Tim Streater wrote
Arfa Daily wrote

I'm assuming that the 'chip' on each cartridge
is a simple dedicated microcontroller ...

But what is the chip on each cart *for* ?

In theory to make it harder to refill the carts.

My first decent inkjet, Canon iP4000, didn't
have chips on its carts. Subsequent ones do.

But the non genuine carts come with chips.

I'd assumed it was so that e.g. Canon could force you to use
their carts, but the 3rd party people seem able to supply carts
with chips OK, so I'm left wondering what the point is.

It does stop people injecting more ink into the existing cart.

Not that many bother anymore with the
non genuine replacement cart so cheap.


The industry is clearly making their money on the ink,
not the printers themselves with the low end inkjets.

"Michael Black" wrote in message
news:alpine.LNX.2.02.1407150928360.29153@darkstar. example.org...
On Tue, 15 Jul 2014, tim..... wrote:


"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Fredxxx wrote
William Sommerwerck wrote
Jabba wrote

Vote with your wallet, don't buy inkjets.

If you want color, there's no inexpensive alternative. Is there?

Boots and other online printing services. Even cheaper.

Not when you include the cost of driving to pick it up.

If quantity requires then get a colour laser with an eye on the cost
of replacing toner cartridges.

Ink-jets are remarkably unreliable.

Mine arent.

I have to say that hasn't been my experience, either. All of the HPs
that I've owned over the years have been remarkably reliable given the
level of use and abuse that they get.

I've stuck with Canons myself and have only ever had the one failure
just recently, of the main logic card.
Mate of mine has gone thru 3 Canons now, all with some sort of
electronics failure.

I've had 2 printers in my lifetime

what do you guys do to get through so many?

1982, my first printer, a dot matrix, cost five hundred dollars Canadian.
It was horribly slow, didn't do descenders properly, and was about as
cheap as I could get.

1984, a daisy wheel printer, spent about four hundred dollars on it.
Needed it because the dot matrix was no good for anything but rough drafts
and program listings. It was like a typewriter with the keyboard removed
and a serial interface added. It was slow too, fast enough that I
couldn't go and do anything before I had to roll another sheet of paper
in, but slow enough that I'd just wait for that next sheet of paper.

1989 a second dot matrix, only about $300. This one was much faster, and
could do "near letter quality" that was good enough for me. So it
replaced both of the previous printers, the daisy wheel had failed anyway
because some plastic gear had worn out.

1994 about. A used Apple Imagewriter dot matrix printer, paid about $20
for it. I think I still have it, it's the sort of thing (like the first
dot matrix) that would jsut keep running and running. Cost a lot new, you
see that in it's lack of flimsiness. I needed it because I was using a
Mac at the time.

2001, my first inkjet. Paid about $15 at a garage sale, the seller even
warned me that the cartridge needed refilling. So I got a refill kid,
spent about as much as the printer for two fillings. This was an Apple
Stylewriter, still a sturdy printer (and people paid lots for them
originally). I used up the first refill within a month, the novelty of
being able to print graphics fast and easily taking control. But then I
saw that when the ink got wet, it smeared, which meant the second refill
was barely used, and I never used an inkjet since.

2001, that fall. I got a TI I think it was laser printer for $20 at a
school rummage sale. I used it until the toner ran out, more novelty of
laser printing. But, it was an off-brand and old, and since there seemed
to be some printing problem (I wasn't sure if refilling the toner would
fix that or not), I decided not to spend money on refilling it.

About 2003. An HP 4P laser printer, $15 at a Rotary Club "garage sale".
It had a very short page count, the door over the ram expansion slots was
missing and the toner cartridge was a generic (as if the original had been
swapped before the printer was donated to the sale). I used up what was
left of the toner cartridge, and over the next few years was printing
quite a bit, because it was cheap, so I bought two refilled cartridges,
though the second one is still in use a decade or so later. I see no sign
that this is going to die, especially since that period of peak printing
is in the past.

If the laser printer dies, I'd just poke around until I found another one.
Those too are being tossed, I assume in many cases because they are now
cheap and so nobody is fussing over the waste. Since I can find one lying
on the sidewalk, the cost of a refilled cartridge isn't so bad, since
someone else has paid for the printer.

There was a period when I kept bringing home inkjet printers found on the
sidewalk, the plan had been to put one into use for color, but I just
couldn't be bothered. The cost of the cartridges, the reality that I
don't print enough color to use up the cartridges before they dry out,

I don't print much at all and don't find the Canon BCI3 carts dry out at
all.

the fact that the ink smears, even free the inkjet printers aren't
appealing.

I don't see it smearing as long as you let it dry after printing.

I don't bother to print photos at all and if I did, I'd use a commercial
printer.

Though, one time when I needed something like 24Vdc power supply, I found
just what I needed when I opened up one of those inkjet printers.

Generally PC power supplies are better for that
sort of thing because they are packaged properly.

tim..... wrote
Rod Speed wrote
tim..... wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Arfa Daily wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Fredxxx wrote
William Sommerwerck wrote
Jabba wrote

Vote with your wallet, don't buy inkjets.

If you want color, there's no inexpensive alternative. Is there?

Boots and other online printing services. Even cheaper.

Not when you include the cost of driving to pick it up.

If quantity requires then get a colour laser with
an eye on the cost of replacing toner cartridges.

Ink-jets are remarkably unreliable.

Mine arent.

I have to say that hasn't been my experience, either. All of the
HPs that I've owned over the years have been remarkably
reliable given the level of use and abuse that they get.

I've stuck with Canons myself and have only ever had
the one failure just recently, of the main logic card.

Mate of mine has gone thru 3 Canons now,
all with some sort of electronics failure.

I've had 2 printers in my lifetime

Yebbut, your lifetime is a hell of a lot shorter than some of ours.

That's irrelevant

Nope, it explains why some of us have had more printers than you have.

what relevant is the amount of time that it has been
reasonable for individuals to own their own printer,
and my adulthood covers all of that period

No it does not with the biggest printers like the
LA180 that was as big as a washing machine.

With all of mine the reason I moved on to a different
one was because the replacement did more than what
it replaced. In the case of the last inkjet it was because
it would print on CDs and DVDs as well as paper.

In theory I am still lacking in one area. The inkjet printers
that are later than the latest I have will actually photocopy
the CD/DVD with what is printed on it since they have a
scanner as well as the printer which makes if very easy
to make a copy of a commercial CD or DVD. But since
I don't get software that way anymore or music either,
I don't have any need to do that.

On 15.07.14 21:50, Rod Speed wrote:


"Michael Black" wrote in message
news:alpine.LNX.2.02.1407150928360.29153@darkstar. example.org...
On Tue, 15 Jul 2014, tim..... wrote:


"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Fredxxx wrote
William Sommerwerck wrote
Jabba wrote

Vote with your wallet, don't buy inkjets.

If you want color, there's no inexpensive alternative. Is there?

Boots and other online printing services. Even cheaper.

Not when you include the cost of driving to pick it up.

If quantity requires then get a colour laser with an eye on the cost
of replacing toner cartridges.

Ink-jets are remarkably unreliable.

Mine arent.

I have to say that hasn't been my experience, either. All of the HPs
that I've owned over the years have been remarkably reliable given the
level of use and abuse that they get.

I've stuck with Canons myself and have only ever had the one failure
just recently, of the main logic card.
Mate of mine has gone thru 3 Canons now, all with some sort of
electronics failure.

I've had 2 printers in my lifetime

what do you guys do to get through so many?

1982, my first printer, a dot matrix, cost five hundred dollars Canadian.
It was horribly slow, didn't do descenders properly, and was about as
cheap as I could get.

1984, a daisy wheel printer, spent about four hundred dollars on it.
Needed it because the dot matrix was no good for anything but rough drafts
and program listings. It was like a typewriter with the keyboard removed
and a serial interface added. It was slow too, fast enough that I
couldn't go and do anything before I had to roll another sheet of paper
in, but slow enough that I'd just wait for that next sheet of paper.

