Ovo energy supplier wants to fit Smart Meters but just like to ask if
there are any snags/watchit warning etc etc before agreeing (seems I
have a choice - which is nice). At the 'mo we jsut have the famous
spinning disc for elec and a gas meter.

I see they use a 'phone-type WAN to send the data to supplier - good
if secure I suppose.

On 22/08/2016 18:08, mike wrote:
I see they use a 'phone-type WAN to send the data to supplier - good
if secure I suppose.

Well, that's the big if.

The other thing is - why do you want one?

Andy

mike wrote:

Ovo energy supplier wants to fit Smart Meters

People have probably got fed-up trotting out their pros and cons,
nothing has changed since the last time it was asked ...

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/uk.d-i-y/smartmeter$20%7Csort:relevance

mike wrote:
Ovo energy supplier wants to fit Smart Meters


NO NO NO!!!!!

but just like to ask if
there are any snags/watchit warning etc etc before agreeing (seems I
have a choice - which is nice). At the 'mo we jsut have the famous
spinning disc for elec and a gas meter.

I see they use a 'phone-type WAN to send the data to supplier - good
if secure I suppose.

On Mon, 22 Aug 2016 22:26:44 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

mike wrote:

Ovo energy supplier wants to fit Smart Meters

People have probably got fed-up trotting out their pros and cons,
nothing has changed since the last time it was asked ...

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/uk.d-i-y/smartmeter$20%7Csort:relevance



Thanks - well i asked 'cos i don't live on ng's. But as I say, thanks
anyway for the link - and glad I took a look. To save anyone else
asking rsn - here's a few reasons from that link to NOT go for it.

***
I am getting one next week - complete with wi-fi connection to my
router.
Does anyone have such, and any comments on it?
Dave Liquorice
....
I am getting one next week - complete with wi-fi connection to my
router.

They want to use your WiFi and presumably net connection? Is this for
the meter operators useage upload and control of the meter?

F. that for a game of soldiers. If their system needs a 'net
connection they can jolly well provide their own or pay me £40/month
to piggy back on mine...

Even if it's only so you can see a pretty web page of useage WiFi APs
aren't free and your firewall/router will need a config change to
deny the the meter net access. You don't know how to do this (do
you...) so you are going to have "call someone out": £75 call out
charge (inc first hour and 50 miles travel) then £25/hour in 15
minute increments rounded up. Shouldn't take 'em more than a couple
of hours.

Only 1/4 in jest...


Is this a fully smart meter ie one that lets OVO read it when they
want
to or simply one to inform you of your personal consumption visa your
home network?

I used to be with OVO but got out when they wanted to charge me £60 to
change to one of their newer tariffs. The charge was the same to move
to
another supplier and £30 cashback when I moved. Plain daft marketing
strategy on their part IMHO.

01/07/2015
- show quoted text -
HA! so if these are fully smart meters, then they can cut you off
remotely. Having done so (maybe in error?) then there will be no wifi
connection to enable them to switch you back on!
Brilliant-- not!

*** etc more on link ***



The reason I wanted to use smart meter was to stop having to grovel
unders the stairs every month to read the two meters. (back troubles).

Let's say you stick a wifi equipped smart meter on your home network.

It has the ability to read every single wifi packet sent or received on
that network and it has the ability to connect to any device anywhere on
the Internet.

Is that really what you want?

99% of your security comes from your router protecting you from attacks
from outside. Normally it will only let through responses to connections
*you* have made.

99% of your wifi security comes from a password that means only devices
you allow to see your internal network, can see it.

Now stick on a box that you allow access to your wifi, and which is
fully connected to the internet?

And probably one that 'upgrades ' itself over the internet?

How ling before it 'upgrades;' itself to a hacked bit of trojan horse
that scans your home network for all the bank details and logins and
email addresses in use.

Of course its possible to build a firewall between 'appliance net' and
'home net' but who has the ability to do that?






