On 19/05/16 08:07, wrote:
On Wednesday, 18 May 2016 17:59:54 UTC+1, jim wrote:
Tim Lamb Wrote in message:
In message , jim
writes

Ford seem to think their brake fluid absorbs water from the air and

it does. It's hygroscopic and the systems aren't sealed.

require a 2 year change!

2 years seems a little keen, but it does need changing

Well the regular stuff is hygroscopic but whether it can
conceivably absorb enough to do any bother is a moot point!

Not much moot about failed brake calipers.



Not much moot about an emergency stop from 70mph where the brakes simply
stop working at 40mph..


Nearly happened to me once, but more from worn discs than anything else.
Downhill stretch of te A1, and needed to pull up. Might have been doing
more than 70mph ;-). My beloved old opel manta.

I got it down to about 30mph, and then half the brakes simply didn't
work at all. Rear drums still worked but the front brakes essentially gone.

Not quite the same as fluid boiling, but a similar end result. The
racing boys absolutely understand boiling hydraulics, with disks glowing
red hot even proper 'dry' fluid can boil.

The real point I'd like to make is this. Your wet fluid brakes will be
fine, till you really really need them. THEN they will let you down.

If you feel the risk is worth taking, be my guest, but please don't
tailgate me.

PS a fish on the back of your car does not help.




NT



--
If I had all the money I've spent on drink...
...I'd spend it on drink.

Sir Henry (at Rawlinson's End)

On 19/05/16 10:19, wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/05/16 21:03, polygonum wrote:
But none of them
seem to support the claim I was questioning: that not changing the brake
fluid makes the brake fluid itself more likely to boil.

If you have a true mixture of water & hydraulic fluid, and it boils (the
solution) is that brake fluid boiling, the water boiling or the mixture
boiling?

I think you are just as lacking in understanding as the person who said
casually 'the brake fluid boils'.

The fluid in the brakes does indeed boil.

That's my understanding of how a genuine solution 'boils'. There's no
separate boiling of the two constituents at different temperatures,
the boiling point is some new value which I guess is usually between
the boiling temperatures of the two constituents.

E.g. add salt to water, it dissolves and the boiling point of the
resultant solution is higher than that of pure water.

So I would guess with brake fluid when you add water the boiling point
reduces somewhat but what *doesn't* happen is that the water in the
solution boils at 100 degress Celsius.


Well yes, but listen up.

Brakes can boil with NO water in them, as disks and pads reach red heat
under hard driving. In fact only a Porsche out of half a dozen
'performance' cars tested was capable of sustained braking round a race
track indefinitely. Police cars involved in serial high speed chases
have had accidents because parking with the handbrake on after a high
speed chase boiled the fluid.

Yes, pumping the brakes will help but that takes a bit of extra time.

So the point one is that nearly all cars are capable of being driven
harder than the brakes are designed to cope with, and any reduction in
braking is a Badde Thynge.

The second point is that boiling brakes will always let you down when
you need them most, under prolonged heavy emergency braking.


The third pint is that water in the fluid leads to corrosion in the
master and slave cylinders, especially if the pipes are copper and
therefore don't remove the water by rusting themselves.
;-)




--
Microsoft : the best reason to go to Linux that ever existed.

On 19/05/16 10:19, Capitol wrote:
Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 18/05/16 12:39, Tim Lamb wrote:
OK so it is overdue for an MOT. Probably done 1000 miles in the year,
barn stored.

Couple of advisories on last years.... brake pipes slightly corroded
near flex hose joint and inner side walls slightly deteriorated on rear
tyres.

Not much I can do about the tyres but wire brush off any brake pipe
rust
and coat with..?

No, get the bloody things replaced. I've had brake failure..

Regular event on early Minis. Usually snatchy brakes from corroded
cylinders though.

I think a limited mileage, stored under cover slightly corroded pipe
is not going fail totally in 12 months.

I'll report what they have to say.




Corroded pipes, stored in a damp environment will decay at quite a
fast rate. I've just had a case where the drum brakes seized due to
rust, where the car is stored in a heated garage. There is enough
moisture around to do damage.

