Would like to hear your views/experiences concerning kitchen extractor
hoods. I'm planning my replacement kitchen and am debating the pros
and cons of extractor hoods that vent through an outside wall compared
with those that, by virtue of location on an internal wall must clean
and then recirculate the air.

The hood will be located over a 900 mm wide 5 burner gas hob. The
current layout includes an extracting hood but I'm conscious of all the
(expensive) warm air that will be extracted along with the smell of
burning food! I'm also aware that one can run ducting from hoods
mounted on internal walls across cupboards to external vents but the
'internal' location of the hob would be on the opposite side of the
kitchen from the outside wall. I could run ducting across the ceiling
(unsightly) or through the ceiling void of the room above (difficult to
clean the duct work).

Any views etc on which hood to buy would also be welcome. BTW I'm 6'2''
and resent banging my forehead on cooker hoods when peering into pots on
the hob!


TIA Richard

Extract don't re-circulate. The air may be warm but it is normally loaded
with moisture which the filter won't remove.

Rob


"Richard Savage" wrote in message
...
Would like to hear your views/experiences concerning kitchen extractor
hoods. I'm planning my replacement kitchen and am debating the pros
and cons of extractor hoods that vent through an outside wall compared
with those that, by virtue of location on an internal wall must clean
and then recirculate the air.

The hood will be located over a 900 mm wide 5 burner gas hob. The
current layout includes an extracting hood but I'm conscious of all the
(expensive) warm air that will be extracted along with the smell of
burning food! I'm also aware that one can run ducting from hoods
mounted on internal walls across cupboards to external vents but the
'internal' location of the hob would be on the opposite side of the
kitchen from the outside wall. I could run ducting across the ceiling
(unsightly) or through the ceiling void of the room above (difficult to
clean the duct work).

Any views etc on which hood to buy would also be welcome. BTW I'm 6'2''
and resent banging my forehead on cooker hoods when peering into pots on
the hob!


TIA Richard

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 19:56:45 +0000, Richard Savage
wrote:

Would like to hear your views/experiences concerning kitchen extractor
hoods. I'm planning my replacement kitchen and am debating the pros
and cons of extractor hoods that vent through an outside wall compared
with those that, by virtue of location on an internal wall must clean
and then recirculate the air.

The hood will be located over a 900 mm wide 5 burner gas hob. The
current layout includes an extracting hood but I'm conscious of all the
(expensive) warm air that will be extracted along with the smell of
burning food! I'm also aware that one can run ducting from hoods
mounted on internal walls across cupboards to external vents but the
'internal' location of the hob would be on the opposite side of the
kitchen from the outside wall. I could run ducting across the ceiling
(unsightly) or through the ceiling void of the room above (difficult to
clean the duct work).

Any views etc on which hood to buy would also be welcome. BTW I'm 6'2''
and resent banging my forehead on cooker hoods when peering into pots on
the hob!


TIA Richard

There's really not a lot of point to recirculating hoods. The carbon
filters will absorb certain of the smells etc for a short while but do
nothing to deal with water vapour.

I would try to find a way to do a ducting arrangement since the
results of extraction to the outside are very much better.

One solution that I have seen for ducting is to use a flat, wide type
and run it along the top of the kitchen cupboards. You can create a
flyover shelf between them and in other areas to continue the line.
This also has the advantage that you can run cables and pipes and even
locate LV halogen lamps which are very effective next to walls.

In terms of manufacturer, a large proportion of hoods sold, many as
branded to appliance manufacturers, are made by Elica.

Elica has a wide range themselves and the UK distributor is DR
Cookerhoods. www.cookerhoods.net

They sell through dealers and will recommend one. The last hood I
bought came from TLC Direct on special order.

Some of the models in the range come with metal mesh washable grease
filters. These can be removed and washed in hot water and detergent,
so no consumable filters are required.
..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andy Hall wrote:

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 19:56:45 +0000, Richard Savage
wrote:


There's really not a lot of point to recirculating hoods. The carbon
filters will absorb certain of the smells etc for a short while but do
nothing to deal with water vapour.

I would try to find a way to do a ducting arrangement since the
results of extraction to the outside are very much better.

One solution that I have seen for ducting is to use a flat, wide type
and run it along the top of the kitchen cupboards. You can create a
flyover shelf between them and in other areas to continue the line.
This also has the advantage that you can run cables and pipes and even
locate LV halogen lamps which are very effective next to walls.

In terms of manufacturer, a large proportion of hoods sold, many as
branded to appliance manufacturers, are made by Elica.

Elica has a wide range themselves and the UK distributor is DR
Cookerhoods. www.cookerhoods.net

They sell through dealers and will recommend one. The last hood I
bought came from TLC Direct on special order.

Some of the models in the range come with metal mesh washable grease
filters. These can be removed and washed in hot water and detergent,
so no consumable filters are required.
.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Thanks Andy,

I'll contact Elica.

As for ducting - unfortunately there is no 'over cupboard path' across the
kitchen (galley kitchen with doors at both ends) Sorry I should have made
that clear. At their previous (pre first War) house my father solved a
similar problem by ducting the extracted air down the back of the cooker and
into the void under the floor. Not an option in my concrete rafted house.

Rgds Richard

Richard Savage wrote:
As for ducting - unfortunately there is no 'over cupboard path'

You could take the ducting straight across the room, fit a 500mm wide board
under it with a couple of LV downlighters in it.