--
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such
time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for
the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the
truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

Joseph Goebbels

On 23/08/2016 11:47, The Natural Philosopher wrote:



Let's say you stick a wifi equipped smart meter on your home network.

Lets say you fit one of the smart meters that the companies actually
supply, the ones that don't have WiFi and use the mobile network to send
data back.

You can tell they don't use WiFi because they will ask you what your
mobile reception is like but they don't ask if you have an internet
connection or even a phone line.

You can then safely disregard all the following.


It has the ability to read every single wifi packet sent or received on
that network and it has the ability to connect to any device anywhere on
the Internet.

Is that really what you want?

99% of your security comes from your router protecting you from attacks
from outside. Normally it will only let through responses to connections
*you* have made.

99% of your wifi security comes from a password that means only devices
you allow to see your internal network, can see it.

Now stick on a box that you allow access to your wifi, and which is
fully connected to the internet?

And probably one that 'upgrades ' itself over the internet?

How ling before it 'upgrades;' itself to a hacked bit of trojan horse
that scans your home network for all the bank details and logins and
email addresses in use.

Of course its possible to build a firewall between 'appliance net' and
'home net' but who has the ability to do that?

mike wrote :
I see they use a 'phone-type WAN to send the data to supplier - good
if secure I suppose.

OVO installed SM's here in June...

Pro
1. You know exactly what your consumption is second by second on the
indoor display.
2. You know exactly what your consumption was every 30min, per day, per
week, month recorded/ stored via their web site.
3. You no longer need to look at the readings and let them know, they
are uploaded every night.

Cons
They, or if hacked another, could cut you off in an instant. Risk tiny.

On 23/08/16 14:27, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
mike wrote :
I see they use a 'phone-type WAN to send the data to supplier - good
if secure I suppose.

OVO installed SM's here in June...

Pro
1. You know exactly what your consumption is second by second on the
indoor display.
2. You know exactly what your consumption was every 30min, per day, per
week, month recorded/ stored via their web site.
3. You no longer need to look at the readings and let them know, they
are uploaded every night.

Cons
They, or if hacked another, could cut you off in an instant. Risk tiny.

You no longer need to protect private data on your network, it
is uploaded every night. And is no longer private.

--
"When one man dies it's a tragedy. When thousands die it's statistics."

Josef Stalin

mike used his keyboard to write :
They want to use your WiFi and presumably net connection? Is this for
the meter operators useage upload and control of the meter?

They don't use YOUR LAN or WiFi, they use a mobile sim to phone data
home.

You can then use your PC to log into their web site, to see that data,
or watch the indoor display unit.

The Natural Philosopher formulated the question :
You no longer need to protect private data on your network, it
is uploaded every night. And is no longer private.

But does it really matter?

If someone were really that interested, my gas and leccy cupboards are
outside and if someone so desperately wanted to, the could sneak round
and get my readings directly. All they need is a 10p triangular key and
a pen.

On 23/08/16 14:35, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
mike used his keyboard to write :
They want to use your WiFi and presumably net connection? Is this for
the meter operators useage upload and control of the meter?

They don't use YOUR LAN or WiFi, they use a mobile sim to phone data home.

You can then use your PC to log into their web site, to see that data,
or watch the indoor display unit.

well that at lest is almost secure


--
Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

Ayn Rand.

On 23/08/2016 14:31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 23/08/16 14:27, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
mike wrote :
I see they use a 'phone-type WAN to send the data to supplier - good
if secure I suppose.

OVO installed SM's here in June...

Pro
1. You know exactly what your consumption is second by second on the
indoor display.
2. You know exactly what your consumption was every 30min, per day, per
week, month recorded/ stored via their web site.
3. You no longer need to look at the readings and let them know, they
are uploaded every night.

Cons
They, or if hacked another, could cut you off in an instant. Risk tiny.

You no longer need to protect private data on your network, it
is uploaded every night. And is no longer private.