1989 a second dot matrix, only about $300. This one was much faster, and
could do "near letter quality" that was good enough for me. So it
replaced both of the previous printers, the daisy wheel had failed anyway
because some plastic gear had worn out.

1994 about. A used Apple Imagewriter dot matrix printer, paid about $20
for it. I think I still have it, it's the sort of thing (like the first
dot matrix) that would jsut keep running and running. Cost a lot new, you
see that in it's lack of flimsiness. I needed it because I was using a
Mac at the time.

2001, my first inkjet. Paid about $15 at a garage sale, the seller even
warned me that the cartridge needed refilling. So I got a refill kid,
spent about as much as the printer for two fillings. This was an Apple
Stylewriter, still a sturdy printer (and people paid lots for them
originally). I used up the first refill within a month, the novelty of
being able to print graphics fast and easily taking control. But then I
saw that when the ink got wet, it smeared, which meant the second refill
was barely used, and I never used an inkjet since.

2001, that fall. I got a TI I think it was laser printer for $20 at a
school rummage sale. I used it until the toner ran out, more novelty of
laser printing. But, it was an off-brand and old, and since there seemed
to be some printing problem (I wasn't sure if refilling the toner would
fix that or not), I decided not to spend money on refilling it.

About 2003. An HP 4P laser printer, $15 at a Rotary Club "garage sale".
It had a very short page count, the door over the ram expansion slots was
missing and the toner cartridge was a generic (as if the original had been
swapped before the printer was donated to the sale). I used up what was
left of the toner cartridge, and over the next few years was printing
quite a bit, because it was cheap, so I bought two refilled cartridges,
though the second one is still in use a decade or so later. I see no sign
that this is going to die, especially since that period of peak printing
is in the past.

If the laser printer dies, I'd just poke around until I found another one.
Those too are being tossed, I assume in many cases because they are now
cheap and so nobody is fussing over the waste. Since I can find one lying
on the sidewalk, the cost of a refilled cartridge isn't so bad, since
someone else has paid for the printer.

There was a period when I kept bringing home inkjet printers found on the
sidewalk, the plan had been to put one into use for color, but I just
couldn't be bothered. The cost of the cartridges, the reality that I
don't print enough color to use up the cartridges before they dry out,

I don't print much at all and don't find the Canon BCI3 carts dry out at
all.

the fact that the ink smears, even free the inkjet printers aren't
appealing.

I don't see it smearing as long as you let it dry after printing.

I don't bother to print photos at all and if I did, I'd use a commercial
printer.

Though, one time when I needed something like 24Vdc power supply, I found
just what I needed when I opened up one of those inkjet printers.

Generally PC power supplies are better for that
sort of thing because they are packaged properly.

Please tell us how to get 24 volts out of PC power supplies..........

On 15/07/2014 21:12, Sjouke Burry wrote:

Please tell us how to get 24 volts out of PC power supplies..........

Heavy Goods PCs.

--
Rod

On 15/07/2014 21:12 Sjouke Burry wrote:

[136 lines trimmed]

Please tell us how to get 24 volts out of PC power supplies..........

FFS learn to trim.

--
F

"Sjouke Burry" wrote in message
...
On 15.07.14 21:50, Rod Speed wrote:


"Michael Black" wrote in message
news:alpine.LNX.2.02.1407150928360.29153@darkstar. example.org...
On Tue, 15 Jul 2014, tim..... wrote:


"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Fredxxx wrote
William Sommerwerck wrote
Jabba wrote

Vote with your wallet, don't buy inkjets.

If you want color, there's no inexpensive alternative. Is there?

Boots and other online printing services. Even cheaper.

Not when you include the cost of driving to pick it up.

If quantity requires then get a colour laser with an eye on the
cost
of replacing toner cartridges.

Ink-jets are remarkably unreliable.

Mine arent.

I have to say that hasn't been my experience, either. All of the HPs
that I've owned over the years have been remarkably reliable given
the
level of use and abuse that they get.

I've stuck with Canons myself and have only ever had the one failure
just recently, of the main logic card.
Mate of mine has gone thru 3 Canons now, all with some sort of
electronics failure.

I've had 2 printers in my lifetime

what do you guys do to get through so many?

1982, my first printer, a dot matrix, cost five hundred dollars
Canadian.
It was horribly slow, didn't do descenders properly, and was about as
cheap as I could get.

1984, a daisy wheel printer, spent about four hundred dollars on it.
Needed it because the dot matrix was no good for anything but rough
drafts
and program listings. It was like a typewriter with the keyboard
removed
and a serial interface added. It was slow too, fast enough that I
couldn't go and do anything before I had to roll another sheet of paper
in, but slow enough that I'd just wait for that next sheet of paper.

1989 a second dot matrix, only about $300. This one was much faster,
and
could do "near letter quality" that was good enough for me. So it
replaced both of the previous printers, the daisy wheel had failed
anyway
because some plastic gear had worn out.

1994 about. A used Apple Imagewriter dot matrix printer, paid about $20
for it. I think I still have it, it's the sort of thing (like the first
dot matrix) that would jsut keep running and running. Cost a lot new,
you
see that in it's lack of flimsiness. I needed it because I was using a
Mac at the time.

2001, my first inkjet. Paid about $15 at a garage sale, the seller even
warned me that the cartridge needed refilling. So I got a refill kid,
spent about as much as the printer for two fillings. This was an Apple
Stylewriter, still a sturdy printer (and people paid lots for them
originally). I used up the first refill within a month, the novelty of
being able to print graphics fast and easily taking control. But then I
saw that when the ink got wet, it smeared, which meant the second refill
was barely used, and I never used an inkjet since.

2001, that fall. I got a TI I think it was laser printer for $20 at a
school rummage sale. I used it until the toner ran out, more novelty of
laser printing. But, it was an off-brand and old, and since there
seemed
to be some printing problem (I wasn't sure if refilling the toner would
fix that or not), I decided not to spend money on refilling it.

About 2003. An HP 4P laser printer, $15 at a Rotary Club "garage sale".
It had a very short page count, the door over the ram expansion slots
was
missing and the toner cartridge was a generic (as if the original had
been
swapped before the printer was donated to the sale). I used up what was
left of the toner cartridge, and over the next few years was printing
quite a bit, because it was cheap, so I bought two refilled cartridges,
though the second one is still in use a decade or so later. I see no
sign
that this is going to die, especially since that period of peak printing
is in the past.

If the laser printer dies, I'd just poke around until I found another
one.
Those too are being tossed, I assume in many cases because they are now
cheap and so nobody is fussing over the waste. Since I can find one
lying
on the sidewalk, the cost of a refilled cartridge isn't so bad, since
someone else has paid for the printer.

There was a period when I kept bringing home inkjet printers found on
the
sidewalk, the plan had been to put one into use for color, but I just
couldn't be bothered. The cost of the cartridges, the reality that I
don't print enough color to use up the cartridges before they dry out,

I don't print much at all and don't find the Canon BCI3 carts dry out at
all.

the fact that the ink smears, even free the inkjet printers aren't
appealing.

I don't see it smearing as long as you let it dry after printing.

I don't bother to print photos at all and if I did, I'd use a commercial
printer.

Though, one time when I needed something like 24Vdc power supply, I
found
just what I needed when I opened up one of those inkjet printers.

Generally PC power supplies are better for that
sort of thing because they are packaged properly.

Please tell us how to get 24 volts out of PC power supplies..........

Plenty of them have a pair of 12 V rails.

On 15/07/14 21:12, Sjouke Burry wrote:
Please tell us how to get 24 volts out of PC power supplies..........

put a load on the 5V and then pick off the +12 and -12??