Drum brakes are really bad news. I have seen a drum brake full of water
that had been driven through bad weather, then parked up in a garage.

IF its worn there is a worn area where the shoes go and a lip that stops
the water draining.


--
To ban Christmas, simply give turkeys the vote.

On Thu, 19 May 2016 12:00:34 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Nearly happened to me once, but more from worn discs than anything else.
Downhill stretch of te A1, and needed to pull up. Might have been doing
more than 70mph ;-). My beloved old opel manta.

I got it down to about 30mph, and then half the brakes simply didn't
work at all. Rear drums still worked but the front brakes essentially
gone.

Good condition brakes shouldn't fade just stopping a bit quick from
70+ mph, once.

I have had good brakes fade, Mondeo, nearly at the bottom of a
"spirited" decent of Hartside to Melmerby, 1300' decent in about 4
miles. Great driving road, mix of straight bits long enough to get to
70+, with a mix of 40 mph bends and a few 2nd gear hair pins thrown
in. Once the brakes had faded, they partially come back fairly
quickly but it ddin't take much braking to make 'em fade again. They
didn't come back properly until they hadn't been used for a couple of
minutes.

If you feel the risk is worth taking, be my guest, but please don't
tailgate me.

Aye, brakes and the few square inches of contact patche between the
road and tyre is all that is stopping you hitting a tree at 60 mph...
Tree's, even small ones, do not have any "give" when you hit one.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 19/05/16 12:24, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Thu, 19 May 2016 12:00:34 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Nearly happened to me once, but more from worn discs than anything else.
Downhill stretch of te A1, and needed to pull up. Might have been doing
more than 70mph ;-). My beloved old opel manta.

I got it down to about 30mph, and then half the brakes simply didn't
work at all. Rear drums still worked but the front brakes essentially
gone.

Good condition brakes shouldn't fade just stopping a bit quick from
70+ mph, once.

Indeed. That's when I realised they weren't in such good condition.

That car didnt have vented discs, and they were thin,. The car relied
ogn thermal mass to basorbe the energy without overheating the discs and
pads,. with less disc to heat there wasn't enough capacity to absorb a
full stop from the speeds I was doing, down a fairly steep hill.

Brakes that are fine at modest speeds and light loads may not be so fine
at high speeds with full loads - the 'family holiday' scenario.

As I wrote earlier, a production car that can dissipate full braking
heat indefinitely is the exception, not the rule. Most cars will do one
emergency stop from their top speed, once, and that's it. Until the
brakes cool down.

Now think about towing a caravan off a mountain..



I have had good brakes fade, Mondeo, nearly at the bottom of a
"spirited" decent of Hartside to Melmerby, 1300' decent in about 4
miles. Great driving road, mix of straight bits long enough to get to
70+, with a mix of 40 mph bends and a few 2nd gear hair pins thrown
in. Once the brakes had faded, they partially come back fairly
quickly but it ddin't take much braking to make 'em fade again. They
didn't come back properly until they hadn't been used for a couple of
minutes.


Yep.

If you feel the risk is worth taking, be my guest, but please don't
tailgate me.

Aye, brakes and the few square inches of contact patche between the
road and tyre is all that is stopping you hitting a tree at 60 mph...
Tree's, even small ones, do not have any "give" when you hit one.



--
€œBut what a weak barrier is truth when it stands in the way of an
hypothesis!€�

Mary Wollstonecraft

On Thu, 19 May 2016 13:18:55 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

That car didnt have vented discs, and they were thin,.

The Mondeo had fairly chuncky and vented discs,

As I wrote earlier, a production car that can dissipate full braking
heat indefinitely is the exception, not the rule. Most cars will do one
emergency stop from their top speed, once, and that's it. Until the
brakes cool down.

Agreed, ever since having my brakes fade, It's a rather unnerving
experience to apply the brakes heading quickly towards a sharp corner
for them to intially work then just disappear and I do mean disappear
not just become a little less effective. Slamming it down a gear
slowed me just enough to get around the corner...

