I've tended to think kippers are evil or mad. This falls into the mad
variety.

A 'Vote to leave' leaflet posted through my door from Gerard Batten, UKIP
MEP for London.

Under 'how much does EU membership cost' :-

'The total combined cost (direct and indirect) have been calculated as
about £190 billion per annum'

That is approximately how much the UK government gets in income tax
revenue per year.

So I've got a new slogan for UKIP.

Vote to leave the EU, and UKIP will abolish income tax.

You just know it makes sense...

--
*Venison for dinner again? Oh deer!*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 18:59:50 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I've tended to think kippers are evil or mad. This falls into the mad
variety.

A 'Vote to leave' leaflet posted through my door from Gerard Batten,
UKIP MEP for London.

Under 'how much does EU membership cost' :-

'The total combined cost (direct and indirect) have been calculated as
about £190 billion per annum'

Somebody has their Bs and their Ms confused...

But, hey, it's only a factor of a thousand away from reality.

Better than most of their stuff.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
I've tended to think kippers are evil or mad. This falls into the mad
variety.

A 'Vote to leave' leaflet posted through my door from Gerard Batten, UKIP
MEP for London.

Under 'how much does EU membership cost' :-

'The total combined cost (direct and indirect) have been calculated as
about £190 billion per annum'

That is approximately how much the UK government gets in income tax
revenue per year.

So I've got a new slogan for UKIP.

Vote to leave the EU, and UKIP will abolish income tax.

You just know it makes sense...

Dave, if we happen to vote leave, you're gonna be hellish bitter and twisted

On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 19:31:04 +0100, bm wrote:

I've tended to think kippers are evil or mad. This falls into the mad
variety.

A 'Vote to leave' leaflet posted through my door from Gerard Batten,
UKIP MEP for London.

Under 'how much does EU membership cost' :-

'The total combined cost (direct and indirect) have been calculated as
about £190 billion per annum'

That is approximately how much the UK government gets in income tax
revenue per year.

So I've got a new slogan for UKIP.

Vote to leave the EU, and UKIP will abolish income tax.

You just know it makes sense...

Dave, if we happen to vote leave, you're gonna be hellish bitter and
twisted

And, in a few years time, everybody'll be standing around, wondering why
things aren't all swimmingly rosy... The opposite, in fact. But who to
blame now?

On 12/06/2016 19:56, Adrian wrote:
On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 19:31:04 +0100, bm wrote:

I've tended to think kippers are evil or mad. This falls into the mad
variety.

A 'Vote to leave' leaflet posted through my door from Gerard Batten,
UKIP MEP for London.

Under 'how much does EU membership cost' :-

'The total combined cost (direct and indirect) have been calculated as
about £190 billion per annum'

That is approximately how much the UK government gets in income tax
revenue per year.

So I've got a new slogan for UKIP.

Vote to leave the EU, and UKIP will abolish income tax.

You just know it makes sense...

Dave, if we happen to vote leave, you're gonna be hellish bitter and
twisted

And, in a few years time, everybody'll be standing around, wondering why
things aren't all swimmingly rosy... The opposite, in fact. But who to
blame now?

You mean if we stay in the EU and a wake of Turks depress wages even more?

I'm thinking of my children, not having to compete with immigrants from
developing countries.

On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 19:59:34 +0100, Fredxxx wrote:

I've tended to think kippers are evil or mad. This falls into the mad
variety.

A 'Vote to leave' leaflet posted through my door from Gerard Batten,
UKIP MEP for London.

Under 'how much does EU membership cost' :-

'The total combined cost (direct and indirect) have been calculated
as about £190 billion per annum'

That is approximately how much the UK government gets in income tax
revenue per year.

So I've got a new slogan for UKIP.

Vote to leave the EU, and UKIP will abolish income tax.

You just know it makes sense...

Dave, if we happen to vote leave, you're gonna be hellish bitter and
twisted

And, in a few years time, everybody'll be standing around, wondering
why things aren't all swimmingly rosy... The opposite, in fact. But who
to blame now?

You mean if we stay in the EU and a wake of Turks depress wages even
more?

sigh How about we try not to divert everything into some kind of
distopian fantasy world, just for a minute, just for once, unless you're
actively trying to prove Dave's point in his first sentence?