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On Tue, 15 Jul 2014 19:43:43 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

====snip====


The first of them that I personally owned, an LA180 was as big
as a washing machine and I could barely put one in the back
of a Golf alone, and I was completely stupid to have done that.

Wow! I thought I was the only one daft enough to buy such a monster
from my local 'Government Surplus' dealer. :-)

I had to rewire the parallel interface (including adding an inverter
or two) to make it 'Centronics Compatable' for connecting to my
Transam Tuscan S100 Bus machine.

It only printed unidirectionally but the bi-directional version
wouldn't have sped it up very much since the carriage return action
was so swift it was more akin to its predecessor, a Teletype Model 33
ASR.

I think it eventually got replaced by an HP Deskjet 960C and I
eventually hauled it out of my basement 'shack' to sneak it onto the
back of an untaxed wagon that had been illegally parked across the
road for the past couple of months ( I thought that if we'd had to put
up with this eyesore which was seemingly being pointedly ignored by
the authorities for the last two months or so, I might as well get
some utility out of it :-)

That was replaced by a much smaller dot matrix printer
that I only stopped using when I got the first inkjet printer
that produced a much better result and cost peanuts.

I gave up on inkjets long before they 'got cheap'. The plain fact is
I simply didn't do enough printing to stop the heads clogging up
between jobs. I'd have done much better using a good old fashioned
impact dot matrix or daisywheel printer and a small box of re-inkable
ribbons (cartridge or open spool). The price of the consumables for
all inkjet printers is hundreds of times greater than that of the
impact based technology which, imho, is a total disgrace.


I stopped using that when PCs no longer supported the interface.

Presumably you're talking about Major OEM branded ready built PCs
like Dell and HP/Compaq et al. The latest MoBos I bought brand new
about four years ago still sported the centronics/LPT header to
connect a printer connector backplate to. I suspect this may no longer
be true today. I guess I'll find out in a year or so's time when I
next upgrade my machines.


I replaced that with a decent USB inkjet and had that
work fine for years. Its just had an electronics card failure
and since I had picked up a spare at a garage sale for just
$5 it wasn't worth even changing a failed cap. It's the only
one that has actually died rather than become obsolete.

The last inkjet I purchased was a Canon Pixma iP4000 about 5 or 6
years ago which I'd specifically chosen for it's inclusion of the
centronics interface (to match a printserver) and the ability to print
onto CD-R /DVD-R printable media.

I only renewed the 5 ink tanks twice using cheap compatable carts
before I realised home printing with inkjet technology had become a
mug's game (and this was just for black ink printing, no colour photo
follies).

I really only used it to print optical disk media labels to make them
look a little more presentable than the freehand permanent marker
labelling I had used. I only needed to print in black ink but, it
turns out that the black ink cart is totally ignored when printing on
optical disks and the photocolour 'black' mix is forced onto the user.

Once I realised there was no way to get around this reliance on the
colour carts to print onto optical media, its days as a printer were
numbered until I finally finished off the black ink printing to paper.
Now it just sits on it's little table in mute testament to the
futility of inkjet printer technology as sold to the gullible consumer
by the self destructive manufacturers. I'm sure I can't be in a
minority in this regard.

We've had a couple of mono laser printers connected to the LAN over
the past 5 or 6 years, courtesy of my son, now replaced by a colour
laser, also purchased by him. This nicely serves our very modest
printing needs.

Any photos that I might deem worthwhile getting printed will be dealt
with by the likes of Asda or Max Spielman (or whoever) where proper
photo printing technology will provide prints at least as colourfast
as the traditional photo printing from film media (the same chemistry
just raster scanned with laser beams instead of directly projecting an
image from a colour negative).

In my opinion, no home inkjet photocolour grade printer can compete
for cost and quality when asked to print photos. Once you've cast that
'advantage' aside, there's no point in wasting money on another inkjet
except, perhaps, on one designed specifically for printing to optical
media using cheap ink carts (preferably able to use a dedicated black
ink when monochrome is all that is needed rather than force you to
consume an expensive set of colour carts to print the job in photo
black). However, optical media seems to be going the way of the Dodo
(afaiac) so maybe not.

I suppose we're still going to have to 'fiddle' our own fixes to the
'consumerism' driven 'planned obsolescence' of toner carts that rely
on a counter to prematurely declare exhaustion (in one case, according
to the recent BBC programme, "The Men Who Made Us Spend", by a 'safety
margin' factor of three!).

I've no doubt the printer manufacturers will continue to erode
durability of laser printers and carts in their never ending quest to
shake down their 'consumer' and milk the suckers[1] for all their
worth.

The way the Printer Manufacturers are carrying on, the dream of a
"Paperless Office" might finally come true a lot sooner than anyone
would have expected! :-)

[1] Specifically, the suckers referred to in PT Barnum's "There's one
born every minute" quotation that seems to have been taken to heart by
globalised industries and manufacturers.
--
J B Good

On Tue, 15 Jul 2014 02:06:27 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:



"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 14 Jul 2014 10:01:21 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:

Yep, that's the style of cartridge, and I think the same as you, two wire
bus plus piezo drive. And yes. Shorted bus was a good one, and certainly
something I wouldn't have suspected right off. Hence why I bothered to
tell
all here ! :-)

Thanks. I learned something new.

Do you still have the bad magenta 02 cartridge? If so, try an
ohmmeter test on the contacts. I'm curious if the cart can be tested.

--
Jeff Liebermann

I do, and I'll see what can be read across the contacts. Since we decided
what the contacts might be, I've had another little think about that, and
have now decided that it's not piezo drive on two of them, because these are
HP cartridges without the heads built in. Straight vanilla ink only. So how
about supply, ground, and two-wire bus ?


That does seem to be the most obvious bus topology (if it's good
enough for USB...).
--
J B Good

On Tue, 15 Jul 2014 12:03:19 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:



"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
wrote
I've never had satisfactory performance from cheapo cartridges,

I do, with the last of the Canon inkjets that doesn't have chipped carts.

I do too. The cheapos that I use have four times the capacity of the
genuines. The print quality and colours are as good also. I doubt that the
ink is quite as 'stable' on photo paper and exposed to sunlight, but for
'regular' paper printing, it's just fine long term. I have printed many
photos using these inks in situations where they are not exposed to sunlight
all the time, and they have been perfectly ok at the time of printing, and
have remained so. I have been using these cartridges for probably three
years now, and this Magenta one is the very first that I have had a problem
with. Even that is a random chance electronic problem, rather than
mechanical or ink related. I reported the symptoms here merely for interest
and to help others who may find themselves in this situation, as of course,
the chip on a genuine HP cartridge could just as easily fail in exactly the
same way ...


Well, I thank you for offering the 'Heads Up' advice. It basically
boils down to removing one ink tank/cartridge at a time and observe
whether this changes the status before concluding that the printer is
seriously broken. Not a particularly onerous fault finding task in the
overall scheme of things I'd have thought.
--
J B Good

On Tue, 15 Jul 2014 13:13:53 +0100, Tim Streater
wrote:

In article , Arfa Daily
wrote:

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
wrote
I've never had satisfactory performance from cheapo cartridges,

I do, with the last of the Canon inkjets that doesn't have chipped carts.

I do too. The cheapos that I use have four times the capacity of the
genuines. The print quality and colours are as good also. I doubt that the
ink is quite as 'stable' on photo paper and exposed to sunlight, but for
'regular' paper printing, it's just fine long term. I have printed many
photos using these inks in situations where they are not exposed to sunlight
all the time, and they have been perfectly ok at the time of printing, and
have remained so.

Interesting. We printed some pix on our Canon iP4000 using Canon carts.
But after some years these have now got a golden-ish sheen on any dark
areas of the pic. And why bother when you can get pix printed on proper
photo paper commercially or even online for tuppence-ha'penny.