--
Toby.

'One day son, all this will be finished'

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 22:42:42 +0000, Richard Savage
wrote:



Thanks Andy,

I'll contact Elica.

As for ducting - unfortunately there is no 'over cupboard path' across the
kitchen (galley kitchen with doors at both ends) Sorry I should have made
that clear. At their previous (pre first War) house my father solved a
similar problem by ducting the extracted air down the back of the cooker and
into the void under the floor. Not an option in my concrete rafted house.

Rgds Richard

That's awkward.

Are both doors to other internal rooms or is one an end wall? In
that case you could go through that.

Otherwise, is it feasible to swap the kitchen around mirror image so
that the cooker is on the outside wall?
I know it sounds daft for the sake of a cooker and hood, but if the
room is also relatively small, it's even more important to try and
extract to the outside.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 23:13:39 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:



Are both doors to other internal rooms or is one an end wall? In
that case you could go through that.

Otherwise, is it feasible to swap the kitchen around mirror image so
that the cooker is on the outside wall?
I know it sounds daft for the sake of a cooker and hood, but if the
room is also relatively small, it's even more important to try and
extract to the outside.


Right across the ceiling in 110mm pipe, paint it chrome and call it a
"feature"?
"The industrial look".

--
Niall

Richard Savage wrote on Tuesday (20/01/2004) :
Would like to hear your views/experiences concerning kitchen extractor
hoods. I'm planning my replacement kitchen and am debating the pros
and cons of extractor hoods that vent through an outside wall compared
with those that, by virtue of location on an internal wall must clean
and then recirculate the air.

Very definitely extract to the outside. The filter in a recirculating
type may take out some of the grease, but none of the moisture. I ran a
rigid plastic pipe up into the ceiling, then used flexible from there
about 5 feet along under the floor. I might have been lucky in that the
joists ran in the right direction to enable me to do this (check before
you decide). Some, perhaps all cooker hoods can be set to recirculate
or be ducted out.

I don't think the wasted heat should be considered, it is after all
foul moisture laden air which will do your home and its decorations no
good at all.

Make sure you get a wall outlet with a flap valve, to prevent air
blowing back in. I don't think there would be much likelihood of the
pipework ever needing cleaning out, during the working life of cooker
hood. The downside is that it is a lot more work putting the pipework
in.

--

Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (Lap)
http://www.ukradioamateur.org

Andy Hall wrote:

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 19:56:45 +0000, Richard Savage
wrote:


Would like to hear your views/experiences concerning kitchen extractor
hoods. I'm planning my replacement kitchen and am debating the pros
and cons of extractor hoods that vent through an outside wall compared
with those that, by virtue of location on an internal wall must clean
and then recirculate the air.

The hood will be located over a 900 mm wide 5 burner gas hob. The
current layout includes an extracting hood but I'm conscious of all the
(expensive) warm air that will be extracted along with the smell of
burning food! I'm also aware that one can run ducting from hoods
mounted on internal walls across cupboards to external vents but the
'internal' location of the hob would be on the opposite side of the
kitchen from the outside wall. I could run ducting across the ceiling
(unsightly) or through the ceiling void of the room above (difficult to
clean the duct work).

Any views etc on which hood to buy would also be welcome. BTW I'm 6'2''
and resent banging my forehead on cooker hoods when peering into pots on
the hob!


TIA Richard


There's really not a lot of point to recirculating hoods. The carbon
filters will absorb certain of the smells etc for a short while but do
nothing to deal with water vapour.


That may however be all you need.

IF I had an electric cooker on an internal wall, I'd use one again.

Backed up with a separet extraxctor to remove vapur.

Andy Hall wrote:


That's awkward.

Are both doors to other internal rooms or is one an end wall? In
that case you could go through that.

Otherwise, is it feasible to swap the kitchen around mirror image so
that the cooker is on the outside wall?
I know it sounds daft for the sake of a cooker and hood, but if the
room is also relatively small, it's even more important to try and
extract to the outside.

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Hi Andy,

Both doors are internal, in walls perpendicular to the outside wall, but not in
line with each other. The original plan was an 'L' shape surface along the
outside wall containing hob and, across the corner, a 'designer' (Franke) sink
some 300 x 430 mm. And a mirror image 'L' on the internal wall opposite
containing the double oven in the corner of the 'L'. Having thought more about
the sink, we have concluded that it will be too small for things such as grill
pans etc. On the basis that we cannot run sink waste across the floor of the
kitchen, we are considering relocating the hob to the internal surface and
installing a standard size sink somewhere else on the external surface. The
advantage of that is co-locating the 'hot' stuff and a useable sink.

I suppose that I could route a duct along the ceiling/internal wall junction
through the top of the oven housing and then up into the ceiling void and so to
the outside wall or just along the ceiling to the outside wall. sigh I wish
one could attach files!

What do you think about cleaning 'in void' ducting?

Cheers Richard

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 18:16:30 +0000, Richard Savage
wrote:


Hi Andy,

Both doors are internal, in walls perpendicular to the outside wall, but not in
line with each other. The original plan was an 'L' shape surface along the
outside wall containing hob and, across the corner, a 'designer' (Franke) sink
some 300 x 430 mm. And a mirror image 'L' on the internal wall opposite
containing the double oven in the corner of the 'L'. Having thought more about
the sink, we have concluded that it will be too small for things such as grill
pans etc. On the basis that we cannot run sink waste across the floor of the
kitchen, we are considering relocating the hob to the internal surface and
installing a standard size sink somewhere else on the external surface. The
advantage of that is co-locating the 'hot' stuff and a useable sink.

