Hi All,

A mate is in the process of fitting out a new shop and has asked me
what he should do about running network points around the shop.

He electrician is going to do it but I'm not sure what to advise re
the network cabling.

He doesn't need much bandwidth as it will only be a bit of web
browsing, possibly some cloud based POS and remote access to his CCTV
so would Cat5e still be ok or should is Cat6 as easy / straightforward
to use and more 'future proof please?

FWIW, maximum run from router / switch to socket will be about 20m (as
the cable runs).

Cheers, T i m

p.s. And assuming he doesn't need loads, where would be the easiest
place for him to order / get it all from (cable and sockets etc)
please?

p.p.s. My house is still mainly the Cat3 I installed a long time ago
which was the 'in thing' over Cheapernet! ;-)

T i m wrote:

A mate is in the process of fitting out a new shop and has asked me
what he should do about running network points around the shop.

cat5e is good up to gigabit, but can't see him needing faster than
10/100 really, if he goes for cat6 the cable needs larger band radius
and is thicker, also outlets and patch panels may be more expensive.

On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 11:32:45 +0000, T i m wrote:

Hi All,

A mate is in the process of fitting out a new shop and has asked me what
he should do about running network points around the shop.

He electrician is going to do it but I'm not sure what to advise re the
network cabling.

He doesn't need much bandwidth as it will only be a bit of web browsing,
possibly some cloud based POS and remote access to his CCTV so would
Cat5e still be ok or should is Cat6 as easy / straightforward to use and
more 'future proof please?

FWIW, maximum run from router / switch to socket will be about 20m (as
the cable runs).

Cheers, T i m

p.s. And assuming he doesn't need loads, where would be the easiest
place for him to order / get it all from (cable and sockets etc) please?

p.p.s. My house is still mainly the Cat3 I installed a long time ago
which was the 'in thing' over Cheapernet! ;-)

I would go Cat6 just because of the higher theoretical bandwidth and the
fact that the cost of installation is likely to be far higher than the
cost of the cable and the sockets so you might as well put in the "latest
greatest" for future proofing.

I think the usual suspects such as CPC stock everything needed.

HTH

Dave R

--
Windows 8.1 on PCSpecialist box

On 26/01/2016 11:32, T i m wrote:
Hi All,

A mate is in the process of fitting out a new shop and has asked me
what he should do about running network points around the shop.

He electrician is going to do it but I'm not sure what to advise re
the network cabling.

He doesn't need much bandwidth as it will only be a bit of web
browsing, possibly some cloud based POS and remote access to his CCTV
so would Cat5e still be ok or should is Cat6 as easy / straightforward
to use and more 'future proof please?

FWIW, maximum run from router / switch to socket will be about 20m (as
the cable runs).

Cheers, T i m

p.s. And assuming he doesn't need loads, where would be the easiest
place for him to order / get it all from (cable and sockets etc)
please?

p.p.s. My house is still mainly the Cat3 I installed a long time ago
which was the 'in thing' over Cheapernet! ;-)

His present requirements may well be covered by Cat5ebut as the main
cost is in the installation rather than the hardware, why not future proof

Malcolm

On Tuesday, 26 January 2016 15:22:22 UTC, Malcolm Race wrote:
On 26/01/2016 11:32, T i m wrote:
Hi All,

A mate is in the process of fitting out a new shop and has asked me
what he should do about running network points around the shop.

He electrician is going to do it but I'm not sure what to advise re
the network cabling.

He doesn't need much bandwidth as it will only be a bit of web
browsing, possibly some cloud based POS and remote access to his CCTV
so would Cat5e still be ok or should is Cat6 as easy / straightforward
to use and more 'future proof please?

FWIW, maximum run from router / switch to socket will be about 20m (as
the cable runs).

Cheers, T i m

p.s. And assuming he doesn't need loads, where would be the easiest
place for him to order / get it all from (cable and sockets etc)
please?

p.p.s. My house is still mainly the Cat3 I installed a long time ago
which was the 'in thing' over Cheapernet! ;-)

His present requirements may well be covered by Cat5ebut as the main
cost is in the installation rather than the hardware, why not future proof

Malcolm

Maybe not everyone will live into the future.
For most things I can use wireless as I assume most can.
Sure if I regually transfer GB of files I'd go for hardwire.
if you gonna truely future proof don't use enthernet cable
of any kind use fibra optic cable.

whisky-dave wrote:

if you gonna truely future proof don't use enthernet cable
of any kind use fibra optic cable.