Exactly! You've nailed it! I only chose the iP4000 because of its
ability to print onto printable disc media, thinking that ink tank
replacement would be far cheaper than printhead plus integrated ink
tank as used by HP. The fact that I could use it to print the odd page
or two onto A4 sheet was a minor bonus.

If I'd known that it relied entirely on the colour inks to print onto
disks, regardless of whether or not you only wanted to print black
text, I wouldn't have wasted my money.
--
J B Good

Johny B Good wrote
Rod Speed wrote

The first of them that I personally owned, an LA180 was as big
as a washing machine and I could barely put one in the back
of a Golf alone, and I was completely stupid to have done that.

Wow! I thought I was the only one daft enough to buy such
a monster from my local 'Government Surplus' dealer. :-)

I bought mine new, but I was flogging DEC LSI-11s with them and
other hardware, mostly to accountants and operations like that.

The LS120 was much heavier and I was never actually stupid enough
to try putting one of those into the back of the Golf by myself.

I had to rewire the parallel interface (including adding
an inverter or two) to make it 'Centronics Compatable'
for connecting to my Transam Tuscan S100 Bus machine.

I used mine on the DEC LSI-11 that I also had at home, serial.

It only printed unidirectionally but the bi-directional version
wouldn't have sped it up very much since the carriage return
action was so swift it was more akin to its predecessor, a
Teletype Model 33 ASR.

I didn't have one of those at home, just at work.

I think it eventually got replaced by an HP Deskjet 960C

Mine was initially replaced by an LA50
on the DEC Rainbow that I added later.

and I eventually hauled it out of my basement 'shack' to sneak
it onto the back of an untaxed wagon that had been illegally
parked across the road for the past couple of months ( I thought
that if we'd had to put up with this eyesore which was seemingly
being pointedly ignored by the authorities for the last two
months or so, I might as well get some utility out of it :-)

I've still got at least one LA120 or something in the big pile of stuff.

That was replaced by a much smaller dot matrix printer
that I only stopped using when I got the first inkjet printer
that produced a much better result and cost peanuts.

I gave up on inkjets long before they 'got cheap'.
The plain fact is I simply didn't do enough printing
to stop the heads clogging up between jobs.

I likely print even less than you do and don't
find that the Canon ip3000 clogs up at all.

I'd have done much better using a good old fashioned
impact dot matrix or daisywheel printer and a small
box of re-inkable ribbons (cartridge or open spool).

I wouldn't, basically because I did print quite a few CDs and DVDs.

The price of the consumables for all inkjet printers is hundreds
of times greater than that of the impact based technology

Not when you use the cheapest generic carts off ebay.

They in fact cost a lot less than the ribbons for the LA50
used to. It still works but I haven't used it for decades now.

which, imho, is a total disgrace.

That's why I deliberately bought one of the last of the Canons
that doesn't use chipped carts, for the very low price on ebay.

I stopped using that when PCs no longer supported the interface.

Presumably you're talking about Major OEM branded
ready built PCs like Dell and HP/Compaq et al.

No, I have always assembled my own using components.

The latest MoBos I bought brand new about four years ago still sported
the centronics/LPT header to connect a printer connector backplate to.

My latest doesn't. Is only a year or so old.

I suspect this may no longer be true today.

Yeah, it wasn't when I was picking a motherboard,
at least with the other things I wanted.

I guess I'll find out in a year or so's time
when I next upgrade my machines.

I replaced that with a decent USB inkjet and had that
work fine for years. Its just had an electronics card failure
and since I had picked up a spare at a garage sale for just
$5 it wasn't worth even changing a failed cap. It's the only
one that has actually died rather than become obsolete.

The last inkjet I purchased was a Canon Pixma iP4000 about
5 or 6 years ago which I'd specifically chosen for it's inclusion
of the centronics interface (to match a printserver) and the
ability to print onto CD-R /DVD-R printable media.

Yeah, that's the last is the main reason I changed from
the previous BJC-4310SP which likely still works fine.

I only renewed the 5 ink tanks twice using cheap
compatable carts before I realised home printing
with inkjet technology had become a mug's game

I don't believe that, particularly for printing on CDs and DVDs.

(and this was just for black ink printing, no colour photo follies).

I do prefer to print colored stuff colored. I don't print photos.

I really only used it to print optical disk media labels
to make them look a little more presentable than the
freehand permanent marker labelling I had used.

Yeah, I did it for that reason too. My writing is so bad
that people would whinge about the product key.

I only needed to print in black ink but, it turns out that
the black ink cart is totally ignored when printing on optical
disks and the photocolour 'black' mix is forced onto the user.

I don't get that with the ip3000. I normally print in blue tho for no
particular reason, just looks better than black on CDs and DVDs.

Once I realised there was no way to get around this reliance on the
colour carts to print onto optical media, its days as a printer were
numbered until I finally finished off the black ink printing to paper.
Now it just sits on it's little table in mute testament to the futility
of inkjet printer technology as sold to the gullible consumer by
the self destructive manufacturers. I'm sure I can't be in a
minority in this regard.

I still print a bit of stuff, but mostly for others who don't have a
printer.

We've had a couple of mono laser printers connected to
the LAN over the past 5 or 6 years, courtesy of my son,
now replaced by a colour laser, also purchased by him.
This nicely serves our very modest printing needs.

I don't print enough to warrant feeding one of those
even if I got one for peanuts in a garage/yard sale
and they don't print to CDs and DVDs. I print much
more of those than I ever print on paper for myself.

Any photos that I might deem worthwhile getting printed will be dealt
with by the likes of Asda or Max Spielman (or whoever) where proper
photo printing technology will provide prints at least as colourfast
as the traditional photo printing from film media (the same chemistry
just raster scanned with laser beams instead of directly projecting an
image from a colour negative).

True. I just don't print photos at all except when I chose to front the
magistrate after having got booked doing 160KM, to show him that
there was no danger doing that speed there. Didn't end up actually
needing to show him the photos, he let me off after I lied to him.

In my opinion, no home inkjet photocolour grade printer
can compete for cost and quality when asked to print photos.

True.

Once you've cast that 'advantage' aside, there's no point in wasting
money on another inkjet except, perhaps, on one designed specifically
for printing to optical media using cheap ink carts

Yeah, that's the reason I got that printer.

(preferably able to use a dedicated black ink when monochrome
is all that is needed rather than force you to consume an expensive
set of colour carts to print the job in photo black).

I just use one of the colors and print in that.

However, optical media seems to be going
the way of the Dodo (afaiac) so maybe not.

Yeah, I don't use it much anymore. Can be convenient
to post them, we can post them for the normal letter
stamp. You can do that with SD cards too, but with
the blanks you don't care if they come back or not
and they work better for the techklutzes that usually
can manage to put a DVD into something they have
to play the TV program that they missed or that they
have got me to download for them.

I suppose we're still going to have to 'fiddle' our own fixes to
the 'consumerism' driven 'planned obsolescence' of toner carts
that rely on a counter to prematurely declare exhaustion (in
one case, according to the recent BBC programme, "The Men
Who Made Us Spend", by a 'safety margin' factor of three!).

I just ensure that I don't buy those by researching them
properly before buying them, but that has changed a
bit now with that stuff showing up at garage sales
and facebook buy sell swap groups for peanuts.

I've no doubt the printer manufacturers will continue
to erode durability of laser printers and carts in their
never ending quest to shake down their 'consumer'
and milk the suckers[1] for all their worth.

Yeah, but it will be interesting to watch how
many bother to print much into the future.

I print almost nothing now, just the CDs and DVDs mostly.

The last thing I printed was a blowup of my driver's license
that I needed when claiming some unclaimed money of mine.
Their system did have a decent online form to fill in, but
printed that and wanted a copy of that sort of proof of
identity stuff posted to them. You couldn't upload that.

I've just done something similar for someone I know
who had to submit some documentation for a permanent
resident visa who doesn't have a printer or net service either.