I suppose that I could route a duct along the ceiling/internal wall junction
through the top of the oven housing and then up into the ceiling void and so to
the outside wall or just along the ceiling to the outside wall. sigh I wish
one could attach files!

Put photos on a web site and post the URL?


What do you think about cleaning 'in void' ducting?

If you choose an extractor with a metal grease filter it will have a
reasonable but not perfect effect on keeping down what gets through to
the ducting.

Other than that, if you use flexible round duct, it may be simplest
and cheapest to simply replace it periodically.

If you use the rigid stuff then you are going to need to find a way to
make it demountable with reasonable ease.



Cheers Richard

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andy Hall wrote:



Put photos on a web site and post the URL?


If you can point me towards a free ISP that will offer some webspace and access via
broadband I'd gladly post some pics. I do have access to an ISP offering part of
this, but (a) they no longer accept BB access and (b) in any case they seem to have
withdrawn the free webspace!

Cheers Richard

"Richard Savage" wrote in message
...


Andy Hall wrote:



Put photos on a web site and post the URL?


If you can point me towards a free ISP that will offer some webspace and
access via
broadband I'd gladly post some pics. I do have access to an ISP offering
part of
this, but (a) they no longer accept BB access and (b) in any case they
seem to have
withdrawn the free webspace!

Cheers Richard


Been following the thread and now I'd be interested to see photos up!

If you mail me some reasonable sized photos tonight and a bit of text to
stick with them then I can host 'em for you and post a link. I don't think
it'll generate a slashdot-magnitude traffic storm.... :-)

Can't guarantee they'll be there in perpetuity, but should be ok for the
forseeable future.

--
Richard Sampson

email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 20:16:40 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 19:56:45 +0000, Richard Savage
wrote:

Would like to hear your views/experiences concerning kitchen extractor
hoods. I'm planning my replacement kitchen and am debating the pros
and cons of extractor hoods that vent through an outside wall compared
with those that, by virtue of location on an internal wall must clean
and then recirculate the air.

The hood will be located over a 900 mm wide 5 burner gas hob. The
current layout includes an extracting hood but I'm conscious of all the
(expensive) warm air that will be extracted along with the smell of
burning food! I'm also aware that one can run ducting from hoods
mounted on internal walls across cupboards to external vents but the
'internal' location of the hob would be on the opposite side of the
kitchen from the outside wall. I could run ducting across the ceiling
(unsightly) or through the ceiling void of the room above (difficult to
clean the duct work).

Any views etc on which hood to buy would also be welcome. BTW I'm 6'2''
and resent banging my forehead on cooker hoods when peering into pots on
the hob!


TIA Richard

There's really not a lot of point to recirculating hoods. The carbon
filters will absorb certain of the smells etc for a short while but do
nothing to deal with water vapour.

I would try to find a way to do a ducting arrangement since the
results of extraction to the outside are very much better.

One solution that I have seen for ducting is to use a flat, wide type
and run it along the top of the kitchen cupboards. You can create a
flyover shelf between them and in other areas to continue the line.
This also has the advantage that you can run cables and pipes and even
locate LV halogen lamps which are very effective next to walls.

In terms of manufacturer, a large proportion of hoods sold, many as
branded to appliance manufacturers, are made by Elica.

Elica has a wide range themselves and the UK distributor is DR
Cookerhoods. www.cookerhoods.net

They sell through dealers and will recommend one. The last hood I
bought came from TLC Direct on special order.

Some of the models in the range come with metal mesh washable grease
filters. These can be removed and washed in hot water and detergent,
so no consumable filters are required.
.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
I would support re use of extracting hoods to remove steam eg when
simmering a piece of ham.
Note that rectangular ducting comes in at least two sizes and the
larger size, preferable for long runs, does not seem to be readily
available. Get the .pdf catalogue from Domus with details of their
kits etc and formulae for calculating requirements from length and
flow rate - the hoods manual will tell you the flow rates required.

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 19:17:49 +0000, Richard Savage
wrote:



Andy Hall wrote:



Put photos on a web site and post the URL?


If you can point me towards a free ISP that will offer some webspace and access via
broadband I'd gladly post some pics. I do have access to an ISP offering part of
this, but (a) they no longer accept BB access and (b) in any case they seem to have
withdrawn the free webspace!


http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/learn2...rks4_Free.html


The pages are free and there free tools on there that will upload Yr
images for you.

DG

derek wrote:



http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/learn2...rks4_Free.html

The pages are free and there free tools on there that will upload Yr
images for you.

DG

Brill,

Thanks Derek.

Rgds Richard

Thanks to Mine Host, you can find the pics and current layout proposal at:

http://domino-177.billbuchan.com/oli...epics?openpage



Now, the first pic is the door in the top of the right-hand internal wall. The
second etc move anticlockwise around the kitchen. (Scuse the mess) The,
temporary, chipboard surface along the outer wall was installed when we moved
in 3 years ago and discovered extensive rot in the existing kitchen units.


TIA to all interested contributors.

