Having been driving for 40 years ... the most that has ever gone wrong
on the Transmission side of things is a slipping clutch or a leaky prop
shaft oil seal.

Last week car (New Jeep Cherokee) which has a ZF 9 speed automatic
transmission, would not start, declared "park sensors faulty" - wiped
them clean in case it was just mud.

Still wouldn't start now declared "parking brake faulty" .. car has
electronic & automatic handbrake.

Multiple attempts on manually turning parking brake on & off then it
finally started - only to be limited to about 5mph (found out this is
Limp mode)
Trying to put car back in driveway found any attempt to move to D or R
and I got a big thud and the car jerked .. much like snapping your foot
off the clutch on a manual car.

Switched all off - locked it up and left in 5 mins ..... then returned
and all back to normal, working fine only issue there is now engine
management light on.

Called Main dealer who I bought it from, and they advise they can't look
at it until 19th Jan as workshop is busy !!! (22 days at that point)
and suggest I call out Roadside Assistance (included with car)

Called out roadside assistance ... they advised no roadside assistance,
all they will do as management light is on is 'on truck' recovery to dealer.

It got to dealer who after some pressure at least plugged in Laptop to
diagnose Engine Management light ..... Transmission failure.

Result is I need a new gearbox and new transaxle ........ wow !

The Jeep originated form Willys Jeep of WW2 that was designed to be
reliable and robust.

This car, with less than 10,000 miles, never been off roaded, is having
a complete Transmission replacement - due to software alarms.


Th cost of this must be very high (I'm not paying) .... just as well
JEEPS didn't have software alarms in WW2

On Thursday, 5 January 2017 18:08:58 UTC, rick wrote:
Having been driving for 40 years ... the most that has ever gone wrong
on the Transmission side of things is a slipping clutch or a leaky prop
shaft oil seal.

Last week car (New Jeep Cherokee)

whoops. You live & learn.

rick wrote:
Having been driving for 40 years ... the most that has ever gone wrong
on the Transmission side of things is a slipping clutch or a leaky prop
shaft oil seal.

Last week car (New Jeep Cherokee) which has a ZF 9 speed automatic
transmission, would not start, declared "park sensors faulty" - wiped
them clean in case it was just mud.

Still wouldn't start now declared "parking brake faulty" .. car has
electronic & automatic handbrake.

Multiple attempts on manually turning parking brake on & off then it
finally started - only to be limited to about 5mph (found out this is
Limp mode)
Trying to put car back in driveway found any attempt to move to D or R
and I got a big thud and the car jerked .. much like snapping your foot
off the clutch on a manual car.

Switched all off - locked it up and left in 5 mins ..... then returned
and all back to normal, working fine only issue there is now engine
management light on.

Called Main dealer who I bought it from, and they advise they can't look
at it until 19th Jan as workshop is busy !!! (22 days at that point)
and suggest I call out Roadside Assistance (included with car)

Called out roadside assistance ... they advised no roadside assistance,
all they will do as management light is on is 'on truck' recovery to dealer.

It got to dealer who after some pressure at least plugged in Laptop to
diagnose Engine Management light ..... Transmission failure.

Result is I need a new gearbox and new transaxle ........ wow !

The Jeep originated form Willys Jeep of WW2 that was designed to be
reliable and robust.

This car, with less than 10,000 miles, never been off roaded, is having
a complete Transmission replacement - due to software alarms.


Th cost of this must be very high (I'm not paying) .... just as well
JEEPS didn't have software alarms in WW2






Jeep Cherokee. Enough said. ;-)

More seriously, just because the dealer thinks it's the transmission in
this day and age it could just as easily be a £5 sensor somewhere that's
duff. My DSG Touran gearbox started playing silly buggers and the dealers
didn't have a clue. Eventually a wheel sensor fault flagged itself up. Lo
and behold, the gearbox was "fixed" by changing the wheel sensor.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

And not for the better with all these sensors which the grease monkeys don't
understand.
Brilliant idea though, a licence to print money.
Why is it that when you unlock the car Blackpool illuminations appear?
You place your snap tin on the passenger seat and the "beeps" start, fit
seatbelt.
It's all far too clever and waiting to be an expensive PITA.

