Roughly how much would I expect to pay for an electrician to provide a
signed BS7671 electrical safety certificate?

The Internet is a little confusing; I have read that it is illegal to
issue a BS7671 certificate if you didn't do the installation.

I also read that an Electrical Installation Condition Report (EICR) should
be all you need although this isn't included on the form.

I also read that the local Council should be able to certify but then read
that they won't usually (perhaps).

https://www.mybuilder.com/questions/...y-of-a-part-p-
certificate,-bs7671-certificate,

The work relates to modernising the kitchen electrics (discussed yeah
these many years ago on this forum; probably around 2006).

Any advice on the most cost effective route?

Cheers


Dave R

--
Windows 8.1 on PCSpecialist box

On 24/08/16 14:19, David wrote:
Roughly how much would I expect to pay for an electrician to provide a
signed BS7671 electrical safety certificate?

The Internet is a little confusing; I have read that it is illegal to
issue a BS7671 certificate if you didn't do the installation.

I also read that an Electrical Installation Condition Report (EICR) should
be all you need although this isn't included on the form.

I also read that the local Council should be able to certify but then read
that they won't usually (perhaps).

https://www.mybuilder.com/questions/...y-of-a-part-p-
certificate,-bs7671-certificate,

The work relates to modernising the kitchen electrics (discussed yeah
these many years ago on this forum; probably around 2006).

Any advice on the most cost effective route?

Cheers


Dave R

Neighbour paid around 150 for a report and about 450 to do the
necessarry remedial work



--
The biggest threat to humanity comes from socialism, which has utterly
diverted our attention away from what really matters to our existential
survival, to indulging in navel gazing and faux moral investigations
into what the world ought to be, whilst we fail utterly to deal with
what it actually is.

In article , The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
On 24/08/16 14:19, David wrote:
Roughly how much would I expect to pay for an electrician to provide a
signed BS7671 electrical safety certificate?

The Internet is a little confusing; I have read that it is illegal to
issue a BS7671 certificate if you didn't do the installation.

I also read that an Electrical Installation Condition Report (EICR)
should be all you need although this isn't included on the form.

I also read that the local Council should be able to certify but then
read that they won't usually (perhaps).

https://www.mybuilder.com/questions/...y-of-a-part-p-
certificate,-bs7671-certificate,

The work relates to modernising the kitchen electrics (discussed yeah
these many years ago on this forum; probably around 2006).

Any advice on the most cost effective route?

Cheers


Dave R

Neighbour paid around 150 for a report and about 450 to do the
necessarry remedial work

was the work done before or after the cetificate was issued?

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On 24/08/16 14:50, charles wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
On 24/08/16 14:19, David wrote:
Roughly how much would I expect to pay for an electrician to provide a
signed BS7671 electrical safety certificate?

The Internet is a little confusing; I have read that it is illegal to
issue a BS7671 certificate if you didn't do the installation.

I also read that an Electrical Installation Condition Report (EICR)
should be all you need although this isn't included on the form.

I also read that the local Council should be able to certify but then
read that they won't usually (perhaps).

https://www.mybuilder.com/questions/...y-of-a-part-p-
certificate,-bs7671-certificate,

The work relates to modernising the kitchen electrics (discussed yeah
these many years ago on this forum; probably around 2006).

Any advice on the most cost effective route?

Cheers


Dave R

Neighbour paid around 150 for a report and about 450 to do the
necessarry remedial work

was the work done before or after the cetificate was issued?

The 150 was to fully test/inspect to establish what needed doing, the
450 on top was to do a lot of work - new consumer unit, run lots of
earth wires, replaces some dodgy wiring.

But I would say that around 150-200 to just test and signoff if all OK.




--
Karl Marx said religion is the opium of the people.
But Marxism is the crack cocaine.

On Wed, 24 Aug 2016 13:19:22 +0000, David wrote:

Roughly how much would I expect to pay for an electrician to provide a
signed BS7671 electrical safety certificate?

The Internet is a little confusing; I have read that it is illegal to
issue a BS7671 certificate if you didn't do the installation.

I also read that an Electrical Installation Condition Report (EICR)
should be all you need although this isn't included on the form.