In normal driving I always used the engine to brake but after that
sprited decent I try to minimise how much brake I use when decending
long hills. Even if it means 2nd 3000 rpm and 30 mph. Instead of 3rd,
2000 rpm 30 mph but running away.

Now think about towing a caravan off a mountain..

And we don't have seriously long steep hills in this country.
Somewhere on a bus route between Chengdu and Xian (IIRC, certainly
Xian) all the buses and lorries stop at the top of a hill and fill up
large roof tanks with water. This then flows down pipes to the brakes
(probably drum) to cool them, Starting off from that point everything
leaves a couple of water trails but not for long... The decent was
took several hours at 30 mph or there abouts. Stuff coming up was
using crawler gears.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I know at least one fleet car manager who would buy brand new Fords, run
them for around one year and about 80,000 miles without servicing them
AT ALL and then trade them.

Then he was as big a fool as you, as it makes no financial sense.

Their value was not lessened by the fact the oil resembled tar, the
brakes were worn to a whisper, if they still worked, and the spark plugs
barely were able to generate a spark. All that counted was the body
looked good and the plate was a late one.

The used value of a near new car depends very much on whether it has a
full service history. One which had been run for 80,000 miles without
being serviced would not command the top price. As you'd know if you'd
ever been near an auction of such vehicles.

They might, however, sell easily at a knocked down price to someone
willing to take a gamble.

--
*No I haven't stolen it , I'm just a **** driver*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 19/05/2016 13:50, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Thu, 19 May 2016 13:18:55 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

That car didnt have vented discs, and they were thin,.

The Mondeo had fairly chuncky and vented discs,

As I wrote earlier, a production car that can dissipate full braking
heat indefinitely is the exception, not the rule. Most cars will do one
emergency stop from their top speed, once, and that's it. Until the
brakes cool down.

Agreed, ever since having my brakes fade, It's a rather unnerving
experience to apply the brakes heading quickly towards a sharp corner
for them to intially work then just disappear and I do mean disappear
not just become a little less effective. Slamming it down a gear
slowed me just enough to get around the corner...


Its even more unnerving, nay terrifying when you hit the brakes at 100+
MPH to slow down for a bend and nothing happens at all.

Mike

On Thu, 19 May 2016 14:15:54 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I know at least one fleet car manager who would buy brand new Fords,
run them for around one year and about 80,000 miles without servicing
them AT ALL and then trade them.

Then he was as big a fool as you, as it makes no financial sense.

Their value was not lessened by the fact the oil resembled tar, the
brakes were worn to a whisper, if they still worked, and the spark
plugs barely were able to generate a spark. All that counted was the
body looked good and the plate was a late one.

The used value of a near new car depends very much on whether it has a
full service history. One which had been run for 80,000 miles without
being serviced would not command the top price. As you'd know if you'd
ever been near an auction of such vehicles.

They might, however, sell easily at a knocked down price to someone
willing to take a gamble.

If he saved £2k on servicing, and the hit to the value is only £1500,
then he saved £500 per car...

Of course, that ignores the effect on the business of people being stuck
at the side of the road rather than in the meeting.

On Thursday, 19 May 2016 12:00:36 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Not much moot about an emergency stop from 70mph where the brakes simply
stop working at 40mph..


Nearly happened to me once, but more from worn discs than anything else.
Downhill stretch of te A1, and needed to pull up. Might have been doing
more than 70mph ;-). My beloved old opel manta.

I got it down to about 30mph, and then half the brakes simply didn't
work at all. Rear drums still worked but the front brakes essentially gone.

Not quite the same as fluid boiling, but a similar end result. The
racing boys absolutely understand boiling hydraulics, with disks glowing
red hot even proper 'dry' fluid can boil.

The real point I'd like to make is this. Your wet fluid brakes will be
fine, till you really really need them. THEN they will let you down.

If you feel the risk is worth taking, be my guest, but please don't
tailgate me.

PS a fish on the back of your car does not help.

ISTR a handbrake-only stop from speed taking about quarter of a mile. I'd hate to try that with a modern car, handbrakes are so crap now. Engine braking is terrible.