On 12/06/16 19:21, Adrian wrote:
On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 18:59:50 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I've tended to think kippers are evil or mad. This falls into the mad
variety.

A 'Vote to leave' leaflet posted through my door from Gerard Batten,
UKIP MEP for London.

Under 'how much does EU membership cost' :-

'The total combined cost (direct and indirect) have been calculated as
about £190 billion per annum'

Somebody has their Bs and their Ms confused...


Yes, you.

That figure can be justified.

But, hey, it's only a factor of a thousand away from reality.


No, its probably a factor of around 5.

Better than most of their stuff.



--
"What do you think about Gay Marriage?"
"I don't."
"Don't what?"
"Think about Gay Marriage."

On 12/06/16 19:56, Adrian wrote:
On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 19:31:04 +0100, bm wrote:

I've tended to think kippers are evil or mad. This falls into the mad
variety.

A 'Vote to leave' leaflet posted through my door from Gerard Batten,
UKIP MEP for London.

Under 'how much does EU membership cost' :-

'The total combined cost (direct and indirect) have been calculated as
about £190 billion per annum'

That is approximately how much the UK government gets in income tax
revenue per year.

So I've got a new slogan for UKIP.

Vote to leave the EU, and UKIP will abolish income tax.

You just know it makes sense...

Dave, if we happen to vote leave, you're gonna be hellish bitter and
twisted

And, in a few years time, everybody'll be standing around, wondering why
things aren't all swimmingly rosy... The opposite, in fact. But who to
blame now?

Well it would just be like te lefty****s to destroy the country and
blame it on 'not being in the EU'

Blaming it on Thatcher is wearing a *bit* thin.





--
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have
guns, why should we let them have ideas?

Josef Stalin

On 12/06/16 20:02, Adrian wrote:
How about we try not to divert everything into some kind of
distopian fantasy world, just for a minute, just for once, unless you're
actively trying to prove Dave's point in his first sentence?

How about we try not to divert everything into some kind of
dystopian fantasy world, just for a minute, just for once?

--
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have
guns, why should we let them have ideas?

Josef Stalin

On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 20:49:18 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I've tended to think kippers are evil or mad. This falls into the mad
variety.

A 'Vote to leave' leaflet posted through my door from Gerard Batten,
UKIP MEP for London.

Under 'how much does EU membership cost' :-

'The total combined cost (direct and indirect) have been calculated as
about £190 billion per annum'

Somebody has their Bs and their Ms confused...

Yes, you.

That figure can be justified.

Do go on...

But, hey, it's only a factor of a thousand away from reality.

No, its probably a factor of around 5.

Oh, well. There we go, then.

Only a factor of five out. So even you acknowledge that it's exaggerated
by one hundred and sixty billion pounds. £160bn. £160,000,000,000... Or,
to put it another way, one pound in every four and a half quid the
government spends.

On 12/06/16 21:21, Adrian wrote:
On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 20:49:18 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I've tended to think kippers are evil or mad. This falls into the mad
variety.

A 'Vote to leave' leaflet posted through my door from Gerard Batten,
UKIP MEP for London.

Under 'how much does EU membership cost' :-

'The total combined cost (direct and indirect) have been calculated as
about £190 billion per annum'

Somebody has their Bs and their Ms confused...

Yes, you.

That figure can be justified.

Do go on...

But, hey, it's only a factor of a thousand away from reality.

No, its probably a factor of around 5.

Oh, well. There we go, then.

Only a factor of five out. So even you acknowledge that it's exaggerated
by one hundred and sixty billion pounds. £160bn. £160,000,000,000... Or,
to put it another way, one pound in every four and a half quid the
government spends.

So you admit you lied when you said 1000 times out then?

AS I said, you can argue it many ways, but its not three orders of
magnitude out.

So you lied yet again


--
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as
foolish, and by the rulers as useful.

(Seneca the Younger, 65 AD)

"Adrian" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 19:31:04 +0100, bm wrote:

I've tended to think kippers are evil or mad. This falls into the mad
variety.

A 'Vote to leave' leaflet posted through my door from Gerard Batten,
UKIP MEP for London.

Under 'how much does EU membership cost' :-

'The total combined cost (direct and indirect) have been calculated as
about £190 billion per annum'

That is approximately how much the UK government gets in income tax
revenue per year.

