I am looking at putting an upright freezer in my attached garage.
A max-min thermometer, and other records, show that it
occasionally drops to 5C, but is generally comfortably above 10C,
possibly assisted by the hot water cylinder which lives there.

The various acceptable climate ranges all seem to stop at 10C
minimum.

As far as I can see, the only manufacturer who states that they
will work comfortably below 10C (way down to -15C) is Beko, and I
am guessing they actually incorporate a small heater.

I know that refrigeration gases have changed, and modern
appliances do not behave like the old ones did, but I am tending
towards taking what I perceive to be quite a small risk by not
limiting myself to that make.

Any thoughts?

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

Chris J Dixon wrote:
I am looking at putting an upright freezer in my attached garage.
A max-min thermometer, and other records, show that it
occasionally drops to 5C, but is generally comfortably above 10C,
possibly assisted by the hot water cylinder which lives there.

The various acceptable climate ranges all seem to stop at 10C
minimum.

As far as I can see, the only manufacturer who states that they
will work comfortably below 10C (way down to -15C) is Beko, and I
am guessing they actually incorporate a small heater.

I know that refrigeration gases have changed, and modern
appliances do not behave like the old ones did, but I am tending
towards taking what I perceive to be quite a small risk by not
limiting myself to that make.

Any thoughts?

Chris

I have two Beko ones and they have never faltered. The ambient where
they are is the same as the ambient outdoors, so -10 sometimes.

Bill

On Tue, 11 Mar 2014 16:11:13 +0000, Chris J Dixon wrote:

I am looking at putting an upright freezer in my attached garage.
A max-min thermometer, and other records, show that it occasionally
drops to 5C, but is generally comfortably above 10C,
possibly assisted by the hot water cylinder which lives there.

The various acceptable climate ranges all seem to stop at 10C minimum.

As far as I can see, the only manufacturer who states that they will
work comfortably below 10C (way down to -15C) is Beko, and I am guessing
they actually incorporate a small heater.

I know that refrigeration gases have changed, and modern appliances do
not behave like the old ones did, but I am tending towards taking what I
perceive to be quite a small risk by not limiting myself to that make.

How long is the maximum time at 5C?

No idea if our Beko includes a small heater (but why would it?) but it has
managed O.K. in an unheated block built shed at well below zero winter
before this last one.

Personally I would go with the Beko unless you cannot find one anywhere
near the size and shape you need.

It is likely that the cost of the contents will be similar to the cost of
the freezer so is the risk really worth it if the only aim is to save a
small amount of money?

Cheers

Dave R

In article ,
says...

I am looking at putting an upright freezer in my attached garage.
A max-min thermometer, and other records, show that it
occasionally drops to 5C, but is generally comfortably above 10C,
possibly assisted by the hot water cylinder which lives there.

The various acceptable climate ranges all seem to stop at 10C
minimum.

As far as I can see, the only manufacturer who states that they
will work comfortably below 10C (way down to -15C) is Beko, and I
am guessing they actually incorporate a small heater.

I know that refrigeration gases have changed, and modern
appliances do not behave like the old ones did, but I am tending
towards taking what I perceive to be quite a small risk by not
limiting myself to that make.

Any thoughts?

At the moment the hot water cylinder is the only source of heat?

It's hard to estimate how much extra heat the freezer will introduce.

Incidentally we have an upright freezer in an unheated utility/store
room attached to the house. The ambient temperature in there is
probably in the same range as you have mentioned. The freezer seems
perfectly happy in there (it's not a Beko).


--
Sam

On 11/03/2014 16:11, Chris J Dixon wrote:
I am looking at putting an upright freezer in my attached garage.
A max-min thermometer, and other records, show that it
occasionally drops to 5C, but is generally comfortably above 10C,
possibly assisted by the hot water cylinder which lives there.

The various acceptable climate ranges all seem to stop at 10C
minimum.

Some older ones do not you have to check the ratings plate very very
carefully to find a freezer that will cope with ambients that fall below
about 8C - they will defrost their contents!