I also read that the local Council should be able to certify but then
read that they won't usually (perhaps).

https://www.mybuilder.com/questions/...opy-of-a-part-
p-
certificate,-bs7671-certificate,

The work relates to modernising the kitchen electrics (discussed yeah
these many years ago on this forum; probably around 2006).

Any advice on the most cost effective route?

Just to add that I have located a certificate for the part of the work
which was wiring in the new boiler, upgrading the fuses from wire to plug
in RCD, and some earth bonding.

Does the fact that an electrician signed off this installation imply that
the rest of the system was safe at the time of the upgrade?

I would assume there is a reasonable argument as the upgrade of the fuse
box was a required part of the work (required by the electrician).

Cheers


Dave R


--
Windows 8.1 on PCSpecialist box

On 24/08/16 14:19, David wrote:
Roughly how much would I expect to pay for an electrician to provide a
signed BS7671 electrical safety certificate?

The Internet is a little confusing; I have read that it is illegal to
issue a BS7671 certificate if you didn't do the installation.

I also read that an Electrical Installation Condition Report (EICR) should
be all you need although this isn't included on the form.

I also read that the local Council should be able to certify but then read
that they won't usually (perhaps).

https://www.mybuilder.com/questions/...y-of-a-part-p-
certificate,-bs7671-certificate,

The work relates to modernising the kitchen electrics (discussed yeah
these many years ago on this forum; probably around 2006).

Any advice on the most cost effective route?

Cheers


Dave R


What you are asking for is probably an EICR (Electrical Installation
Condition Report) - what used to be called a "PIR".

Anyone can do this on any existing installation. It is not the same as
signing off an EIC (Installation Certificate).

Costs will be from £100-150 for a flat to £200-300 for a typical house.
You will get ALL circuits tested (insulation resistance and continuity
and limited visual inspection as well as verifying the earthing and bonding.

You will not get 100% of the installation checked as much of the cabling
will be inaccessible.

On Wednesday, 24 August 2016 15:51:46 UTC+1, David wrote:
Does the fact that an electrician signed off this installation imply that
the rest of the system was safe at the time of the upgrade?

No.

The installation (or minor works) certificate only relates to the new work stated on it.

The electrician should not have *knowingly* reconnected *unsafe* wiring to the new consumer unit, but that does not mean the wiring was safe. In particular there may be defects which were not visible and not apparent on testing, eg bare live wires under the floorboards but which nevertheless pass an insulation test. Old rubber wiring can also pass an insulation test if not disturbed, but can crumble at a gentle touch.

"upgrading the fuses from wire to plug in RCD," doesn't quite make sense either.

Owain

On Wed, 24 Aug 2016 09:32:41 -0700, spuorgelgoog wrote:

On Wednesday, 24 August 2016 15:51:46 UTC+1, David wrote:
Does the fact that an electrician signed off this installation imply
that the rest of the system was safe at the time of the upgrade?

No.

The installation (or minor works) certificate only relates to the new
work stated on it.

The electrician should not have *knowingly* reconnected *unsafe* wiring
to the new consumer unit, but that does not mean the wiring was safe. In
particular there may be defects which were not visible and not apparent
on testing, eg bare live wires under the floorboards but which
nevertheless pass an insulation test. Old rubber wiring can also pass an
insulation test if not disturbed, but can crumble at a gentle touch.

"upgrading the fuses from wire to plug in RCD," doesn't quite make sense
either.

Owain

Well, it does make sense if you have seen an old fuse board which takes
traditional ceramic fuses with fuse wire fitted (twin prongs out of the
back) with plug in circuit beakers also with twin prongs out of the back.

This allows you to dispense with fuse wire and have resettable breakers
without having to replace the CU.

Hmmm.. Screwfix lists them as MCBs (minature circuit breakers).

http://www.screwfix.com/p/wylex-16a-sp-type-b-curve-mcb/34544

So, yeah, I assumed they were RCDs but perhaps not.

Cheers

Dave R



--
Windows 8.1 on PCSpecialist box

David wrote:
Roughly how much would I expect to pay for an electrician to provide a
signed BS7671 electrical safety certificate?