So I've got a new slogan for UKIP.

Vote to leave the EU, and UKIP will abolish income tax.

You just know it makes sense...

Dave, if we happen to vote leave, you're gonna be hellish bitter and
twisted

And, in a few years time, everybody'll be standing around, wondering
why things aren't all swimmingly rosy... The opposite, in fact.

Bet they dont and in fact will be saying that Britain did quite
well to leave when it did and didnt have its economy crippled
by the spectacular implosion that was seen in the eurozone.

And did even better to avoid having to accept any of the hordes
of refugees that keep pouring out of Africa and the Middle East
as the EU finds that it can't con Turkey and Libya etc into taking
them all back, no matter how many billions they send them to
bribe them into doing that.

But who to blame now?

Those that not only forced the eurozone on all recent admissions
to the EU, but those who couldnt see the writing on the wall for
the eurozone and kept desperately trying to bail out a system
that was never going to work while ever individual countries
could do what they liked national budget wise and could just
keep doing the terminal stupidies that Greece and Italy kept
doing and couldnt just devalue their individual currencies to
get out of the economic mess they had got themselves into.

"Fredxxx" wrote in message
...
On 12/06/2016 19:56, Adrian wrote:
On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 19:31:04 +0100, bm wrote:

I've tended to think kippers are evil or mad. This falls into the mad
variety.

A 'Vote to leave' leaflet posted through my door from Gerard Batten,
UKIP MEP for London.

Under 'how much does EU membership cost' :-

'The total combined cost (direct and indirect) have been calculated as
about £190 billion per annum'

That is approximately how much the UK government gets in income tax
revenue per year.

So I've got a new slogan for UKIP.

Vote to leave the EU, and UKIP will abolish income tax.

You just know it makes sense...

Dave, if we happen to vote leave, you're gonna be hellish bitter and
twisted

And, in a few years time, everybody'll be standing around, wondering why
things aren't all swimmingly rosy... The opposite, in fact. But who to
blame now?

You mean if we stay in the EU and a wake of Turks depress wages even more?

I'm thinking of my children, not having to compete with immigrants from
developing countries.

They still would have to given that only half of them come from the EU.

In article ,
Adrian wrote:
On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 18:59:50 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I've tended to think kippers are evil or mad. This falls into the mad
variety.

A 'Vote to leave' leaflet posted through my door from Gerard Batten,
UKIP MEP for London.

Under 'how much does EU membership cost' :-

'The total combined cost (direct and indirect) have been calculated as
about £190 billion per annum'

Somebody has their Bs and their Ms confused...

Well, they mention the 270 million per week earlier on in the same chapter.

And they say that 190 billion is 7000 per household per year.

But, hey, it's only a factor of a thousand away from reality.

Better than most of their stuff.

--
*We never really grow*up, we only learn how to act in public.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article om,
bm wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
I've tended to think kippers are evil or mad. This falls into the mad
variety.

A 'Vote to leave' leaflet posted through my door from Gerard Batten, UKIP
MEP for London.

Under 'how much does EU membership cost' :-

'The total combined cost (direct and indirect) have been calculated as
about £190 billion per annum'

That is approximately how much the UK government gets in income tax
revenue per year.

So I've got a new slogan for UKIP.

Vote to leave the EU, and UKIP will abolish income tax.

You just know it makes sense...

Dave, if we happen to vote leave, you're gonna be hellish bitter and
twisted

Willing to bet not as much as the Turnips of this world if they don't get
their way.

--
*IS THERE ANOTHER WORD FOR SYNONYM?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Fredxxx wrote:
I'm thinking of my children, not having to compete with immigrants from
developing countries.

Then educate them. And instil in them a desire to work and succeed.

Odd, isn't it? The right wing little Englanders consider themselves the
master race - but can't compete for a job with ill educated foreigners who
can't even speak English. In their own country.

--
*Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Fredxxx wrote

I'm thinking of my children, not having to compete
with immigrants from developing countries.

Then educate them.

Easier said than done with the worst of them.

And instil in them a desire to work and succeed.

Impossible. They either have that or they don’t.

Odd, isn't it? The right wing little Englanders consider themselves
the master race - but can't compete for a job with ill educated
foreigners who can't even speak English. In their own country.