NT

On Thu, 19 May 2016 06:51:31 -0700, tabbypurr wrote:

ISTR a handbrake-only stop from speed taking about quarter of a mile.
I'd hate to try that with a modern car, handbrakes are so crap now.

MOT minimum for handbrakes is 16% efficient.
Minimum for the service brakes is 58% efficient, for post 2010 vehicles...

On 19/05/2016 14:15, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

The used value of a near new car depends very much on whether it has a
full service history. One which had been run for 80,000 miles without
being serviced would not command the top price. As you'd know if you'd
ever been near an auction of such vehicles.

They might, however, sell easily at a knocked down price to someone
willing to take a gamble.

Given this was apparently a few years back, I'm guessing "somebody
willing to clock them and flog them on to an unsuspecting victim".

On Thursday, 19 May 2016 13:18:55 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/05/16 12:24, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Thu, 19 May 2016 12:00:34 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Nearly happened to me once, but more from worn discs than anything else.
Downhill stretch of te A1, and needed to pull up. Might have been doing
more than 70mph ;-). My beloved old opel manta.

I got it down to about 30mph, and then half the brakes simply didn't
work at all. Rear drums still worked but the front brakes essentially
gone.

Good condition brakes shouldn't fade just stopping a bit quick from
70+ mph, once.

Indeed. That's when I realised they weren't in such good condition.

That car didnt have vented discs, and they were thin,. The car relied
ogn thermal mass to basorbe the energy without overheating the discs and
pads,. with less disc to heat there wasn't enough capacity to absorb a
full stop from the speeds I was doing, down a fairly steep hill.

Brakes that are fine at modest speeds and light loads may not be so fine
at high speeds with full loads - the 'family holiday' scenario.

As I wrote earlier, a production car that can dissipate full braking
heat indefinitely is the exception, not the rule. Most cars will do one
emergency stop from their top speed, once, and that's it. Until the
brakes cool down.

Now think about towing a caravan off a mountain..

Long ago I drove an ancient commercial vehicle with drums all round, split rims, 3 driving gears etc. Brakes were in good condition. Coming down a small mountainside empty I used the handbrake to keep speed to about 20. Due to brake fade the handbrake needed putting on further frequently. Halfway down it was out of handbrake travel and I stopped. And that was empty. People take so much for granted, sometimes too much. Modern cars still can and do fail, just not so often. What worries me is people that drive on the assumption their brakes will always work 100%. It just isn't so. It's wise to have backup plans.


NT

On Thursday, 19 May 2016 14:55:14 UTC+1, Adrian wrote:
On Thu, 19 May 2016 06:51:31 -0700, tabbypurr wrote:

ISTR a handbrake-only stop from speed taking about quarter of a mile.
I'd hate to try that with a modern car, handbrakes are so crap now.

MOT minimum for handbrakes is 16% efficient.

now, yes. ISTR it used to be 25% minimum. So a modern 16% car would take much longer.

Minimum for the service brakes is 58% efficient, for post 2010 vehicles...


NT

On 19/05/16 14:20, Muddymike wrote:
On 19/05/2016 13:50, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Thu, 19 May 2016 13:18:55 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

That car didnt have vented discs, and they were thin,.

The Mondeo had fairly chuncky and vented discs,

As I wrote earlier, a production car that can dissipate full braking
heat indefinitely is the exception, not the rule. Most cars will do one
emergency stop from their top speed, once, and that's it. Until the
brakes cool down.

Agreed, ever since having my brakes fade, It's a rather unnerving
experience to apply the brakes heading quickly towards a sharp corner
for them to intially work then just disappear and I do mean disappear
not just become a little less effective. Slamming it down a gear
slowed me just enough to get around the corner...


Its even more unnerving, nay terrifying when you hit the brakes at 100+
MPH to slow down for a bend and nothing happens at all.


Mmm. BTDTGTBT...

I managed to just edge the car towards the one bit of road that was
opposite a break in the hedge where the early morning sunlight had
melted the frost off the surface. And got just enough grip to get round
that bend onto the straight bit where I coasted down to ice safe speeds.