The Internet is a little confusing; I have read that it is illegal to
issue a BS7671 certificate if you didn't do the installation.

I also read that an Electrical Installation Condition Report (EICR) should
be all you need although this isn't included on the form.

I also read that the local Council should be able to certify but then read
that they won't usually (perhaps).

https://www.mybuilder.com/questions/...y-of-a-part-p-
certificate,-bs7671-certificate,

The work relates to modernising the kitchen electrics (discussed yeah
these many years ago on this forum; probably around 2006).

Any advice on the most cost effective route?

Cheers


Dave R



Don't tell anybody!

On 24/08/2016 14:19, David wrote:

Roughly how much would I expect to pay for an electrician to provide a
signed BS7671 electrical safety certificate?

Depends on what its for, and what you are hoping to achieve.

The Internet is a little confusing; I have read that it is illegal to
issue a BS7671 certificate if you didn't do the installation.

You may be conflating several issues here. This sounds like a reference
to part P. It *used* to be the case that the only ways of complying with
part P was to have work certificated by a competent person who also
carried out the work, or to have it signed off by building control
following submission of a building notice (or full plans).

This was generally daft since it did not permit getting someone to check
and sign off other peoples work, which is precisely what most building
control departments needed since they do not usually have the in house
skills to do the inspection themselves. It also precluded a DIYer from
doing something and then getting it signed off without the local
authority building control department getting involved.

The latest revision of part P improved matters greatly - firstly by
dispensing with a number of the requirements from earlier versions, and
it also introduced the option for a third party inspection, carried out
by someone who is a member of an appropriate scheme for said testing.
(needless to say this will be a different set of qualifications from
those required to actually do the work, and so is a new gravy train for
some of the approvals bodies!)

(some of whom threw their toys out of the pram saying they would not
support these schemes since it would be bad for their members - I am not
sure how that has panned out)

I also read that an Electrical Installation Condition Report (EICR) should
be all you need although this isn't included on the form.

If you want to establish if a installation is basically sound, then yes.

I also read that the local Council should be able to certify but then read
that they won't usually (perhaps).

If notified (and paid) before the work is done.

https://www.mybuilder.com/questions/...y-of-a-part-p-
certificate,-bs7671-certificate,

The work relates to modernising the kitchen electrics (discussed yeah
these many years ago on this forum; probably around 2006).

Kitchens are no longer a special location under the scope of part P...

As I said it depends on what you want to achieve - check and install is
ok, or have a bit of paper to wave to say its been anointed with the oil
of legal are covering.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
wrote:
On Wednesday, 24 August 2016 15:51:46 UTC+1, David wrote:
Does the fact that an electrician signed off this installation imply
that the rest of the system was safe at the time of the upgrade?

No.

The installation (or minor works) certificate only relates to the new
work stated on it.

The electrician should not have *knowingly* reconnected *unsafe* wiring
to the new consumer unit, but that does not mean the wiring was safe. In
particular there may be defects which were not visible and not apparent
on testing, eg bare live wires under the floorboards but which
nevertheless pass an insulation test. Old rubber wiring can also pass an
insulation test if not disturbed, but can crumble at a gentle touch.

"upgrading the fuses from wire to plug in RCD," doesn't quite make sense
either.

It does if it was a Wylex CU. They were designed with that in mind.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On Wed, 24 Aug 2016 18:23:05 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 24/08/2016 14:19, David wrote:

Roughly how much would I expect to pay for an electrician to provide a
signed BS7671 electrical safety certificate?

Depends on what its for, and what you are hoping to achieve.

The Internet is a little confusing; I have read that it is illegal to
issue a BS7671 certificate if you didn't do the installation.

You may be conflating several issues here. This sounds like a reference
to part P. It *used* to be the case that the only ways of complying with
part P was to have work certificated by a competent person who also
carried out the work, or to have it signed off by building control
following submission of a building notice (or full plans).

This was generally daft since it did not permit getting someone to check
and sign off other peoples work, which is precisely what most building
control departments needed since they do not usually have the in house
skills to do the inspection themselves. It also precluded a DIYer from
doing something and then getting it signed off without the local
authority building control department getting involved.