Some people worry about someone, who is entitled to, reading their meter
readings, others aren't paranoid.

On 23/08/16 14:41, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
The Natural Philosopher formulated the question :
You no longer need to protect private data on your network, it
is uploaded every night. And is no longer private.

But does it really matter?

If someone were really that interested, my gas and leccy cupboards are
outside and if someone so desperately wanted to, the could sneak round
and get my readings directly. All they need is a 10p triangular key and
a pen.

No, you missed my point which wasn't actually a ppint since your meter
doesn't use wifi anyway.

--
No Apple devices were knowingly used in the preparation of this post.

On 23/08/2016 14:55, dennis@home wrote:
On 23/08/2016 14:31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 23/08/16 14:27, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
mike wrote :
I see they use a 'phone-type WAN to send the data to supplier - good
if secure I suppose.

OVO installed SM's here in June...

Pro
1. You know exactly what your consumption is second by second on the
indoor display.
2. You know exactly what your consumption was every 30min, per day, per
week, month recorded/ stored via their web site.
3. You no longer need to look at the readings and let them know, they
are uploaded every night.

Cons
They, or if hacked another, could cut you off in an instant. Risk tiny.

You no longer need to protect private data on your network, it
is uploaded every night. And is no longer private.


Some people worry about someone, who is entitled to, reading their meter
readings, others aren't paranoid.
My meters are also outside, however when they came to fit smart readers
the model they had would not work from my electric meter as the distance
was too great.

On Tuesday, 23 August 2016 14:41:52 UTC+1, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
The Natural Philosopher formulated the question :

You no longer need to protect private data on your network, it
is uploaded every night. And is no longer private.

But does it really matter?

You can work out when people are away on holiday by analysing such data. It's only a matter of time before some criminal organisation does this to pick houses to burgle.

If someone were really that interested, my gas and leccy cupboards are
outside and if someone so desperately wanted to, the could sneak round
and get my readings directly. All they need is a 10p triangular key and
a pen.

Way too labour intensive a way to be workable. A hacker & computer analysing 100,000 homes could however be profitable.

If there's one thing computing history teaches us, it's that some degree of paranoia is warranted with computer data. Of course some never learn.


NT

On 23/08/2016 16:24, wrote:
On Tuesday, 23 August 2016 14:41:52 UTC+1, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
The Natural Philosopher formulated the question :

You no longer need to protect private data on your network, it
is uploaded every night. And is no longer private.

But does it really matter?

You can work out when people are away on holiday by analysing such data. It's only a matter of time before some criminal organisation does this to pick houses to burgle.

If someone were really that interested, my gas and leccy cupboards are
outside and if someone so desperately wanted to, the could sneak round
and get my readings directly. All they need is a 10p triangular key and
a pen.

Way too labour intensive a way to be workable. A hacker & computer analysing 100,000 homes could however be profitable.

If there's one thing computing history teaches us, it's that some degree of paranoia is warranted with computer data. Of course some never learn.


Do you arrange to down- and up-load data over your internet connection
at home while you are away?

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 23/08/2016 14:27, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
mike wrote :
I see they use a 'phone-type WAN to send the data to supplier - good
if secure I suppose.

OVO installed SM's here in June...

Pro
1. You know exactly what your consumption is second by second on the
indoor display.
2. You know exactly what your consumption was every 30min, per day, per
week, month recorded/ stored via their web site.
3. You no longer need to look at the readings and let them know, they
are uploaded every night.

But why would you want to ?. I read my meter regularly, at the same
time and write the value and date on a bit of paper next to the meter.
I know exactly what my daily consumption is summer and winter. All
done with a biro.

Unless they intend to enforce differential charging that varies
unpredictably with supply vs load, I cannot see any point in a
smart meter. It will of course be very useful to collect the
'missing' fuel duty from people who have bought electric cars
with the sole aim to save money, since it will know what
devices are using power.