If you do that, you'll spend a fortune on fibre capable switches, SFPs,
and NICs or media converters ... unless there's an identified need for
10 gigabit speed (and I'd be amazed if the owner was just asking a mate
if there were) I'd stick with cat5e.

On Tuesday, 26 January 2016 16:12:37 UTC, Andy Burns wrote:
whisky-dave wrote:

if you gonna truely future proof don't use enthernet cable
of any kind use fibra optic cable.

If you do that, you'll spend a fortune on fibre capable switches, SFPs,
and NICs or media converters ... unless there's an identified need for
10 gigabit speed (and I'd be amazed if the owner was just asking a mate
if there were) I'd stick with cat5e.

I would too I wouldn't bother with cat6, but then again I wouldn't bother with cat5e either. Unless I know I rely need fast speed or was planing on playing games I'd use wireless throughout.
Brought one of these TP link things to go into another room. How many people need 1GB or even 500MB ?

Maybe I'll wait until quantum cat cables come about.

On 26/01/2016 11:32, T i m wrote:
Hi All,

A mate is in the process of fitting out a new shop and has asked me
what he should do about running network points around the shop.

He electrician is going to do it but I'm not sure what to advise re
the network cabling.

He doesn't need much bandwidth as it will only be a bit of web
browsing, possibly some cloud based POS and remote access to his CCTV
so would Cat5e still be ok or should is Cat6 as easy / straightforward
to use and more 'future proof please?

CAT5e will be adequate for most applications for some time to come. If
well cabled you can get 10Gig ethernet down it although with length
limitations (probably no more than 40m). Having said that 10G ethernet
does not seem popular yet, is still pricey and very power hungry.

CAT6 is more expensive, harder to work with etc, and is unlikely to buy
much advantage in this application.

FWIW, maximum run from router / switch to socket will be about 20m (as
the cable runs).

Stick in more cables than he needs - even if they are not all terminated
up to start with. Always run at least a pair of cables to any one point.

p.s. And assuming he doesn't need loads, where would be the easiest
place for him to order / get it all from (cable and sockets etc)
please?

These folks are good:

http://www.comms-express.com/

Failing that TLC have a small range of network stuff.

Get the Excel branded patch panels and CAT5 full depth modules (needs
the bevelled edge face plate for depth) - they are a little bit more
expensive than budget ones, but so much nice and faster to wire.

http://www.comms-express.com/product...ttered-module/

(from simple things like being marked with only the TIA-568B colour
coding, so you are not always stopping to think which set of colours you
are matching, to the more subtle like the way the CAT5 wires push into
the terminals with a nice positive feel and stay put before punching down).

Make sure you order proper copper CAT5e and not CCA or CCS.

p.p.s. My house is still mainly the Cat3 I installed a long time ago
which was the 'in thing' over Cheapernet! ;-)

Handy for pulling through some CAT5e ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 26/01/2016 16:33, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 26 January 2016 16:12:37 UTC, Andy Burns wrote:
whisky-dave wrote:

if you gonna truely future proof don't use enthernet cable of any
kind use fibra optic cable.

If you do that, you'll spend a fortune on fibre capable switches,
SFPs, and NICs or media converters ... unless there's an identified
need for 10 gigabit speed (and I'd be amazed if the owner was just
asking a mate if there were) I'd stick with cat5e.

I would too I wouldn't bother with cat6, but then again I wouldn't
bother with cat5e either. Unless I know I rely need fast speed or was
planing on playing games I'd use wireless throughout. Brought one of
these TP link things to go into another room. How many people need
1GB or even 500MB ?

I would say for domestic stuff pretty much everyone. There is no real
cost disadvantage going with 1G ethernet, and it will be standard on any
PC less than say 5 years old. For small business use, in some cases its
less important, but there is still no point not.

In many cases Wireless is a right PITA (patchy coverage, drop outs, slow
downs at peak times when all the neighbours are making heavy use of it
etc).

10/100 is not always fast enough if you are doing much streaming of
video content over a home network, it also can't keep pace with the data
serving rate from even a basic NAS box. Lastly if you do need to move
bulk data (say a 5GB image of a DVD), then you really notice the
difference in transfer rate.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 11:32:45 +0000, T i m wrote:

He electrician is going to do it but I'm not sure what to advise re
the network cabling.

Almost anything but NOT cable labelled CCA or CCS (Copper Coated
Aluminium, Copper Coated Steel). The electrician will probably go
for one of these as they are the cheapest but either are likely to
cause problems in the future.