Mike



--
"In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is
true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp

On 19/05/16 14:27, Adrian wrote:
On Thu, 19 May 2016 14:15:54 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I know at least one fleet car manager who would buy brand new Fords,
run them for around one year and about 80,000 miles without servicing
them AT ALL and then trade them.

Then he was as big a fool as you, as it makes no financial sense.

Their value was not lessened by the fact the oil resembled tar, the
brakes were worn to a whisper, if they still worked, and the spark
plugs barely were able to generate a spark. All that counted was the
body looked good and the plate was a late one.

The used value of a near new car depends very much on whether it has a
full service history. One which had been run for 80,000 miles without
being serviced would not command the top price. As you'd know if you'd
ever been near an auction of such vehicles.

They might, however, sell easily at a knocked down price to someone
willing to take a gamble.

If he saved £2k on servicing, and the hit to the value is only £1500,
then he saved £500 per car...

Of course, that ignores the effect on the business of people being stuck
at the side of the road rather than in the meeting.

(a) this was a long time ago.

(b) remember these cars were just a year old. So within the 'annual
service' bracket.

(c) It is possible he got faked service stamps.

--
"In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is
true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp

On 19/05/16 14:58, Clive George wrote:
On 19/05/2016 14:15, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

The used value of a near new car depends very much on whether it has a
full service history. One which had been run for 80,000 miles without
being serviced would not command the top price. As you'd know if you'd
ever been near an auction of such vehicles.

They might, however, sell easily at a knocked down price to someone
willing to take a gamble.

Given this was apparently a few years back, I'm guessing "somebody
willing to clock them and flog them on to an unsuspecting victim".


yes, this was the sort of time you might be seeing 'minder' and 'the
sweeney' on the box for the first time. 70s?


--
"In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is
true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp

On 19/05/16 15:30, wrote:
On Thursday, 19 May 2016 14:55:14 UTC+1, Adrian wrote:
On Thu, 19 May 2016 06:51:31 -0700, tabbypurr wrote:

ISTR a handbrake-only stop from speed taking about quarter of a mile.
I'd hate to try that with a modern car, handbrakes are so crap now.

MOT minimum for handbrakes is 16% efficient.

now, yes. ISTR it used to be 25% minimum. So a modern 16% car would take much longer.

Minimum for the service brakes is 58% efficient, for post 2010 vehicles...


NT

I drove from oxford to cambridge on a handbrake only. Frightening and
stressful. People kept overtaking me and slamming on the brakes.


--
Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.

On Thu, 19 May 2016 07:30:21 -0700, tabbypurr wrote:

ISTR a handbrake-only stop from speed taking about quarter of a mile.
I'd hate to try that with a modern car, handbrakes are so crap now.

MOT minimum for handbrakes is 16% efficient.

now, yes. ISTR it used to be 25% minimum.

'erselfs disk-brake 1982 2cv was in for MOT this week. With handbrake
freshly adjusted to perfection, it got 22%. The handbrake uses separate
pads on the front disks, about the size of a £2 coin.

25% is only required when there's a single-circuit service brake.
Anything with dual-circuit is 16%.

On Thursday, 19 May 2016 16:00:40 UTC+1, Adrian wrote:
On Thu, 19 May 2016 07:30:21 -0700, tabbypurr wrote:

ISTR a handbrake-only stop from speed taking about quarter of a mile..
I'd hate to try that with a modern car, handbrakes are so crap now.

MOT minimum for handbrakes is 16% efficient.

now, yes. ISTR it used to be 25% minimum.

'erselfs disk-brake 1982 2cv was in for MOT this week. With handbrake
freshly adjusted to perfection, it got 22%. The handbrake uses separate
pads on the front disks, about the size of a £2 coin.

25% is only required when there's a single-circuit service brake.
Anything with dual-circuit is 16%.

16% is awful. I've experienced one that only just does that. I'd truly hate to have brake failure in such a car.


NT

On Thu, 19 May 2016 06:51:31 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

ISTR a handbrake-only stop from speed taking about quarter of a mile.
I'd hate to try that with a modern car, handbrakes are so crap now.