Richard

Thanks to Mine Host, you can find the pics and current layout proposal
at:

http://domino-177.billbuchan.com/oli...epics?openpage



Now, the first pic is the door in the top of the right-hand internal
wall. The
second etc move anticlockwise around the kitchen. (Scuse the mess)
The,
temporary, chipboard surface along the outer wall was installed when we
moved
in 3 years ago and discovered extensive rot in the existing kitchen
units.


TIA to all interested contributors.

Richard

On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 19:33:01 +0000, Richard Savage
wrote:

Thanks to Mine Host, you can find the pics and current layout proposal
at:

http://domino-177.billbuchan.com/oli...epics?openpage



Now, the first pic is the door in the top of the right-hand internal
wall. The
second etc move anticlockwise around the kitchen. (Scuse the mess)
The,
temporary, chipboard surface along the outer wall was installed when we
moved
in 3 years ago and discovered extensive rot in the existing kitchen
units.


TIA to all interested contributors.

Richard


Very good, but I'm a bit confused.

The diagram is the new layout, right?

The outside wall is at the bottom of the diagram?

The new hob is in the bottom left of the diagram, i.e. to the left of
the arch?

Could you elaborate just a bit because it doesn't seem that the duct
would need to cross in that case..... Obvioulsy this is not the
case......


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andy Hall wrote:


Very good, but I'm a bit confused.

The diagram is the new layout, right?

The outside wall is at the bottom of the diagram?

The new hob is in the bottom left of the diagram, i.e. to the left of
the arch?

Could you elaborate just a bit because it doesn't seem that the duct
would need to cross in that case..... Obvioulsy this is not the
case......

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Sorry Andy,

I guess that in the long, and learned, discussion the original question(s) have been
blurred.

The current plan, as shown on the web, has the hob on the outside wall under a hood
venting to the outside. In the bottom right hand corner of the plan is a Franke sink
whose biggest bowl is some 300 x 400 mm. Diagonally opposite the sink is a double oven
'tower'. This is the only immovable item in the plan because of the need to hide a lot
of CH pipes in that corner. Water and gas are placed along the outside wall only.

The design is over two years old now (enforced delay thanks to ICL deciding it didn't
require my services when it became Fujitsu) and in that time we have ocasionally thought
long and hard about small sinks. The only solution we can think of is to locate the hob
next to the ovens and fit a 'proper' sink roughly where the hob is shown on the plan.
That raises the problems of providing a gas supply to the oven side of the room (see
another thread) and how to deal with smells and steam.

I briefly mentioned a extractor duct across the ceiling tonight and my beloved drew a
deep breath and said 'no way'. I'll wait a bit and ask her exactly what she means by
that ;-)

Best regards Richard

On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 20:25:03 +0000, Richard Savage
wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:


Very good, but I'm a bit confused.

The diagram is the new layout, right?

The outside wall is at the bottom of the diagram?

The new hob is in the bottom left of the diagram, i.e. to the left of
the arch?

Could you elaborate just a bit because it doesn't seem that the duct
would need to cross in that case..... Obvioulsy this is not the
case......

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Sorry Andy,

I guess that in the long, and learned, discussion the original question(s) have been
blurred.

The current plan, as shown on the web, has the hob on the outside wall under a hood
venting to the outside. In the bottom right hand corner of the plan is a Franke sink
whose biggest bowl is some 300 x 400 mm. Diagonally opposite the sink is a double oven
'tower'. This is the only immovable item in the plan because of the need to hide a lot
of CH pipes in that corner. Water and gas are placed along the outside wall only.

The design is over two years old now (enforced delay thanks to ICL deciding it didn't
require my services when it became Fujitsu) and in that time we have ocasionally thought
long and hard about small sinks. The only solution we can think of is to locate the hob
next to the ovens and fit a 'proper' sink roughly where the hob is shown on the plan.
That raises the problems of providing a gas supply to the oven side of the room (see
another thread) and how to deal with smells and steam.


OK, so what I'm missing is what is wrong with the plan you have
posted?

You have the hob and the sink on the outside wall?

Is the issue that you think that the corner sink is too small?
300x400 is a bit, isn't it. Is this their Papillon PAX 652-E?

Generally having the hob a long way from the sink is not a brilliant
move, especially as it would be diagonally across the room and
presumably the room is a thoroughfare? This could create a real
danger.

Moving the hob to the other side of the room creates a major PITA,
because you have to get the services over there and I agree, given the
layout, you don't want a duct across at ceiling height. The only way
that I can see that would make that half reasonable would be to run a
flyover shelf across the top of the arch, as I mentioned earlier,
effectively continuing the cornice line around the arch end of the
room. You could use an extractor built into a top cupboard unit to
complete the line, effectively stopping to the right of the window.
The only thing is that that might make the room seem a bit narrow at
that end. I wouldn't do that for either aesthetic, but more
important safety reasons because of the hob location.

It seems to me that a better solution would be to keep the items
roughly as you have them and do something to achieve a larger sink
or a second one.

Can you put the washing machine anywhere else like the garage for
example? Otherwise I wonder if there is a way for it to go the other
side of the room on the oven wall?

Alternatively, could the washer go in the space the other side of the
sink as you have it now where the plinth heater is shown?

This frees up 600mm under the window and you could put a second sink
in there and a smaller one across the corner perhaps. It looks like
you have about 300mm to play with between dishwasher and hob so you
could perhaps move things around a bit in that respect.