The way the Printer Manufacturers are carrying on, the
dream of a "Paperless Office" might finally come true
a lot sooner than anyone would have expected! :-)

Yeah, it will be interesting to watch.

[1] Specifically, the suckers referred to in PT Barnum's "There's
one born every minute" quotation that seems to have been
taken to heart by globalised industries and manufacturers.

On Tue, 15 Jul 2014 11:53:22 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:

I'm assuming that the 'chip' on each cartridge is a simple dedicated
microcontroller, so some level of Vcc would be required to run that, and it
would make sense to design the chip to run off a rail that would provide
suitable levels for the bus signals as well

Yep. That's what I just found. HP C7250 AIO printer.

There are 4 pins on each cart. I'll arbitrarily number them 1-4 from
top to bottom.
1 +3.3v DC
2 Data cartridge -- printer
3 Data cartridge -- printer
4 Ground
I verified that the +3.3v DC and ground were there full time when the
printer was powered on. The ground pin shows DC continuity to the
shield on a nearby USB jack, which was convenient for grounding the
scope probe. I saw short bursts of data during power up and during
power down. After the data burst on pin 3 (data into the cart), where
was a very short burst on pin 2 from the cartridge back to the
printer. I couldn't capture the bursts because my ancient Tek 422
scope doesn't have storage. That's certainly NOT I2C.

I didn't want to try printing with all the scope probes and
connections attached.

Offhand, the system looks incredibly crude. No clock, no time sync,
no rolling code, no real security. Probably just some bits to
identify the type and color of the cart, and a challenge/response
system to identify that it's a genuine HP car. Oh yes, the date of
manufacture so that HP can declare the carts useless because the ink
has "expired". It wouldn't take much to clone the chips.

However, I have a better idea. It wouldn't be too difficult to rip
the chips off the carts, run 4 wires to a PIC controller, and give the
printer whatever response it needs to keep it happy.

And I, in turn, leave this to Jeff L who has these things piled high
(literally !) at his place ... :-)

Worse than that. One of my customers called about 2 weeks ago with a
problem. He's recovering from surgery and needs two bedrooms full of
eJunk cleared out so the daughter in law and the grand brats can move
in and help him out while he recovers. I now have a museum of antique
eJunk, most of which is in immaculate condition. Another customer
moved offices, and used my office doorstep as their recycling and
eWaste depository. I sacrificed one workbench and one desk, turning
both into vertical storage, almost to the ceiling. Hopefully, the
fire marshall will not come visiting.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Tue, 15 Jul 2014, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 15/07/14 21:12, Sjouke Burry wrote:
Please tell us how to get 24 volts out of PC power supplies..........

put a load on the 5V and then pick off the +12 and -12??

But the printer power supply was standalone, not in a box but the board
mounted on a piece of metal bent at 90 degrees. I though of looking in the
inkjet because I'd noticed that printers often had higher voltages inside.
It was very easy to extract the switching supply.

This is now dated material since there many inkjet printers that have
external supplies, so you can grab one of suitable voltage and use it.
Indeed, with the switch to switching supplies, AC adapters become much
more useful in the past. You get a compact power supply with more current
capacity than most of the old ac adapters, and you can find a wide range
of voltages.

The reality is that the mundane is often the most useful things one can
find in the garbag. That iPod is a neat thing, but I didn't really need
it. That usb to microUSB cable I needed, so it outright saved me some
money. I tend to save AC adapters because they can be used for other
things, but also because you never know when you might bring home some
interesting piece of electronics that needs such and such a voltage.

Micahel

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 15 Jul 2014 11:53:22 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:

I'm assuming that the 'chip' on each cartridge is a simple dedicated
microcontroller, so some level of Vcc would be required to run that, and
it
would make sense to design the chip to run off a rail that would provide
suitable levels for the bus signals as well

Yep. That's what I just found. HP C7250 AIO printer.

There are 4 pins on each cart. I'll arbitrarily number them 1-4 from
top to bottom.
1 +3.3v DC
2 Data cartridge -- printer
3 Data cartridge -- printer
4 Ground

OK. Did a quick measure on the bad cartridge, and it goes 1.2 ohms 3 to 4,
so that ties in nicely with what you found with your checks, and the
symptoms that it caused my printer :-)

Arfa

I do too. The cheapos that I use have four times the capacity of the
genuines. The print quality and colours are as good also. I doubt that
the ink is quite as 'stable' on photo paper and exposed to sunlight, but
for 'regular' paper printing, it's just fine long term. I have printed
many photos using these inks in situations where they are not exposed to
sunlight all the time, and they have been perfectly ok at the time of
printing, and have remained so.

Interesting. We printed some pix on our Canon iP4000 using Canon carts.
But after some years these have now got a golden-ish sheen on any dark
areas of the pic. And why bother when you can get pix printed on proper
photo paper commercially or even online for tuppence-ha'penny.



Well, if the printer's to hand, you have photopaper coming out of your ears
from when you used to buy the genuine HP inks in a 'pack', and you are
loaded up with cheapo ink that works ok, why not ?

Arfa

"Johny B Good" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 15 Jul 2014 13:13:53 +0100, Tim Streater
wrote:

In article , Arfa Daily
wrote:

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
wrote
I've never had satisfactory performance from cheapo cartridges,

I do, with the last of the Canon inkjets that doesn't have chipped
carts.

I do too. The cheapos that I use have four times the capacity of the
genuines. The print quality and colours are as good also. I doubt that
the
ink is quite as 'stable' on photo paper and exposed to sunlight, but for
'regular' paper printing, it's just fine long term. I have printed many
photos using these inks in situations where they are not exposed to
sunlight
all the time, and they have been perfectly ok at the time of printing,
and
have remained so.

Interesting. We printed some pix on our Canon iP4000 using Canon carts.
But after some years these have now got a golden-ish sheen on any dark
areas of the pic. And why bother when you can get pix printed on proper
photo paper commercially or even online for tuppence-ha'penny.

Exactly! You've nailed it! I only chose the iP4000 because of its
ability to print onto printable disc media, thinking that ink tank
replacement would be far cheaper than printhead plus integrated ink
tank as used by HP.

But not by all HPs. My one has the heads as part of the machine, not the
cartridge, so although the cartridges are still expensive compared to
clones, they are a lot cheaper than the ones with built in head.

Arfa


--
J B Good

"Johny B Good" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 15 Jul 2014 12:03:19 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:



"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
wrote
I've never had satisfactory performance from cheapo cartridges,

I do, with the last of the Canon inkjets that doesn't have chipped
carts.

I do too. The cheapos that I use have four times the capacity of the
genuines. The print quality and colours are as good also. I doubt that the
ink is quite as 'stable' on photo paper and exposed to sunlight, but for
'regular' paper printing, it's just fine long term. I have printed many
photos using these inks in situations where they are not exposed to
sunlight
all the time, and they have been perfectly ok at the time of printing, and
have remained so. I have been using these cartridges for probably three
years now, and this Magenta one is the very first that I have had a
problem
with. Even that is a random chance electronic problem, rather than
mechanical or ink related. I reported the symptoms here merely for
interest
and to help others who may find themselves in this situation, as of
course,
the chip on a genuine HP cartridge could just as easily fail in exactly
the
same way ...


Well, I thank you for offering the 'Heads Up' advice. It basically
boils down to removing one ink tank/cartridge at a time and observe
whether this changes the status before concluding that the printer is
seriously broken. Not a particularly onerous fault finding task in the
overall scheme of things I'd have thought.
--
J B Good


How clever you must be Johnny ... :-)

Arfa

On 16/07/2014 01:39, Johny B Good wrote:
On Tue, 15 Jul 2014 19:43:43 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

====snip====


The first of them that I personally owned, an LA180 was as big
as a washing machine and I could barely put one in the back
of a Golf alone, and I was completely stupid to have done that.