As far as I can see, the only manufacturer who states that they
will work comfortably below 10C (way down to -15C) is Beko, and I
am guessing they actually incorporate a small heater.

The choice of refridgerant determines what their lowest working
temperature is. In these modern times of centrally heated homes they
have optimised performance and efficiency for ambient 18C at the
expense of being able to put one in a garage.

I have in the dim and distant past posted about this before and how to
interpet the heiroglyphics on the rating plate into temperature range.

I know that refrigeration gases have changed, and modern
appliances do not behave like the old ones did, but I am tending
towards taking what I perceive to be quite a small risk by not
limiting myself to that make.

Any thoughts?

You will likely have the same problem my brother in law had last winter
where the entire contents of his freezer thawed during a cold snap. The
garage was cold enough to stop the freezer working completely but not
quite good enough to prevent the food deteriorating. It all set into a
solid rancid mess that had to be thawed to get it out.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Chris J Dixon wrote:
I am looking at putting an upright freezer in my attached garage.
A max-min thermometer, and other records, show that it
occasionally drops to 5C, but is generally comfortably above 10C,
possibly assisted by the hot water cylinder which lives there.

The various acceptable climate ranges all seem to stop at 10C
minimum.

As far as I can see, the only manufacturer who states that they
will work comfortably below 10C (way down to -15C) is Beko, and I
am guessing they actually incorporate a small heater.

I know that refrigeration gases have changed, and modern
appliances do not behave like the old ones did, but I am tending
towards taking what I perceive to be quite a small risk by not
limiting myself to that make.

Any thoughts?

Chris

I thought that problems only occurred with single stat, single compressor
fridge-freezers? If the ambient temperature drops below that set for the
fridge, the compressor stops and the freezer warms.

With a freezer though, the stat will be set at -12 (or whatever the norm
is) and I can't see why a drop in ambient temperature should stop the
compressor until the ambient temperature matches that, at which point the
compressor becomes a bit unnecessary!

I suspect the 10C figure you're seeing quoted is for fridge-freezers and
that the morons who quote this figure have forgotten or don't know about
the difference between a freezer and a fridge-freezer.

Tim

On 12/03/2014 08:00, Tim+ wrote:
Chris J Dixon wrote:
I am looking at putting an upright freezer in my attached garage.
A max-min thermometer, and other records, show that it
occasionally drops to 5C, but is generally comfortably above 10C,
possibly assisted by the hot water cylinder which lives there.

The various acceptable climate ranges all seem to stop at 10C
minimum.

As far as I can see, the only manufacturer who states that they
will work comfortably below 10C (way down to -15C) is Beko, and I
am guessing they actually incorporate a small heater.

I know that refrigeration gases have changed, and modern
appliances do not behave like the old ones did, but I am tending
towards taking what I perceive to be quite a small risk by not
limiting myself to that make.

Any thoughts?

Chris

I thought that problems only occurred with single stat, single compressor
fridge-freezers? If the ambient temperature drops below that set for the
fridge, the compressor stops and the freezer warms.

With a freezer though, the stat will be set at -12 (or whatever the norm
is) and I can't see why a drop in ambient temperature should stop the
compressor until the ambient temperature matches that, at which point the
compressor becomes a bit unnecessary!


AIUI, it's to do with the refrigerant used. Not all, in fact most, don't
work effectively below a certain temperature. Beko are one of the few
that will work well below freezing.

Having said that, I had a Bosch freezer that seemingly worked fine at a
pretty constant 10C. If the appliance can take it, it seems ridiculous
to put them in a cool area.

--
Cheers, Rob

Martin Brown wrote:

You will likely have the same problem my brother in law had last winter
where the entire contents of his freezer thawed during a cold snap. The
garage was cold enough to stop the freezer working completely but not
quite good enough to prevent the food deteriorating. It all set into a
solid rancid mess that had to be thawed to get it out.

Are you sure that this was a freezer and not a fridge-freezer?