The little vegetable sinks are a dead loss in practice - too small to
do anything useful apart from deliver stuff to a waste disposer if you
have one.

If you are tight on space, the best option is generally a double bowl
sink You can drain things in it, stick a board on top for more space
- a lot more flexible than a drainer.

You might be able to fit in a double bowl or larger sink by moving the
dishwasher closer to the hob and moving the washer as mentioned.

Corner sinks are deceptive - they appear to be large and make use of
the space but are not as big as you think in practice.






I briefly mentioned a extractor duct across the ceiling tonight and my beloved drew a
deep breath and said 'no way'. I'll wait a bit and ask her exactly what she means by
that ;-)

Best regards Richard


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andy Hall wrote:


OK, so what I'm missing is what is wrong with the plan you have
posted?

You have the hob and the sink on the outside wall?

Is the issue that you think that the corner sink is too small?
300x400 is a bit, isn't it.

Yes

Is this their Papillon PAX 652-E?

No, in fact I think it might be a Blanco Viva 9E. 330 x 420. Bit bigger than I remembered
but still pointlessly small..


Generally having the hob a long way from the sink is not a brilliant
move, especially as it would be diagonally across the room and
presumably the room is a thoroughfare? This could create a real
danger.

Yes, the 'breakfast room' is beyond the arch. What's wrong with not having sink near the
hob?




Moving the hob to the other side of the room creates a major PITA,

Very much so.


because you have to get the services over there and I agree, given the
layout, you don't want a duct across at ceiling height. The only way
that I can see that would make that half reasonable would be to run a
flyover shelf across the top of the arch, as I mentioned earlier,
effectively continuing the cornice line around the arch end of the
room. You could use an extractor built into a top cupboard unit to
complete the line, effectively stopping to the right of the window.
The only thing is that that might make the room seem a bit narrow at
that end. I wouldn't do that for either aesthetic, but more
important safety reasons because of the hob location.

It seems to me that a better solution would be to keep the items
roughly as you have them and do something to achieve a larger sink
or a second one.

Larger sink is the driver for redesigning the layout




Can you put the washing machine anywhere else like the garage for
example?

Unfortunately not. The front of the garage is approx. level with the mid point of the room
beyond the arch. And running plumbing and drainage to it would require major work. The
washing m/c could go under the surface at the point marked 'plinth heater'. SWMBO has
decided that the Myson Kickspace heater that was destined for this space is too noisy - I
think that you can see it in one of the pics - and wants electric under floor heating. That
frees a 600mm space which could accomodate the washing machine.


Otherwise I wonder if there is a way for it to go the other
side of the room on the oven wall?

Alternatively, could the washer go in the space the other side of the
sink as you have it now where the plinth heater is shown?

Ooops should have read this bit before answering above!



This frees up 600mm under the window and you could put a second sink
in there and a smaller one across the corner perhaps. It looks like
you have about 300mm to play with between dishwasher and hob so you
could perhaps move things around a bit in that respect.

Yes!!



The little vegetable sinks are a dead loss in practice - too small to
do anything useful apart from deliver stuff to a waste disposer if you
have one.

Yes yes!



If you are tight on space, the best option is generally a double bowl
sink You can drain things in it, stick a board on top for more space
- a lot more flexible than a drainer.

You might be able to fit in a double bowl or larger sink by moving the
dishwasher closer to the hob and moving the washer as mentioned.

Corner sinks are deceptive - they appear to be large and make use of
the space but are not as big as you think in practice.

Agreed, SWMBO thought it was big until I showed her how the dimensions compare with the
existing sink.


.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Thanks for sparing time to consider this problem,

Best regards Richard

On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 23:24:11 +0000, Richard Savage
wrote:



Andy Hall wrote:


OK, so what I'm missing is what is wrong with the plan you have
posted?

You have the hob and the sink on the outside wall?

Is the issue that you think that the corner sink is too small?
300x400 is a bit, isn't it.

Yes

Is this their Papillon PAX 652-E?

No, in fact I think it might be a Blanco Viva 9E. 330 x 420. Bit bigger than I remembered
but still pointlessly small..


Generally having the hob a long way from the sink is not a brilliant
move, especially as it would be diagonally across the room and
presumably the room is a thoroughfare? This could create a real
danger.

Yes, the 'breakfast room' is beyond the arch. What's wrong with not having sink near the
hob?


Sorry not to be clear. If you put the hob on the oven side, you have
to cross the thoroughfare between the breakfast room and the end with
the two doors (is that the access to the rest of the house and the
back door?). If small children, cats,..... run through it seems
dangerous to me. You have the oven on that side anyway, but I
believe that conventional wisdom is that the danger is hot pans from
hob to sink. That happens a lot.

Typically you want some worktop between hob and sink if you can.

What I was looking at was trying to get the sink along the run under
the window.





Moving the hob to the other side of the room creates a major PITA,

Very much so.


because you have to get the services over there and I agree, given the
layout, you don't want a duct across at ceiling height. The only way
that I can see that would make that half reasonable would be to run a
flyover shelf across the top of the arch, as I mentioned earlier,
effectively continuing the cornice line around the arch end of the
room. You could use an extractor built into a top cupboard unit to
complete the line, effectively stopping to the right of the window.
The only thing is that that might make the room seem a bit narrow at
that end. I wouldn't do that for either aesthetic, but more
important safety reasons because of the hob location.