The *parking* brake on mine is vicious and electronic. There are
warnings in the handbook about operating the switch to ON when
moving. I'll have to re-read that bit but ISTR it basically boils
down to "don't" or if you do things might break and/or you may lose
control. I don't think it motors it on quite as fast as it does when
stationary but it's not gentle.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Thursday, 19 May 2016 16:12:59 UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Thu, 19 May 2016 06:51:31 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:

ISTR a handbrake-only stop from speed taking about quarter of a mile.
I'd hate to try that with a modern car, handbrakes are so crap now.

The *parking* brake on mine is vicious and electronic. There are
warnings in the handbook about operating the switch to ON when
moving. I'll have to re-read that bit but ISTR it basically boils
down to "don't" or if you do things might break and/or you may lose
control. I don't think it motors it on quite as fast as it does when
stationary but it's not gentle.

I presume such brakes are useless as backup braking. Locking both rear wheels at 70 sounds very dodgy.


NT

On Thu, 19 May 2016 08:09:47 -0700, tabbypurr wrote:

25% is only required when there's a single-circuit service brake.
Anything with dual-circuit is 16%.

16% is awful. I've experienced one that only just does that. I'd truly
hate to have brake failure in such a car.

I'm really not sure I aspire to experience brake failure in any car at
all, tbh.

Dave Liquorice wrote:

The*parking* brake on mine is vicious and electronic. There are
warnings in the handbook about operating the switch to ON when
moving

The parking brake on mine functions as an emergency brake when moving, I
don't think I'd ever use it as my foot instinctively knows how to brake,
but it would take longer and need my eyes taking off the road to find
the "hand"brake button.

I can just about see it being useful if e.g. the driver passes out at
the wheel and a passenger needs to stop the vehicle, but how many
passengers would try to prod the little (P) button?

On 19/05/16 16:27, Adrian wrote:
I'm really not sure I aspire to experience brake failure in any car at
all, tbh.

Then over-maintain yer brake pipes!

Brake failure and stuck wide open throttle are the two scariest
mechanical failures you can have, and as suspension collapse is the third.


--
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such
time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for
the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the
truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

Joseph Goebbels

In article ,
Adrian wrote:
The used value of a near new car depends very much on whether it has a
full service history. One which had been run for 80,000 miles without
being serviced would not command the top price. As you'd know if you'd
ever been near an auction of such vehicles.

They might, however, sell easily at a knocked down price to someone
willing to take a gamble.

If he saved £2k on servicing, and the hit to the value is only £1500,
then he saved £500 per car...

Maybe. I've not looked at the auction prices of near new high miles cars
recently, but I'd be surprised if you would recover the saving in service
costs at sale time. Although being Turnip, he probably thinks the cars ran
for 80,000 miles with only petrol costs.

Of course, that ignores the effect on the business of people being stuck
at the side of the road rather than in the meeting.

--
*Even a blind pig stumbles across an acorn now and again *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

wrote:

I presume such brakes are useless as backup braking. Locking both rear wheels at 70 sounds very dodgy.

I presume mine used all four brakes ... it does when stopped at the
lights (if you remain stationary for long time it will use the motor
driven rear brakes rather than hold it on the ABS hydraulics)

In article ,
Clive George wrote:
On 19/05/2016 14:15, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

The used value of a near new car depends very much on whether it has a
full service history. One which had been run for 80,000 miles without
being serviced would not command the top price. As you'd know if you'd
ever been near an auction of such vehicles.

They might, however, sell easily at a knocked down price to someone
willing to take a gamble.

Given this was apparently a few years back, I'm guessing "somebody
willing to clock them and flog them on to an unsuspecting victim".

Normal way to dispose of high mileage near new is at auction. A main
dealer won't want them in his showroom. And it would be a very odd fleet
who sold to the public direct.

Of course high mileage near new are prime candidates for clocking. But
this generally happens after they have been bought from the original
owner, and now in the used car trade.

--
*I didn't say it was your fault, I said I was blaming you.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
If he saved £2k on servicing, and the hit to the value is only £1500,
then he saved £500 per car...