On Tuesday, 26 January 2016 15:22:22 UTC, Malcolm Race wrote:
His present requirements may well be covered by Cat5ebut as the main
cost is in the installation rather than the hardware, why not future proof

because in 5-10 years time the shop could be used for a completely different purpose and be refitted accordingly

Purpose built offices tend to stay purpose built offices

Owain

On 26/01/2016 11:32, T i m wrote:
Hi All,

A mate is in the process of fitting out a new shop and has asked me
what he should do about running network points around the shop.

He electrician is going to do it but I'm not sure what to advise re
the network cabling.

He doesn't need much bandwidth as it will only be a bit of web
browsing, possibly some cloud based POS and remote access to his CCTV
so would Cat5e still be ok or should is Cat6 as easy / straightforward
to use and more 'future proof please?

FWIW, maximum run from router / switch to socket will be about 20m (as
the cable runs).

Cheers, T i m

p.s. And assuming he doesn't need loads, where would be the easiest
place for him to order / get it all from (cable and sockets etc)
please?

p.p.s. My house is still mainly the Cat3 I installed a long time ago
which was the 'in thing' over Cheapernet! ;-)

Stick in branded Cat 6 Cable such as Excel, if the runs are only 20m,
one 305m box of Cat6 Wont be much cheaper than Cat5e.

If he is worried about cost, then terminate it with Cat5e Outlets and
Patch Panels, else use Cat6 Accessories. At least then the
infrastructure is in place.

Cat 5e will give Gb speed and Cat 6 will give 10Gb up to 40m between
Switch and Outlet.

Don't bother with fibre, it is expensive to terminate and so is the kit
you need to get it working.

I would say a properly installed Branded Cat5e solution installed and
certified with a proper tester, by a qualified engineer, will be better
than some no brand Cat6 Cable, stuck in by a Sparky, who then at most
will do a quick wire map check on the cabling.

--
Eednud

On 26/01/2016 19:56, Eednud wrote:

Cat 5e will give Gb speed and Cat 6 will give 10Gb up to 40m between
Switch and Outlet.

IIRC, CAT5e should do 10G up to 40m, and 100m for CAT6

Don't bother with fibre, it is expensive to terminate and so is the kit
you need to get it working.

I would say a properly installed Branded Cat5e solution installed and
certified with a proper tester, by a qualified engineer, will be better
than some no brand Cat6 Cable, stuck in by a Sparky, who then at most
will do a quick wire map check on the cabling.

True, but if all the sparky is doing is pulling the wires in, then it
should still be a workable install.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 26/01/2016 20:16, John Rumm wrote:
On 26/01/2016 19:56, Eednud wrote:

Cat 5e will give Gb speed and Cat 6 will give 10Gb up to 40m between
Switch and Outlet.

IIRC, CAT5e should do 10G up to 40m, and 100m for CAT6

That is incorrect. Cat 5e is only certified to 1Gb.

If Cat6 does 10Gb up to 100m, then what speeds do you think you get with
Cat6A?




--
Eednud

On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 20:35:55 +0000, Eednud wrote:

Cat 5e will give Gb speed and Cat 6 will give 10Gb up to 40m between
Switch and Outlet.

IIRC, CAT5e should do 10G up to 40m, and 100m for CAT6

That is incorrect. Cat 5e is only certified to 1Gb.

If Cat6 does 10Gb up to 100m, then what speeds do you think you get with
Cat6A?

Can I just ask a stupid question here...

While there are times and places where the difference between 10Gb and
100Gb and 40m or 100m are relevant, is this even vaguely one of them?

Just to go back to the original question...

A mate is in the process of fitting out a new shop
....
He doesn't need much bandwidth as it will only be a bit of web
browsing, possibly some cloud based POS and remote access to his CCTV
....
FWIW, maximum run from router / switch to socket will be about 20m (as
the cable runs).

On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 20:41:24 +0000 (UTC), Adrian
wrote:

On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 20:35:55 +0000, Eednud wrote:

Cat 5e will give Gb speed and Cat 6 will give 10Gb up to 40m between
Switch and Outlet.

IIRC, CAT5e should do 10G up to 40m, and 100m for CAT6

That is incorrect. Cat 5e is only certified to 1Gb.

If Cat6 does 10Gb up to 100m, then what speeds do you think you get with
Cat6A?

Can I just ask a stupid question here...

While there are times and places where the difference between 10Gb and
100Gb and 40m or 100m are relevant, is this even vaguely one of them?

Just to go back to the original question...