The latest revision of part P improved matters greatly - firstly by
dispensing with a number of the requirements from earlier versions, and
it also introduced the option for a third party inspection, carried out
by someone who is a member of an appropriate scheme for said testing.
(needless to say this will be a different set of qualifications from
those required to actually do the work, and so is a new gravy train for
some of the approvals bodies!)

(some of whom threw their toys out of the pram saying they would not
support these schemes since it would be bad for their members - I am not
sure how that has panned out)

I also read that an Electrical Installation Condition Report (EICR)
should be all you need although this isn't included on the form.

If you want to establish if a installation is basically sound, then yes.

I also read that the local Council should be able to certify but then
read that they won't usually (perhaps).

If notified (and paid) before the work is done.

https://www.mybuilder.com/questions/...opy-of-a-part-
p-
certificate,-bs7671-certificate,

The work relates to modernising the kitchen electrics (discussed yeah
these many years ago on this forum; probably around 2006).

Kitchens are no longer a special location under the scope of part P...

As I said it depends on what you want to achieve - check and install is
ok, or have a bit of paper to wave to say its been anointed with the oil
of legal are covering.

Answering a question on one of the standard house sale forms.

As far as I can tell "did it, didn't have it checked" seems to be accepted
in most cases.

Just being forewarned if the buyer gets picky.

As with all things concerning legal boiler plate the paperwork may be well
out of date.

Much of it certainly doesn't pass any strict logical analysis.

Cheers


Dave R



--
Windows 8.1 on PCSpecialist box

On Wed, 24 Aug 2016 18:16:03 +0100, Capitol wrote:

David wrote:
Roughly how much would I expect to pay for an electrician to provide a
signed BS7671 electrical safety certificate?

The Internet is a little confusing; I have read that it is illegal to
issue a BS7671 certificate if you didn't do the installation.

I also read that an Electrical Installation Condition Report (EICR) should
be all you need although this isn't included on the form.

I also read that the local Council should be able to certify but then read
that they won't usually (perhaps).

https://www.mybuilder.com/questions/...y-of-a-part-p-
certificate,-bs7671-certificate,

The work relates to modernising the kitchen electrics (discussed yeah
these many years ago on this forum; probably around 2006).

Any advice on the most cost effective route?

Cheers


Dave R



Don't tell anybody!

I assume he's renting a flat or something, nobody in their right mind would bother on their own home.

--
The Royal Family have been declared bankrupt after receiving Richard III's parking fine.

On 24/08/16 19:37, David wrote:
Answering a question on one of the standard house sale forms.

As far as I can tell "did it, didn't have it checked" seems to be accepted
in most cases.

Just being forewarned if the buyer gets picky.


It's the buyers mortgage company that may get picky: they want pukka
insurance and the insurance may insist on a safe electrical wiring
certificate.


As with all things concerning legal boiler plate the paperwork may be well
out of date.

Much of it certainly doesn't pass any strict logical analysis.


--
Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.

On Wednesday, 24 August 2016 18:28:41 UTC+1, charles wrote:
"upgrading the fuses from wire to plug in RCD," doesn't quite make sense
either.
It does if it was a Wylex CU. They were designed with that in mind.

Not with plug in RCDs they weren't :-)

Owain

In article ,
charles writes:
In article ,
wrote:
On Wednesday, 24 August 2016 15:51:46 UTC+1, David wrote:
Does the fact that an electrician signed off this installation imply
that the rest of the system was safe at the time of the upgrade?

No.

The installation (or minor works) certificate only relates to the new
work stated on it.

The electrician should not have *knowingly* reconnected *unsafe* wiring
to the new consumer unit, but that does not mean the wiring was safe. In
particular there may be defects which were not visible and not apparent
on testing, eg bare live wires under the floorboards but which
nevertheless pass an insulation test. Old rubber wiring can also pass an
insulation test if not disturbed, but can crumble at a gentle touch.

"upgrading the fuses from wire to plug in RCD," doesn't quite make sense
either.

It does if it was a Wylex CU. They were designed with that in mind.