On Thursday, 5 January 2017 18:29:02 UTC, Tim+ wrote:
rick wrote:

Last week car (New Jeep Cherokee) which has a ZF 9 speed automatic
transmission, would not start, declared "park sensors faulty" - wiped
them clean in case it was just mud.

Jeep Cherokee. Enough said. ;-)

More seriously,

It's not a joke, it's routine for American cars to be delivered faulty.


NT

On 1/5/2017 6:08 PM, rick wrote:
Having been driving for 40 years ... the most that has ever gone wrong
on the Transmission side of things is a slipping clutch or a leaky prop
shaft oil seal.

tale of woe snipped



Some of the software controlled stuff on cars is pretty good, look for
example at fuel consumption.

It strikes me that once you have a lot of sensors, and only
half-intelligent software that always tends to look on the dark side,
then you have a recipe for this sort of disaster.

And actually, it's not necessarily the "computer" that is the problem. I
cherish the story of a doctor friend from the mid 70's.

Driving from Cornwall to Bristol one evening with a two year old in the
car, a "brake warning" light came on. In those days, I think it could
only have been the fluid level switch in the reservoir cap (possibly the
pad wear sensor). The brakes were still working fine, but being of a
cautious nature she called out the AA. The van arrived, they said "Oh it
is a brake warning, we don't touch those, we have to call out the Relay
recovery vehicle". Another delay while this turned up, and took her to
the Somerset border where they had to change vehicle (it's the rules).
But the new vehicle had a puncture, and no spare, so there was another
few hours delay while that was sorted. Then they didn't have the right
kit for loading the car (Renault 5). In loading it, they ripped both
drive shaft gaiters and denting the sump. So she gets to Bristol from
Cornwall after 14 hours (with a two-year old passenger). Car gets
dropped at her garage. Next day, they phone to say they couldn't find
any brake fault. But it is in the garage for a week for a sump and drive
shaft replacement, paid for by the AA.

In those days, the cars I was driving didn't have a fluid level sensor,
but I guess *most* of us in those circumstances would have driven home
defensively, checking brake function and fluid level periodically.

So what do we need for modern cars, with sensors everywhere? Well, since
the 1960's the "space" sector has usually had three or four sensors for
each critical parameter, usually with some diversity, plus a voting
system (2 out of 3 or 3 out of 4).

I can't help thinking that we are going to need something like this in cars.

"newshound" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 1/5/2017 6:08 PM, rick wrote:
Having been driving for 40 years ... the most that has ever gone wrong
on the Transmission side of things is a slipping clutch or a leaky prop
shaft oil seal.

tale of woe snipped



Some of the software controlled stuff on cars is pretty good, look for
example at fuel consumption.

It strikes me that once you have a lot of sensors, and only
half-intelligent software that always tends to look on the dark side, then
you have a recipe for this sort of disaster.


well that obvious isn't it.

what sort of numpty programs an engine management system to show DOA because
of "parking sensor fault"

tim

On 05/01/17 19:05, newshound wrote:
On 1/5/2017 6:08 PM, rick wrote:
Having been driving for 40 years ... the most that has ever gone wrong
on the Transmission side of things is a slipping clutch or a leaky prop
shaft oil seal.

tale of woe snipped



Some of the software controlled stuff on cars is pretty good, look for
example at fuel consumption.

I wonder. I assume you are referring to cutting the engine when stopping
at lights, etc. Sure, it must save fuel, but how much? Well, with a 2l
engine it's around 600ml/hour. But how many cars idle for an hour
during a journey? Also, after a while engine cut-out won't work (at
least, it doesn't in my Jazz because it's designed that way). In
practice, it probably saves considerably less than a gallon a month.

I think that Honda makes its consumption figures up anyway. My figures,
based on the trip meter and petrol pump reading average 4 mpg less than
Honda's trip meter consumption reading every time I fill up.

(snip)

So what do we need for modern cars, with sensors everywhere? Well, since
the 1960's the "space" sector has usually had three or four sensors for
each critical parameter, usually with some diversity, plus a voting
system (2 out of 3 or 3 out of 4).