A mate is in the process of fitting out a new shop
...
He doesn't need much bandwidth as it will only be a bit of web
browsing, possibly some cloud based POS and remote access to his CCTV
...
FWIW, maximum run from router / switch to socket will be about 20m (as
the cable runs).


Thanks for the reality check Adrian. ;-)

Yes, whilst I agree there may be a time when people often need 'more
speed', I can't see this particular installation being one of them.
So, I think it makes sense (to me anyway) to stick with the more
bread_and_butter range of kit as I can't see anything better being
appreciated. I'm also sure that any complication, cost or delay that
could be avoided by going for a more 'common' solution wouldn't be
appreciated either.

Anyway, loads of interesting thoughts and useful information as usual
so thanks to all who replied. ;-)

'Muggins' will probably be the one connecting it all up but I don't
mind as I (still) enjoy that sort of thing (and it will save my Krone
tool from going rusty).

Depending on the number of 'ends' they need (and I like the idea of
'doubling up' on any cable runs) we might use a small patch panel at
the router end and if not, just a few double RJ45 sockets.

All he needs (for the sparks who also does his CCTV stuff so isn't a
complete stranger to running 'other' cables) is the actual UTP cable
and so I'll make sure they get full fat copper. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 26/01/2016 20:35, Eednud wrote:
On 26/01/2016 20:16, John Rumm wrote:
On 26/01/2016 19:56, Eednud wrote:

Cat 5e will give Gb speed and Cat 6 will give 10Gb up to 40m between
Switch and Outlet.

IIRC, CAT5e should do 10G up to 40m, and 100m for CAT6

That is incorrect. Cat 5e is only certified to 1Gb.

I made no mention of what its certified to do, only what it achieves in
actual testing. Indeed the bandwidth requirement (500MHz) is well beyond
CAT5E official specs at 100MHz. However certified CAT5E must perform
better than the minimum spec to pass certification, so there is some
headroom. If you trade that off against maximum segment length, then you
will arrive at a very restricted length below which 10G will run over
*some* CAT5E segments.

e.g.

http://www.universalnetworks.co.uk/b...un-over-cat5e/

If Cat6 does 10Gb up to 100m, then what speeds do you think you get with
Cat6A?

To be fair I was being sloppy, and lumping all cat6 variants together.
You will need 6A for the full 100m. CAT6 will perform better than CAT5E
but not dramatically so. However since I have no experience using CAT6
in practice, I can't tell you what can be squeezed out of it. Reports I
have read suggest that 60m is the top end of what is realistic.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 26/01/2016 20:41, Adrian wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 20:35:55 +0000, Eednud wrote:

Can I just ask a stupid question here...

While there are times and places where the difference between 10Gb and
100Gb and 40m or 100m are relevant, is this even vaguely one of them?

Since some people have suggested installing CAT6 and above, it is
perhaps important to highlight what extra that will achieve. Hopefully
most will see the answer (from the OPs stated requirements) ought to be
"none".

In a domestic environment, I would not bother with CAT6 or above for
data applications, however it does have a use with a balun either end,
re-purposed to run HD video over it where the better cable will give
longer distances:

http://cpc.farnell.com/webapp/wcs/st...owResults=true


Just to go back to the original question...

A mate is in the process of fitting out a new shop
...
He doesn't need much bandwidth as it will only be a bit of web
browsing, possibly some cloud based POS and remote access to his CCTV
...
FWIW, maximum run from router / switch to socket will be about 20m (as
the cable runs).


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 08:33:48 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave wrote:

On Tuesday, 26 January 2016 16:12:37 UTC, Andy Burns wrote:
whisky-dave wrote:

if you gonna truely future proof don't use enthernet cable
of any kind use fibra optic cable.

If you do that, you'll spend a fortune on fibre capable switches, SFPs,
and NICs or media converters ... unless there's an identified need for
10 gigabit speed (and I'd be amazed if the owner was just asking a mate
if there were) I'd stick with cat5e.

I would too I wouldn't bother with cat6, but then again I wouldn't bother with cat5e either. Unless I know I rely need fast speed or was planing on playing games I'd use wireless throughout.
Brought one of these TP link things to go into another room. How many people need 1GB or even 500MB ?

Maybe I'll wait until quantum cat cables come about.

Now you've given a certain purveyor of Very Expensive Cables the idea, start
saving!
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

En el artículo , John
Rumm escribió:

10/100 is not always fast enough if you are doing much streaming of
video content over a home network, it also can't keep pace with the data
serving rate from even a basic NAS box.

Agreed. The media PC on the TV here copes with the data coming from the
NAS over a powerline link, just. The powerline inter-adapter link is
180Mbps but the ethernet ports are 100Mbps. The media PC really needs
gig.