I can't for the life of me understand why an ambient temperature above the
set freezer compartment temperature should stop the compressor and why a
low ambient temperature should *worsen* the efficiency of a heat pump.

Happy to learn differently if someone can explain it.

Tim

RJH wrote:
On 12/03/2014 08:00, Tim+ wrote:
Chris J Dixon wrote:
I am looking at putting an upright freezer in my attached garage.
A max-min thermometer, and other records, show that it
occasionally drops to 5C, but is generally comfortably above 10C,
possibly assisted by the hot water cylinder which lives there.

The various acceptable climate ranges all seem to stop at 10C
minimum.

As far as I can see, the only manufacturer who states that they
will work comfortably below 10C (way down to -15C) is Beko, and I
am guessing they actually incorporate a small heater.

I know that refrigeration gases have changed, and modern
appliances do not behave like the old ones did, but I am tending
towards taking what I perceive to be quite a small risk by not
limiting myself to that make.

Any thoughts?

Chris

I thought that problems only occurred with single stat, single compressor
fridge-freezers? If the ambient temperature drops below that set for the
fridge, the compressor stops and the freezer warms.

With a freezer though, the stat will be set at -12 (or whatever the norm
is) and I can't see why a drop in ambient temperature should stop the
compressor until the ambient temperature matches that, at which point the
compressor becomes a bit unnecessary!


AIUI, it's to do with the refrigerant used. Not all, in fact most, don't
work effectively below a certain temperature.

Um, surely they all work down to the desired freezer compartment
temperature (which will be way lower than ambient)?

. Beko are one of the few that will work well below freezing.

Having said that, I had a Bosch freezer that seemingly worked fine at a
pretty constant 10C. If the appliance can take it, it seems ridiculous
to put them in a cool area.


Um (again), did you mean "warm area"?

Tim

On 12/03/2014 08:11, Tim+ wrote:
RJH wrote:
On 12/03/2014 08:00, Tim+ wrote:
Chris J Dixon wrote:
I am looking at putting an upright freezer in my attached garage.
A max-min thermometer, and other records, show that it
occasionally drops to 5C, but is generally comfortably above 10C,
possibly assisted by the hot water cylinder which lives there.

The various acceptable climate ranges all seem to stop at 10C
minimum.

As far as I can see, the only manufacturer who states that they
will work comfortably below 10C (way down to -15C) is Beko, and I
am guessing they actually incorporate a small heater.

I know that refrigeration gases have changed, and modern
appliances do not behave like the old ones did, but I am tending
towards taking what I perceive to be quite a small risk by not
limiting myself to that make.

Any thoughts?

Chris

I thought that problems only occurred with single stat, single compressor
fridge-freezers? If the ambient temperature drops below that set for the
fridge, the compressor stops and the freezer warms.

With a freezer though, the stat will be set at -12 (or whatever the norm
is) and I can't see why a drop in ambient temperature should stop the
compressor until the ambient temperature matches that, at which point the
compressor becomes a bit unnecessary!


AIUI, it's to do with the refrigerant used. Not all, in fact most, don't
work effectively below a certain temperature.

Um, surely they all work down to the desired freezer compartment
temperature (which will be way lower than ambient)?


Apparently not - it's to with the refrigerant, which needs to be above a
certain temperature - 10C in most cases I think.

. Beko are one of the few that will work well below freezing.

Having said that, I had a Bosch freezer that seemingly worked fine at a
pretty constant 10C. If the appliance can take it, it seems ridiculous
to put them in a cool area.


Um (again), did you mean "warm area"?


Ahem, yes :-)


--
Cheers, Rob

On 12/03/2014 08:36, RJH wrote:
On 12/03/2014 08:11, Tim+ wrote:
RJH wrote:
On 12/03/2014 08:00, Tim+ wrote:
Chris J Dixon wrote:
I am looking at putting an upright freezer in my attached garage.
A max-min thermometer, and other records, show that it
occasionally drops to 5C, but is generally comfortably above 10C,
possibly assisted by the hot water cylinder which lives there.