I can't help thinking that we are going to need something like this in cars.

Good luck with that. I have to click on a sort of legal agreement on the
lcd display every time I start the car! The lawyers won't allow anything
which exposes the company to any possible legal action.

--

Jeff

On 05/01/17 21:07, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 05/01/17 19:05, newshound wrote:
On 1/5/2017 6:08 PM, rick wrote:
Having been driving for 40 years ... the most that has ever gone wrong
on the Transmission side of things is a slipping clutch or a leaky prop
shaft oil seal.

tale of woe snipped



Some of the software controlled stuff on cars is pretty good, look for
example at fuel consumption.

I wonder. I assume you are referring to cutting the engine when stopping
at lights, etc. Sure, it must save fuel, but how much? Well, with a 2l
engine it's around 600ml/hour. But how many cars idle for an hour
during a journey? Also, after a while engine cut-out won't work (at
least, it doesn't in my Jazz because it's designed that way). In
practice, it probably saves considerably less than a gallon a month.

I think that Honda makes its consumption figures up anyway. My figures,
based on the trip meter and petrol pump reading average 4 mpg less than
Honda's trip meter consumption reading every time I fill up.



Try "Honest John mpg" - it's a website that collates users' mpg figures
by car.

rick wrote:
[snip]
This car, with less than 10,000 miles, never been off roaded, is having
a complete Transmission replacement - due to software alarms.

Perhaps it was getting bored!

--
Chris Green
·

On 05/01/2017 18:33, wrote:
On Thursday, 5 January 2017 18:29:02 UTC, Tim+ wrote:
rick wrote:

Last week car (New Jeep Cherokee) which has a ZF 9 speed automatic
transmission, would not start, declared "park sensors faulty" - wiped
them clean in case it was just mud.

Jeep Cherokee. Enough said. ;-)

More seriously,

It's not a joke, it's routine for American cars to be delivered faulty.

or have women driving

http://viz.co.uk/the-sexist-book-of-...turning-right/


--
Adam

On 05/01/17 21:22, Tim Watts wrote:
On 05/01/17 21:07, Jeff Layman wrote:


I think that Honda makes its consumption figures up anyway. My figures,
based on the trip meter and petrol pump reading average 4 mpg less than
Honda's trip meter consumption reading every time I fill up.

Try "Honest John mpg" - it's a website that collates users' mpg figures
by car.

Interesting link, but it's not clear how the real mpg figure is
obtained. It's not the EC official figure I'm questioning, but the mpg
figure on the car's display.

I checked my average for last year, and the Jazz's displayed mpg average
was 50.3 (Honest John's real mpg figure is 49.6). My calculated average
figure (trip meter mileage divided by petrol pump reading when pump
automatically stops) was 46.3.

--

Jeff

In article ,
rick wrote:
It got to dealer who after some pressure at least plugged in Laptop to
diagnose Engine Management light ..... Transmission failure.

Result is I need a new gearbox and new transaxle ........ wow !

I'd find a new dealer. One who actually understands how a car works.

--
*I thought I wanted a career. Turns out I just wanted paychecks.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
newshound wrote:
Some of the software controlled stuff on cars is pretty good, look for
example at fuel consumption.

It strikes me that once you have a lot of sensors, and only
half-intelligent software that always tends to look on the dark side,
then you have a recipe for this sort of disaster.

The disaster is having mechanics who are only fit to take what computer
diagnostics say as gospel and throw lots of expensive new parts at it. And
customers stupid enough to pay for this approach.

--
*I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Jeff Layman wrote:
I checked my average for last year, and the Jazz's displayed mpg average
was 50.3 (Honest John's real mpg figure is 49.6). My calculated average
figure (trip meter mileage divided by petrol pump reading when pump
automatically stops) was 46.3.

How many tanks did you do this over? One isn't enough. You can't guarantee
you started and ended with the same amount of fuel in the tank.

--
*Why do psychics have to ask you for your name? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 05/01/2017 21:07, Jeff Layman wrote:

I wonder. I assume you are referring to cutting the engine when stopping
at lights, etc. Sure, it must save fuel, but how much?