I'll have to run a cable, was hoping to be able to avoid it.

Lastly if you do need to move
bulk data (say a 5GB image of a DVD), then you really notice the
difference in transfer rate.

+1. makes a big difference to my daily backups.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) Bunny says: Windows 10? Nein danke!
(")_(")

On Tuesday, 26 January 2016 23:48:50 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 26/01/2016 20:41, Adrian wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 20:35:55 +0000, Eednud wrote:

Can I just ask a stupid question here...

While there are times and places where the difference between 10Gb and
100Gb and 40m or 100m are relevant, is this even vaguely one of them?

Since some people have suggested installing CAT6 and above, it is
perhaps important to highlight what extra that will achieve. Hopefully
most will see the answer (from the OPs stated requirements) ought to be
"none".

Indeed. OTOH I remember when 10M was amazingly fast. Whatever goes in will become obsolete, make sure it's all fairly easy to replace.


NT

Can't comment on the vagaries or benefits of cat5/6 but in practice I use el cheapo (ebay) cat 5e for my cctv around the farm. Just run inaccessible routes in tube to enable drawing through replacements in the event of damage etc. Cable around twelve quid a hundred metres, tubing anything to hand. I've got one cable carrying three locally powered cameras with the fourth one of the pairs for ptz control in the future.
One of my runs to the front gate is 85 metres.

On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 22:26:02 +0000, T i m wrote:

Can I just ask a stupid question here...

While there are times and places where the difference between 10Gb and
100Gb and 40m or 100m are relevant, is this even vaguely one of them?

Just to go back to the original question...

A mate is in the process of fitting out a new shop
...
He doesn't need much bandwidth as it will only be a bit of web
browsing, possibly some cloud based POS and remote access to his CCTV
...
FWIW, maximum run from router / switch to socket will be about 20m (as
the cable runs).

Thanks for the reality check Adrian. ;-)

Yes, whilst I agree there may be a time when people often need 'more
speed', I can't see this particular installation being one of them. So,
I think it makes sense (to me anyway) to stick with the more
bread_and_butter range of kit as I can't see anything better being
appreciated. I'm also sure that any complication, cost or delay that
could be avoided by going for a more 'common' solution wouldn't be
appreciated either.

Have to admit, I think I'd just be starting off wirelessly.

On Wed, 27 Jan 2016 00:30:06 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

Can't comment on the vagaries or benefits of cat5/6 but in practice I use el cheapo (ebay) cat 5e for my cctv around the farm.

Ok.

Just run inaccessible routes in tube to enable drawing through replacements in the event of damage etc.

I will insist my mate runs all cable that is likely to be covered in a
conduit of some kind and if sharing a conduit with some power, it
would be suitably isolated by the conduit etc.

Cable around twelve quid a hundred metres,

So that's likely to be to copper covered steel John?

tubing anything to hand.

It's a farm, that's how it is eh? ;-)

I've got one cable carrying three locally powered cameras with the fourth one of the pairs for ptz control in the future.

Cool.

One of my runs to the front gate is 85 metres.

That's quite a run but has the advantage of being in an electrically
'quiet' environment (not that the cable material should have any
impact on that).

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 27 Jan 2016 09:10:10 +0000 (UTC), Adrian
wrote:

On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 22:26:02 +0000, T i m wrote:

Can I just ask a stupid question here...

While there are times and places where the difference between 10Gb and
100Gb and 40m or 100m are relevant, is this even vaguely one of them?

Just to go back to the original question...

A mate is in the process of fitting out a new shop
...
He doesn't need much bandwidth as it will only be a bit of web
browsing, possibly some cloud based POS and remote access to his CCTV
...
FWIW, maximum run from router / switch to socket will be about 20m (as
the cable runs).

Thanks for the reality check Adrian. ;-)

Yes, whilst I agree there may be a time when people often need 'more
speed', I can't see this particular installation being one of them. So,
I think it makes sense (to me anyway) to stick with the more
bread_and_butter range of kit as I can't see anything better being
appreciated. I'm also sure that any complication, cost or delay that
could be avoided by going for a more 'common' solution wouldn't be
appreciated either.

Have to admit, I think I'd just be starting off wirelessly.

There will be wireless in there of course for all the 'portable /
mobile' kit and may be used temporarily where the PC's are WiFi
enabled, but I think (from his experience with wireless in his other
shops) he would prefer the simple function/reliability of some bounded
networking (and I'd have to agree with him).