Its more that the drivers are very different. The locals can just put their
hands out to the state for benefits if they are feckless/unemployable.
The immigrants by definition are the small subset of where they are
coming from who are prepared to get off their arses and move to
somewhere where they rightly or wrongly consider their prospects are
significantly better and are mostly coming from countrys which hand
out sweet **** all in the way of benefits to those who choose not to work.

Its hardly very surprising that the parents of kids who they know
consciously or subconsciously need a boot in the arse before they
will actually put much effort into anything, would prefer it if no
immigrants were allowed in so their brats are free to choose
what work they will do without much effort to get qualified etc.

" Slomo" wrote in message
...
**** snipped
Do **** off Wodney.
Find an ozzie ng in which to type ********.

On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 21:40:35 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I've tended to think kippers are evil or mad. This falls into the
mad variety.

A 'Vote to leave' leaflet posted through my door from Gerard Batten,
UKIP MEP for London.

Under 'how much does EU membership cost' :-

'The total combined cost (direct and indirect) have been calculated
as about £190 billion per annum'

Somebody has their Bs and their Ms confused...

Yes, you.

That figure can be justified.

Do go on...

But, hey, it's only a factor of a thousand away from reality.

No, its probably a factor of around 5.

Oh, well. There we go, then.

Only a factor of five out. So even you acknowledge that it's
exaggerated by one hundred and sixty billion pounds. £160bn.
£160,000,000,000... Or,
to put it another way, one pound in every four and a half quid the
government spends.

So you admit you lied when you said 1000 times out then?

No, but I did drop a bollock. I'd got the weekly figure in my head
instead of the annual. My apologies.

So that's only a factor of 40 out, then.

AS I said, you can argue it many ways, but its not three orders of
magnitude out.

Indeed. We're actually talking about somewhere a factor of five (your
figure, which you've not yet "justified", and a factor of forty
(documented reality).

Of course, that factor of forty is direct cost. The indirect cost is
impossible to calculate - but there's very strong evidence to suggest
that it's actually indirect benefit, not indirect cost, so taking the
figure further away from the obviously loopy £190bn than the provable
direct figure.

So you lied yet again

I've never lied once. You might disagree with what I've said, but I've
never once lied. OTOH, you've come out with a LOT of things that are very
easily disproved with actual facts.

On 12-Jun-16 7:59 PM, Fredxxx wrote:
On 12/06/2016 19:56, Adrian wrote:
....
You mean if we stay in the EU

We are very unlikely to leave, even if the first referendum results in a
leave win. The government and a large majority of MPs want us to stay.

and a wake of Turks depress wages even more?

I'm thinking of my children, not having to compete with immigrants from
developing countries.

The evidence from 50 years of Turkish workers in Germany is that it is
the immigrants who struggle to get the jobs.

--
--

Colin Bignell

In article ,
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
Adrian wrote:
On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 18:59:50 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I've tended to think kippers are evil or mad. This falls into the mad
variety.

A 'Vote to leave' leaflet posted through my door from Gerard Batten,
UKIP MEP for London.

Under 'how much does EU membership cost' :-

'The total combined cost (direct and indirect) have been calculated as
about £190 billion per annum'

Somebody has their Bs and their Ms confused...

Well, they mention the 270 million per week earlier on in the same chapter.

And they say that 190 billion is 7000 per household per year.

Sorry, sorry -- hang on a mo -- are we talking about pounds, or
immigrants now?

J.

Actually, I was rather confused by their stance on Europe as the only place
they have any clout is in the ineffectual Eu Parliament, and if they vote
out they will lose their jobs.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
I've tended to think kippers are evil or mad. This falls into the mad
variety.

A 'Vote to leave' leaflet posted through my door from Gerard Batten, UKIP
MEP for London.

Under 'how much does EU membership cost' :-

'The total combined cost (direct and indirect) have been calculated as
about £190 billion per annum'

That is approximately how much the UK government gets in income tax
revenue per year.

So I've got a new slogan for UKIP.

Vote to leave the EU, and UKIP will abolish income tax.

You just know it makes sense...

--
*Venison for dinner again? Oh deer!*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Brian Gaff wrote

Actually, I was rather confused by their stance on Europe as the only
place they have any clout is in the ineffectual Eu Parliament, and if they
vote out they will lose their jobs.