The various acceptable climate ranges all seem to stop at 10C
minimum.

As far as I can see, the only manufacturer who states that they
will work comfortably below 10C (way down to -15C) is Beko, and I
am guessing they actually incorporate a small heater.

I know that refrigeration gases have changed, and modern
appliances do not behave like the old ones did, but I am tending
towards taking what I perceive to be quite a small risk by not
limiting myself to that make.

Any thoughts?

Chris

I thought that problems only occurred with single stat, single
compressor
fridge-freezers? If the ambient temperature drops below that set
for the
fridge, the compressor stops and the freezer warms.

With a freezer though, the stat will be set at -12 (or whatever the
norm
is) and I can't see why a drop in ambient temperature should stop the
compressor until the ambient temperature matches that, at which
point the
compressor becomes a bit unnecessary!


AIUI, it's to do with the refrigerant used. Not all, in fact most, don't
work effectively below a certain temperature.

Um, surely they all work down to the desired freezer compartment
temperature (which will be way lower than ambient)?


Apparently not - it's to with the refrigerant, which needs to be above a
certain temperature - 10C in most cases I think.


http://www.which.co.uk/home-and-gard...r-your-garage/


--
Cheers, Rob

David.WE.Roberts wrote:

Personally I would go with the Beko unless you cannot find one anywhere
near the size and shape you need.

It is likely that the cost of the contents will be similar to the cost of
the freezer so is the risk really worth it if the only aim is to save a
small amount of money?

I wasn't necessarily going to go with a cheaper one. I haven't
yet got as far as actually rattling bits of plastic to check the
durability of the drawers, convenience of storage, and so forth.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

On 12/03/2014 08:08, Tim+ wrote:
Martin Brown wrote:

You will likely have the same problem my brother in law had last winter
where the entire contents of his freezer thawed during a cold snap. The
garage was cold enough to stop the freezer working completely but not
quite good enough to prevent the food deteriorating. It all set into a
solid rancid mess that had to be thawed to get it out.

Are you sure that this was a freezer and not a fridge-freezer?

Fridge freezers tend to be dead in the water at 4C since the fridge
thermostat is then happy and shuts down the compressor entirely. I have
also seen brand new fridges whose thermostats will allow you to freeze
the contents overnight (a very annoying fault). Bottled water and celery
do not come out of this freeze thaw cycle looking good!

It could have been a malfunctioning one. The problem could be somewhat
alleviated by insulation to couple the waste heat from the compressor
motor to the reservoir. But used in the garage it was a completely lost
cause during a cold winter snap.

I can't for the life of me understand why an ambient temperature above the
set freezer compartment temperature should stop the compressor and why a
low ambient temperature should *worsen* the efficiency of a heat pump.

I presume the refridgerant working fluid had insufficient vapour
pressure to sustain correct operation at such a low ambient temperature.
Many are now not guaranteed to work properly below 5C.

This post tallies with my understanding of the problem:

http://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy/...76-.htm#279261

Happy to learn differently if someone can explain it.

Tim



--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 12/03/2014 08:11, Tim+ wrote:
RJH wrote:
On 12/03/2014 08:00, Tim+ wrote:
Chris J Dixon wrote:
I am looking at putting an upright freezer in my attached garage.
A max-min thermometer, and other records, show that it
occasionally drops to 5C, but is generally comfortably above 10C,
possibly assisted by the hot water cylinder which lives there.

The various acceptable climate ranges all seem to stop at 10C
minimum.

As far as I can see, the only manufacturer who states that they
will work comfortably below 10C (way down to -15C) is Beko, and I
am guessing they actually incorporate a small heater.

I know that refrigeration gases have changed, and modern
appliances do not behave like the old ones did, but I am tending
towards taking what I perceive to be quite a small risk by not
limiting myself to that make.

Any thoughts?