On 23/08/2016 16:29, Robin wrote:
On 23/08/2016 16:24, wrote:
On Tuesday, 23 August 2016 14:41:52 UTC+1, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
The Natural Philosopher formulated the question :

You no longer need to protect private data on your network, it
is uploaded every night. And is no longer private.

But does it really matter?

You can work out when people are away on holiday by analysing such
data. It's only a matter of time before some criminal organisation
does this to pick houses to burgle.

If someone were really that interested, my gas and leccy cupboards are
outside and if someone so desperately wanted to, the could sneak round
and get my readings directly. All they need is a 10p triangular key and
a pen.

Way too labour intensive a way to be workable. A hacker & computer
analysing 100,000 homes could however be profitable.

If there's one thing computing history teaches us, it's that some
degree of paranoia is warranted with computer data. Of course some
never learn.


Do you arrange to down- and up-load data over your internet connection
at home while you are away?


Someone paranoid enough to worry about smart meters wouldn't use the
internet from home.
They wouldn't have a phone either as the bad guys could phone up to see
if you are home.

dennis@home pretended :
Someone paranoid enough to worry about smart meters wouldn't use the internet
from home.
They wouldn't have a phone either as the bad guys could phone up to see if
you are home.

Precisely, there are so many alternative ways to assess whether you at
home or not and with much greater certainty than checking your
consumption figures.

My Wifi is on and running, my lights come on and go off at appropriate
times, I have cameras keeping an eye on the place and it is alarmed.

Andrew brought next idea :
But why would you want to ?. I read my meter regularly, at the same
time and write the value and date on a bit of paper next to the meter.
I know exactly what my daily consumption is summer and winter. All
done with a biro.

I was doing that and feeding the data into a spreadsheet once per week,
but it really didn't compare to the 30 minute samples I get now, nor
the instantaineous consumption readings via the remote display.

On 23/08/2016 17:50, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
dennis@home pretended :
Someone paranoid enough to worry about smart meters wouldn't use the
internet from home.
They wouldn't have a phone either as the bad guys could phone up to
see if you are home.

Precisely, there are so many alternative ways to assess whether you at
home or not and with much greater certainty than checking your
consumption figures.

My Wifi is on and running, my lights come on and go off at appropriate
times, I have cameras keeping an eye on the place and it is alarmed.

You forgot to mention the pet Black Mamba you leave free to roam the
house

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Tuesday, 23 August 2016 17:50:20 UTC+1, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
dennis@home pretended :

Someone paranoid enough to worry about smart meters wouldn't use the internet
from home.
They wouldn't have a phone either as the bad guys could phone up to see if
you are home.

Precisely, there are so many alternative ways to assess whether you at
home or not and with much greater certainty than checking your
consumption figures.

which are too labour intensive to be worth bothering with. With computer data you can automatically anaylse 100,000 houses at once, and sell 10s of addresses to criminals per day. Means, motive & opportunity.


My Wifi is on and running, my lights come on and go off at appropriate
times, I have cameras keeping an eye on the place and it is alarmed.

When present there's lots of other consumption too. Not too hard to tell them apart.


NT

wrote
Harry Bloomfield wrote
The Natural Philosopher wrote

You no longer need to protect private data on your network,
it is uploaded every night. And is no longer private.

But does it really matter?

You can work out when people are away on holiday by analysing such data.

You can do that by analysing their mobile phone records too. No one bothers.

It's only a matter of time before some criminal
organisation does this to pick houses to burgle.

How odd that it hasnt happened with the mobile phone records.

Or the records of the fuel they buy for the car either.

Or the airline tickets they buy either.

Or the records of what grocerys they buy either.

If someone were really that interested, my gas and leccy
cupboards are outside and if someone so desperately
wanted to, the could sneak round and get my readings
directly. All they need is a 10p triangular key and a pen.

Way too labour intensive a way to be workable. A hacker &
computer analysing 100,000 homes could however be profitable.

See above.

If there's one thing computing history teaches us, it's that
some degree of paranoia is warranted with computer data.