Wow! I thought I was the only one daft enough to buy such a monster
from my local 'Government Surplus' dealer. :-)

I had to rewire the parallel interface (including adding an inverter
or two) to make it 'Centronics Compatable' for connecting to my
Transam Tuscan S100 Bus machine.

It only printed unidirectionally but the bi-directional version
wouldn't have sped it up very much since the carriage return action
was so swift it was more akin to its predecessor, a Teletype Model 33
ASR.

I think it eventually got replaced by an HP Deskjet 960C and I
eventually hauled it out of my basement 'shack' to sneak it onto the
back of an untaxed wagon that had been illegally parked across the
road for the past couple of months ( I thought that if we'd had to put
up with this eyesore which was seemingly being pointedly ignored by
the authorities for the last two months or so, I might as well get
some utility out of it :-)

That was replaced by a much smaller dot matrix printer
that I only stopped using when I got the first inkjet printer
that produced a much better result and cost peanuts.

I gave up on inkjets long before they 'got cheap'. The plain fact is
I simply didn't do enough printing to stop the heads clogging up
between jobs. I'd have done much better using a good old fashioned
impact dot matrix or daisywheel printer and a small box of re-inkable
ribbons (cartridge or open spool). The price of the consumables for
all inkjet printers is hundreds of times greater than that of the
impact based technology which, imho, is a total disgrace.

You don't need to print anything to stop them blocking up.
If you leave it on the printer will clean itself as needed.
My Brother aio has been sitting there happy for four years now.
It doesn't use much power as all it is doing is keeping the network
alive so it can wake up and print when required.

The ink level goes down slowly but you are talking about years if you
don't print anything. And as it uses optical level sensors you can
refill or use £1.99 carts in it.

On 14/07/2014 02:22, Arfa Daily wrote:
For a long time, my primary printer has been an HP Photosmart series
all-in-one. It's a 6 ink job, which makes it expensive to replace inks
if you use the genuine HP article. So, for several years, I have been
using cheapo eBay inks. They come from China originally, and the most
recent ones I have been using, have translucent cases so you can even
see how much ink is actually in them. They are high capacity cartridges,
and the chip on them says so correctly. I have never had a problem with
the printer failing to recognise them as a high capacity cartridge of
the correct colour, and the usage indicator seems to remain accurate.

So, a couple of weeks ago, I come down in the morning, and it's sitting
there saying "copy abandoned", and the exclamation mark LED is flashing.
Sure enough, one of the missus's documents is in the top that she's
obviously been trying to copy before going to work. So I try the cancel
button - nothing. Nor the on / off button. No buttons work, so I pop the
power, just expecting to get the usual lashing for not turning it off
properly. But no. As soon as it gets going, it tells me that "The
following ink cartridges appear to be missing... " That would be all
six of them, then ...

Nothing would recover it from this. I had a trawl around on the net, and
there was a number of mentions of a couple of caps that bulge on the
main board, so I dived in to check, and yes ! there was one of them. I
checked its ESR for sport, and it was out the window. I stuck a new one
in, expecting all to be well, but it was just the same :-(

A friend lent me a printer in the meantime, while I had a think about
this one. Another friend is a pro photographer, and he has one of these
HPs also, and I knew that he only used genuine inks, so I rang him and
asked if he happened to have any empties laying about. He did, as he
takes them back to Staples, who give you half off in exchange. He came
over today with a bag of them, so I started by taking all of my
cartridges out. As expected, it told me that all of the cartridges were
missing, so I put in an empty colour one and restarted it. This time, it
told me that only five were missing, and the one that I had just put in
was nearly empty and should be replaced soon.

One by one, I added 'empty' genuine cartridges, and each time, it read
the cartridge ok. I eventually got to a full house, and all was well. So
one by one, I put my cheapo cartridges back in, and all remained ok,
until the very last one, dark magenta, when back came the message that
all six cartridges were missing. I went and got another from my stock
and put it in, and all was still ok.

I have actually seen the same symptoms with a brand new Canon printer
except that it was the genuine black cartridge that took the entire lot
down. I established this by trial and error after the cartridge OK leds
all went out unexpectedly when I put the black one in. I got a new
genuine black cartridge to make sure I didn't invalidate the warrantee
but it was a faulty supplied with the printer OEM cartridge.

So I'm guessing that the comms to these cartridges are just a simple 2
wire bus, and each colour just has its own address to allow the
processor to read them individually. I'm also guessing that the faulty
dark magenta cartridge, must have a short on one of the bus lines so
that when the processor issues the addresses in sequence to read each
cartridge at boot up, none of them are able to reply so the machine
assumes that they are not present.

How easy it would have been for the printer to have just got chucked in
the bin, for what was ultimately a simple problem ...

Not just HP where this sort of issue can arise. The first trick is to
take all the cartridges out and then insert them individually.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Dennis@home wrote
Johny B Good wrote
Rod Speed wrote

The first of them that I personally owned, an LA180 was as big
as a washing machine and I could barely put one in the back
of a Golf alone, and I was completely stupid to have done that.

Wow! I thought I was the only one daft enough to buy such a monster from
my local 'Government Surplus' dealer. :-)

I had to rewire the parallel interface (including adding an inverter or
two) to make it 'Centronics Compatable' for connecting to my Transam
Tuscan S100 Bus machine.

It only printed unidirectionally but the bi-directional version
wouldn't have sped it up very much since the carriage return action was
so swift it was more akin to its predecessor, a Teletype Model 33 ASR.

I think it eventually got replaced by an HP Deskjet 960C and I
eventually hauled it out of my basement 'shack' to sneak it onto the
back of an untaxed wagon that had been illegally parked across the
road for the past couple of months ( I thought that if we'd had to put
up with this eyesore which was seemingly being pointedly ignored by
the authorities for the last two months or so, I might as well get
some utility out of it :-)

That was replaced by a much smaller dot matrix printer
that I only stopped using when I got the first inkjet printer
that produced a much better result and cost peanuts.

I gave up on inkjets long before they 'got cheap'. The plain fact is
I simply didn't do enough printing to stop the heads clogging up
between jobs. I'd have done much better using a good old fashioned
impact dot matrix or daisywheel printer and a small box of re-inkable
ribbons (cartridge or open spool). The price of the consumables for
all inkjet printers is hundreds of times greater than that of the
impact based technology which, imho, is a total disgrace.

You don't need to print anything to stop them blocking up.

You do with some brands of printer.

If you leave it on the printer will clean itself as needed.

None of my Canons have ever done that.

My Brother aio has been sitting there happy for four years now.
It doesn't use much power as all it is doing is keeping the network alive
so it can wake up and print when required.

The ink level goes down slowly but you are talking about years if you
don't print anything. And as it uses optical level sensors you can refill
or use £1.99 carts in it.

On 15/07/2014 11:16 AM, Arfa Daily wrote:



**I hat ink jet printers. Although I've been using a laser printer
since 1988, there have been times when I purchased an ink jet (usually
because I wanted to print photos or something similar). I've always
been sorry. Anyway, a few years back, I decided to change my thermal
fax machine for an HP inkjet. I quickly tired of paying nonsensically
high prices for black cartridges, I purchased one of those ink jet
refiller kits. I figured I'd refill the cartridge in the lounge room
one evening (100% wool, Berber carpet). At the last moment, I decided
that SWMBO might kill me if I spilt the ink, so I did the job in the
workshop. Part of the job called for pressurising the cartridge after
re-filling. I dtifully pumped air into the cartridge. No print. I
pumped a little more air in. No pump. I pumped a little more air in
and BANG. Ink went everywhere. It's been ten years and I am still
finding ink in places I never expected.

I hate ink jet printers.



--
Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au

That's a sad story Trevor. To be honest, I can buy Chinese cartridges
for this HP so cheap that it's not worth arsing about doing re-fills.

