Found the 2 below quotes by mistake when googling, relevant parts asterisked. How on earth does connecting a 240 V load make the missing neutral problem go away for the 120 V appliances?

I can answer this with experience. A long long time ago, (about 1987) we
experience some weird happenings with our lights and whole house fan. The
whole house fan is what tipped us off to the problem initially. It all of a
sudden just slowed down. Some lights were bright, some were dim. The TV
would not come on. After poking around a bit, i got out the (analog) meter
and found some outlets had about 80 volts and others had about 144. ******Then,
some how, i had the brilliant idea of turning on the oven. When i turned
the oven on, the fan went back to normal, the lights normal. The 240v load
apparently balanced the system.****** I was at somewhat of a loss at that point.
I was not near as experience in electrical things at that time. I called an
electrician friend of mine, he came down, poked around in the box some and
decided to loosen the ground on the buss. "OH! GUESS WHAT? Fire on the
ground" he said. I'm like "what's that mean"?. He said "well even though
i've never seen this before, it sure looks like an open neutral. So i get
on the horn with the power company. FYI, it was Kansas City Power and
Light. They come out, and basically look at what i'm experiencing and the
first thing the guy does is pull the meter. Then he measures the voltages
on the incoming legs. All is equal. Then he tells me the problem must be
on the inside. Puts the meter back in and the imbalance returns. "yep , he
says, problem is on your side". So at this point, i'm at wits end, not
knowing what to do, so I calls the fire dept and they say 'do you have a
fire'? I says no, but I will, if someone does not fix this power imbalance.
So that prompts a little higher level of action from KCPL, and they come out
again. The service guy makes all his checks and then talks on the radio for
a while. His supervisor says "you know that sounds like an open neutral".
The guy comes back and says they suspect an open neutral. At that point, I
explode. I said "NO **** SHERLOCK" I told you guys that 3 hours ago. They
ran a bare wire from my meter can to the service box on the street and lo
and behold, all becomes normal again. (did i mention i have underground
service?) They came out the next day and started digging. About a foot
from my water meter, at a depth of about 16" the neutral wire was corroded
clean in half. Apparently it had been nicked by the backhoe putting in the
water line 10 year prior. Well anyway, they fixed the wire, and all was
good for exactly a year to the day. It was so weird, one year later, HALF
the stuff in the house quit working. I had a dead leg. When they came out,
i explained what had happened the year before and so they dug again. Sure
enough, about 2 feet from the neutral problem, one of the hot legs had
corroded in half.

After screwing around with it, I decided the drill was
dying and went to get another one from the back room. That room is
dark so I flipped on the lights. They were real dim. That's when I
realized there might be an electrical problem. I took that drill to
the house and it worked fine. I went back to the garage and plugged
it into another outlet. As soon as I turned it on, those dim lights
in the back room got real bright, and a few seconds later they went
out (they were CFL bulbs). thats when something smelled hot, and I
found smoke around one of those CFL bulbs. I shot off the switch to
those lights and got my test meter. I got odd votages all over the
garage. I flipped on a light on another breaker and it flashed and
burned out immediately. At that same time the radio in there which
always comes on when I turn on the lights, got real loud, then quit. ******I flipped on my 240V welder and it worked fine. At the same time I
noticed the outdoor flood light came on. With the welder on, I
flipped on soem more lights and they all worked normally. When I shut
off the welder some lights got real dim, others real bright.******

--
I took my Biology exam last Friday. I was asked to name two things commonly found in cells. Apparently "Blacks" and "Scousers" were not the correct answers.

On Tue, 15 Apr 2014 23:24:28 +0100, Uncle Peter wrote:

Found the 2 below quotes by mistake when googling, relevant parts asterisked. How on earth does connecting a 240 V load make the missing neutral problem go away for the 120 V appliances?