You can swap out a Wylex BS 3036 rewirable fuse for a plug-in *MCB*,
but that's not possible for an *RCD*. You will need to cut a hole in
the cover as the MCB sticks out further.

Note that these plug-in MCB's tend to have a relatively low breaking
current compared with original fit MCBs (and extremely low for the
original push-button ones).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Wednesday, 24 August 2016 19:37:10 UTC+1, David wrote:
On Wed, 24 Aug 2016 18:23:05 +0100, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/08/2016 14:19, David wrote:

Roughly how much would I expect to pay for an electrician to provide a
signed BS7671 electrical safety certificate?

As I said it depends on what you want to achieve - check and install is
ok, or have a bit of paper to wave to say its been anointed with the oil
of legal are covering.

Answering a question on one of the standard house sale forms.

then it's all a nonissue.

As far as I can tell "did it, didn't have it checked" seems to be accepted
in most cases.

yes. Buyers may use it as a bargaining point to knock 200 off for a dodgy insurance scheme. If the job was done 4+ years ago such insurance is of no possible value. If more recent, it's of almost no value.

Just being forewarned if the buyer gets picky.

it's normal for houses to come with unchecked electrics. If buyers want to pay an overpriced painted person to come & do the dance then write pages of disclaimers they can.

As with all things concerning legal boiler plate the paperwork may be well
out of date.

Much of it certainly doesn't pass any strict logical analysis.

no. It's a profitable game for some. For the ignorant buyer they can be fleeced or take a minor risk. Most pick the latter.


NT

On 24/08/2016 19:37, David wrote:
On Wed, 24 Aug 2016 18:23:05 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 24/08/2016 14:19, David wrote:

Roughly how much would I expect to pay for an electrician to provide a
signed BS7671 electrical safety certificate?

Depends on what its for, and what you are hoping to achieve.

The Internet is a little confusing; I have read that it is illegal to
issue a BS7671 certificate if you didn't do the installation.

You may be conflating several issues here. This sounds like a reference
to part P. It *used* to be the case that the only ways of complying with
part P was to have work certificated by a competent person who also
carried out the work, or to have it signed off by building control
following submission of a building notice (or full plans).

This was generally daft since it did not permit getting someone to check
and sign off other peoples work, which is precisely what most building
control departments needed since they do not usually have the in house
skills to do the inspection themselves. It also precluded a DIYer from
doing something and then getting it signed off without the local
authority building control department getting involved.

The latest revision of part P improved matters greatly - firstly by
dispensing with a number of the requirements from earlier versions, and
it also introduced the option for a third party inspection, carried out
by someone who is a member of an appropriate scheme for said testing.
(needless to say this will be a different set of qualifications from
those required to actually do the work, and so is a new gravy train for
some of the approvals bodies!)

(some of whom threw their toys out of the pram saying they would not
support these schemes since it would be bad for their members - I am not
sure how that has panned out)

I also read that an Electrical Installation Condition Report (EICR)
should be all you need although this isn't included on the form.

If you want to establish if a installation is basically sound, then yes.

I also read that the local Council should be able to certify but then
read that they won't usually (perhaps).

If notified (and paid) before the work is done.

https://www.mybuilder.com/questions/...opy-of-a-part-
p-
certificate,-bs7671-certificate,

The work relates to modernising the kitchen electrics (discussed yeah
these many years ago on this forum; probably around 2006).

Kitchens are no longer a special location under the scope of part P...

As I said it depends on what you want to achieve - check and install is
ok, or have a bit of paper to wave to say its been anointed with the oil
of legal are covering.

Answering a question on one of the standard house sale forms.

As far as I can tell "did it, didn't have it checked" seems to be accepted
in most cases.

Just being forewarned if the buyer gets picky.

As with all things concerning legal boiler plate the paperwork may be well
out of date.

Much of it certainly doesn't pass any strict logical analysis.

The principle get out on those forms is "I don't know"...