Clearly not with whether some criminal organisation
can work out whether you are away on holiday or not.

Of course some never learn.

And some like you are too stupid to have even noticed
that none of the stuff I listed has ever been used by any
criminal organisation to work out what places to burgle.

Presumably because the absolute vast bulk of the burglary
of individual private residences is done by stupid druggys
funding the drug habits and they dont actually snoop on
that data in the places they work for to make that easier.

wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 23 August 2016 17:50:20 UTC+1, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
dennis@home pretended :

Someone paranoid enough to worry about smart meters wouldn't use the
internet
from home.
They wouldn't have a phone either as the bad guys could phone up to see
if
you are home.

Precisely, there are so many alternative ways to assess whether you at
home or not and with much greater certainty than checking your
consumption figures.

which are too labour intensive to be worth bothering with.
With computer data you can automatically anaylse 100,000
houses at once, and sell 10s of addresses to criminals per day.

Just as true of supermarket checkout data, services station sales records,
airline ticket sales, train ticket sales, hotel bookings, the data govt has
about all those people pouring thru airports etc etc etc.

Means, motive & opportunity.

Waffle.

My Wifi is on and running, my lights come on and go off at appropriate
times, I have cameras keeping an eye on the place and it is alarmed.

When present there's lots of other consumption
too. Not too hard to tell them apart.

Just as true of supermarket checkout data, services station sales records,
airline ticket sales, train ticket sales, hotel bookings, the data govt has
about all those people pouring thru airports etc etc etc.

On Tuesday, 23 August 2016 20:18:27 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
tabbypurr wrote
Harry Bloomfield wrote
The Natural Philosopher wrote

You no longer need to protect private data on your network,
it is uploaded every night. And is no longer private.

But does it really matter?

You can work out when people are away on holiday by analysing such data..

You can do that by analysing their mobile phone records too. No one bothers.

It's only a matter of time before some criminal
organisation does this to pick houses to burgle.

How odd that it hasnt happened with the mobile phone records.

no, those deal with one person, not one house

Or the records of the fuel they buy for the car either.

too spaced out in time, data too disparate etc.

Or the airline tickets they buy either.

is that publicly available? Again travel does not imply an empty house.

Or the records of what grocerys they buy either.

useless for the purpose, and there is no publicly available record


Of course some never learn.

And some like you are too stupid to have even noticed
that none of the stuff I listed has ever been used by any
criminal organisation to work out what places to burgle.

they can't

Presumably because the absolute vast bulk of the burglary
of individual private residences is done by stupid druggys
funding the drug habits

For sure, but there is organised crime too.

If you were a burglar, would data telling you when various houses were empty be of any value? Obviously.


NT

On Tuesday, 23 August 2016 20:38:30 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
tabbypurr wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 23 August 2016 17:50:20 UTC+1, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
dennis@home pretended :

Someone paranoid enough to worry about smart meters wouldn't use the
internet
from home.
They wouldn't have a phone either as the bad guys could phone up to see
if
you are home.

Precisely, there are so many alternative ways to assess whether you at
home or not and with much greater certainty than checking your
consumption figures.

which are too labour intensive to be worth bothering with.
With computer data you can automatically anaylse 100,000
houses at once, and sell 10s of addresses to criminals per day.

Just as true of supermarket checkout data, services station sales records,
airline ticket sales, train ticket sales, hotel bookings, the data govt has
about all those people pouring thru airports etc etc etc.

it isn't... we covered that

Means, motive & opportunity.

Waffle.

if you must

My Wifi is on and running, my lights come on and go off at appropriate
times, I have cameras keeping an eye on the place and it is alarmed.

When present there's lots of other consumption
too. Not too hard to tell them apart.