**Sad? That's not how I see it. Sad would have been if I performed the
task in the house. SWMBO would have hit the roof.


While you're on, don't suppose you've got a schematic for a Mackie
SRM1801 sub have you ? Have combed the net, but nothing lodged with any
of the usual suspects. It has a permanent overload LED, although it
seems to be an indicational problem as otherwise, it works just fine.

Arfa

**Sorry mate. I can't find a schematic for that one.

--
Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au

On Wed, 16 Jul 2014 13:21:46 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:

OK. Did a quick measure on the bad cartridge, and it goes 1.2 ohms 3 to 4,
so that ties in nicely with what you found with your checks, and the
symptoms that it caused my printer :-)
Arfa

Bingo. I measured near infinity on all the pin connections on a known
good cartridges. I'm not a big fan of COB (chip on board)
construction, but I don't think that was the problem. COB failures
usually cause opens, not shorts. So, my guess(tm) is either crappy
constuction (adjacent wire bonds shorted), or static damage.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

In article ,
says...

[snip]

Bingo. I measured near infinity on all the pin connections on a known
good cartridges. I'm not a big fan of COB (chip on board)
construction, but I don't think that was the problem. COB failures
usually cause opens, not shorts. So, my guess(tm) is either crappy
constuction (adjacent wire bonds shorted), or static damage.

Tin whiskers from cheap chinese ROHS solder...

On Thu, 17 Jul 2014 08:02:17 -0600, Randy Day
wrote:

In article ,
says...

[snip]

Bingo. I measured near infinity on all the pin connections on a known
good cartridges. I'm not a big fan of COB (chip on board)
construction, but I don't think that was the problem. COB failures
usually cause opens, not shorts. So, my guess(tm) is either crappy
constuction (adjacent wire bonds shorted), or static damage.

Tin whiskers from cheap chinese ROHS solder...

What solder? The chip is glued to a gold plated PCB (no tin) without
any other components. See lousy photo at:
http://inkjet411.com/?page_id=35
In my experience with tin whiskers (in GE MSTR radio cavities and tin
plated connectors), the whiskers are "blown" by even the smallest
voltage across them. In this case, all 4 pins have a fairly large
(3.3v) potential between adjacent pins at various times, which is more
than sufficient to blow any tin whisker. Maybe a broken piece of wire
left around the chip during wire bonding, could easily produce a
short.

I wonder how they do these? Emulation?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/160698015099
http://cmyshow.en.ec21.com/Continuous_Bulk_Ink_Supply_System--1638985_1795969.html

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , Arfa Daily
wrote:

"Johny B Good" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 15 Jul 2014 13:13:53 +0100, Tim Streater
wrote:

In article , Arfa Daily
wrote:

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
wrote
I've never had satisfactory performance from cheapo cartridges,

I do, with the last of the Canon inkjets that doesn't have chipped
carts.

I do too. The cheapos that I use have four times the capacity of the
genuines. The print quality and colours are as good also. I doubt
that the
ink is quite as 'stable' on photo paper and exposed to sunlight, but
for
'regular' paper printing, it's just fine long term. I have printed
many
photos using these inks in situations where they are not exposed to
sunlight
all the time, and they have been perfectly ok at the time of
printing, and
have remained so.

Interesting. We printed some pix on our Canon iP4000 using Canon carts.
But after some years these have now got a golden-ish sheen on any dark
areas of the pic. And why bother when you can get pix printed on proper
photo paper commercially or even online for tuppence-ha'penny.

Exactly! You've nailed it! I only chose the iP4000 because of its
ability to print onto printable disc media, thinking that ink tank
replacement would be far cheaper than printhead plus integrated ink
tank as used by HP.

But not by all HPs. My one has the heads as part of the machine, not the
cartridge, so although the cartridges are still expensive compared to
clones, they are a lot cheaper than the ones with built in head.

Not sure what this has to do with anything.

Then read what exactly I was replying to ...

Arfa


All the Canon carts I've ever bought (for 3 printers, now) have heads as
part of the machine.

--
Anyone who slaps a 'this page is best viewed with Browser X' label on
a Web page appears to be yearning for the bad old days, before the Web,
when you had very little chance of reading a document written on another
computer, another word processor, or another network. -- Tim Berners-Lee

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , Arfa Daily
wrote:

I do too. The cheapos that I use have four times the capacity of the
genuines. The print quality and colours are as good also. I doubt that
the ink is quite as 'stable' on photo paper and exposed to sunlight,
but for 'regular' paper printing, it's just fine long term. I have
printed many photos using these inks in situations where they are not
exposed to sunlight all the time, and they have been perfectly ok at
the time of printing, and have remained so.

Interesting. We printed some pix on our Canon iP4000 using Canon carts.
But after some years these have now got a golden-ish sheen on any dark
areas of the pic. And why bother when you can get pix printed on proper
photo paper commercially or even online for tuppence-ha'penny.

Well, if the printer's to hand, you have photopaper coming out of your
ears from when you used to buy the genuine HP inks in a 'pack', and you
are loaded up with cheapo ink that works ok, why not ?

You're assuming that the printed photos have long term stability, which
manifestly they don't.

So says one person about his genuine Canon cartridges, and after the photos
are "some years" old. If you read what I actually said, it was that I have
printed many photos which have remained perfectly ok in the long term so
far. The only rider was that they had not been exposed to direct sunlight
for long periods of time. I have several pictures of my grandchildren that I
have printed, hanging on the wall in my workshop, where they are exposed to
a mixture of daylight and bright fluorescent light every day, and they are
as good as the day that I printed them, and as good as any prints that I
have ever had from a shop, and the (realistic) cost to me was nothing ...

Arfa

--
"Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed byproduct of
those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do." -- Bigby
Wolf

While you're on, don't suppose you've got a schematic for a Mackie
SRM1801 sub have you ? Have combed the net, but nothing lodged with any
of the usual suspects. It has a permanent overload LED, although it
seems to be an indicational problem as otherwise, it works just fine.

Arfa

**Sorry mate. I can't find a schematic for that one.

--
Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au

No, I couldn't either. Mackie nor Loud Technologies will not help, even
though it's an old unit now. Today, I decided to give it another go, as one
way or another, it needed to go back to its owner Friday. Strangely, it now
works correctly, and has done all day. I replaced the comparator I.C. that
drives the LED a few days ago, but as expected, it didn't cure the problem.
About the only other thing that I did was to give the board a good scrub
down with alcohol, as a lot of the joints had that sort of 'grey, dusty'
look to them when an item has been stored somewhere a bit damp. At the time,
that didn't have any effect on the fault either, but now I'm wondering if it
has all dried out, and some moisture under a surface mount component has
gone, and cleared up a leakage path across the print. I'll try it again in
the morning, and if it's still ok, I'll stick the amp back in its cab, and
write out the invoice ... :-)

Arfa

On Wed, 16 Jul 2014 13:30:00 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:



"Johny B Good" wrote in message

====snip====


Well, I thank you for offering the 'Heads Up' advice. It basically
boils down to removing one ink tank/cartridge at a time and observe
whether this changes the status before concluding that the printer is
seriously broken. Not a particularly onerous fault finding task in the
overall scheme of things I'd have thought.
--
J B Good


How clever you must be Johnny ... :-)


Just common sense really. I simply wanted to point out to those who
thought you'd have been better off scrapping the printer and trotting
down to shop for a nice new one like a "Good Consumer", that your
heads up allows anyone that faces similar fault symptoms can swiftly
ascertain, without too much effort or 'wasted time', whether it was a
printer or a cartridge fault before giving up and shelling out for yet
another printer.

Considering this news group is all about DIY, I was rather surprised
at some of the negative responses your post received.
--
J B Good

On 16/07/2014 14:36, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Arfa Daily
wrote:

I do too. The cheapos that I use have four times the capacity of
the genuines. The print quality and colours are as good also. I
doubt that the ink is quite as 'stable' on photo paper and exposed
to sunlight, but for 'regular' paper printing, it's just fine long
term. I have printed many photos using these inks in situations
where they are not exposed to sunlight all the time, and they have
been perfectly ok at the time of printing, and have remained so.

