On 09/05/2015 18:09, Jonno wrote:
The Medway Handyman scribbled


On 09/05/2015 13:28, tim..... wrote:

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
...

His first name & surname were very common English names, so I assume
English is his first language, although I might be wrong.

so what's the nationality of (one time world cycling champion) Tony
Martin then?

tim



Obviously I'd guess English, but as I said, I might be wrong.


Wrong, he's German.

German and a cyclist?

Shudder

--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

In message , Johnny B Good
writes
On Sat, 09 May 2015 11:10:29 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

On 09/05/15 10:41, The Medway Handyman wrote:

Not saying my grasp of grammar & punctuation is 100% perfect.

My spelling is terrible but I do know the general form of the word that
I am trying to type.

Which prompts the question; just how bad is our education system?

Very, judging by some of the Facebook posts I see.

Please keep in mind that such sources will have a very strong selection
bias towards a group with lower than normal literacy skills,

Really? given how ubiquitous FB is now, why would the people using it
have lower than normal literacy skills?

compounded
by the effect of using handheld keyboardless communication devices
(Smartphones and Tablets) which will strongly motivate the 'writing
style' to one of brevity in the extreme.


I think it's wrong to assume that just because someone writes in a
particular way on FB, that they don't know who to write in
better/standard, whatever you want to call it, way.

Eldest daughter (14) and her friends can write perfectly good English,
but on FB they can sometimes write with all sorts of text speak, odd
contractions, and the sorts of teen speak that has always happened etc.
(and yes, the use of mobiles, smartphones etc. does tend to encourage
this a bit)

It's more I think a case of communication appropriate to the medium and
the audience. Chatting online, they do it in a form that suits them.

It doesn't mean they can't then go and write a grammatically correct
essay.




--
Chris French

"Richard" wrote in message
...
"Phil L" wrote in message ...
**** poor is the answer, most kids can't even do simple maths, I'm in a
darts team and virtually no one under 30 can mark the board - they can't
knock 60 off 140 without asking for help, and if a treble seventeen gets
hit, they're ****ed.

What's the reward for treble twenty?

You get sixty knocked off your score

On 09/05/15 16:19, Mr Pounder Esquire wrote:

I booted FB off about 4 years ago. I think I may have sent a couple of
messages on it. The quality and intelligence of the users depressed me.
By coincidence I rejoined today. Nothing seems to have changed.
Thing is that some of the people there have a brain, but they put it to
sleep when they log on.
When I have finished being nosey I'll boot it off again.


Indeed - but if you have a local group, then it's not much different to
any other forum

It makes sense - FB lets anyone setup a group with
public/private/semiprivate settings - you can post text, photos and vids.

That's why it's popular and I cannot argue with that.

Afterall, USENET has alt.alt.alt.some********.with.trolls.and.kiddeez

On 09/05/2015 13:04, Fredxxx wrote:
....
At various times I have looked at statistics of literacy and those with
a reading age lower than 9 has remained remarkably stable over the
decades, around 20-25%...

That is why The Sun sets its target reading age at 8.


--
Colin Bignell

On 09/05/15 16:22, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Tim Watts
wrote:

On 09/05/15 13:05, Fredxxx wrote:
On 09/05/2015 11:10, Tim Watts wrote:
On 09/05/15 10:41, The Medway Handyman wrote:

Not saying my grasp of grammar & punctuation is 100% perfect.

My spelling is terrible but I do know the general form of the word that
I am trying to type.

Which prompts the question; just how bad is our education system?

Very, judging by some of the Facebook posts I see.

I think that says more about who uses facebook.

Cute - but a little snobby.

Round my way, FB is used as the defacto local forum and everyone from
the councillors to old retired dudes are on it.

Even though the Facebook Ts&Cs mean they own you.


Quite frankly for that sort of group, no one gives a sh*t. Anything
posted there is as good as public domain and FB provide a useful product
- I do not begrudge them making money somehow.

For those times you really care, you set up your own forum.

For everything else, there's FB - and without FB, we might not have a
local forum, so it's to the good.