Just as true of supermarket checkout data, services station sales records,
airline ticket sales, train ticket sales, hotel bookings, the data govt has
about all those people pouring thru airports etc etc etc.

nope. Bye bye Wodney. Enjoy your wet paper bag challenge.

wrote
Rod Speed wrote
tabbypurr wrote
Harry Bloomfield wrote
The Natural Philosopher wrote

You no longer need to protect private data on your network,
it is uploaded every night. And is no longer private.

But does it really matter?

You can work out when people are away on holiday by analysing such data.

You can do that by analysing their mobile phone records too. No one
bothers.

It's only a matter of time before some criminal
organisation does this to pick houses to burgle.

How odd that it hasnt happened with the mobile phone records.

no, those deal with one person, not one house

The phone company normally has a house address to send the bill to.
Anyone with even half a clue who is using a computer to work out
which houses currently have the owner away can get that address
from the phone companys records.

Or the records of the fuel they buy for the car either.

too spaced out in time, data too disparate etc.

Even sillier than you usually manage.

Or the airline tickets they buy either.

is that publicly available?

We arent talking about publicly available, we are discussing
someone trolling the data and working out which houses
will be unoccupied and selling that data to criminals.

Again travel does not imply an empty house.

But those houses are more likely to be unoccupied.

Or the records of what grocerys they buy either.

useless for the purpose,

Bull**** when no one from that house is buying any grocerys.

and there is no publicly available record

We arent talking about publicly available, we are discussing
someone trolling the data and working out which houses
will be unoccupied and selling that data to criminals.

Of course some never learn.

And some like you are too stupid to have even noticed
that none of the stuff I listed has ever been used by any
criminal organisation to work out what places to burgle.

they can't

Corse they can.

Presumably because the absolute vast bulk of
the burglary of individual private residences is
done by stupid druggys funding the drug habits

For sure, but there is organised crime too.

Not with burglary of normal houses there isnt.

If you were a burglar, would data telling you when
various houses were empty be of any value? Obviously.

And yet no one actually uses all those data sources
I listed and flogs lists of those addresses to those
druggys feeding their drug habits by looting houses.

Because its a lot easier for the druggys to just walk
down the street and see which houses look like there
is no one there because the occupants are at work
etc and knock on the door to check that etc etc etc.

wrote
Rod Speed wrote
tabbypurr wrote
Harry Bloomfield wrote
dennis@home wrote

Someone paranoid enough to worry about smart
meters wouldn't use the internet from home.

They wouldn't have a phone either as the bad
guys could phone up to see if you are home.

Precisely, there are so many alternative ways to assess
whether you at home or not and with much greater
certainty than checking your consumption figures.

which are too labour intensive to be worth bothering with.
With computer data you can automatically anaylse 100,000
houses at once, and sell 10s of addresses to criminals per day.

Just as true of supermarket checkout data, services station sales
records,
airline ticket sales, train ticket sales, hotel bookings, the data govt
has
about all those people pouring thru airports etc etc etc.

it isn't...

Wrong.

we covered that

Just how many of you between those ears ?

Means, motive & opportunity.

Waffle.

My Wifi is on and running, my lights come on and go off at appropriate
times, I have cameras keeping an eye on the place and it is alarmed.

When present there's lots of other consumption
too. Not too hard to tell them apart.

Just as true of supermarket checkout data, services station sales
records,
airline ticket sales, train ticket sales, hotel bookings, the data govt
has
about all those people pouring thru airports etc etc etc.

nope.

Yep.

Bye bye Wodney. Enjoy your wet paper bag challenge.

Fat lot of good that will do you, gutless.

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
wrote
Rod Speed wrote
tabbypurr wrote
Harry Bloomfield wrote
The Natural Philosopher wrote

You no longer need to protect private data on your network,
it is uploaded every night. And is no longer private.

But does it really matter?

You can work out when people are away on holiday by analysing such
data.

You can do that by analysing their mobile phone records too. No one
bothers.

It's only a matter of time before some criminal
organisation does this to pick houses to burgle.