Chris

I thought that problems only occurred with single stat, single compressor
fridge-freezers? If the ambient temperature drops below that set for the
fridge, the compressor stops and the freezer warms.

With a freezer though, the stat will be set at -12 (or whatever the norm
is) and I can't see why a drop in ambient temperature should stop the
compressor until the ambient temperature matches that, at which point the
compressor becomes a bit unnecessary!


AIUI, it's to do with the refrigerant used. Not all, in fact most, don't
work effectively below a certain temperature.

Um, surely they all work down to the desired freezer compartment
temperature (which will be way lower than ambient)?

The cold side works down to that temperature obviously, but the warm
side has to be warm enough to replenish the working fluid vapour. The
older CFCs were a lot more tolerant of ambient temperature than HCFCs.

. Beko are one of the few that will work well below freezing.

Having said that, I had a Bosch freezer that seemingly worked fine at a
pretty constant 10C. If the appliance can take it, it seems ridiculous
to put them in a cool area.


Um (again), did you mean "warm area"?

The warm side has to be warm enough for there to be enough vapour in the
cold side for the compressor to compress. Otherwise the heat pump stalls
and the cold side stops being properly cold. Really bad ones end up
above freezing essentially sat at ambient temperature after a few days
AFAICT.

It is a bit like the problems you can have with a butane gas torch with
low pressure on a cold frosty morning and the cylinder visibly icing up.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

RJH wrote:
On 12/03/2014 08:36, RJH wrote:
On 12/03/2014 08:11, Tim+ wrote:
RJH wrote:
On 12/03/2014 08:00, Tim+ wrote:
Chris J Dixon wrote:
I am looking at putting an upright freezer in my attached garage.
A max-min thermometer, and other records, show that it
occasionally drops to 5C, but is generally comfortably above 10C,
possibly assisted by the hot water cylinder which lives there.

The various acceptable climate ranges all seem to stop at 10C
minimum.

As far as I can see, the only manufacturer who states that they
will work comfortably below 10C (way down to -15C) is Beko, and I
am guessing they actually incorporate a small heater.

I know that refrigeration gases have changed, and modern
appliances do not behave like the old ones did, but I am tending
towards taking what I perceive to be quite a small risk by not
limiting myself to that make.

Any thoughts?

Chris

I thought that problems only occurred with single stat, single
compressor
fridge-freezers? If the ambient temperature drops below that set
for the
fridge, the compressor stops and the freezer warms.

With a freezer though, the stat will be set at -12 (or whatever the
norm
is) and I can't see why a drop in ambient temperature should stop the
compressor until the ambient temperature matches that, at which
point the
compressor becomes a bit unnecessary!


AIUI, it's to do with the refrigerant used. Not all, in fact most, don't
work effectively below a certain temperature.

Um, surely they all work down to the desired freezer compartment
temperature (which will be way lower than ambient)?


Apparently not - it's to with the refrigerant, which needs to be above a
certain temperature - 10C in most cases I think.


http://www.which.co.uk/home-and-gard...r-your-garage/


I wonder how much Beko slipped to Which to just test their freezer below
10C? ;-) Given that many folk haven't had any problems it would have been
interesting if they had tested many models below 10C. Of course, Which
rarely do really useful tests.

Thanks for the link anyway.

Tim

Martin Brown wrote:
On 12/03/2014 08:08, Tim+ wrote:
Martin Brown wrote:

You will likely have the same problem my brother in law had last winter
where the entire contents of his freezer thawed during a cold snap. The
garage was cold enough to stop the freezer working completely but not
quite good enough to prevent the food deteriorating. It all set into a
solid rancid mess that had to be thawed to get it out.

Are you sure that this was a freezer and not a fridge-freezer?

Fridge freezers tend to be dead in the water at 4C since the fridge
thermostat is then happy and shuts down the compressor entirely. I have
also seen brand new fridges whose thermostats will allow you to freeze
the contents overnight (a very annoying fault). Bottled water and celery
do not come out of this freeze thaw cycle looking good!