On 09/05/15 16:30, Fredxxx wrote:
**** poor is the answer, most kids can't even do simple maths, I'm in a
darts team and virtually no one under 30 can mark the board - they can't
knock 60 off 140 without asking for help, and if a treble seventeen gets
hit, they're ****ed.

With respect, much of the scoring by many is through usage. Perhaps
maths/arithmetic lessons should include darts playing? I suspect H&S
might get in the way, eye protection required, sterilised darts!


A little context:

My mam smoked like a chimney - and I recall back in the late 70's /
early 80's she got a bit incredulous with a teenage shop assistant who
upon selling her 10 packets of fags, reached for their calculator to
work out the price!

It's not a uniquely modern concept.

I also knew a bloke who could to add up in a shop to save his life as he
was putting products in his basket (we were students with limited dosh).

He got a first in pure maths and the uni asked him to stay on for a PhD
- but he declined as he'd worked out being an actuary paid lots

On 09/05/15 17:41, Jim GM4DHJ in the trailer park ... wrote:
Doing "tee hee" along with his stupid nym makes him look like a spotty
15-year old twerp.

It's just because I use different computers indicating different
locations...tee hee



titter

;-

On 09/05/15 17:53, The Medway Handyman wrote:
On 09/05/2015 15:37, Tim Watts wrote:
On 09/05/15 13:05, Fredxxx wrote:
On 09/05/2015 11:10, Tim Watts wrote:
On 09/05/15 10:41, The Medway Handyman wrote:

Not saying my grasp of grammar & punctuation is 100% perfect.

My spelling is terrible but I do know the general form of the word that
I am trying to type.

Which prompts the question; just how bad is our education system?

Very, judging by some of the Facebook posts I see.

I think that says more about who uses facebook.

Cute - but a little snobby.

Round my way, FB is used as the defacto local forum and everyone from
the councillors to old retired dudes are on it.

Apparently kids have stopped using FB because so many adults use it and
it's not private or cool enough.


I have heard that - but I'm not totally convinced.

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 09/05/15 17:41, Jim GM4DHJ in the trailer park ... wrote:
Doing "tee hee" along with his stupid nym makes him look like a spotty
15-year old twerp.

It's just because I use different computers indicating different
locations...tee hee



titter

;-

shocking

"Phil L" wrote in message ...


"Richard" wrote in message
...
"Phil L" wrote in message ...
**** poor is the answer, most kids can't even do simple maths, I'm in a
darts team and virtually no one under 30 can mark the board - they can't
knock 60 off 140 without asking for help, and if a treble seventeen gets
hit, they're ****ed.

What's the reward for treble twenty?

You get sixty knocked off your score

In lieu of being ****ed, or in addition to?

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 09/05/15 16:19, Mr Pounder Esquire wrote:

I booted FB off about 4 years ago. I think I may have sent a couple of
messages on it. The quality and intelligence of the users depressed me.
By coincidence I rejoined today. Nothing seems to have changed.
Thing is that some of the people there have a brain, but they put it to
sleep when they log on.
When I have finished being nosey I'll boot it off again.


Indeed - but if you have a local group, then it's not much different to
any other forum

It makes sense - FB lets anyone setup a group with
public/private/semiprivate settings - you can post text, photos and vids.

That's why it's popular and I cannot argue with that.

Afterall, USENET has alt.alt.alt.some********.with.trolls.and.kiddeez



I had a look at the 31 year ape boy and man beast girlfriend who still live
with his parents next door.
She had put a photo of her family there and it was like a photo from the
Munsters. She really should not have done it.
I gave her messages a brief look at, but lost interest after:- dude, g8,
tonite @ me plce, xxxxxx and loads more crap.
The other people I have looked at are just about the same.
The old CB Radios had more intelligent people using them.

"Jim GM4DHJ in the trailer park ..." wrote
in message ...

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 09/05/15 17:41, Jim GM4DHJ in the trailer park ... wrote:
Doing "tee hee" along with his stupid nym makes him look like a spotty
15-year old twerp.

It's just because I use different computers indicating different
locations...tee hee



titter

;-

shocking
Third rate troll.