In another shop the router was in a back office but you couldn't get
reliable WiFi signal in the front. He got one of those WiFi
'repeaters' and whilst it helped it was a bit restricted where you
could actually put it (spare plug socket that wasn't already used or
where the repeater could be easily stolen etc) and whilst it would
still be in range of the router and to actually help in the front of
the shop. Had I been consulted I might have suggested a Powerline WiFi
adaptor or an AP in the front counter in the mini switch.

In this new place there is a 'mid office' where the router and main
'back office' PC's will be with network cables running forward to the
main counter and a couple of other working areas. There will also be
some network cables going to the rear of the shop where they will have
a stock store / a PC station / deliveries etc.

Al I have suggested so far is that the sparks should run some network
cable(s) to every discrete location and they can just use what they
need etc.

Router 16 Port switch 24 port Krone / RJ45 patch etc out to
wherever double RJ45 wall / floor / in-cabinet sockets.

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 27 Jan 2016 00:27:22 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Tuesday, 26 January 2016 23:48:50 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 26/01/2016 20:41, Adrian wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 20:35:55 +0000, Eednud wrote:

Can I just ask a stupid question here...

While there are times and places where the difference between 10Gb and
100Gb and 40m or 100m are relevant, is this even vaguely one of them?

Since some people have suggested installing CAT6 and above, it is
perhaps important to highlight what extra that will achieve. Hopefully
most will see the answer (from the OPs stated requirements) ought to be
"none".

Indeed. OTOH I remember when 10M was amazingly fast. Whatever goes in will become obsolete, make sure it's all fairly easy to replace.


Nearly all our kit is Gb (NIC's / Switches etc) and much of the cable
still Cat3 and it all seems to work (at least) ok.

When my server runs a daily backup on this XP Mac Mini it makes it run
very slow so the bottleneck is probably just the machine / OS.

Cheers, T i m

On 26/01/2016 11:32, T i m wrote:

He doesn't need much bandwidth as it will only be a bit of web
browsing, possibly some cloud based POS and remote access to his CCTV
so would Cat5e still be ok or should is Cat6 as easy / straightforward
to use and more 'future proof please?

I've just extended my network to the garage so I can put a NAS box out
of sight of anyone with sticky fingers. I'm usually shifting large
backup files so, for the difference in cost, there was little point in
not using Cat 6.

--
F

On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 12:37:16 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

A mate is in the process of fitting out a new shop and has asked
me
what he should do about running network points around the shop.

Cable is cheap, labour/access to install it isn't. If there is a need
for a network point fit two and two cables (1 Gb uses all four
pairs).

cat5e is good up to gigabit, but can't see him needing faster than
10/100 really, if he goes for cat6 the cable needs larger band radius
and is thicker, also outlets and patch panels may be more expensive.

And is less tolerant of being pulled and kinked during installation.
CAT5e will be fine but ensure it is copper not CCS or CCA. Might be
worth checking if the CCTV is going to use PoE IP cameras or coax and
twisted pair. Personally I'd be looking hard at IP based CCTV
solutions, there are some pretty highspec cameras out there for not
many pennies. Ones with on board recording, PIR detection, IR
illumination, 3 M pixel or more resolution.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Wednesday, 27 January 2016 10:58:05 UTC, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 12:37:16 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

A mate is in the process of fitting out a new shop and has asked
me
what he should do about running network points around the shop.

Cable is cheap, labour/access to install it isn't. If there is a need
for a network point fit two and two cables (1 Gb uses all four
pairs).

That's what I did. Of course I've had to do more wiring since, as 2 per point proved inadequate. I'll try not to make that mistake next time.


NT

On 27/01/2016 10:55, Dave Liquorice wrote:

Personally I'd be looking hard at IP based CCTV solutions, there are
some pretty highspec cameras out there for not many pennies. Ones
with on board recording, PIR detection, IR illumination, 3 M pixel or
more resolution.


You have to make sure the lens is up to it.
Normal CCTV lenses are not going to give a good picture on a 3/5 Mpixel
sensor.

On Wed, 27 Jan 2016 10:55:41 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 12:37:16 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

A mate is in the process of fitting out a new shop and has asked
me
what he should do about running network points around the shop.

Cable is cheap, labour/access to install it isn't. If there is a need
for a network point fit two and two cables (1 Gb uses all four
pairs).

What sort of money are we looking at for a 305m roll of solid copper
Cat5e please. I've seen all sorts of prices mentioned but I'm
interested what people in the know are *actually* paying?

cat5e is good up to gigabit, but can't see him needing faster than
10/100 really, if he goes for cat6 the cable needs larger band radius
and is thicker, also outlets and patch panels may be more expensive.

