgar Iredale" wrote in message ... I have just bought a Frigidaire upright freezer. Reading the booklet I discover it is only intended to operate in ambient temperatures between 16degC and 32degC. I have never seen such a restriction before and have used freezers in unheated undercover outside spaces - garages and utility rooms etc. without trouble. Should I have known of this restriction? It is a normal restriction on freezers sold for domestic use. I have known of it for a long time. I have no idea whether there is any reason that you should have known or not. Are you in the trade? I'd be surprised if it was common knowledge. First can anyone explain just what happens if I run it in a colder space? The temperature regulation does not work properly. I should have added "in detail". I've since discovered that some fridge/freezers suffer this problem and that in their case there are good reasons I can understand for it - the freezer is controlled by the fridge thermostat and the internals freeze up preventing circulation of the cooling air flow. However I don't know what really is supposed to go wrong with a plain freezer. Does the motor seize up because its grease/oil hardens? Does the refrigerant freeze? Or is it a problem of condensation and freezing in the case insulation? ..... Secondly should the shop I bought it from (Currys) have told me this before I bought it? I can see no reason why they should have drawn that restriction to your attention any more than, say, that you should stand it with the top uppermost. We have not reached the stage of America, where consumers can sue if they are not told every little detail, usually in the form of large placards. And should they accept it back and refund the full price? It is your choice to use the device in a manner not intended by the manufacturer, who designed it for use in a domestic kitchen, where a minimum temperature of 16C is not an unreasonable assumption. Putting a freezer somewhere below 16C is not unusual. Currys are well aware that many people put freezers in garages and other cold places. So I think that an ambient temperature requirement of over 16C should have been pointed out one way or another. I don't maintain my house at 16C when I'm away, just frost free. ... Thirdly is there a way of overcoming the low temperature ambient problem. ... Ignore it, as you have done in the past. The freezers you have used before would have had exactly the same restriction. If they have run without you noticing anything, this one will do just as well as they did. Yes. I'm tempted but my previous freezers didn't have the restriction, at least it wasn't mentioned in the paperwork, but perhaps things have changed in the 14 or so years since I last bought one - different motors, insulation, refrigerants, controls, etc. Fourthly are there any upright freezers available that will run in 0degC ambient? SFAIK, not from suppliers of domestic kitchen equipment. That's what I thought so I'll probably accept the freezer and try to find DIY methods to keep it working if they are needed. And that's why it would be good to know just exactly what the problem with low ambient temperatures really is. Colin Bignell Thanks for your comments. Edgar |
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#12
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"Edgar Iredale" wrote in message ... nightjar wrote: That's what I thought so I'll probably accept the freezer and try to find DIY methods to keep it working if they are needed. And that's why it would be good to know just exactly what the problem with low ambient temperatures really is. I had a freezer running out in the garage while the temperature dropped below zero. It seized solid and the compressor wouldn't run at all. After the temperature rose it would run again. Hardly a representative sample, I know, but his might be one of the effects you were asking after. It's possible things have got worse since a move to "greener" refrigerant fluids, I suppose. -- Bob Mannix (anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not) |
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#13
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"Bob Mannix" wrote in message ... "Edgar Iredale" wrote in message ... nightjar wrote: That's what I thought so I'll probably accept the freezer and try to find DIY methods to keep it working if they are needed. And that's why it would be good to know just exactly what the problem with low ambient temperatures really is. I had a freezer running out in the garage while the temperature dropped below zero. It seized solid and the compressor wouldn't run at all. After the temperature rose it would run again. Hardly a representative sample, I know, but his might be one of the effects you were asking after. It's possible things have got worse since a move to "greener" refrigerant fluids, I suppose. This is all the Whirlpool FAQ site has to say: Will a freezer work properly if it is very cold or hot in my garage? You must have the temperature set properly. Temperatures should not go below 40°F or hotter than 100°F for proper operation. If temperatures are lower than 40°F your thermostat may not allow the product to turn on based on colder than normal temperatures. The warmer the ambient temperature is (above 100°F) the more the product will run, and it will be less efficient. |
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#14
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"Edgar Iredale" wrote in message