"Richard" wrote in message
...
"Phil L" wrote in message ...


"Richard" wrote in message
...
"Phil L" wrote in message ...
**** poor is the answer, most kids can't even do simple maths, I'm in a
darts team and virtually no one under 30 can mark the board - they can't
knock 60 off 140 without asking for help, and if a treble seventeen gets
hit, they're ****ed.

What's the reward for treble twenty?

You get sixty knocked off your score

In lieu of being ****ed, or in addition to?

In addition to

On 09/05/15 20:12, Mr Pounder Esquire wrote:
I had a look at the 31 year ape boy and man beast girlfriend who still live
with his parents next door.
She had put a photo of her family there and it was like a photo from the
Munsters. She really should not have done it.

Are the parents normal?

I gave her messages a brief look at, but lost interest after:- dude, g8,
tonite @ me plce, xxxxxx and loads more crap.

I had a student send me a job request like that once. I sent it back
with a request to speak English.

The other people I have looked at are just about the same.
The old CB Radios had more intelligent people using them.

I was going to say it was because a CB require some effort to put
together - but somehow some people manage to get a PC going long enough
to post broken english. I blame Apple...

On 09/05/2015 16:31, newshound wrote:
On 09/05/2015 15:44, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Sat, 09 May 2015 10:41:57 +0100, The Medway Handyman wrote:



Which prompts the question; just how bad is our education system?

In general, not as bad as it is in the US of A. However, that's not
saying very much and I'm rather of the opinion that the standard has been
dropping over the past half century or so here in the UK (or at least in
England, I shouldn't presume anything about the other nations'
educational system's merits).



I'm inclined to agree about falling standards, except that when I was
doing some Milk Round interviews about 20 years ago I was amazed at the
quality of undergraduates from Strathclyde as compared to (iirc)
Sheffield, Manchester, Bristol, and Cardiff. At the UK universities I
was typically picking one in five for second interview, at Strathclyde
it was four in five (and the fifth wasn't bad).

You won't learn nothing at school these days mate, apart from perhaps
(and most important of all) how to get on with a lot of other kids.
OTOH a 3 year old acquaintance of mine is constantly asking me to repeat
myself. Any new word is seized upon, and she is obviously interested in
language

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 09/05/15 20:12, Mr Pounder Esquire wrote:
I had a look at the 31 year ape boy and man beast girlfriend who still
live
with his parents next door.
She had put a photo of her family there and it was like a photo from the
Munsters. She really should not have done it.

Are the parents normal?

I gave her messages a brief look at, but lost interest after:- dude, g8,
tonite @ me plce, xxxxxx and loads more crap.

I had a student send me a job request like that once. I sent it back with
a request to speak English.

You must have been desperate for staff if you replied to him.

The other people I have looked at are just about the same.
The old CB Radios had more intelligent people using them.

I was going to say it was because a CB require some effort to put
together - but somehow some people manage to get a PC going long enough to
post broken english. I blame Apple...

Well, I just plugged mine in, used a SWR meter and it worked. I don't
remember what SWR means.
Mr Pounder was bucket mouthing in 1980 and has not stopped since. I blame
Packard Bell ...

On 09/05/15 21:17, Mr Pounder Esquire wrote:
"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 09/05/15 20:12, Mr Pounder Esquire wrote:
I had a look at the 31 year ape boy and man beast girlfriend who still
live
with his parents next door.
She had put a photo of her family there and it was like a photo from the
Munsters. She really should not have done it.

Are the parents normal?

I gave her messages a brief look at, but lost interest after:- dude, g8,
tonite @ me plce, xxxxxx and loads more crap.

I had a student send me a job request like that once. I sent it back with
a request to speak English.

You must have been desperate for staff if you replied to him.

Sorry - IT Job aka Help ticket...


The other people I have looked at are just about the same.
The old CB Radios had more intelligent people using them.

I was going to say it was because a CB require some effort to put
together - but somehow some people manage to get a PC going long enough to
post broken english. I blame Apple...