That does show that they are prepared to put their jobs on the line tho.

Unusual for politicians.


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
I've tended to think kippers are evil or mad. This falls into the mad
variety.

A 'Vote to leave' leaflet posted through my door from Gerard Batten, UKIP
MEP for London.

Under 'how much does EU membership cost' :-

'The total combined cost (direct and indirect) have been calculated as
about £190 billion per annum'

That is approximately how much the UK government gets in income tax
revenue per year.

So I've got a new slogan for UKIP.

Vote to leave the EU, and UKIP will abolish income tax.

You just know it makes sense...

--
*Venison for dinner again? Oh deer!*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Another John wrote:
In article ,
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
Adrian wrote:
On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 18:59:50 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I've tended to think kippers are evil or mad. This falls into the
mad variety.

A 'Vote to leave' leaflet posted through my door from Gerard
Batten, UKIP MEP for London.

Under 'how much does EU membership cost' :-

'The total combined cost (direct and indirect) have been
calculated as about £190 billion per annum'

Somebody has their Bs and their Ms confused...

Well, they mention the 270 million per week earlier on in the same
chapter.

And they say that 190 billion is 7000 per household per year.

Sorry, sorry -- hang on a mo -- are we talking about pounds, or
immigrants now?

You've not been keeping up, have you?

--
*I wished the buck stopped here, as I could use a few*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 13-Jun-16 10:58 AM, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Nightjar
wrote:

On 12-Jun-16 7:59 PM, Fredxxx wrote:
On 12/06/2016 19:56, Adrian wrote:
...
You mean if we stay in the EU

We are very unlikely to leave, even if the first referendum results in
a leave win. The government and a large majority of MPs want us to stay.

So if Leave wins by say 60/40, they'll just ignore it, you mean?


That is an improbable result. However, as I have said before, what I
expect to happen if the vote is to leave is that the government will go
back to the EU and ask for more concessions. Those will then be put to a
second referendum. If the public don't get that one right, then ignoring
the vote would be an option, although they might go through the motions
of putting legislation to parliament, in the knowledge that the vast
majority of MPs support remain and will vote it down. It is, after all,
what the leave party say they want - the UK government making all the
decisions.


--
--

Colin Bignell

On 13/06/16 10:21, Brian Gaff wrote:
Actually, I was rather confused by their stance on Europe as the only place
they have any clout is in the ineffectual Eu Parliament, and if they vote
out they will lose their jobs.

That is and always has been their stated intention


If I've heard nigel say it once, I've heard him say it 100 times

"This turkey is voting for Christmas"

Brian



--
Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

"Saki"

On 13/06/16 10:58, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Nightjar
wrote:

On 12-Jun-16 7:59 PM, Fredxxx wrote:
On 12/06/2016 19:56, Adrian wrote:
...
You mean if we stay in the EU

We are very unlikely to leave, even if the first referendum results in
a leave win. The government and a large majority of MPs want us to stay.

So if Leave wins by say 60/40, they'll just ignore it, you mean?

That's what he seems to say yes.

And I've heard that said by a lot of other people

'yeah we promised a referendum,. but not to be bound by it'

Well if there is any way to get 50+ UKIP seats in parliament, that has
to be it.


--
Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

"Saki"

Nightjar wrote:
On 12-Jun-16 7:59 PM, Fredxxx wrote:
On 12/06/2016 19:56, Adrian wrote:
...
You mean if we stay in the EU

We are very unlikely to leave, even if the first referendum results in
a leave win. The government and a large majority of MPs want us to stay.

and a wake of Turks depress wages even more?

I'm thinking of my children, not having to compete with immigrants from
developing countries.

The evidence from 50 years of Turkish workers in Germany is that it is
the immigrants who struggle to get the jobs.


The evidence in the UK is the opposite. The Germans are more
nationalistic.

Nightjar wrote:
On 13-Jun-16 10:58 AM, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Nightjar
wrote:

On 12-Jun-16 7:59 PM, Fredxxx wrote:
On 12/06/2016 19:56, Adrian wrote:
...
You mean if we stay in the EU

We are very unlikely to leave, even if the first referendum results in
a leave win. The government and a large majority of MPs want us to
stay.