... I have just bought a Frigidaire upright freezer. Reading the booklet I discover it is only intended to operate in ambient temperatures between 16degC and 32degC. I have never seen such a restriction before and have used freezers in unheated undercover outside spaces - garages and utility rooms etc. without trouble. Should I have known of this restriction? First can anyone explain just what happens if I run it in a colder space? Secondly should the shop I bought it from (Currys) have told me this before I bought it? And should they accept it back and refund the full price? The unit was delivered, unpacked and positioned by their agents. Apart from opening the door to find the operating booklet nothing has been done to the unit. It hasn't been plugged in. Thirdly is there a way of overcoming the low temperature ambient problem. I need an upright freezer and it has to go in a utility room merely kept frost free. Fourthly are there any upright freezers available that will run in 0degC ambient? It doesn't seem much to ask as many people must use freezers in these conditions - for example in kitchens when they go on holiday. BTW Currys telephone Customer Services said, in other words,"Oh dear. The manufacturers won't honour the guarantee.Talk to the branch.". The branch said "It'll work, but the manufacturers probably won't honour the guarantee if they know.". They did offer the take back the unit but only at a reduced price "because it's your fault.". I thought it was quite common knowledge that fridges/freezers don't work in cold places, fridges usually being the worst. You can get freezers that work in low temperatures my friend recently got a chest freezer as a replacement in his shed and it copes to -10C. The place he bought it from (not a big shed) knew the model to choose, based on location. Don't know if this applies to fridges as well. |
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Ian_m wrote:
8----- I thought it was quite common knowledge that fridges/freezers don't work in cold places, fridges usually being the worst. You can get freezers that work in low temperatures my friend recently got a chest freezer as a replacement in his shed and it copes to -10C. The place he bought it from (not a big shed) knew the model to choose, based on location. Don't know if this applies to fridges as well. Not to me it wasn't. Maybe I'm too cut off not having had a telly for the last 20 years. After I started moaning Currys said that chest freezers might do. Unfortunately I haven't space for one and the convenience of getting at things so easily with an upright is important. Thanks Edgar |
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#16
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"bof" wrote in message ... In message , brugnospamsia writes My unheated kitchen gets so cold in the winter (below 10degC) I have to fool my breadmaker with a pot of boiling water before it will start ! Heh, heh, my kitchen too, been down to 3 or 4 C in recent weeks, fortunately the bread maker has a 1hr warm up period before it starts making. My Morphy Richards didn't preheat and the manual only mentioned the "too hot to start another batch" warning. It made my brain hurt somewhat as I couldn't see why a computer-controlled thing with a heating element could be too COLD to start ! |
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#17
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Bob Mannix wrote:
"Bob Mannix" wrote in message ... "Edgar Iredale" wrote in message ... nightjar wrote: That's what I thought so I'll probably accept the freezer and try to find DIY methods to keep it working if they are needed. And that's why it would be good to know just exactly what the problem with low ambient temperatures really is. I had a freezer running out in the garage while the temperature dropped below zero. It seized solid and the compressor wouldn't run at all. After the temperature rose it would run again. Hardly a representative sample, I know, but his might be one of the effects you were asking after. It's possible things have got worse since a move to "greener" refrigerant fluids, I suppose. This is all the Whirlpool FAQ site has to say: Will a freezer work properly if it is very cold or hot in my garage? You must have the temperature set properly. Temperatures should not go below 40°F or hotter than 100°F for proper operation. If temperatures are lower than 40°F your thermostat may not allow the product to turn on based on colder than normal temperatures. The warmer the ambient temperature is (above 100°F) the more the product will run, and it will be less efficient. 40F / 5C I could cope with by turning up the anti frost heater. But 60F / 16C is a different thing altogether. Anyway thanks for that and for the story. I had heard that the motor might not run in too cold circumstances. Edgar |
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Edgar Iredale wrote:
nightjar wrote: It is a normal restriction on freezers sold for domestic use. I have known of it for a long time. I have no idea whether there is any reason that you should have known or not. Are you in the trade? I'd be surprised if it was common knowledge. Well, _I'm_ not in the trade, and I discovered it by reading the specifications in the sales literature I collected, when deciding which fridge and freezer to purchase. Sheila |