Well, I just plugged mine in, used a SWR meter and it worked. I don't
remember what SWR means.
Mr Pounder was bucket mouthing in 1980 and has not stopped since. I blame
Packard Bell ...

Harry Bloomfield wrote
Rod Speed wrote

I would say its only recently noticeable by some
as more communication is now by written word.

Yeah, I bet that is the main effect.

I wonder who used to see what the dregs wrote in the past ?

Presumably teachers and those who run the dole queues.

Actually, a very good point I had not considered - yes there is
much more written communication these days, but I don't recall
anyone who couldn't read or write to a standard before all of this.

I actually know a couple of them personally. And just last week,
I had a fellow who must be in his late 60s or 70s who does
occasionally show up in person to hand me a letter of mine
that has been delivered to his house in the next street over
with the same number as mine. This time it was one of those
letters that everyone gets, addressed to the householder.
He decided that there was no one by that name at his
place so it must have been one of mine gone astray again.

Yes, some of the stuff you see on the facebook buy sell swap
groups is stunningly illiterate and isn't just due to the electronic
keyboards that so many use for facebook now on their phones.
Like the very common use of the word draws when they mean
drawers and duel instead of dual.

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 09/05/15 13:04, Fredxxx wrote:

At various times I have looked at statistics of literacy and those with
a reading age lower than 9 has remained remarkably stable over the
decades, around 20-25%.

That is extremely depressing.

But you dont get that result with those who can't read at all.

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 09/05/15 13:05, Fredxxx wrote:
On 09/05/2015 11:10, Tim Watts wrote:
On 09/05/15 10:41, The Medway Handyman wrote:

Not saying my grasp of grammar & punctuation is 100% perfect.

My spelling is terrible but I do know the general form of the word that
I am trying to type.

Which prompts the question; just how bad is our education system?

Very, judging by some of the Facebook posts I see.

I think that says more about who uses facebook.

Cute - but a little snobby.

Round my way, FB is used as the defacto local forum and everyone from the
councillors to old retired dudes are on it.

Yeah, particularly with the buy sell swap groups that
leave earlier stuff like Craig's List and Freecycle for dead.

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , Tim Watts
wrote:

On 09/05/15 13:05, Fredxxx wrote:
On 09/05/2015 11:10, Tim Watts wrote:
On 09/05/15 10:41, The Medway Handyman wrote:

Not saying my grasp of grammar & punctuation is 100% perfect.

My spelling is terrible but I do know the general form of the word that
I am trying to type.

Which prompts the question; just how bad is our education system?

Very, judging by some of the Facebook posts I see.

I think that says more about who uses facebook.

Cute - but a little snobby.

Round my way, FB is used as the defacto local forum and everyone from the
councillors to old retired dudes are on it.

Even though the Facebook Ts&Cs mean they own you.

They dont own me, whatever they claim.

On Sat, 09 May 2015 19:51:57 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

I'm in a darts team and virtually no one under 30 can mark the
board -
they can't knock 60 off 140 without asking for help, and if a
treble
seventeen gets hit, they're ****ed.

As has been said practice and memory. If they marked the board
regulary they would know what treble 17 was they wouldn't have to
work it out then deduct it from the score.

Make 'em score it'll do 'em good.

My mam smoked like a chimney - and I recall back in the late 70's /
early 80's she got a bit incredulous with a teenage shop assistant who
upon selling her 10 packets of fags, reached for their calculator to
work out the price!

Be fair the teenager would have been brought up with £SD. they could
have worked out (if not known) the price 10 packs at 1/9 but this new
fangled deciaml stuff...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sat, 09 May 2015 13:07:11 +0100, Fredxxx wrote:

Interesting, I recall my early French lessons where everyone was given a
French name and this was always used to address us in French lessons. I
can't remember mine!

They just took the French version of our English names, there is
normally something close enough or you drop to Franglaise.

I can sort of understand the Chinese apparent random adoption of a
western name. Spoken Chinese is tonal. Such tonality doesn't exist in
Western spoken languages(*), so a westerner really struggles to get
the tone right. Get the tone wrong and "jasmine" turns into "cow pat"
or "table leg", that probably can't happen but it serves to
illustrate.