I can answer this with experience. A long long time ago, (about 1987) we
experience some weird happenings with our lights and whole house fan. The
whole house fan is what tipped us off to the problem initially. It all of a
sudden just slowed down. Some lights were bright, some were dim. The TV
would not come on. After poking around a bit, i got out the (analog) meter
and found some outlets had about 80 volts and others had about 144. ******Then,
some how, i had the brilliant idea of turning on the oven. When i turned
the oven on, the fan went back to normal, the lights normal. The 240v load
apparently balanced the system.****** I was at somewhat of a loss at that point.
I was not near as experience in electrical things at that time. I called an
electrician friend of mine, he came down, poked around in the box some and
decided to loosen the ground on the buss. "OH! GUESS WHAT? Fire on the
ground" he said. I'm like "what's that mean"?. He said "well even though
i've never seen this before, it sure looks like an open neutral. So i get
on the horn with the power company. FYI, it was Kansas City Power and
Light. They come out, and basically look at what i'm experiencing and the
first thing the guy does is pull the meter. Then he measures the voltages
on the incoming legs. All is equal. Then he tells me the problem must be
on the inside. Puts the meter back in and the imbalance returns. "yep , he
says, problem is on your side". So at this point, i'm at wits end, not
knowing what to do, so I calls the fire dept and they say 'do you have a
fire'? I says no, but I will, if someone does not fix this power imbalance.
So that prompts a little higher level of action from KCPL, and they come out
again. The service guy makes all his checks and then talks on the radio for
a while. His supervisor says "you know that sounds like an open neutral".
The guy comes back and says they suspect an open neutral. At that point, I
explode. I said "NO **** SHERLOCK" I told you guys that 3 hours ago. They
ran a bare wire from my meter can to the service box on the street and lo
and behold, all becomes normal again. (did i mention i have underground
service?) They came out the next day and started digging. About a foot
from my water meter, at a depth of about 16" the neutral wire was corroded
clean in half. Apparently it had been nicked by the backhoe putting in the
water line 10 year prior. Well anyway, they fixed the wire, and all was
good for exactly a year to the day. It was so weird, one year later, HALF
the stuff in the house quit working. I had a dead leg. When they came out,
i explained what had happened the year before and so they dug again. Sure
enough, about 2 feet from the neutral problem, one of the hot legs had
corroded in half.

After screwing around with it, I decided the drill was
dying and went to get another one from the back room. That room is
dark so I flipped on the lights. They were real dim. That's when I
realized there might be an electrical problem. I took that drill to
the house and it worked fine. I went back to the garage and plugged
it into another outlet. As soon as I turned it on, those dim lights
in the back room got real bright, and a few seconds later they went
out (they were CFL bulbs). thats when something smelled hot, and I
found smoke around one of those CFL bulbs. I shot off the switch to
those lights and got my test meter. I got odd votages all over the
garage. I flipped on a light on another breaker and it flashed and
burned out immediately. At that same time the radio in there which
always comes on when I turn on the lights, got real loud, then quit. ******I flipped on my 240V welder and it worked fine. At the same time I
noticed the outdoor flood light came on. With the welder on, I
flipped on soem more lights and they all worked normally. When I shut
off the welder some lights got real dim, others real bright.******

Plus.... I've found a few websites saying 220V American appliances can't operate in the UK, because they have two phase power over there? WTF? Surely all their big appliances see is 220V, connected from L1 to L2. Over here they get the same, but L to N.

--
To truly love another, you must first love yourself. And it wouldn't kill you to wash your hands in between either.

On Tue, 15 Apr 2014 23:53:46 +0100, Uncle Peter wrote:

Plus.... I've found a few websites saying 220V American appliances can't
operate in the UK, because they have two phase power over there? WTF?
Surely all their big appliances see is 220V, connected from L1 to L2.
Over here they get the same, but L to N.

They might object to our nominal 230 V, commonly 240 V and allowed
maximum of 253 V... 220 V is just 4 V above our allowed minimum.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Tue, 15 Apr 2014 23:53:46 +0100
"Uncle Peter" wrote:

Plus.... I've found a few websites saying 220V American appliances
can't operate in the UK, because they have two phase power over there?

Which websites?

--
Davey.

On 15/04/2014 23:53, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Tue, 15 Apr 2014 23:24:28 +0100, Uncle Peter wrote:

Plus.... I've found a few websites saying 220V American appliances can't
operate in the UK, because they have two phase power over there? WTF?
Surely all their big appliances see is 220V, connected from L1 to L2.
Over here they get the same, but L to N.