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Edgar Iredale wrote: 40F / 5C I could cope with by turning up the anti frost heater. But 60F / 16C is a different thing altogether. Anyway thanks for that and for the story. I had heard that the motor might not run in too cold circumstances. Edgar My kitchen easily drops below 16C everyday (at the moment) and the freeze keeps running (as far as I'm aware). This country runs on "reason" more than detail (unlike in the states) and I'm sure one could argue that 16C is an unreasonably high temperature in which to be expected to keep a freezer. The problem with FRIDGE-freezers is (usually) that the thermostat is set for the fridge and the freezer just gets more cooling to keep everything frozen. So, if your fridge is set to 5C and the ambient temp is 4C the compressor won't kick in and the frozen stuff will start to thaw. Now, with a freezer I would have thought all would be OK except for perhaps extreme temperatures but I'm no thermal engineer. |
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S Viemeister wrote:
Edgar Iredale wrote: nightjar wrote: It is a normal restriction on freezers sold for domestic use. I have known of it for a long time. I have no idea whether there is any reason that you should have known or not. Are you in the trade? I'd be surprised if it was common knowledge. Well, _I'm_ not in the trade, and I discovered it by reading the specifications in the sales literature I collected, when deciding which fridge and freezer to purchase. Sheila Thanks. At least you didn't know until you looked at the literature. That's some comfort to me. I just went into the shop and picked the one that would fit the space. Anyway I've decided to keep it and start using it. To start off I'll keep the temperature up just to make sure there's nothing wrong with it. After a week or two maybe spring will arrive. Edgar |
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#22
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Edgar Iredale wrote:
At least you didn't know until you looked at the literature. That's some comfort to me. I just went into the shop and picked the one that would fit the space. I had never given it a thought, until I noticed it in the various charts! Sheila |
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S Viemeister wrote:
Edgar Iredale wrote: At least you didn't know until you looked at the literature. That's some comfort to me. I just went into the shop and picked the one that would fit the space. I had never given it a thought, until I noticed it in the various charts! Sheila I've just been looking at specs for this Frigidaire FVE2199b on the net but haven't found a mention of the ambient requirement yet. What do you do about it? Keep the kitchen that warm all the time? At least your breadmaker won't need pre-heating. Edgar |
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"L Reid" wrote in message . uk... ...All my experiences with the Dixons group lead me to believe they'll try and ignore your rights as a customer, In this case, what rights? The product was suitable for the purpose for which it was sold, as a kitchen freezer, even if that was not the purpose for which it was bought. The supplier has already exceeded their legal duty by agreeing to accept the product back, less a handling fee. Colin Bignell |
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#25
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"Edgar Iredale" wrote in message ... nightjar wrote: "Edgar Iredale" wrote in message ... I have just bought a Frigidaire upright freezer. Reading the booklet I discover it is only intended to operate in ambient temperatures between 16degC and 32degC. I have never seen such a restriction before and have used freezers in unheated undercover outside spaces - garages and utility rooms etc. without trouble. Should I have known of this restriction? It is a normal restriction on freezers sold for domestic use. I have known of it for a long time. I have no idea whether there is any reason that you should have known or not. Are you in the trade? No. I'd be surprised if it was common knowledge. A straw poll at work today suggests that quite a few people know there is a reason not to use freezers outside, although not necessarily what that reason might be. First can anyone explain just what happens if I run it in a colder space? The temperature regulation does not work properly. I should have added "in detail". I don't recall the detail. .... Putting a freezer somewhere below 16C is not unusual. Currys are well aware that many people put freezers in garages and other cold places. Unless you specifically asked whether it was suitable for use outside, it is unlikely that a Court would rule that it was unreasonable of Currys to assume that you would not be using a kitchen appliance in a kitchen. So I think that an ambient temperature requirement of over 16C should have been pointed out one way or another. I don't maintain my house at 16C when I'm away, just frost free. I've never seen the point in that. It is a marginal saving at best. .... Yes. I'm tempted but my previous freezers didn't have the restriction, at least it wasn't mentioned in the paperwork, but perhaps things have changed in the 14 or so years since I last bought one - different motors, insulation, refrigerants, controls, etc. I would think it more likely that it is a result of our move towards the compensation culture and the resulting need to give ever more warnings of things that won't affect the majority of people. Colin Bignell |
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#26
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In article , Ian_m wrote:
I thought it was quite common knowledge that fridges/freezers don't work in cold places, fridges usually being the worst. I knew this, but thought that the problem was just confined to single compressor fridge/freezers, not standalone fridges or freezers or twin-compressor fridge freezers? AIUI the analysis something like assume external temp 15C, fridge 5C, freezer -15C, which gives temp differences of 10 and 30, so if the compartments are of equal size and insulation you put 75% of the cooling into the freezer and 25% into the fridge and each bit reaches the desired temp. But if the outside drops to 5C then the fridge cannot get any warmer than this so the stat switches off and the freezer part gradually defrosts. So why not let the stat measure the freezer temp and let the fridge take its chances? -- Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm |
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#28
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Edgar Iredale wrote:
I've just been looking at specs for this Frigidaire FVE2199b on the net but haven't found a mention of the ambient requirement yet. What do you do about it? Keep the kitchen that warm all the time? At least your breadmaker won't need pre-heating. The fridge and freezers I have were both rated for temperatures below 10C. I have an extra fridge-freezer which lives in the utility room - it's only used for overflow, when entertaining. The utility room isn't heated (it's a passageway between the house and the garage), but when I'm using the extra fridge in very cold weather, I leave the door into the back hallway open. I don't use a breadmaker. When it's cold in the kitchen, I just leave the bread to rise, covered, in the airing cupboard. Sheila |
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nightjar wrote:
"L Reid" wrote in message . uk... ...All my experiences with the Dixons group lead me to believe they'll try and ignore your rights as a customer, In this case, what rights? The product was suitable for the purpose for which it was sold, as a kitchen freezer, even if that was not the purpose for which it was bought. The supplier has already exceeded their legal duty by agreeing to accept the product back, less a handling fee. Colin Bignell No. It wasn't suitable for the purpose of a freezer for my kitchen. A freezer that needs a minimum ambient temperature of 16C is not necessarily suitable for use in an English kitchen, which may be expected to go below this temperature when people are on holiday and at other times too. They should have informed me it was subject to ambient temperature restrictions before the sale. In this case they did not, either in the shop or on their web site. As far as I can see even the manufacturers web site doesn't tell me of this restriction. I was only able to find out when I opened the door and took out the instruction booklet. However I expect other shed retailers would have been no more forthcoming about this. Currys behaved quite reasonably except that I'd dispute the "handling charge". On this occasion we're not going to discover the answer as I have accepted the freezer because I need it now and can find ways to overcome the problem. Edgar |
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#30
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nightjar wrote:
8---- Are you in the trade? No. I'd be surprised if it was common knowledge. A straw poll at work today suggests that quite a few people know there is a reason not to use freezers outside, although not necessarily what that reason might be. One person I talked to this afternoon knew of the problem because her sister and daughter both had fridge/freezers in their garages fail with expensive results. First can anyone explain just what happens if I run it in a colder space? The temperature regulation does not work properly. I should have added "in detail". I don't recall the detail. Shame. It's those kind of details I want to hear about so that I can avoid problems. Putting a freezer somewhere below 16C is not unusual. Currys are well aware that many people put freezers in garages and other cold places. Unless you specifically asked whether it was suitable for use outside, it is unlikely that a Court would rule that it was unreasonable of Currys to assume that you would not be using a kitchen appliance in a kitchen. Kitchens themselves often have temperatures below 16C. Mine does. I should have been informed of this restriction because the freezer is not even suitable for my kitchen. So I think that an ambient temperature requirement of over 16C should have been pointed out one way or another. I don't maintain my house at 16C when I'm away, just frost free. I've never seen the point in that. It is a marginal saving at best. Maybe. Not your house though. Yes. I'm tempted but my previous freezers didn't have the restriction, at least it wasn't mentioned in the paperwork, but perhaps things have changed in the 14 or so years since I last bought one - different motors, insulation, refrigerants, controls, etc. I would think it more likely that it is a result of our move towards the compensation culture and the resulting need to give ever more warnings of things that won't affect the majority of people. There may be something in that but having put the restriction in the instruction booklet they should have informed the customer before sale. Colin Bignell Edgar |
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#31
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S Viemeister wrote:
Edgar Iredale wrote: I've just been looking at specs for this Frigidaire FVE2199b on the net but haven't found a mention of the ambient requirement yet. What do you do about it? Keep the kitchen that warm all the time? At least your breadmaker won't need pre-heating. The fridge and freezers I have were both rated for temperatures below 10C. I have an extra fridge-freezer which lives in the utility room - it's only used for overflow, when entertaining. The utility room isn't heated (it's a passageway between the house and the garage), but when I'm using the extra fridge in very cold weather, I leave the door into the back hallway open. I don't use a breadmaker. When it's cold in the kitchen, I just leave the bread to rise, covered, in the airing cupboard. Sheila Thanks Sheila. You do seem to have been rather wiser than me. May I ask what make and type the fridge and freezer are and if you had to go to any special efforts to find them? Presumably they are class SN machines rather than the N than mine is. It'll be useful information for when this one packs up, and for our fridge and freezer in the kitchen which are on their last legs. It seems to me the fridge-freezers are the real problem because of the way they work. They seem to fail quite expensively if they run (or fail to run) long in a too cold place. I've been hearing about such disasters this afternoon and am now quite determined never to buy a fridge-freezer unless it has separate mechanisms for the two parts. I remember making bread in the late seventies when there was a bakers strike or something of the kind. I had a Raeburn in those days and really enjoyed taking the finished cottage loaves to my elderly neighbour who had been worried that he'd miss his bread. I'd never made bread before, or since. I was quite proud of myself. Edgar |
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#32
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Edgar Iredale wrote:
You do seem to have been rather wiser than me. May I ask what make and type the fridge and freezer are and if you had to go to any special efforts to find them? Presumably they are class SN machines rather than the N than mine is. It'll be useful information for when this one packs up, and for our fridge and freezer in the kitchen which are on their last legs. It was a number of years ago - late 1997/early 1998. They're Hotpoints, a matched pair, undercounter height. I don't remember the model numbers, but I doubt if they're still available. So far (touch wood) they've been completely reliable, even with the frequent power outages we've had. One was bought from Scottish HydroElectric, and I think the other was from Curry's - not exactly specialty suppliers. But I did a LOT of research before ordering them. It seems to me the fridge-freezers are the real problem because of the way they work. They seem to fail quite expensively if they run (or fail to run) long in a too cold place. I've been hearing about such disasters this afternoon and am now quite determined never to buy a fridge-freezer unless it has separate mechanisms for the two parts. That was one of the reasons I bought two separate units - the other was the need for counter space. I remember making bread in the late seventies when there was a bakers strike or something of the kind. I had a Raeburn in those days and really enjoyed taking the finished cottage loaves to my elderly neighbour who had been worried that he'd miss his bread. I'd never made bread before, or since. I was quite proud of myself. I make bread several times a week - it still seems almost magical to me, and I've been doing it for at least 30 years. Sheila |
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"Edgar Iredale" wrote in message ... nightjar wrote: "L Reid" wrote in message . uk... ...All my experiences with the Dixons group lead me to believe they'll try and ignore your rights as a customer, In this case, what rights? The product was suitable for the purpose for which it was sold, as a kitchen freezer, even if that was not the purpose for which it was bought. The supplier has already exceeded their legal duty by agreeing to accept the product back, less a handling fee. Colin Bignell No. It wasn't suitable for the purpose of a freezer for my kitchen. It would be judged against the kitchen of the man on the Clapham Omnibus, not yours. A freezer that needs a minimum ambient temperature of 16C is not necessarily suitable for use in an English kitchen, which may be expected to go below this temperature when people are on holiday and at other times too. I think that is probably not a representative expectation. People do not, as a rule, take prolonged holidays in winter and have their heating turned down when they do. Colin Bignell |
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S Viemeister wrote:
Edgar Iredale wrote: You do seem to have been rather wiser than me. May I ask what make and type the fridge and freezer are and if you had to go to any special efforts to find them? Presumably they are class SN machines rather than the N than mine is. It'll be useful information for when this one packs up, and for our fridge and freezer in the kitchen which are on their last legs. It was a number of years ago - late 1997/early 1998. They're Hotpoints, a matched pair, undercounter height. I don't remember the model numbers, but I doubt if they're still available. So far (touch wood) they've been completely reliable, even with the frequent power outages we've had. One was bought from Scottish HydroElectric, and I think the other was from Curry's - not exactly specialty suppliers. But I did a LOT of research before ordering them. It seems to me the fridge-freezers are the real problem because of the way they work. They seem to fail quite expensively if they run (or fail to run) long in a too cold place. I've been hearing about such disasters this afternoon and am now quite determined never to buy a fridge-freezer unless it has separate mechanisms for the two parts. That was one of the reasons I bought two separate units - the other was the need for counter space. I remember making bread in the late seventies when there was a bakers strike or something of the kind. I had a Raeburn in those days and really enjoyed taking the finished cottage loaves to my elderly neighbour who had been worried that he'd miss his bread. I'd never made bread before, or since. I was quite proud of myself. I make bread several times a week - it still seems almost magical to me, and I've been doing it for at least 30 years. Sheila We bought our last freezer about 14 years ago. It was a Hotpoint from the local electricity company shop, where we were talked through the displayed models. In the end the choice was determined, as in this recent purchase, by size and the need to get it quickly (the previous Electrolux had a failed motor after 14 years). The Hotpoint still looks good and works, but a couple of weeks ago I found there was a solid block of ice under the machine. I defrosted it until the ice was gone and put it back into use but I wasn't able to dry out the case fully so ice soon started to build up again. It's likely ice has been building up over a long period. Colder temperatures outside the case will encourage ice build up if moisture can get in and that could be one reason for the new environmental requirements. I'm going to try to mend the Hotpoint once the contents are rehoused. Silly thing to do really but I'll enjoy trying and if I'm successful in fitting suitable new insulation I intend to switch to the old machine from time to time to allow a long defrost period for the new one. That might help reduce the moisture build up in the case. I think one lesson I'm learning from all this is that after about 10 years of use we should start to consider changing our fridge and freezers before anything goes wrong. That would allow time to do some preliminary investigation and selection. It would also give us the opportunity to change both kitchen machines at the same time and get a matching pair. Edgar |
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In article ,
Edgar Iredale writes: We bought our last freezer about 14 years ago. It was a Hotpoint from the local electricity company shop, where we were talked through the displayed models. In the end the choice was determined, as in this recent purchase, by size and the need to get it quickly (the previous Electrolux had a failed motor after 14 years). The Hotpoint still looks good and works, but a couple of weeks ago I found there was a solid block of ice under the machine. I defrosted it until the ice was gone and put it back into use but I wasn't able to dry out the case fully so ice soon started to build up again. It's likely ice has been building up over a long period. Colder temperatures outside the case will encourage ice build up if moisture can get in and that could be one reason for the new environmental requirements. This is a common problem with the freezers built just after CFC expanded foams ceased being used. The Hotpoints use a matting insulation which isn't waterproof, and rely on just a waterproof outer layer. This is not a perfect seal, and over the years moisture gets in, freezes and the insulation becomes bridged with ice. I'm going to try to mend the Hotpoint once the contents are rehoused. Silly thing to do really but I'll enjoy trying and if I'm successful in fitting suitable new insulation I intend to switch to the old machine from time to time to allow a long defrost period for the new one. That might help reduce the moisture build up in the case. I've repaired two Hotpoint freezers which have done this -- one was OK, the other wasn't. I removed all the insulation from the bottom (takes a while as you have to wait for the ice to melt; I used a hairdrier as I was in a hurry -- contents of freezer wrapped in sleeping bags in the dining room;-) There's a heater wire around the edge of the door -- be careful not to damage that. Then I replaced the insulation with the airosol foam spray. Take note of what it says on the tin about doubling in size -- I didn't quite believe it and ended up with the foam expanding such that unless you extend the freezer feet to maximum height, it now sits on the foam bottom;-) One of the units was a 6' fridge/freezer. I did this by laying the unit on it's side, although the top was supported on a step so it wasn't quite horizontal. When finished, I stood the freezer upright for a couple of hours before switching on to allow the refrigerent and oil to settle. The unit lasted another 5 years before the same thing happened again through my replacement foam. (I was expecting the expanded foan to be closed cell, but it clearly wasn't.) The other unit was a worktop height freezer. I turned this upside down which made replacing the insulation easier. However, it never recovered from this. This freezer was not being used at the time, so I left it a couple of days before switching on. At switchon, it did start getting cold. 10 minutes later, I returned to find it had blown its