(*) Western speech does use tone but over whole words or sequence of
words, like the rising tone at the end of sentence used to signify a
question.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 09/05/15 17:53, The Medway Handyman wrote:
On 09/05/2015 15:37, Tim Watts wrote:
On 09/05/15 13:05, Fredxxx wrote:
On 09/05/2015 11:10, Tim Watts wrote:
On 09/05/15 10:41, The Medway Handyman wrote:

Not saying my grasp of grammar & punctuation is 100% perfect.

My spelling is terrible but I do know the general form of the word
that
I am trying to type.

Which prompts the question; just how bad is our education system?

Very, judging by some of the Facebook posts I see.

I think that says more about who uses facebook.

Cute - but a little snobby.

Round my way, FB is used as the defacto local forum and everyone from
the councillors to old retired dudes are on it.

Apparently kids have stopped using FB because so many adults use it and
it's not private or cool enough.


I have heard that - but I'm not totally convinced.

Yeah, I know its not true because the kids that are
too young to have much money to spend on phone
calls and who dont even have a phone use FB when
they want to borrow something from me etc. One tried
to borrow my hot melt gun from me yesterday that way.

In message , Tim Watts
writes
On 09/05/15 17:53, The Medway Handyman wrote:
On 09/05/2015 15:37, Tim Watts wrote:
On 09/05/15 13:05, Fredxxx wrote:
On 09/05/2015 11:10, Tim Watts wrote:
On 09/05/15 10:41, The Medway Handyman wrote:

Not saying my grasp of grammar & punctuation is 100% perfect.

My spelling is terrible but I do know the general form of the word that
I am trying to type.

Which prompts the question; just how bad is our education system?

Very, judging by some of the Facebook posts I see.

I think that says more about who uses facebook.

Cute - but a little snobby.

Round my way, FB is used as the defacto local forum and everyone from
the councillors to old retired dudes are on it.

Apparently kids have stopped using FB because so many adults use it and
it's not private or cool enough.


I have heard that - but I'm not totally convinced.

Well, they certainly haven't stopped using it amongst my daughters
friends. Having a teenage daughter, pretty much all her friends are on
it, and use it quite a bit - (I'm aware of only a couple of teenagers
who aren't), and Facebook Messenger is one of their standard ways of
communicating one to one

They might use other things as well, Whatsapp, Snapchat, whatever, but
Facebook still seems to be an important means of communication for them.
There isn't really an alternative that provides the sort of
communication it offers.

--
Chris French

"Mr Pounder Esquire" wrote in message
...

"Jim GM4DHJ in the trailer park ..." wrote
in message ...

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 09/05/15 17:41, Jim GM4DHJ in the trailer park ... wrote:
Doing "tee hee" along with his stupid nym makes him look like a spotty
15-year old twerp.

It's just because I use different computers indicating different
locations...tee hee



titter

;-

shocking
Third rate troll.



no Kwality ...

On 10/05/15 08:51, Huge wrote:

"Ma" can mean "mother" or "horse", according to how you pronounce it. Or so I'm told.


That is correct.

I believe it can mean a couple of other things too (there are 4 possible
tones on any given vowel: rising, falling, high and fall-rise).

Confused? I am...

On 10/05/15 09:00, Tim Watts wrote:
On 10/05/15 08:51, Huge wrote:

"Ma" can mean "mother" or "horse", according to how you pronounce it.
Or so I'm told.


That is correct.

I believe it can mean a couple of other things too (there are 4 possible
tones on any given vowel: rising, falling, high and fall-rise).

Confused? I am...

Oh - and then add regional accents (let alone full on dialects) in.

Appointment letters from hospitals seem to have been cobbled together from
standard paragraphs which often are unwisely chosen, in some cases you get
the same one twice with different parameters added.
Also, they bother to ask you about your communication needs and duly note
it down, then proceed to send everyone the paper letters even if the
patient is actually blind.
I do begin to wonder sometimes if the people who train or employ people in
admin ever actually do an audit of how well they do the jobs.
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
. uk...
Rod Speed wrote on 09/05/2015 :
I would say its only recently noticeable by some as more communication
is now by written word.