It seems to me that a better solution would be to keep the items
roughly as you have them and do something to achieve a larger sink
or a second one.

Larger sink is the driver for redesigning the layout


Don't ignore the notion of having two separate sinks even if one is
smallish - fitting a 400 or 500 mm unit - and the other a bit larger.
Might be a useful idea - I'm not sure.






Can you put the washing machine anywhere else like the garage for
example?

Unfortunately not. The front of the garage is approx. level with the mid point of the room
beyond the arch. And running plumbing and drainage to it would require major work. The
washing m/c could go under the surface at the point marked 'plinth heater'. SWMBO has
decided that the Myson Kickspace heater that was destined for this space is too noisy - I
think that you can see it in one of the pics - and wants electric under floor heating. That
frees a 600mm space which could accomodate the washing machine.

I didn't realise that the kickspace heater would wipe out the unit
from being used for an appliance. Freeing that space up does seem
to be the key to making this work.

Considering that the room is contiguous with the breakfast room, I
wonder whether increasing the radiator size in there would be worth
considering if you need it. The only thing to consider with UFH in
the kitchen is that there may be times when a lot of cooking is
happening and you want to reduce it. That takes time.

While I think of it, I think that having the extraction to outside,
considering that the room is open plan is an important point.





Otherwise I wonder if there is a way for it to go the other
side of the room on the oven wall?

Alternatively, could the washer go in the space the other side of the
sink as you have it now where the plinth heater is shown?

Ooops should have read this bit before answering above!



This frees up 600mm under the window and you could put a second sink
in there and a smaller one across the corner perhaps. It looks like
you have about 300mm to play with between dishwasher and hob so you
could perhaps move things around a bit in that respect.

Yes!!



The little vegetable sinks are a dead loss in practice - too small to
do anything useful apart from deliver stuff to a waste disposer if you
have one.

Yes yes!


If you are tight on space, the best option is generally a double bowl
sink You can drain things in it, stick a board on top for more space
- a lot more flexible than a drainer.

You might be able to fit in a double bowl or larger sink by moving the
dishwasher closer to the hob and moving the washer as mentioned.

Corner sinks are deceptive - they appear to be large and make use of
the space but are not as big as you think in practice.

Agreed, SWMBO thought it was big until I showed her how the dimensions compare with the
existing sink.


You could even put the dishwasher under the corner where you have the
sink shown now. It loses a bit of corner storage space relative to
a standard 600mm cupboard but overall it may not make a huge
difference.

You might have to build some mounting arrangement inside the corner
cupboard to take the appliance, but it should be do-able.


.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Thanks for sparing time to consider this problem,

You're very welcome.



Best regards Richard


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article , Richard Savage
wrote:


To join in (very) late:

Are you absolutely set on a 900 wide hob?

ISTM that it would be nice to have, running along the 'bottom' wall"

Space between wall and hob (0.5), Hob (1), Dishwasher (1), 1.5-2bowl
sink with drainer extending over corner (3), where the numbers in
brackets are 600mm unit widths and give a total of 5.5, which I think
is what you have available.
If you could stand a slimline dishwasher, that would also increase your
options

Washing machine to go where plinth heater won't be.

Unfortunately, this puts the sink just offset from the window, and
would muck up your overhead cupboard plan. It also might mean you had
to have a normal boring right-angle in the corner instead of a swish
modern cut-corner. Not sure. Its late. I don't suppose you could
move/enlarge the window so that it balanced the sink better? (Or is it
just me that likes to look out of the window while at the sink...)


For a really off-the-wall idea... could you have the dishwasher and or
washing machine UNDER the hob?? Hobs don't seem to need to extend below
the thickness of the work surface. Probably against the rules.

Must go to bed.

David



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In article , David Micklem
wrote:

In article , Richard Savage
wrote:


To join in (very) late:

Are you absolutely set on a 900 wide hob?

ISTM that it would be nice to have, running along the 'bottom' wall"

Space between wall and hob (0.5), Hob (1), Dishwasher (1), 1.5-2bowl
sink with drainer extending over corner (3), where the numbers in
brackets are 600mm unit widths and give a total of 5.5, which I think
is what you have available.
If you could stand a slimline dishwasher, that would also increase your
options

Washing machine to go where plinth heater won't be.

Unfortunately, this puts the sink just offset from the window, and
would muck up your overhead cupboard plan. It also might mean you had
to have a normal boring right-angle in the corner instead of a swish
modern cut-corner. Not sure. Its late. I don't suppose you could
move/enlarge the window so that it balanced the sink better? (Or is it
just me that likes to look out of the window while at the sink...)


For a really off-the-wall idea... could you have the dishwasher and or
washing machine UNDER the hob?? Hobs don't seem to need to extend below
the thickness of the work surface. Probably against the rules.

Must go to bed.

David

Funny what a nights sleep will do... I had an alternative idea
sometime during the night which might suit (and which I think is much
better):

Can you put the _hob_ where the sink currently is? [I vaguely recollect
that I may even have seen ones that are specifically designed to fit
into this kind of space.] You then have room for a full double bowl
sink with a drainer (if you want one) extending away from the hob. The
dishwasher can go under the drainer (under where the hob now lives) and
there should still be space for the washing machine next to it. Or the
washing machine could stay at the plinth heater position.