Tiff Needel on Fifth gear did a test in town driving (lots of lights
congestion etc) and got the result that it saved north of 1% (exact
figure eludes me). So worth having on a 'city car'.

Friend of mine's is a driving instructor his car has this auto engine
off feature he reckons it's a god-send for his type of driving (lots of
stationery to explain things) and reckons it can save him up to 10% on
his fuel bills

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
rick wrote:
It got to dealer who after some pressure at least plugged in Laptop to
diagnose Engine Management light ..... Transmission failure.

Result is I need a new gearbox and new transaxle ........ wow !

I'd find a new dealer. One who actually understands how a car works.

I've said before about my nearest main Jeep dealer, who has to borrow
the diagnostic tester from Jeep UK as they haven't got one, thought they
had thrown out a lot of the little used Jeep equipment when they moved
premises so hadn't the kit to free off the tracking and said "Is it a
4x4? We can't do tracking if it's a 4x4".
Having found a good "Main Jeep Service Agent" who identified and did
some foc recalls and the tracking, I got a letter from them saying they
had sold the Citroen franchise (their main business) to another garage
and were closing.
Jeep UK were friendly when I rang them, but only able to offer sympathy.

I'm still stuck with this Jeep, as I haven't found a cheap enough Disco,
Shogun or whatever, and I'm sure the chuffing from the back inaccessible
injector has returned.

On the other discussion here about mpg, this is a fixation of mine. I
don't believe the mantra that petrol is better for low mileage's.
Petrol auto Omega 40 mpg motorway, 7-9mpg taking elderly ladies shopping
as always "full choke".
Diesel auto Disco or Grand Cherokee 26mpg motorway 22mpg shopping.
Diesel Manual Octavia 70mpg motorway 35mpg shopping

All values approx but measured over several fill-ups. Everything depends
on the style and requirements of driving.
--
Bill

On 06/01/17 02:44, soup wrote:
a god-send for his type of driving (lots of
stationery to explain things)

Does he write everythuing down then?

"newshound" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 1/5/2017 6:08 PM, rick wrote:
Having been driving for 40 years ... the most that has ever gone wrong
on the Transmission side of things is a slipping clutch or a leaky prop
shaft oil seal.

tale of woe snipped



Some of the software controlled stuff on cars is pretty good, look for
example at fuel consumption.

It strikes me that once you have a lot of sensors, and only
half-intelligent software that always tends to look on the dark side, then
you have a recipe for this sort of disaster.

And actually, it's not necessarily the "computer" that is the problem. I
cherish the story of a doctor friend from the mid 70's.

Driving from Cornwall to Bristol one evening with a two year old in the
car, a "brake warning" light came on. In those days, I think it could only
have been the fluid level switch in the reservoir cap (possibly the pad
wear sensor). The brakes were still working fine, but being of a cautious
nature she called out the AA. The van arrived, they said "Oh it is a brake
warning, we don't touch those, we have to call out the Relay recovery
vehicle". Another delay while this turned up, and took her to the Somerset
border where they had to change vehicle (it's the rules). But the new
vehicle had a puncture, and no spare, so there was another few hours delay
while that was sorted. Then they didn't have the right kit for loading the
car (Renault 5). In loading it, they ripped both drive shaft gaiters and
denting the sump. So she gets to Bristol from Cornwall after 14 hours
(with a two-year old passenger). Car gets dropped at her garage. Next day,
they phone to say they couldn't find any brake fault. But it is in the
garage for a week for a sump and drive shaft replacement, paid for by the
AA.

In those days, the cars I was driving didn't have a fluid level sensor,
but I guess *most* of us in those circumstances would have driven home
defensively, checking brake function and fluid level periodically.

So what do we need for modern cars, with sensors everywhere? Well, since
the 1960's the "space" sector has usually had three or four sensors for
each critical parameter, usually with some diversity, plus a voting system
(2 out of 3 or 3 out of 4).

I can't help thinking that we are going to need something like this in
cars.

Cant see it happening with cars because of the cost.