So if Leave wins by say 60/40, they'll just ignore it, you mean?


That is an improbable result. However, as I have said before, what I
expect to happen if the vote is to leave is that the government will
go back to the EU and ask for more concessions. Those will then be put
to a second referendum. If the public don't get that one right, then
ignoring the vote would be an option, although they might go through
the motions of putting legislation to parliament, in the knowledge
that the vast majority of MPs support remain and will vote it down. It
is, after all, what the leave party say they want - the UK government
making all the decisions.



The purpose of a referendum is that the people make the decisions
and the government has a mandate to execute them.

On 13/06/16 12:12, Capitol wrote:
Nightjar wrote:
On 13-Jun-16 10:58 AM, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Nightjar
wrote:

On 12-Jun-16 7:59 PM, Fredxxx wrote:
On 12/06/2016 19:56, Adrian wrote:
...
You mean if we stay in the EU

We are very unlikely to leave, even if the first referendum results in
a leave win. The government and a large majority of MPs want us to
stay.

So if Leave wins by say 60/40, they'll just ignore it, you mean?


That is an improbable result. However, as I have said before, what I
expect to happen if the vote is to leave is that the government will
go back to the EU and ask for more concessions. Those will then be put
to a second referendum. If the public don't get that one right, then
ignoring the vote would be an option, although they might go through
the motions of putting legislation to parliament, in the knowledge
that the vast majority of MPs support remain and will vote it down. It
is, after all, what the leave party say they want - the UK government
making all the decisions.



The purpose of a referendum is that the people make the decisions
and the government has a mandate to execute them.

Bless!

The purpose of this referendum is to see off the UKIP threat and put pay
to the Eurosceptic wing of the Tory party.

We aren't supposed to vote to leave.

If we do, its a big conundrum.

--
Karl Marx said religion is the opium of the people.
But Marxism is the crack cocaine.

On 13-Jun-16 1:03 PM, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Nightjar
wrote:

On 13-Jun-16 10:58 AM, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Nightjar
wrote:

On 12-Jun-16 7:59 PM, Fredxxx wrote:
On 12/06/2016 19:56, Adrian wrote:
...
You mean if we stay in the EU

We are very unlikely to leave, even if the first referendum results in
a leave win. The government and a large majority of MPs want us to
stay.

So if Leave wins by say 60/40, they'll just ignore it, you mean?

That is an improbable result. However, as I have said before, what I
expect to happen if the vote is to leave is that the government will
go back to the EU and ask for more concessions.

Which they wouldn't get. Going back and asking for substantial changes
would be an admission that we don't really mean it. So some fig-leaves
would be offered, but that's all.

Which is all that the government would need to justify a second referendum.

Those will then be put to a second referendum. If the public don't get
that one right,

Errm, "right" in whose opinion?

The government's of course. You don't think the referendum is anything
but a way to cut the ground from under the feet of UKIP at the last
election do you?

then ignoring the vote would be an option, although they might go
through the motions of putting legislation to parliament, in the
knowledge that the vast majority of MPs support remain and will vote
it down. It is, after all, what the leave party say they want -
the UK government making all the decisions.

That would be a recipe for civil war.

Properly spun, most people wouldn't even realise that the government
hadn't done its best to implement the referendum decision.

And we don't want the UK govt
making decisions on constitutional matters.

Since the Glorious Revolution, all Acts of Parliament have been
government decisions on constitutional matters.

That's why we have a
referendum, and why there would be one in the event, for example, that
we stayed due to the vote of this one and a new treaty was proposed
asking for more powers to be ceded to Brussels.

Referenda are a way to appear to get a mandate to do what the government
were going to do anyway. They are not binding.

--
--

Colin Bignell

On 13-Jun-16 12:11 PM, Capitol wrote:
Nightjar wrote:
....
The evidence from 50 years of Turkish workers in Germany is that it is
the immigrants who struggle to get the jobs.


The evidence in the UK is the opposite. ...

The evidence is that, in the UK, new immigrants are mainly competing for
jobs already filled by previous immigrants.


--
--

Colin Bignell

"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 13-Jun-16 1:03 PM, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Nightjar
wrote:

On 13-Jun-16 10:58 AM, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Nightjar
wrote:

On 12-Jun-16 7:59 PM, Fredxxx wrote:
On 12/06/2016 19:56, Adrian wrote:
...
You mean if we stay in the EU

We are very unlikely to leave, even if the first referendum results in
a leave win. The government and a large majority of MPs want us to
stay.