Nice though a full size double-bowl sink is, a 1.5bowl sink might
actually fit better as it would give you a chunk of space between the
hob and the first sink bowl.


David

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Andy Hall wrote:



Sorry not to be clear. If you put the hob on the oven side, you have
to cross the thoroughfare between the breakfast room and the end with
the two doors (is that the access to the rest of the house and the
back door?).

Doors into carport (which is what the over-sink window looks onto) and back garden are through
the arch on the left and right respectively. The doors at the opposite end of the corridor that
calls itself a kitchen, with hinges adjacent, are into dining room and entrance hall.



If small children, cats,..... run through it seems
dangerous to me. You have the oven on that side anyway, but I
believe that conventional wisdom is that the danger is hot pans from
hob to sink. That happens a lot.

Agree



Typically you want some worktop between hob and sink if you can.

What I was looking at was trying to get the sink along the run under
the window.

To be honest I actually considered blocking up the window - as I said above it looks onto a
carport and beyond that our neighbour's end wall.





Don't ignore the notion of having two separate sinks even if one is
smallish - fitting a 400 or 500 mm unit - and the other a bit larger.
Might be a useful idea - I'm not sure.

Interesting. I'll not exclude it.

I didn't realise that the kickspace heater would wipe out the unit
from being used for an appliance.

I'm not certain that the Kickspace heater does preclude fitting an appliance into the same
cabinet. I made an assumption.


Freeing that space up does seem
to be the key to making this work.

Absolutely.



Considering that the room is contiguous with the breakfast room, I
wonder whether increasing the radiator size in there would be worth
considering if you need it.

The only heating in the breakfast room, which the previous owners built as an extension at a time
when the boiler was in the kitchen (in the corner to the left of our current cooker - I think
that you can just see the remains of the flue projecting from the wall, is provided by a wall
mounted gas heater. The old boiler was so badly insulated that they had no need for additional
heating in the kitchen! Now that we have a new CH system (albeit powered by a Potterton Suprima
100) there is no boiler in the kitchen. I found the Kickspace heater when we were in discussion
with the plumber about rads in the kitchen as a better alternative to a space hungry wall rad.
It kicks out loads of heat and the cats cluster round it. Unfortunately it is rather noisy, but
this may be because it is only resting on an old doormat before it is built into the kitchen.



The only thing to consider with UFH in
the kitchen is that there may be times when a lot of cooking is
happening and you want to reduce it. That takes time.

SWMBO may not consider this a disadvantage. She suffers badly from cramp in her feet when
walking on cold floors, and this only happens in the kitchen in this house (even when wearing
footware).



While I think of it, I think that having the extraction to outside,
considering that the room is open plan is an important point.

Yes





You could even put the dishwasher under the corner where you have the
sink shown now. It loses a bit of corner storage space relative to
a standard 600mm cupboard but overall it may not make a huge
difference.

You might have to build some mounting arrangement inside the corner
cupboard to take the appliance, but it should be do-able.


Worth thinking about.



.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Thanks for sparing time to consider this problem,

You're very welcome.


Best regards Richard


.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

David,

David Micklem wrote:

In article , Richard Savage
wrote:

To join in (very) late:

Are you absolutely set on a 900 wide hob?

Yep,

Big Neff gas thing - 5 burners, 3 at the rear and 2 at the front; pot space
in between the front two burners. Stainless steel surface.



ISTM that it would be nice to have, running along the 'bottom' wall"

Space between wall and hob (0.5), Hob (1), Dishwasher (1), 1.5-2bowl
sink with drainer extending over corner (3), where the numbers in
brackets are 600mm unit widths and give a total of 5.5, which I think
is what you have available.
If you could stand a slimline dishwasher, that would also increase your
options

Washing machine to go where plinth heater won't be.

Unfortunately, this puts the sink just offset from the window, and
would muck up your overhead cupboard plan. It also might mean you had
to have a normal boring right-angle in the corner instead of a swish
modern cut-corner. Not sure. Its late. I don't suppose you could
move/enlarge the window so that it balanced the sink better? (Or is it
just me that likes to look out of the window while at the sink...)

To be honest the sink will only be used sporadically, i.e. for big stuff
that won't go in the D/W and so it need not be located near the window. In
any event, the window looks onto a carport.



For a really off-the-wall idea... could you have the dishwasher and or
washing machine UNDER the hob?? Hobs don't seem to need to extend below
the thickness of the work surface. Probably against the rules.

The plan is to put 3 full width draws under the hob for cooking weapons.
It's an ALNO kitchen but, having spoken to NEFF they (ALNO) are not sure
whether the top draw will be useable because of the depth of the hob.




Must go to bed.

David

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Many thanks Richard

David Micklem wrote:


Funny what a nights sleep will do... I had an alternative idea
sometime during the night which might suit (and which I think is much
better):

Can you put the _hob_ where the sink currently is? [I vaguely recollect
that I may even have seen ones that are specifically designed to fit
into this kind of space.] You then have room for a full double bowl
sink with a drainer (if you want one) extending away from the hob. The
dishwasher can go under the drainer (under where the hob now lives) and
there should still be space for the washing machine next to it. Or the
washing machine could stay at the plinth heater position.

Nice though a full size double-bowl sink is, a 1.5bowl sink might
actually fit better as it would give you a chunk of space between the
hob and the first sink bowl.