Interesting. We printed some pix on our Canon iP4000 using Canon carts.
But after some years these have now got a golden-ish sheen on any dark
areas of the pic. And why bother when you can get pix printed on proper
photo paper commercially or even online for tuppence-ha'penny.

Isn't that a BCI-6 cartridge machine? If so I am surprised that they
have lasted that long. I have a print of a wedding that was on the
window ledge from when my i9000 (now deceased) was new. The magenta ink
has almost completely bleached away after about a decade. Prints in
normal room locations behind glass survive perfectly well.

I use mine for printing posters for village events and laminated they
show visible fading in outdoors full sun after two or three weeks even
on original Canon BCI-6 - clones were slightly worse but not by much. My
new A3 printer is a Canon Pixma iX6550 on OEM CLI525/6 cartridges. I
haven't had it long enough yet to know how posters survive in full sun.

Well, if the printer's to hand, you have photopaper coming out of your
ears from when you used to buy the genuine HP inks in a 'pack', and
you are loaded up with cheapo ink that works ok, why not ?

You're assuming that the printed photos have long term stability, which
manifestly they don't.

Anything I want for proper display I have printed professionally on
digital photoprinting Fuji crystal archive kit. They really do last. Not
quite as photo stable as the old Cibachrome but almost as good.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Martin Brown wrote
Tim Streater wrote
Arfa Daily wrote

I do too. The cheapos that I use have four times the capacity of the
genuines. The print quality and colours are as good also. I doubt that
the ink is quite as 'stable' on photo paper and exposed to sunlight,
but for 'regular' paper printing, it's just fine long term. I have
printed many photos using these inks in situations
where they are not exposed to sunlight all the time, and they have
been perfectly ok at the time of printing, and have remained so.

Interesting. We printed some pix on our Canon iP4000 using Canon carts.
But after some years these have now got a golden-ish sheen on any dark
areas of the pic. And why bother when you can get pix printed on proper
photo paper commercially or even online for tuppence-ha'penny.

Isn't that a BCI-6 cartridge machine?

Nope, BCI-3

If so I am surprised that they have lasted that long. I have a print of a
wedding that was on the window ledge from when my i9000 (now deceased) was
new. The magenta ink has almost completely bleached away after about a
decade. Prints in normal room
locations behind glass survive perfectly well.

I use mine for printing posters for village events and laminated they show
visible fading in outdoors full sun after two or three weeks even on
original Canon BCI-6 - clones were slightly worse but not by much. My new
A3 printer is a Canon Pixma iX6550 on OEM CLI525/6 cartridges. I haven't
had it long enough yet to know how posters survive in full sun.

Well, if the printer's to hand, you have photopaper coming out of your
ears from when you used to buy the genuine HP inks in a 'pack', and
you are loaded up with cheapo ink that works ok, why not ?

You're assuming that the printed photos have long term stability, which
manifestly they don't.

Anything I want for proper display I have printed professionally on
digital photoprinting Fuji crystal archive kit. They really do last. Not
quite as photo stable as the old Cibachrome but almost as good.

On Fri, 18 Jul 2014 02:45:37 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:




While you're on, don't suppose you've got a schematic for a Mackie
SRM1801 sub have you ? Have combed the net, but nothing lodged with any
of the usual suspects. It has a permanent overload LED, although it
seems to be an indicational problem as otherwise, it works just fine.

Arfa

**Sorry mate. I can't find a schematic for that one.

--
Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au

No, I couldn't either. Mackie nor Loud Technologies will not help, even
though it's an old unit now. Today, I decided to give it another go, as one
way or another, it needed to go back to its owner Friday. Strangely, it now
works correctly, and has done all day. I replaced the comparator I.C. that
drives the LED a few days ago, but as expected, it didn't cure the problem.
About the only other thing that I did was to give the board a good scrub
down with alcohol, as a lot of the joints had that sort of 'grey, dusty'
look to them when an item has been stored somewhere a bit damp. At the time,
that didn't have any effect on the fault either, but now I'm wondering if it
has all dried out, and some moisture under a surface mount component has
gone, and cleared up a leakage path across the print. I'll try it again in
the morning, and if it's still ok, I'll stick the amp back in its cab, and
write out the invoice ... :-)


You need to use a hot air drier after giving a PCB a 'Washdown" with
IPA. It's not sufficient to rely on the stuff evaporating out of the
PCB board 'under its own steam' and making it 'look' like it has dried
up as I discovered when cleaning the carbon smoke damage from my
homebrewed portable sound mixing box which had caused the op-amp
perfect rectifier driven VU meters to show a -10dB reading after I
replaced the burnt out safety resistors in the phantom power feed cct
to the stage box (the result of trusting a coon DJ's shoddy equipment
not to have mains voltage on its supposedly earthed connections).

When I powered the mixer up after the IPA and toothbrush cleaning
exercise, the meters shot over to the end stops. I figured that maybe
I needed to dry it out more thoroughly with a hair drier. I was right!
Once properly dried out, the meters stopped showing any spurious
readings and all was well again.
--
J B Good

"Johny B Good" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 18 Jul 2014 02:45:37 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:




While you're on, don't suppose you've got a schematic for a Mackie
SRM1801 sub have you ? Have combed the net, but nothing lodged with any
of the usual suspects. It has a permanent overload LED, although it
seems to be an indicational problem as otherwise, it works just fine.

Arfa

**Sorry mate. I can't find a schematic for that one.

--
Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au

No, I couldn't either. Mackie nor Loud Technologies will not help, even
though it's an old unit now. Today, I decided to give it another go, as
one
way or another, it needed to go back to its owner Friday. Strangely, it
now
works correctly, and has done all day. I replaced the comparator I.C. that
drives the LED a few days ago, but as expected, it didn't cure the
problem.
About the only other thing that I did was to give the board a good scrub
down with alcohol, as a lot of the joints had that sort of 'grey, dusty'
look to them when an item has been stored somewhere a bit damp. At the
time,
that didn't have any effect on the fault either, but now I'm wondering if
it
has all dried out, and some moisture under a surface mount component has
gone, and cleared up a leakage path across the print. I'll try it again in
the morning, and if it's still ok, I'll stick the amp back in its cab, and
write out the invoice ... :-)


You need to use a hot air drier after giving a PCB a 'Washdown" with
IPA. It's not sufficient to rely on the stuff evaporating out of the
PCB board 'under its own steam' and making it 'look' like it has dried
up as I discovered when cleaning the carbon smoke damage from my
homebrewed portable sound mixing box which had caused the op-amp
perfect rectifier driven VU meters to show a -10dB reading after I
replaced the burnt out safety resistors in the phantom power feed cct
to the stage box (the result of trusting a coon DJ's shoddy equipment
not to have mains voltage on its supposedly earthed connections).

When I powered the mixer up after the IPA and toothbrush cleaning
exercise, the meters shot over to the end stops. I figured that maybe
I needed to dry it out more thoroughly with a hair drier. I was right!
Once properly dried out, the meters stopped showing any spurious
readings and all was well again.
--
J B Good

Yes, agreed. However, it has only been on very rare occasions that I've ever
suffered such problems after a cleandown, and I guess doing this stuff day
in day out, you get complacent. In theory, the only thing that should make
IPA conductive, is water content, and the stuff I use is 99.7% electronics
grade, and kept in a sealed tin, so it shouldn't be conductive at all - wet
or dry. If the symptoms had changed after the cleandown, I might have
suspected that a drying out was required, but it was identical before and
after. Still, it's all working now and has gone back to its owner. One of
the little mysteries that this trade flings at us from time to time, I guess
.... :-)

Arfa