Yeah, I bet that is the main effect.

I wonder who used to see what the dregs wrote in the past ?

Presumably teachers and those who run the dole queues.

Actually, a very good point I had not considered - yes there is much more
written communication these days, but I don't recall anyone who couldn't
read or write to a standard before all of this.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

"Jonno" wrote in message
...
The Medway Handyman scribbled


On 09/05/2015 13:28, tim..... wrote:

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
...

His first name & surname were very common English names, so I assume
English is his first language, although I might be wrong.

so what's the nationality of (one time world cycling champion) Tony
Martin then?

tim



Obviously I'd guess English, but as I said, I might be wrong.


Wrong, he's German.

Swiss actually

tim

"F" news@nowhere wrote in message
o.uk...
On 09/05/2015 10:41, The Medway Handyman wrote:

His first name & surname were very common English names, so I assume
English is his first language, although I might be wrong.

You can't make that assumption.

****ing can.

That's what assumptions a-)


--
Adam

"tim....." wrote in message
...

"Jonno" wrote in message
...
The Medway Handyman scribbled


On 09/05/2015 13:28, tim..... wrote:

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
...

His first name & surname were very common English names, so I assume
English is his first language, although I might be wrong.

so what's the nationality of (one time world cycling champion) Tony
Martin then?

tim



Obviously I'd guess English, but as I said, I might be wrong.


Wrong, he's German.

Swiss actually

Where do you get that from?



--
Adam

"ARW" wrote in message
...
"tim....." wrote in message
...

"Jonno" wrote in message
...
The Medway Handyman scribbled


On 09/05/2015 13:28, tim..... wrote:

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
...

His first name & surname were very common English names, so I assume
English is his first language, although I might be wrong.

so what's the nationality of (one time world cycling champion) Tony
Martin then?

tim



Obviously I'd guess English, but as I said, I might be wrong.


Wrong, he's German.

Swiss actually

Where do you get that from?

cos I got confused - he's German :-(

tim





--
Adam

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
...




Obviously I'd guess English, but as I said, I might be wrong.


Wrong, he's German.

German and a cyclist?


Legitimate target:-)

--
Adam

"tim....." wrote in message
...
Swiss actually

Where do you get that from?

cos I got confused - he's German :-(



:-) Vot is his name?


--
Adam

On Sun, 10 May 2015 13:58:37 +0100, ARW wrote:

"tim....." wrote in message
...
Swiss actually

Where do you get that from?

cos I got confused - he's German :-(



:-) Vot is his name?

Don't tell him, Pike!

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
This last bit may be more key than many realise. Its the first time in
history in which large swathes of jo public get to have their written
communications "published" for the world to see. In the past, many that
were poor at written communications would have avoided doing so as far
as possible. Now, not so much!

The one good thing is that some kids who didn't see the point in much do
learn how to use SMS. Maybe a pain if that's always how they write - but
better than nothing. Just wish the more intelligent would keep textspeak
for their phones only.

--
*Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Actually, a very good point I had not considered - yes there is much
more written communication these days, but I don't recall anyone who
couldn't read or write to a standard before all of this.

I doubt you would if you went to the average school. Those with learning
difficulties get separated out.

FWIW, I find it slow to use handwriting these days. So out of practice. ;-)

--
*Rehab is for quitters

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Mr Pounder Esquire wrote:
I booted FB off about 4 years ago. I think I may have sent a couple of
messages on it. The quality and intelligence of the users depressed me.
By coincidence I rejoined today. Nothing seems to have changed.
Thing is that some of the people there have a brain, but they put it to
sleep when they log on.
When I have finished being nosey I'll boot it off again.

Strange. The vast majority of stuff I see on Facebook comes from my
'friends'. If anyone posts lots of rubbish I just stop 'following' them.
But only had to do this twice. One was a lady friend who liked to post
pictures of shoes. Several times a day. ;-) Never knew of her excessive
interest in them in all the years I've know her.

--
*Reality is a crutch for people who can't handle drugs.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.