How odd that it hasnt happened with the mobile phone records.

no, those deal with one person, not one house

The phone company normally has a house address to send the bill to.
Anyone with even half a clue who is using a computer to work out
which houses currently have the owner away can get that address
from the phone companys records.

Or the records of the fuel they buy for the car either.

too spaced out in time, data too disparate etc.

Even sillier than you usually manage.

Or the airline tickets they buy either.

is that publicly available?

We arent talking about publicly available, we are discussing
someone trolling the data and working out which houses
will be unoccupied and selling that data to criminals.

Again travel does not imply an empty house.

But those houses are more likely to be unoccupied.

Or the records of what grocerys they buy either.

useless for the purpose,

Bull**** when no one from that house is buying any grocerys.

and there is no publicly available record

We arent talking about publicly available, we are discussing
someone trolling the data and working out which houses
will be unoccupied and selling that data to criminals.

And even if someone was stupid enough to go that route,
the cops would soon find stupid druggys with lists of unoccupied
houses and would offer them a lesser penalty when they spill the
beans on where they got the list from and grab the list creator
and frog march him off to jail quick smart.

Of course some never learn.

And some like you are too stupid to have even noticed
that none of the stuff I listed has ever been used by any
criminal organisation to work out what places to burgle.

they can't

Corse they can.

Presumably because the absolute vast bulk of
the burglary of individual private residences is
done by stupid druggys funding the drug habits

For sure, but there is organised crime too.

Not with burglary of normal houses there isnt.

If you were a burglar, would data telling you when
various houses were empty be of any value? Obviously.

And yet no one actually uses all those data sources
I listed and flogs lists of those addresses to those
druggys feeding their drug habits by looting houses.

Because its a lot easier for the druggys to just walk
down the street and see which houses look like there
is no one there because the occupants are at work
etc and knock on the door to check that etc etc etc.

On 23/08/2016 21:15, wrote:
On Tuesday, 23 August 2016 20:18:27 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
tabbypurr wrote
Harry Bloomfield wrote
The Natural Philosopher wrote

You no longer need to protect private data on your network,
it is uploaded every night. And is no longer private.

But does it really matter?

You can work out when people are away on holiday by analysing such data.

You can do that by analysing their mobile phone records too. No one bothers.

It's only a matter of time before some criminal
organisation does this to pick houses to burgle.

How odd that it hasnt happened with the mobile phone records.

no, those deal with one person, not one house

Or the records of the fuel they buy for the car either.

too spaced out in time, data too disparate etc.

Or the airline tickets they buy either.

is that publicly available? Again travel does not imply an empty house.

Or the records of what grocerys they buy either.

useless for the purpose, and there is no publicly available record


There are no publicly available records for smart meter readings.

On Tuesday, 23 August 2016 21:48:58 UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:

There are no publicly available records for smart meter readings.

data is available when security isn't upto it.


NT

wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 23 August 2016 21:48:58 UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:

There are no publicly available records for smart meter readings.

data is available when security isn't upto it.

Just as true of all of airline booking records, hotel booking records,
who has moved thru airports etc, with loyalty cards, grocery till
records when paying with a card, mobile phone usage records,
landline phone records, etc etc etc.

And yet somehow we dont actually see anyone actually data
mining all those and making up lists that they sell to druggys
looting normal houses while the owners are away.

On 24/08/2016 08:08, wrote:
On Tuesday, 23 August 2016 21:48:58 UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:

There are no publicly available records for smart meter readings.

data is available when security isn't upto it.


NT

As it is for each of the ones you stated no public records are available
so what's the difference?

Robin wrote:
On 23/08/2016 16:24, wrote:
On Tuesday, 23 August 2016 14:41:52 UTC+1, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
The Natural Philosopher formulated the question :

You no longer need to protect private data on your network, it
is uploaded every night. And is no longer private.

But does it really matter?

You can work out when people are away on holiday by analysing such
data. It's only a matter of time before some criminal organisation
does this to pick houses to burgle.