fuse. Replaced the fuse and it started working again, but did the same. Compressor was very hot. Replaced fuse and measured power consumption -- IIRC, it was about 4kW running. I spoke with an engineer at Hotpoint who suspected the expansion jet would have waxed up and the compressor then over- heated and motor windings fused. It was too late for this one, but his suggestion if a freezer has got really shaken up was to switch it on for a minute only with the door open and then leave it to warm up for 5 minutes. Repeat this cycle for a an hour or so, and then when finally switching on to leave it on, carefully monitor the refrigerant flow to make sure it doesn't get blocked until the freezer gets down to right temperature and compressor cuts off normally. I think one lesson I'm learning from all this is that after about 10 years of use we should start to consider changing our fridge and freezers before anything goes wrong. That would allow time to do some preliminary investigation and selection. It would also give us the opportunity to change both kitchen machines at the same time and get a matching pair. It was a brilliant piece of built-in obsolescence. Actually for fridges and freezers, it is not my experience that they are likely to go wrong suddenly and without warning any more often when they're old than when they're new as their mechanical parts (compressors) seem to go on forever, providing you avoid the more complex and less reliable frost-free ones. -- Andrew Gabriel |
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On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 20:32:18 +0000, Edgar Iredale
wrote: I have just bought a Frigidaire upright freezer. Reading the booklet I discover it is only intended to operate in ambient temperatures between 16degC and 32degC. I have never seen such a restriction before and have used freezers in unheated undercover outside spaces - garages and utility rooms etc. without trouble. Should I have known of this restriction? First can anyone explain just what happens if I run it in a colder space? Secondly should the shop I bought it from (Currys) have told me this before I bought it? And should they accept it back and refund the full price? The unit was delivered, unpacked and positioned by their agents. Apart from opening the door to find the operating booklet nothing has been done to the unit. It hasn't been plugged in. Thirdly is there a way of overcoming the low temperature ambient problem. I need an upright freezer and it has to go in a utility room merely kept frost free. Fourthly are there any upright freezers available that will run in 0degC ambient? It doesn't seem much to ask as many people must use freezers in these conditions - for example in kitchens when they go on holiday. BTW Currys telephone Customer Services said, in other words,"Oh dear. The manufacturers won't honour the guarantee.Talk to the branch.". The branch said "It'll work, but the manufacturers probably won't honour the guarantee if they know.". They did offer the take back the unit but only at a reduced price "because it's your fault.". Edgar Hi, Why not phone Frigidaire up and ask them? I wonder if the compressor oil on modern freezers may get too thick at low temps. Also try the forums at http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com, they should have some helpful advice. cheers, Pete. |
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Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article , Edgar Iredale writes: We bought our last freezer about 14 years ago. It was a Hotpoint from the local electricity company shop, where we were talked through the displayed models. In the end the choice was determined, as in this recent purchase, by size and the need to get it quickly (the previous Electrolux had a failed motor after 14 years). The Hotpoint still looks good and works, but a couple of weeks ago I found there was a solid block of ice under the machine. I defrosted it until the ice was gone and put it back into use but I wasn't able to dry out the case fully so ice soon started to build up again. It's likely ice has been building up over a long period. Colder temperatures outside the case will encourage ice build up if moisture can get in and that could be one reason for the new environmental requirements. This is a common problem with the freezers built just after CFC expanded foams ceased being used. The Hotpoints use a matting insulation which isn't waterproof, and rely on just a waterproof outer layer. This is not a perfect seal, and over the years moisture gets in, freezes and the insulation becomes bridged with ice. Yes, that is the problem. The matting is drenched and the foil is torn and holed all over the bottom part but higher up it still looks ok. It wasn't getting condensation on the outside high up so I think the upper parts are probably OK. I'm going to try to mend the Hotpoint once the contents are rehoused. Silly thing to do really but I'll enjoy trying and if I'm successful in fitting suitable new insulation I intend to switch to the old machine from time to time to allow a long defrost period for the new one. That might help reduce the moisture build up in the case. I've repaired two Hotpoint freezers which have done this -- one was OK, the other wasn't. I removed all the insulation from the bottom (takes a while as you have to wait for the ice to melt; I used a hairdrier as I was in a hurry -- contents of freezer wrapped in sleeping bags in the dining room;-) There's a heater wire around