So if Leave wins by say 60/40, they'll just ignore it, you mean?

That is an improbable result. However, as I have said before, what I
expect to happen if the vote is to leave is that the government will
go back to the EU and ask for more concessions.

Which they wouldn't get. Going back and asking for substantial changes
would be an admission that we don't really mean it. So some fig-leaves
would be offered, but that's all.

Which is all that the government would need to justify a second
referendum.

Those will then be put to a second referendum. If the public don't get
that one right,

Errm, "right" in whose opinion?

The government's of course. You don't think the referendum is anything but
a way to cut the ground from under the feet of UKIP at the last election
do you?

It was also to placate those in the Tory party that want to leave the EU,
hoping that the vote would be to stay and that that would shut them up.

then ignoring the vote would be an option, although they might go
through the motions of putting legislation to parliament, in the
knowledge that the vast majority of MPs support remain and will vote
it down. It is, after all, what the leave party say they want -
the UK government making all the decisions.

That would be a recipe for civil war.

Properly spun, most people wouldn't even realise that the government
hadn't done its best to implement the referendum decision.

Impossible to spin something like that with the majority
of the leavers pointing out what was going on.

And we don't want the UK govt
making decisions on constitutional matters.

Since the Glorious Revolution, all Acts of Parliament have been government
decisions on constitutional matters.

That's why we have a
referendum, and why there would be one in the event, for example, that
we stayed due to the vote of this one and a new treaty was proposed
asking for more powers to be ceded to Brussels.

Referenda are a way to appear to get a mandate to do what the government
were going to do anyway. They are not binding.

Legally they arent, but politically they are if they get a big majority
voting one way.

On Monday, 13 June 2016 09:49:48 UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
On 12-Jun-16 7:59 PM, Fredxxx wrote:
On 12/06/2016 19:56, Adrian wrote:
...
You mean if we stay in the EU

We are very unlikely to leave, even if the first referendum results in a
leave win. The government and a large majority of MPs want us to stay.

and a wake of Turks depress wages even more?

I'm thinking of my children, not having to compete with immigrants from
developing countries.

The evidence from 50 years of Turkish workers in Germany is that it is
the immigrants who struggle to get the jobs.


If that were so, why do they come?
Or are you fantasising again?

On 14-Jun-16 8:38 AM, harry wrote:
On Monday, 13 June 2016 09:49:48 UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
On 12-Jun-16 7:59 PM, Fredxxx wrote:
On 12/06/2016 19:56, Adrian wrote:
...
You mean if we stay in the EU

We are very unlikely to leave, even if the first referendum results in a
leave win. The government and a large majority of MPs want us to stay.

and a wake of Turks depress wages even more?

I'm thinking of my children, not having to compete with immigrants from
developing countries.

The evidence from 50 years of Turkish workers in Germany is that it is
the immigrants who struggle to get the jobs.


If that were so, why do they come?

Turks have been in Germany long enough for half of them to have been
born there.

Or are you fantasising again?

From a study by the Berlin Institute for Population and Development:

'Immigrants tend on average to be more poorly educated and more
frequently unemployed and to participate less in public life than the
native population.'

A summary of the findings, in English, is given he

http://www.berlin-institut.org/filea...sion_final.pdf


--
--

Colin Bignell

On 13-Jun-16 12:07 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/06/16 10:58, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Nightjar
wrote:

On 12-Jun-16 7:59 PM, Fredxxx wrote:
On 12/06/2016 19:56, Adrian wrote:
...
You mean if we stay in the EU

We are very unlikely to leave, even if the first referendum results in
a leave win. The government and a large majority of MPs want us to stay.

So if Leave wins by say 60/40, they'll just ignore it, you mean?

That's what he seems to say yes...

Except that I don't see a 60/40 vote as very probable, unless the
turnout is very low. In that case, a 60/40 split will either be a
thorough endorsement of the government's stance, or too small a sample
to be representative of the will of the people, depending which side
gets the 60%. In practice, I expect the results to be close, after lots
of recounts.