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

The thing is for many many years there seems to have been no such testing
other than that done by the electrician at the time of installation and
over some years specs and practices change, some for the better some for no
apparent reason.
I do sometimes wonder as long as rudimentary checks are done from time to
time with a little knowledge of basics if the papers and certificates one
gets are any more confidence building than your own tests. of course if you
are selling the property you need all that stuff, but if not, I do wonder.
Just me being cynical.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 24/08/16 14:19, David wrote:
Roughly how much would I expect to pay for an electrician to provide a
signed BS7671 electrical safety certificate?

The Internet is a little confusing; I have read that it is illegal to
issue a BS7671 certificate if you didn't do the installation.

I also read that an Electrical Installation Condition Report (EICR)
should
be all you need although this isn't included on the form.

I also read that the local Council should be able to certify but then
read
that they won't usually (perhaps).

https://www.mybuilder.com/questions/...y-of-a-part-p-
certificate,-bs7671-certificate,

The work relates to modernising the kitchen electrics (discussed yeah
these many years ago on this forum; probably around 2006).

Any advice on the most cost effective route?

Cheers


Dave R

Neighbour paid around 150 for a report and about 450 to do the necessarry
remedial work



--
The biggest threat to humanity comes from socialism, which has utterly
diverted our attention away from what really matters to our existential
survival, to indulging in navel gazing and faux moral investigations into
what the world ought to be, whilst we fail utterly to deal with what it
actually is.

Brian Gaff explained on 25/08/2016 :
The thing is for many many years there seems to have been no such testing
other than that done by the electrician at the time of installation and over
some years specs and practices change, some for the better some for no
apparent reason.
I do sometimes wonder as long as rudimentary checks are done from time to
time with a little knowledge of basics if the papers and certificates one
gets are any more confidence building than your own tests. of course if you
are selling the property you need all that stuff, but if not, I do wonder.
Just me being cynical.

My own view is that 95% of an installation is hidden and inaccessible,
so no brief inspection can really be as thorough as needed. Only what
can be seen, can be inspected - for the rest you rely on what bit you
can see and adequately test.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

On Sunday, 28 August 2016 12:01:51 UTC+1, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

My own view is that 95% of an installation is hidden and inaccessible,

and testable from the ends.

so no brief inspection can really be as thorough as needed. Only what

No. Testing can though

can be seen, can be inspected - for the rest you rely on what bit you
can see and adequately test.

and the cabling you can't see and can adequately test.


NT

On 28/08/2016 12:01, Harry Bloomfield wrote:



My own view is that 95% of an installation is hidden and inaccessible,
so no brief inspection can really be as thorough as needed. Only what
can be seen, can be inspected - for the rest you rely on what bit you
can see and adequately test.


Don't I know it!
Bloody ring main has a live fault.
You would think its going to be a loose screw but no all the screw and
terminations are correct!
Now AFAIK there isn't a junction between the last good socket and the
next one so what are the odds of a cable fault?

I think it will become a radial as I don't fancy ripping walls down ATM.

On 28/08/2016 20:01, dennis@home wrote:
On 28/08/2016 12:01, Harry Bloomfield wrote:



My own view is that 95% of an installation is hidden and inaccessible,
so no brief inspection can really be as thorough as needed. Only what
can be seen, can be inspected - for the rest you rely on what bit you
can see and adequately test.


Don't I know it!
Bloody ring main has a live fault.
You would think its going to be a loose screw but no all the screw and
terminations are correct!
Now AFAIK there isn't a junction between the last good socket and the
next one so what are the odds of a cable fault?

If there's a cable break, is it perhaps near where it's terminated? It
gets bent round into the junction box, so that's a point of maximum strain.



I think it will become a radial as I don't fancy ripping walls down ATM.

GB laid this down on his screen :
If there's a cable break, is it perhaps near where it's terminated? It gets
bent round into the junction box, so that's a point of maximum strain.

+1

A volt stick might help trace it or a tone generator.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

On 29/08/2016 13:17, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
GB laid this down on his screen :
If there's a cable break, is it perhaps near where it's terminated? It
gets bent round into the junction box, so that's a point of maximum
strain.

+1

A volt stick might help trace it or a tone generator.


A volt stick might work if the cables were on the surface but not in a wall.

A tone generator sounds like it might work, if I had one.
Lets go shopping.