Of course, that ignores the effect on the business of people being
stuck at the side of the road rather than in the meeting.

(a) this was a long time ago.

If it was a long time ago, even less chance of it running to high miles
without attention.

(b) remember these cars were just a year old. So within the 'annual
service' bracket.

FFS. Every car even with a sophisticated service indicator needs an oil
service based on usage, which includes miles. Only if it *doesn't* reach
those miles or whatever does it need an annual service. And none will go
anywhere near 80,000 miles without saying they need a service. Maybe a
quarter of that. And a lot less years ago.

(c) It is possible he got faked service stamps.

Now that I can believe, being a pal of yours. Would he also live by
Christian principles, like you?

--
*If horrific means to make horrible, does terrific mean to make terrible?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Adrian wrote:
On Thu, 19 May 2016 07:30:21 -0700, tabbypurr wrote:

ISTR a handbrake-only stop from speed taking about quarter of a mile.
I'd hate to try that with a modern car, handbrakes are so crap now.

MOT minimum for handbrakes is 16% efficient.

now, yes. ISTR it used to be 25% minimum.

'erselfs disk-brake 1982 2cv was in for MOT this week. With handbrake
freshly adjusted to perfection, it got 22%. The handbrake uses separate
pads on the front disks, about the size of a £2 coin.

25% is only required when there's a single-circuit service brake.
Anything with dual-circuit is 16%.

Best I ever had was a Rover P6 with Girling rear discs. The handbrake
shared the same pads - basically the pads were applied by either a single
hydraulic cylinder or the handbrake. And it would show 50% at the MOT.

--
*Who are these kids and why are they calling me Mom?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 19 May 2016 16:52:38 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

'erselfs disk-brake 1982 2cv was in for MOT this week. With handbrake
freshly adjusted to perfection, it got 22%. The handbrake uses separate
pads on the front disks, about the size of a £2 coin.

Best I ever had was a Rover P6 with Girling rear discs. The handbrake
shared the same pads - basically the pads were applied by either a
single hydraulic cylinder or the handbrake. And it would show 50% at the
MOT.

2cvs with front drums use the same front shoes for both. They work
well... Get them right, they'll damn near jump it out of the rollers.

On Thursday, 19 May 2016 16:31:18 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/05/16 16:27, Adrian wrote:

I'm really not sure I aspire to experience brake failure in any car at
all, tbh.

Then over-maintain yer brake pipes!

Brake failure and stuck wide open throttle are the two scariest
mechanical failures you can have, and as suspension collapse is the third.

Throttle: out of gear, clutch, ignition switch, low gear are all options. Steering problems can be scary. Stability problems OTOH are just annoying.

I've not experienced suspension collapse, but am familiar enough with no suspension travel left. That at least is drivable. We have it soft in this country.


NT

On Thursday, 19 May 2016 16:55:51 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Best I ever had was a Rover P6 with Girling rear discs. The handbrake
shared the same pads - basically the pads were applied by either a single
hydraulic cylinder or the handbrake. And it would show 50% at the MOT.

I don't think you can use that 50% though. Hard braking puts most of the car's weight onto the front wheels. ISTR about 20% of braking comes from the rear.


NT

In article ,
wrote:
25% is only required when there's a single-circuit service brake.
Anything with dual-circuit is 16%.

16% is awful. I've experienced one that only just does that. I'd truly
hate to have brake failure in such a car.

But that's the point. With dual circuit brakes the handbrake is no longer
an emergency one.

--
*Time is what keeps everything from happening at once.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
wrote:
On Thursday, 19 May 2016 16:55:51 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Best I ever had was a Rover P6 with Girling rear discs. The handbrake
shared the same pads - basically the pads were applied by either a
single hydraulic cylinder or the handbrake. And it would show 50% at
the MOT.

I don't think you can use that 50% though. Hard braking puts most of the
car's weight onto the front wheels. ISTR about 20% of braking comes from
the rear.

Yes - but not on a brake tester with extra grippy rollers. It would
happily lock the rear wheels on the road, though.