It could have been a malfunctioning one. The problem could be somewhat
alleviated by insulation to couple the waste heat from the compressor
motor to the reservoir. But used in the garage it was a completely lost
cause during a cold winter snap.

I can't for the life of me understand why an ambient temperature above the
set freezer compartment temperature should stop the compressor and why a
low ambient temperature should *worsen* the efficiency of a heat pump.

I presume the refridgerant working fluid had insufficient vapour pressure
to sustain correct operation at such a low ambient temperature. Many are
now not guaranteed to work properly below 5C.

This post tallies with my understanding of the problem:

http://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy/...76-.htm#279261

Happy to learn differently if someone can explain it.

Tim




Thanks. I realised after posting that the phase change makes freezer
operation very different from a car radiator say.

Thanks for the link.

Tim

On 12/03/2014 09:15, Tim+ wrote:


I wonder how much Beko slipped to Which to just test their freezer below
10C? ;-) Given that many folk haven't had any problems it would have been
interesting if they had tested many models below 10C. Of course, Which
rarely do really useful tests.


Why would they test a freezer outside the manufacturers stated operating
conditions?
Many state they won't work below a certain ambient temp.
I have seen one that stated 15C but I don't recall which.

In article ,
Martin Brown writes:
On 12/03/2014 08:11, Tim+ wrote:

Um, surely they all work down to the desired freezer compartment
temperature (which will be way lower than ambient)?

The cold side works down to that temperature obviously, but the warm
side has to be warm enough to replenish the working fluid vapour. The
older CFCs were a lot more tolerant of ambient temperature than HCFCs.

. Beko are one of the few that will work well below freezing.

Having said that, I had a Bosch freezer that seemingly worked fine at a
pretty constant 10C. If the appliance can take it, it seems ridiculous
to put them in a cool area.


Um (again), did you mean "warm area"?

The warm side has to be warm enough for there to be enough vapour in the
cold side for the compressor to compress. Otherwise the heat pump stalls
and the cold side stops being properly cold. Really bad ones end up
above freezing essentially sat at ambient temperature after a few days
AFAICT.

It is a bit like the problems you can have with a butane gas torch with
low pressure on a cold frosty morning and the cylinder visibly icing up.

Aircon units can have same problem, but they have a heater in the
compressor which cuts in if it gets too cold outside. If the whole
unit has been powered down, they often require the heater to run
for 24hrs before they will attempt to operate.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

"dennis@home" wrote:
On 12/03/2014 09:15, Tim+ wrote:


I wonder how much Beko slipped to Which to just test their freezer below
10C? ;-) Given that many folk haven't had any problems it would have been
interesting if they had tested many models below 10C. Of course, Which
rarely do really useful tests.


Why would they test a freezer outside the manufacturers stated operating conditions?

Because in the real world people *will* put them in garages or unheated
rooms so it would be useful information.

WHICH is there to serve consumers (in theory). Performing the tests would
be a service.

Tim

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

Aircon units can have same problem, but they have a heater in the
compressor which cuts in if it gets too cold outside. If the whole
unit has been powered down, they often require the heater to run
for 24hrs before they will attempt to operate.

I rather suspect that this is how the Beko freezers work.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

On 12/03/2014 14:48, Tim+ wrote:
"dennis@home" wrote:
On 12/03/2014 09:15, Tim+ wrote:


I wonder how much Beko slipped to Which to just test their freezer below
10C? ;-) Given that many folk haven't had any problems it would have been
interesting if they had tested many models below 10C. Of course, Which
rarely do really useful tests.


Why would they test a freezer outside the manufacturers stated operating conditions?

Because in the real world people *will* put them in garages or unheated
rooms so it would be useful information.

WHICH is there to serve consumers (in theory). Performing the tests would
be a service.

Tim


So they test a unit and it works.. how does that help consumers who then
buy one that doesn't work because its slightly different due to
manufacturing tolerances and the supplier says its not covered by
warranty because its been abused?