If someone were really that interested, my gas and leccy cupboards are
outside and if someone so desperately wanted to, the could sneak round
and get my readings directly. All they need is a 10p triangular key and
a pen.

Way too labour intensive a way to be workable. A hacker & computer
analysing 100,000 homes could however be profitable.

If there's one thing computing history teaches us, it's that some
degree of paranoia is warranted with computer data. Of course some
never learn.


Do you arrange to down- and up-load data over your internet connection
at home while you are away?


Yes, but the data is from one non PC source only. All PCs/tablets
are unpowered.

dennis@home wrote:
On 23/08/2016 16:29, Robin wrote:
On 23/08/2016 16:24, wrote:
On Tuesday, 23 August 2016 14:41:52 UTC+1, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
The Natural Philosopher formulated the question :

You no longer need to protect private data on your network, it
is uploaded every night. And is no longer private.

But does it really matter?

You can work out when people are away on holiday by analysing such
data. It's only a matter of time before some criminal organisation
does this to pick houses to burgle.

If someone were really that interested, my gas and leccy cupboards are
outside and if someone so desperately wanted to, the could sneak round
and get my readings directly. All they need is a 10p triangular key
and
a pen.

Way too labour intensive a way to be workable. A hacker & computer
analysing 100,000 homes could however be profitable.

If there's one thing computing history teaches us, it's that some
degree of paranoia is warranted with computer data. Of course some
never learn.


Do you arrange to down- and up-load data over your internet connection
at home while you are away?


Someone paranoid enough to worry about smart meters wouldn't use the
internet from home.
They wouldn't have a phone either as the bad guys could phone up to
see if you are home.

That won't happen on my phone line, which is still intermittent!
Does wonders for putting off spam calls!

Harry Bloomfield wrote:
dennis@home pretended :
Someone paranoid enough to worry about smart meters wouldn't use the
internet from home.
They wouldn't have a phone either as the bad guys could phone up to
see if you are home.

Precisely, there are so many alternative ways to assess whether you at
home or not and with much greater certainty than checking your
consumption figures.

My Wifi is on and running, my lights come on and go off at appropriate
times, I have cameras keeping an eye on the place and it is alarmed.

I see you are as paranoid as my wife!

Robin wrote:
On 23/08/2016 17:50, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
dennis@home pretended :
Someone paranoid enough to worry about smart meters wouldn't use the
internet from home.
They wouldn't have a phone either as the bad guys could phone up to
see if you are home.

Precisely, there are so many alternative ways to assess whether you at
home or not and with much greater certainty than checking your
consumption figures.

My Wifi is on and running, my lights come on and go off at appropriate
times, I have cameras keeping an eye on the place and it is alarmed.

You forgot to mention the pet Black Mamba you leave free to roam the
house

She's not an animal person!

On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 17:54:14 +0100, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

But why would you want to ?. I read my meter regularly, at the
same
time and write the value and date on a bit of paper next to the
meter.
I know exactly what my daily consumption is summer and winter. All
done with a biro.

I was doing that and feeding the data into a spreadsheet once per week,
but it really didn't compare to the 30 minute samples I get now, nor
the instantaineous consumption readings via the remote display.

1 minute logging interval for consuption, 5 mins for voltage here.
"Real time" display of consumption. Web based plots of both
available. Not a smart meter in sight or letting a third party have
the data either.

CuurentCost consumption monitor for power, UPS for voltage, via the
server running linux. A Raspberry Pi could do all of it without
breaking into a sweat.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 16:29:11 +0100, Robin wrote:

You can work out when people are away on holiday by analysing such

data. It's only a matter of time before some criminal organisation
does
this to pick houses to burgle.

Aye, it'll happen even if it's as simple as an inside job and a
memory stick.

Do you arrange to down- and up-load data over your internet connection
at home while you are away?

Effectively yes as I send and collect mail but that is nothing like
the level of use when people are home and awake. Another big give
away that the place is/is not occupied.

--
Cheers
Dave.