the edge of the door -- be careful not to damage that. Then I replaced the insulation with the airosol foam spray. Take note of what it says on the tin about doubling in size -- I didn't quite believe it and ended up with the foam expanding such that unless you extend the freezer feet to maximum height, it now sits on the foam bottom;-) The new freezer now holds the contents so no problem there. The old one is in the garden dripping and I won't do anything to it for a few days to give it a chance to fully thaw. Then I'll bring it in and warm it up to dry out the insulation for a few more days. After that I'm not sure how I'll proceed. I've thought of using that foam spray. I've used it and stuff like it in the past for other things and it can be very good indeed if you never want to remove it again. (One type (Clocell I think) that I used long ago would disintegrate with meths but it took a lot - in that case the foam was a kind of packing for electronic components so cutting it away with a knife was no good.) My other idea is just to shove a lot more fibre stuff in and seal it with plastic sheet and tape. The advantage being it could easily be stripped out if the problem recurs. It's unlikely to recur though as I only intend to use this machine very occasionally. So it'll have plenty of time to thaw and dry out after use. Can you not cut the excess off with a bread knife. One of the units was a 6' fridge/freezer. I did this by laying the unit on it's side, although the top was supported on a step so it wasn't quite horizontal. When finished, I stood the freezer upright for a couple of hours before switching on to allow the refrigerent and oil to settle. The unit lasted another 5 years before the same thing happened again through my replacement foam. (I was expecting the expanded foan to be closed cell, but it clearly wasn't.) If it's not closed cell it'll need an outer sealing film of some sort. Long ago there was some ex-military stuff that was excellent for waterproofing car ignitions. It painted on and dried to a kind of plastic/rubber(?) film so that everything looked encased in a rubber glove. I wonder if there is anything like that now. The other unit was a worktop height freezer. I turned this upside down which made replacing the insulation easier. However, it never recovered from this. This freezer was not being used at the time, so I left it a couple of days before switching on. At switchon, it did start getting cold. 10 minutes later, I returned to find it had blown its fuse. Replaced the fuse and it started working again, but did the same. Compressor was very hot. Replaced fuse and measured power consumption -- IIRC, it was about 4kW running. I spoke with an engineer at Hotpoint who suspected the expansion jet would have waxed up and the compressor then over- heated and motor windings fused. It was too late for this one, but his suggestion if a freezer has got really shaken up was to switch it on for a minute only with the door open and then leave it to warm up for 5 minutes. Repeat this cycle for a an hour or so, and then when finally switching on to leave it on, carefully monitor the refrigerant flow to make sure it doesn't get blocked until the freezer gets down to right temperature and compressor cuts off normally. That's a shame. Was the freezer cold - as in below a normal room temperature? I was under the impression that if the whole unit was kept for a few days in a warmish environment the fluid should settle and work properly when switched on. I think one lesson I'm learning from all this is that after about 10 years of use we should start to consider changing our fridge and freezers before anything goes wrong. That would allow time to do some preliminary investigation and selection. It would also give us the opportunity to change both kitchen machines at the same time and get a matching pair. It was a brilliant piece of built-in obsolescence. Actually for fridges and freezers, it is not my experience that they are likely to go wrong suddenly and without warning any more often when they're old than when they're new as their mechanical parts (compressors) seem to go on forever, providing you avoid the more complex and less reliable frost-free ones. Andrew that was really useful information. I'll keep a copy handy when I'm working on it. Thanks. I've seem some of your earlier posts about this and it was partly those which decided me to keep and try to mend this freezer. Edgar |
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Pete C wrote:
8----- Hi, Why not phone Frigidaire up and ask them? I wonder if the compressor oil on modern freezers may get too thick at low temps. Also try the forums at http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com, they should have some helpful advice. cheers, Pete. Of course you are right - I should. Thanks. Edgar |
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nightjar nightjar@ wrote: People do not, as a rule, take prolonged holidays in winter and have their heating turned down when they do. Not so. Many retired/self employed/seasonal working people take long holidays over the winter months. Some like me, turn down the heating to a reasonable 50F, 10C or lower. Many houses without central heating will drop to below this temperature overnight. A product which won't run at temperatures around freezing point is IMO unfit for purpose. I suppose that this justifies the use of absorption fridges in boats and caravans! Regards Capitol |
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