Bill Wrote in message:

Big snip

On the other discussion here about mpg, this is a fixation of mine. I
don't believe the mantra that petrol is better for low mileage's.
Petrol auto Omega 40 mpg motorway, 7-9mpg taking elderly ladies shopping
as always "full choke".
Diesel auto Disco or Grand Cherokee 26mpg motorway 22mpg shopping.
Diesel Manual Octavia 70mpg motorway 35mpg shopping

All values approx but measured over several fill-ups. Everything depends
on the style and requirements of driving.

That's just the driving side though? Istr the "mantra " also
factors in more expensive diesel maintenance & repair? costs over
the period...

--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On 06/01/17 00:27, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Jeff Layman wrote:
I checked my average for last year, and the Jazz's displayed mpg average
was 50.3 (Honest John's real mpg figure is 49.6). My calculated average
figure (trip meter mileage divided by petrol pump reading when pump
automatically stops) was 46.3.

How many tanks did you do this over? One isn't enough. You can't guarantee
you started and ended with the same amount of fuel in the tank.

A total of 18 tankfuls over last year (I do around only 5500 miles a
year). The tank is filled every 300 miles - give or take - and to when
the pump automatically clicks off; I never try to drip-feed it to the
top. So although I can't guarantee everything is equal (different pumps,
slightly different amounts of petrol), I think it's a pretty accurate
average.

FWIW, the figures for 2014 and 2015 for my Mk1 Jazz we
2014 - Real 42.1 Honda 43.2 (n = 17)
2015 - Real 43.2 Honda 43.9 (n = 22)
So much closer together. That's why I am suspicious of Honda's displayed
consumption figures for my MkIII Jazz - never mind the "official" figures.

--

Jeff

On 06/01/2017 00:25, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
newshound wrote:
Some of the software controlled stuff on cars is pretty good, look for
example at fuel consumption.

It strikes me that once you have a lot of sensors, and only
half-intelligent software that always tends to look on the dark side,
then you have a recipe for this sort of disaster.

The disaster is having mechanics who are only fit to take what computer
diagnostics say as gospel and throw lots of expensive new parts at it. And
customers stupid enough to pay for this approach.

Indeed. The skill is in interpreting what the diags tell you.

On 05/01/2017 21:07, Jeff Layman wrote:

I wonder. I assume you are referring to cutting the engine when stopping
at lights, etc. Sure, it must save fuel, but how much? Well, with a 2l
engine it's around 600ml/hour. But how many cars idle for an hour
during a journey? Also, after a while engine cut-out won't work (at
least, it doesn't in my Jazz because it's designed that way). In
practice, it probably saves considerably less than a gallon a month.


And that at the expense of a beefed up starter mechanism (or early
starter failure) and a much more expensive battery that has to be
"integrated" with the EMC. I have always wondered what the net lifetime
saving of this pseudo green system actually is.


--
Chris B (News)

On 05/01/2017 18:27, Tim+ wrote:


More seriously, just because the dealer thinks it's the transmission in
this day and age it could just as easily be a £5 sensor somewhere that's
duff.

How many sensors on a modern car can you get for £5. Even on my last
car (a ford Escort) an intermittent problem was diagnosed as one of two
sensors. One at £90 the other over £100. The advice of my local (non
main dealer) garage was the wait till the intermittent problem becomes
permanent - we will then stand a better chance of changing the correct
sensor.


--
Chris B (News)

On Thursday, 5 January 2017 22:41:17 UTC, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 05/01/17 21:22, Tim Watts wrote:
On 05/01/17 21:07, Jeff Layman wrote:


I think that Honda makes its consumption figures up anyway. My figures,
based on the trip meter and petrol pump reading average 4 mpg less than
Honda's trip meter consumption reading every time I fill up.

Try "Honest John mpg" - it's a website that collates users' mpg figures
by car.

Interesting link, but it's not clear how the real mpg figure is
obtained. It's not the EC official figure I'm questioning, but the mpg
figure on the car's display.

I checked my average for last year, and the Jazz's displayed mpg average
was 50.3 (Honest John's real mpg figure is 49.6). My calculated average
figure (trip meter mileage divided by petrol pump reading when pump
automatically stops) was 46.3.