--
--

Colin Bignell

"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 13-Jun-16 12:07 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/06/16 10:58, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Nightjar
wrote:

On 12-Jun-16 7:59 PM, Fredxxx wrote:
On 12/06/2016 19:56, Adrian wrote:
...
You mean if we stay in the EU

We are very unlikely to leave, even if the first referendum results in
a leave win. The government and a large majority of MPs want us to
stay.

So if Leave wins by say 60/40, they'll just ignore it, you mean?

That's what he seems to say yes...

Except that I don't see a 60/40 vote as very probable, unless the turnout
is very low.

And that is unlikely given the result that was seen in Scotland.

In that case, a 60/40 split will either be a thorough endorsement of the
government's stance, or too small a sample to be representative of the
will of the people, depending which side gets the 60%. In practice, I
expect the results to be close, after lots of recounts.

Me too. And the bookies clearly still
believe that the result will be to stay.

Hard to believe that that will change in just 2 weeks now.

On Monday, 13 June 2016 00:47:11 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxxx wrote:
I'm thinking of my children, not having to compete with immigrants from
developing countries.

Then educate them. And instil in them a desire to work and succeed.

It's difficult with schools now as they keep changing the way they teach and what, then you have a mass influx on non english speakers, so the teachers end up having to help them more than anyone else.
Most know that unless you can get a high level of education your chances of a job is limited because the attitute is we can get them from overseas almost immediatley rather than having to wait for them to be trained up.



Odd, isn't it? The right wing little Englanders consider themselves the
master race - but can't compete for a job with ill educated foreigners who
can't even speak English. In their own country.

They can compete on a level field, but when you have lots of peole willing to work for far less than the minium wage because even at that level it's higher than a good wage in their country they are prepared to live 5 to a single room.

Whatever your skill is there's someone in another country that's willing to do it for less.
As I said it's happened to a friend of mine and it will continue to happen, bur not everyone can ignore it.

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Monday, 13 June 2016 00:47:11 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxxx wrote:
I'm thinking of my children, not having to compete with immigrants
from developing countries.

Then educate them. And instil in them a desire to work and succeed.

It's difficult with schools now as they keep changing the way they teach
and what,

The schools don't keep changing things. They are told to by a government
who always thinks it knows more about teaching kids than teachers.


then you have a mass influx on non english speakers, so the teachers
end up having to help them more than anyone else.

If they can't speak English, no point in them being in an ordinary school.
They should be in a special language class until up to the same sort of
standard as their peers.

Most know that unless you can get a high level of education your chances
of a job is limited because the attitute is we can get them from
overseas almost immediatley rather than having to wait for them to be
trained up.

Right. So down to employers rather than immigrants? Odd then to blame
immigrants for stealing jobs.


Odd, isn't it? The right wing little Englanders consider themselves
the master race - but can't compete for a job with ill educated
foreigners who can't even speak English. In their own country.

They can compete on a level field, but when you have lots of peole
willing to work for far less than the minium wage because even at that
level it's higher than a good wage in their country they are prepared to
live 5 to a single room.

Isn't it illegal to pay under the minimum wage? So we now have our
government to blame for not enforcing their own legislation and employers
for taking the easiest route. But let's just blame the EU instead.

Whatever your skill is there's someone in another country that's willing
to do it for less. As I said it's happened to a friend of mine and it
will continue to happen, bur not everyone can ignore it.

Isn't that simply excellent capitalism? Competition bringing down prices?
Everyone on here thinks it's a flawless system. Except, of course, when it
has a direct impact on them.

--
*Procrastinate now

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"harry" wrote in message
...
On Monday, 13 June 2016 09:49:48 UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
On 12-Jun-16 7:59 PM, Fredxxx wrote:
On 12/06/2016 19:56, Adrian wrote:
...
You mean if we stay in the EU

We are very unlikely to leave, even if the first referendum results in a
leave win. The government and a large majority of MPs want us to stay.

and a wake of Turks depress wages even more?

I'm thinking of my children, not having to compete with immigrants from
developing countries.

The evidence from 50 years of Turkish workers in Germany is that it is
the immigrants who struggle to get the jobs.

If that were so, why do they come?

Because their situation in Germany is better than in Turkey, stupid.

Or are you fantasising again?

You're pig ignoranting, as always.