And is less tolerant of being pulled and kinked during installation.

And I know *I* would be careful doing that, I can't vouch for anyone
else.

CAT5e will be fine but ensure it is copper not CCS or CCA. Might be
worth checking if the CCTV is going to use PoE IP cameras or coax and
twisted pair.

In the other shop it's coax but it has been in there a while now.

Personally I'd be looking hard at IP based CCTV
solutions, there are some pretty highspec cameras out there for not
many pennies. Ones with on board recording, PIR detection, IR
illumination, 3 M pixel or more resolution.

Understood. I'm not advising on that side of it so out of my hands.
That said, if he is offered a choice he may well ask for my advice /
opinion but it's likely to come down to price and his perception of
value to him.

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 27 Jan 2016 10:45:08 +0000, F news@nowhere wrote:

On 26/01/2016 11:32, T i m wrote:

He doesn't need much bandwidth as it will only be a bit of web
browsing, possibly some cloud based POS and remote access to his CCTV
so would Cat5e still be ok or should is Cat6 as easy / straightforward
to use and more 'future proof please?

I've just extended my network to the garage so I can put a NAS box out
of sight of anyone with sticky fingers.

Ok, and house fires.

I'm usually shifting large
backup files so, for the difference in cost, there was little point in
not using Cat 6.

Fair enough.

When I upgraded my switch from 100M to Gb, I monitored the network
usage and the general time taken to do stuff. Given that the ends were
Gb and the cables short and able to support such, I can't say I really
saw much difference in the overall throughput, suggesting any
bottlenecks were elsewhere (like HDD access etc).

I think I looked into it and think I remember the use of a higher
performance NIC in the server, the basic 'on board' solutions weren't
typically very efficient?

Cheers, T i m

On 27/01/2016 13:10, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jan 2016 10:45:08 +0000, F news@nowhere wrote:

On 26/01/2016 11:32, T i m wrote:

He doesn't need much bandwidth as it will only be a bit of web
browsing, possibly some cloud based POS and remote access to his CCTV
so would Cat5e still be ok or should is Cat6 as easy / straightforward
to use and more 'future proof please?

I've just extended my network to the garage so I can put a NAS box out
of sight of anyone with sticky fingers.

Ok, and house fires.

I'm usually shifting large
backup files so, for the difference in cost, there was little point in
not using Cat 6.

Fair enough.

When I upgraded my switch from 100M to Gb, I monitored the network
usage and the general time taken to do stuff. Given that the ends were
Gb and the cables short and able to support such, I can't say I really
saw much difference in the overall throughput, suggesting any
bottlenecks were elsewhere (like HDD access etc).

I think I looked into it and think I remember the use of a higher
performance NIC in the server, the basic 'on board' solutions weren't
typically very efficient?

Pushing a 50GB file across the 25M of Cat 6 to the Proliant G8 server in
the garage I get a transfer speed of ~600Mbps.

--
F

On 27/01/16 12:52, wrote:
On Wednesday, 27 January 2016 10:58:05 UTC, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 12:37:16 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

A mate is in the process of fitting out a new shop and has asked
me
what he should do about running network points around the shop.

Cable is cheap, labour/access to install it isn't. If there is a need
for a network point fit two and two cables (1 Gb uses all four
pairs).

That's what I did. Of course I've had to do more wiring since, as 2 per point proved inadequate. I'll try not to make that mistake next time.


IME Don't really need to go much beyond four per point for normal
business users.

1. Printer
2. Desktop
3. Adhoc Laptop
4. Phone

However I once worked on an office build where 2 points were provided
for PCs and Phones. They'd forgotten each user had their own laser
printer which (due to the house system software) had to be installed
networked.

Opps.

--
Adrian C

On Wednesday, 27 January 2016 13:05:31 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jan 2016 10:55:41 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 12:37:16 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

A mate is in the process of fitting out a new shop and has asked
me
what he should do about running network points around the shop.

Cable is cheap, labour/access to install it isn't. If there is a need
for a network point fit two and two cables (1 Gb uses all four
pairs).

What sort of money are we looking at for a 305m roll of solid copper
Cat5e please. I've seen all sorts of prices mentioned but I'm
interested what people in the know are *actually* paying?