--

Jeff

Depends on your driving style and how hilly/bendy the roads are it is round your way.
Alos rural/urban driving is different.

On Fri, 06 Jan 2017 10:01:56 +0000, Chris B wrote:

On 05/01/2017 21:07, Jeff Layman wrote:

I wonder. I assume you are referring to cutting the engine when
stopping at lights, etc. Sure, it must save fuel, but how much? Well,
with a 2l engine it's around 600ml/hour. But how many cars idle for an
hour during a journey? Also, after a while engine cut-out won't work
(at least, it doesn't in my Jazz because it's designed that way). In
practice, it probably saves considerably less than a gallon a month.


And that at the expense of a beefed up starter mechanism (or early
starter failure) and a much more expensive battery that has to be
"integrated" with the EMC. I have always wondered what the net lifetime
saving of this pseudo green system actually is.

Well, it takes the pollution away from the road, I guess. Round here, I
turn it off if in heavy, inching-forward traffic.

BUT...I travel where there are quite a few level crossings (grade
crossings?). People rarely stop the engine at these, even for a 5 minute
wait. The amount of noise and pollution round that queue must be
considerable, and the saving a little more too.



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

Tim+ wrote in news
rick wrote:
Having been driving for 40 years ... the most that has ever gone
wrong on the Transmission side of things is a slipping clutch or a
leaky prop shaft oil seal.

Last week car (New Jeep Cherokee) which has a ZF 9 speed automatic
transmission, would not start, declared "park sensors faulty" - wiped
them clean in case it was just mud.

Still wouldn't start now declared "parking brake faulty" .. car has
electronic & automatic handbrake.

Multiple attempts on manually turning parking brake on & off then it
finally started - only to be limited to about 5mph (found out this
is Limp mode)
Trying to put car back in driveway found any attempt to move to D or
R and I got a big thud and the car jerked .. much like snapping your
foot off the clutch on a manual car.

Switched all off - locked it up and left in 5 mins ..... then
returned and all back to normal, working fine only issue there is now
engine management light on.

Called Main dealer who I bought it from, and they advise they can't
look at it until 19th Jan as workshop is busy !!! (22 days at that
point) and suggest I call out Roadside Assistance (included with
car)

Called out roadside assistance ... they advised no roadside
assistance, all they will do as management light is on is 'on truck'
recovery to dealer.

It got to dealer who after some pressure at least plugged in Laptop
to diagnose Engine Management light ..... Transmission failure.

Result is I need a new gearbox and new transaxle ........ wow !

The Jeep originated form Willys Jeep of WW2 that was designed to be
reliable and robust.
I can't believe it has any connection to the Willys Jeep - other than a
plagiarised name

In article ,
Bill wrote:
On the other discussion here about mpg, this is a fixation of mine. I
don't believe the mantra that petrol is better for low mileage's.
Petrol auto Omega 40 mpg motorway, 7-9mpg taking elderly ladies shopping
as always "full choke".

Does anyone really believe petrol like for like gives better MPG ever? It
may get close to diesel on the motorway, but loses out badly in town and
with short journeys.

So saying, both my cars are petrol and auto, and neither exhibits such a
wide gap between motorway and town - unless that shopping journey is very
short indeed. I won't use my car for a journey so short it doesn't heat up
to normal, as it is very bad for the engine.

Both cars are similar in that the town MPG is about half that of motorway
use (or slightly better). If 25% as you've said, I'd guess something is
amiss. Unless an ancient car on carbs with a poor auto choke. But I doubt
you'd get decent motorway MPG with that.
Diesel auto Disco or Grand Cherokee 26mpg motorway 22mpg shopping.
Diesel Manual Octavia 70mpg motorway 35mpg shopping

--
*Until I was thirteen, I thought my name was SHUT UP .

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Jeff Layman wrote:
How many tanks did you do this over? One isn't enough. You can't
guarantee you started and ended with the same amount of fuel in the
tank.

A total of 18 tankfuls over last year (I do around only 5500 miles a
year). The tank is filled every 300 miles - give or take - and to when
the pump automatically clicks off; I never try to drip-feed it to the
top. So although I can't guarantee everything is equal (different pumps,
slightly different amounts of petrol), I think it's a pretty accurate
average.