--
*Why is the third hand on the watch called a second hand?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thursday, 19 May 2016 18:22:47 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:

25% is only required when there's a single-circuit service brake.
Anything with dual-circuit is 16%.

16% is awful. I've experienced one that only just does that. I'd truly
hate to have brake failure in such a car.

But that's the point. With dual circuit brakes the handbrake is no longer
an emergency one.

obviously. And dual circuit footbrakes can still fail, I already explained one of the reasons. Keep up.


NT

In article ,
wrote:
On Thursday, 19 May 2016 18:22:47 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:

25% is only required when there's a single-circuit service brake.
Anything with dual-circuit is 16%.

16% is awful. I've experienced one that only just does that. I'd
truly hate to have brake failure in such a car.

But that's the point. With dual circuit brakes the handbrake is no
longer an emergency one.

obviously. And dual circuit footbrakes can still fail, I already
explained one of the reasons. Keep up.

If any part of the braking system is likely to be below par, it's the
handbrake. Good luck relying on that.

--
*Why 'that tie suits you' but 'those shoes suit you'?*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Adrian" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 19 May 2016 14:15:54 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I know at least one fleet car manager who would buy brand new Fords,
run them for around one year and about 80,000 miles without servicing
them AT ALL and then trade them.

Then he was as big a fool as you, as it makes no financial sense.

Their value was not lessened by the fact the oil resembled tar, the
brakes were worn to a whisper, if they still worked, and the spark
plugs barely were able to generate a spark. All that counted was the
body looked good and the plate was a late one.

The used value of a near new car depends very much on whether it has a
full service history. One which had been run for 80,000 miles without
being serviced would not command the top price. As you'd know if you'd
ever been near an auction of such vehicles.

They might, however, sell easily at a knocked down price to someone
willing to take a gamble.

If he saved £2k on servicing, and the hit to the value is only £1500,
then he saved £500 per car...

Of course, that ignores the effect on the business of people
being stuck at the side of the road rather than in the meeting.

Its very unlikely that there would be much of that with 80K miles
per year per car due to lack of servicing. Much more likely to be
warranty faults.

Corse Ford would fix warranty faults with no servicing
being done on the car is another matter entirely.

wrote in message
...
On Thursday, 19 May 2016 12:00:36 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Not much moot about an emergency stop from 70mph where the brakes simply
stop working at 40mph..


Nearly happened to me once, but more from worn discs than anything else.
Downhill stretch of te A1, and needed to pull up. Might have been doing
more than 70mph ;-). My beloved old opel manta.

I got it down to about 30mph, and then half the brakes simply didn't
work at all. Rear drums still worked but the front brakes essentially
gone.

Not quite the same as fluid boiling, but a similar end result. The
racing boys absolutely understand boiling hydraulics, with disks glowing
red hot even proper 'dry' fluid can boil.

The real point I'd like to make is this. Your wet fluid brakes will be
fine, till you really really need them. THEN they will let you down.

If you feel the risk is worth taking, be my guest, but please don't
tailgate me.

PS a fish on the back of your car does not help.

ISTR a handbrake-only stop from speed taking about quarter of a mile.
I'd hate to try that with a modern car, handbrakes are so crap now.

Mine isn't, the damned thing just sort of squats
if I try to drive off with the handbrake on.

Engine braking is terrible.

Bull**** it is.

On Friday, 20 May 2016 00:40:42 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Thursday, 19 May 2016 18:22:47 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:

25% is only required when there's a single-circuit service brake.
Anything with dual-circuit is 16%.

16% is awful. I've experienced one that only just does that. I'd
truly hate to have brake failure in such a car.

But that's the point. With dual circuit brakes the handbrake is no
longer an emergency one.

obviously. And dual circuit footbrakes can still fail, I already
explained one of the reasons. Keep up.

If any part of the braking system is likely to be below par, it's the
handbrake. Good luck relying on that.

On some people's cars yes. If any of my brakes aren't upto the job I fix them. They all matter.

Dual circuits are all very well, but they still have single failure points like the servo, without which you won't get much braking on some cars. Handbrakes bypass those failures - they may be crude prewar style cable brakes but they sure beat no brakes.


NT