Our IT peolpe installed a lot of pretty purple cable last year.
http://www.rapidonline.com/Cabling/C...TP-305m-558767


unlikely to have ordered it from above probbley went to RS where prices can be over £230 for 105M

On 27/01/2016 13:37, Adrian Caspersz wrote:

However I once worked on an office build where 2 points were provided
for PCs and Phones. They'd forgotten each user had their own laser
printer which (due to the house system software) had to be installed
networked.

To my mind, there's always a power supply at every data outlet and when
a 4 port Gigabit switch costs less than £20 there's little point in
running loads of extra wire. Far neater to have a single wire coming out
of the wall to a switch hidden behind something.

On Wed, 27 Jan 2016 13:28:05 +0000, F news@nowhere wrote:

snip

When I upgraded my switch from 100M to Gb, I monitored the network
usage and the general time taken to do stuff. Given that the ends were
Gb and the cables short and able to support such, I can't say I really
saw much difference in the overall throughput, suggesting any
bottlenecks were elsewhere (like HDD access etc).

I think I looked into it and think I remember the use of a higher
performance NIC in the server, the basic 'on board' solutions weren't
typically very efficient?

Pushing a 50GB file across the 25M of Cat 6 to the Proliant G8 server in
the garage I get a transfer speed of ~600Mbps.

I'll have to test mine but being yours is a 'real' server (focused on
i/o and not economy like mine) is likely to be much better an ant
generic PC hardware running as a server.

Cheers, T i m

On 26/01/2016 11:32, T i m wrote:

He doesn't need much bandwidth as it will only be a bit of web
browsing, possibly some cloud based POS and remote access to his CCTV
so would Cat5e still be ok or should is Cat6 as easy / straightforward
to use and more 'future proof please?

to my mind Cat5 is going to be around for a very long time.
There must be millions of miles of the stuff in commercial buildings.

A bit like copper telephone wires to the house, signal technology will
always evolve for the most popular medium. Slowest annoyance will be the
upstream from his internet connection. It's going to be a fair while
before an upstream of 100Mbps becomes commonplace let alone Gbps.

For me, Cat6 is nothing more than a way of fudging around a slight
improvement to existing signal technology. It's a stop-gap between major
technology advances.... e.g. Li-Fi completely new technology not reliant
on outdated transfer mediums.

On Wed, 27 Jan 2016 15:03:20 +0000, "www.GymRatZ.co.uk"
wrote:

On 27/01/2016 13:37, Adrian Caspersz wrote:

However I once worked on an office build where 2 points were provided
for PCs and Phones. They'd forgotten each user had their own laser
printer which (due to the house system software) had to be installed
networked.

To my mind, there's always a power supply at every data outlet and when
a 4 port Gigabit switch costs less than £20 there's little point in
running loads of extra wire. Far neater to have a single wire coming out
of the wall to a switch hidden behind something.



That's why I'm not too worried about under-provisioning the points on
my mates shop. I'm not sure he knows completely yet what is going
where (it's just a shell atm), so as you say, as long as there is at
least one Ethernet cable then 5 port (even Gb) close, switches are
pretty cheap these days. ;-)

In one location I just stuck an old cable router set as an AP and that
gave WiFi and a 3 port hub. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 27 Jan 2016 15:18:03 +0000, "www.GymRatZ.co.uk"
wrote:

On 26/01/2016 11:32, T i m wrote:

He doesn't need much bandwidth as it will only be a bit of web
browsing, possibly some cloud based POS and remote access to his CCTV
so would Cat5e still be ok or should is Cat6 as easy / straightforward
to use and more 'future proof please?

to my mind Cat5 is going to be around for a very long time.
There must be millions of miles of the stuff in commercial buildings.

Agreed.

A bit like copper telephone wires to the house, signal technology will
always evolve for the most popular medium. Slowest annoyance will be the
upstream from his internet connection. It's going to be a fair while
before an upstream of 100Mbps becomes commonplace let alone Gbps.

Yeah, I'm not sure what my mate has got at this new shop but it's BT
and possibly fibre (over copper into the actual shop etc).

That said, all he really needs the up bandwidth for is viewing his
CCTV remotely and that's often done on a phone in any case.

For me, Cat6 is nothing more than a way of fudging around a slight
improvement to existing signal technology. It's a stop-gap between major
technology advances....

Ok. I did slightly involved in the use of Cat6 when another mate had
HDTV plumbed in around the house and they carried the TV signal over
that (and some boxes both ends, the remote being PoE).

e.g. Li-Fi completely new technology not reliant
on outdated transfer mediums.



You are probably right, and as long as he does as suggested and ensure
any cables the sparks run are in conduit, he shouldn't be trapped. ;-)

Cheers, T i m