FWIW, the figures for 2014 and 2015 for my Mk1 Jazz we 2014 - Real
42.1 Honda 43.2 (n = 17) 2015 - Real 43.2 Honda 43.9 (n = 22) So much
closer together. That's why I am suspicious of Honda's displayed
consumption figures for my MkIII Jazz - never mind the "official"
figures.

OK. I've had three cars which display the average MPG. All of them were as
near as dammit accurate compared to checking it over several tankfuls. But
that does assume the odometer is accurate.

Official MPG was and is only ever of any use as a comparison between makes.

--
*Real men don't waste their hormones growing hair

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Chris Bartram wrote:
On 06/01/2017 00:25, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
newshound wrote:
Some of the software controlled stuff on cars is pretty good, look for
example at fuel consumption.

It strikes me that once you have a lot of sensors, and only
half-intelligent software that always tends to look on the dark side,
then you have a recipe for this sort of disaster.

The disaster is having mechanics who are only fit to take what
computer diagnostics say as gospel and throw lots of expensive new
parts at it. And customers stupid enough to pay for this approach.

Indeed. The skill is in interpreting what the diags tell you.

Many sensors in an engine etc are analogue. And can be tested easily by
someone with basic electrical knowledge. And someone with basic
understanding of the various injection systems can make a good guess at
what sensor may have failed by the symptoms.

--
*If a mute swears, does his mother wash his hands with soap?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Chris B wrote:
On 05/01/2017 18:27, Tim+ wrote:


More seriously, just because the dealer thinks it's the transmission
in this day and age it could just as easily be a £5 sensor somewhere
that's duff.

How many sensors on a modern car can you get for £5. Even on my last
car (a ford Escort) an intermittent problem was diagnosed as one of two
sensors. One at £90 the other over £100. The advice of my local (non
main dealer) garage was the wait till the intermittent problem becomes
permanent - we will then stand a better chance of changing the correct
sensor.

Like all car bits, many of these things are an outrageous price.

--
*WHERE DO FOREST RANGERS GO TO "GET AWAY FROM IT ALL?"

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Chris B wrote:
On 05/01/2017 21:07, Jeff Layman wrote:

I wonder. I assume you are referring to cutting the engine when stopping
at lights, etc. Sure, it must save fuel, but how much? Well, with a 2l
engine it's around 600ml/hour. But how many cars idle for an hour
during a journey? Also, after a while engine cut-out won't work (at
least, it doesn't in my Jazz because it's designed that way). In
practice, it probably saves considerably less than a gallon a month.


And that at the expense of a beefed up starter mechanism (or early
starter failure) and a much more expensive battery that has to be
"integrated" with the EMC. I have always wondered what the net lifetime
saving of this pseudo green system actually is.

My car's manual tells me the energy (from braking) is stored in a super
capacitor.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On 06/01/17 11:29, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Bob Eager
wrote:

BUT...I travel where there are quite a few level crossings.

Yes. The Canterbury West to Ashford line is a good example. Several of
these are still operated by a man, too.


And near Canterbury on the London to Ramsgate line, it's even a bit DIY.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRQt_PMhBXY

--
Adrian C

On 06/01/17 10:22, harry wrote:
On Thursday, 5 January 2017 22:41:17 UTC, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 05/01/17 21:22, Tim Watts wrote:
On 05/01/17 21:07, Jeff Layman wrote:


I think that Honda makes its consumption figures up anyway. My figures,
based on the trip meter and petrol pump reading average 4 mpg less than
Honda's trip meter consumption reading every time I fill up.

Try "Honest John mpg" - it's a website that collates users' mpg figures
by car.

Interesting link, but it's not clear how the real mpg figure is
obtained. It's not the EC official figure I'm questioning, but the mpg
figure on the car's display.

I checked my average for last year, and the Jazz's displayed mpg average
was 50.3 (Honest John's real mpg figure is 49.6). My calculated average
figure (trip meter mileage divided by petrol pump reading when pump
automatically stops) was 46.3.