David

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All worth considering!

Cheers Richard

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 18:02:18 +0000, Richard Savage
wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:



Sorry not to be clear. If you put the hob on the oven side, you have
to cross the thoroughfare between the breakfast room and the end with
the two doors (is that the access to the rest of the house and the
back door?).

Doors into carport (which is what the over-sink window looks onto) and back garden are through
the arch on the left and right respectively. The doors at the opposite end of the corridor that
calls itself a kitchen, with hinges adjacent, are into dining room and entrance hall.



If small children, cats,..... run through it seems
dangerous to me. You have the oven on that side anyway, but I
believe that conventional wisdom is that the danger is hot pans from
hob to sink. That happens a lot.

Agree



Typically you want some worktop between hob and sink if you can.

What I was looking at was trying to get the sink along the run under
the window.

To be honest I actually considered blocking up the window - as I said above it looks onto a
carport and beyond that our neighbour's end wall.


I wouldn't do that. Working with artificial light the whole time in
a kitchen is a bit horrible.





Don't ignore the notion of having two separate sinks even if one is
smallish - fitting a 400 or 500 mm unit - and the other a bit larger.
Might be a useful idea - I'm not sure.

Interesting. I'll not exclude it.

I didn't realise that the kickspace heater would wipe out the unit
from being used for an appliance.

I'm not certain that the Kickspace heater does preclude fitting an appliance into the same
cabinet. I made an assumption.

I think so. You have built under and built in appliances available
and they appear to be full unit height including legs. I might be
wrong there though.


Freeing that space up does seem
to be the key to making this work.

Absolutely.



Considering that the room is contiguous with the breakfast room, I
wonder whether increasing the radiator size in there would be worth
considering if you need it.

The only heating in the breakfast room, which the previous owners built as an extension at a time
when the boiler was in the kitchen (in the corner to the left of our current cooker - I think
that you can just see the remains of the flue projecting from the wall, is provided by a wall
mounted gas heater. The old boiler was so badly insulated that they had no need for additional
heating in the kitchen! Now that we have a new CH system (albeit powered by a Potterton Suprima
100) there is no boiler in the kitchen. I found the Kickspace heater when we were in discussion
with the plumber about rads in the kitchen as a better alternative to a space hungry wall rad.
It kicks out loads of heat and the cats cluster round it. Unfortunately it is rather noisy, but
this may be because it is only resting on an old doormat before it is built into the kitchen.


They are a bit. Hence the idea of something in the breakfast room.




The only thing to consider with UFH in
the kitchen is that there may be times when a lot of cooking is
happening and you want to reduce it. That takes time.

SWMBO may not consider this a disadvantage. She suffers badly from cramp in her feet when
walking on cold floors, and this only happens in the kitchen in this house (even when wearing
footware).


OK. Then you will need to think about that at an early stage.
If you are thinking about electric UFH, then I don't believe that it
incurs too much depth in addition to the tiles. Obviously any wet
plumbed version does. Bear in mind that if you use electric UFH and
don't have insulation underneath it could be a bit expensive to run.
The house may already have insulation under the concrete of
course.....

If you are going to go the whole hog on this it would imply digging
out the screed or raising the floor level. This may not appeal too
much.

How about using two plinth heaters in different places run at low
settings?

If you have access to the heating pipes near the oven, how about
putting one run from that in the corner near the oven. You have
plinth space there and it would also be a lot less expensive to run
than the electric one. You could perhaps use a CH powered one most
of the time and boost it with the electric one when needed.
Also, considering the shape of the room, it would give you some warmth
more evenly distributed.




While I think of it, I think that having the extraction to outside,
considering that the room is open plan is an important point.

Yes





You could even put the dishwasher under the corner where you have the
sink shown now. It loses a bit of corner storage space relative to
a standard 600mm cupboard but overall it may not make a huge
difference.

You might have to build some mounting arrangement inside the corner
cupboard to take the appliance, but it should be do-able.


Worth thinking about.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andy Hall wrote:


OK. Then you will need to think about that at an early stage.
If you are thinking about electric UFH, then I don't believe that it
incurs too much depth in addition to the tiles. Obviously any wet
plumbed version does. Bear in mind that if you use electric UFH and
don't have insulation underneath it could be a bit expensive to run.
The house may already have insulation under the concrete of
course.....

No chance! Built in 1951-ish under Building Control Licence conditions. As I understand it this
means built under what amounted to wartime rationing conditions with the cheapest possible materials
and total absence of quality control. Anyone want to buy a house near Sevenoaks?



If you are going to go the whole hog on this it would imply digging
out the screed or raising the floor level. This may not appeal too
much.

Yers, we are going to give it some serious thought.



How about using two plinth heaters in different places run at low
settings?

If you have access to the heating pipes near the oven, how about
putting one run from that in the corner near the oven. You have
plinth space there and it would also be a lot less expensive to run
than the electric one.

Funnily enough the Kickspace was originally installed in the oven corner. The pipe tails are still in
place. I moved it to the current location because it raised the temperature of the kitchen area
rapidly to quiet uncomfortable levels ( I know that I can include a thermostat in the mains supply)
and, strangely, very little of the warmth reached the breakfast room. In its current location the
heat reaches both rooms.



.andy

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Thanks Andy,

Regards Richard