--

Jeff

Depends on your driving style and how hilly/bendy the roads are it is round your way.
Alos rural/urban driving is different.

Yes, but that's not the point. I am comparing an accurate calculated
figure based on odometer reading and filling station petrol pump reading
with what the Jazz's display says the consumption is. I assume that's
based on odometer reading and internal petrol pump pulse output. It
doesn't matter where or how I've been driving - both figures should be
more-or-less identical.

--

Jeff

In message , jim
writes
Bill Wrote in message:

Big snip

On the other discussion here about mpg, this is a fixation of mine. I
don't believe the mantra that petrol is better for low mileage's.
Petrol auto Omega 40 mpg motorway, 7-9mpg taking elderly ladies shopping
as always "full choke".
Diesel auto Disco or Grand Cherokee 26mpg motorway 22mpg shopping.
Diesel Manual Octavia 70mpg motorway 35mpg shopping

All values approx but measured over several fill-ups. Everything depends
on the style and requirements of driving.

That's just the driving side though? Istr the "mantra " also
factors in more expensive diesel maintenance & repair? costs over
the period...

I don't know about that. The Disco 300tdi and the LR110 200tdi before it
had virtually no costs associated with engine maintenance. In about 12
years over the 2 vehicles, I only remember some oil, engine pre-heat
thingies in the 300tdi and one new fan belt. All the big costs related
to welding the chassis, bi-metallic corrosion etc.

Similarly, the 2, 1.9tdi Skoda's that I've had didn't have any excessive
engine related costs, and I've had them maintained by the local main
dealer.

I appreciate that newer diesels seem to have a load of unreliable junk
bolted on to the engines, and this might push costs up. The 2004 Jeep's
2.7 Merc engine has cost a lot, but that seems primarily down to
attempts to modernise a basically poor design (eg inaccessible and only
one bolt per injector). I'd be very wary of buying a Mercedes now having
seen this engine.
--
Bill

On Fri, 06 Jan 2017 11:29:10 +0000, Tim Streater wrote:

In article , Bob Eager
wrote:

BUT...I travel where there are quite a few level crossings.

Yes. The Canterbury West to Ashford line is a good example. Several of
these are still operated by a man, too.

That is actually the one I encounter most. Either the level crossing
nearest to Canterbury East (but easterly, away from Ashford), or the one
east of that.

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
So saying, both my cars are petrol and auto, and neither exhibits such
a wide gap between motorway and town - unless that shopping journey is
very short indeed. I won't use my car for a journey so short it doesn't
heat up to normal, as it is very bad for the engine.

The short journeys in my case have now been going on for 8 years, every
evening, and usually involve:
Our house to hers - about half a mile. Long wait while she gets herself
and is sometimes helped down the path.
About 1/4 mile to supermarket. Long wait, about 30 mins+, while she
talks to staff and buys a few items.
About 300yards to our house where we all eat and watch the news.
Half a mile back to her house, short wait while I help her up the path.
Back to our house - less than 1/2 mile in this direction.

At every stop the engine cooled down, and my belief is that the
injection system poured fuel into the petrol engine. The Omega was
maintained by the (not terribly impressive) main agent.
--
Bill

On Fri, 06 Jan 2017 11:39:32 +0000, Adrian Caspersz wrote:

On 06/01/17 11:29, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Bob Eager
wrote:

BUT...I travel where there are quite a few level crossings.

Yes. The Canterbury West to Ashford line is a good example. Several of
these are still operated by a man, too.


And near Canterbury on the London to Ramsgate line, it's even a bit DIY.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRQt_PMhBXY

Ah, Whitehall Road. Not much call to go up there unless you live there.



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

Chris B wrote:
On 05/01/2017 18:27, Tim+ wrote:


More seriously, just because the dealer thinks it's the transmission in
this day and age it could just as easily be a £5 sensor somewhere that's
duff.

How many sensors on a modern car can you get for £5.

Okay, it was just a guess. Of course what the dealer charges you bears
little relation to the cost price. ;-)

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 06/01/2017 11:21, Huge wrote:

But I always thought these systems were to reduce urban emissions, rather
that save fuel.



They are there to put a car into a lower tax band.