It can be true of US inductive loads like motors built down to a price.
The difference in current between a 60Hz design and 50Hz operation can
be a nearly 20% increase in current draw. Running hot = shorter life.

A lot of stuff sold in the USA comes with a US only wallwart PSU.
Japanese kit comes with the ability to run on either since half the
country has US installed 60Hz generators and the rest British 50Hz.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 16/04/14 00:45, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 15 Apr 2014 23:53:46 +0100, Uncle Peter wrote:

Plus.... I've found a few websites saying 220V American appliances can't
operate in the UK, because they have two phase power over there? WTF?
Surely all their big appliances see is 220V, connected from L1 to L2.
Over here they get the same, but L to N.

They might object to our nominal 230 V, commonly 240 V and allowed
maximum of 253 V... 220 V is just 4 V above our allowed minimum.


Also, as their supply for 220V is actually 110-0-110 the appliance might
not have insulation factory tested for 220V to earth.

I say tested as it's pretty unlikely they used wires that were good for
110V but not 220V - it's just it may not have been type tested for that
scenario so they don't want to say you can...

"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...
On 15/04/2014 23:53, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Tue, 15 Apr 2014 23:24:28 +0100, Uncle Peter wrote:

Plus.... I've found a few websites saying 220V American appliances can't
operate in the UK, because they have two phase power over there? WTF?
Surely all their big appliances see is 220V, connected from L1 to L2.
Over here they get the same, but L to N.

It can be true of US inductive loads like motors built down to a price.
The difference in current between a 60Hz design and 50Hz operation can be
a nearly 20% increase in current draw. Running hot = shorter life.

A lot of stuff sold in the USA comes with a US only wallwart PSU. Japanese
kit comes with the ability to run on either since half the country has US
installed 60Hz generators and the rest British 50Hz.

Japan uses 100 volts mind,

America, the houses have 2 phases at 110 volts coming in, the breaker box is
split in half, and half the house wired on one 110 volt phase, the other
half wired to the 2nd phase, they need to balance the loads a bit to avoid
overloading the common neutral.

When they put in a 220 volt appliance (tumble drier, cooker/range, big
welder, RV power, big air conditioners etc) they use both 110 volt phases
and not the neutral wire,
if the neutral is used it will be for 110 volt parts in the appliance... the
motor in the tumble drier, clock on the cooker etc.

On 15/04/2014 23:53, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Tue, 15 Apr 2014 23:24:28 +0100, Uncle Peter wrote:

Found the 2 below quotes by mistake when googling, relevant parts
asterisked. How on earth does connecting a 240 V load make the
missing neutral problem go away for the 120 V appliances?

I can answer this with experience. A long long time ago, (about 1987) we
experience some weird happenings with our lights and whole house fan.
The
whole house fan is what tipped us off to the problem initially. It
all of a
sudden just slowed down. Some lights were bright, some were dim. The TV
would not come on. After poking around a bit, i got out the (analog)
meter
and found some outlets had about 80 volts and others had about 144.
******Then,
some how, i had the brilliant idea of turning on the oven. When i turned
the oven on, the fan went back to normal, the lights normal. The 240v
load
apparently balanced the system.****** I was at somewhat of a loss at
that point.
I was not near as experience in electrical things at that time. I
called an
electrician friend of mine, he came down, poked around in the box some
and
decided to loosen the ground on the buss. "OH! GUESS WHAT? Fire on the
ground" he said. I'm like "what's that mean"?. He said "well even
though
i've never seen this before, it sure looks like an open neutral. So i
get
on the horn with the power company. FYI, it was Kansas City Power and
Light. They come out, and basically look at what i'm experiencing and
the
first thing the guy does is pull the meter. Then he measures the
voltages
on the incoming legs. All is equal. Then he tells me the problem
must be
on the inside. Puts the meter back in and the imbalance returns.
"yep , he
says, problem is on your side". So at this point, i'm at wits end, not
knowing what to do, so I calls the fire dept and they say 'do you have a
fire'? I says no, but I will, if someone does not fix this power
imbalance.
So that prompts a little higher level of action from KCPL, and they
come out
again. The service guy makes all his checks and then talks on the
radio for
a while. His supervisor says "you know that sounds like an open
neutral".
The guy comes back and says they suspect an open neutral. At that
point, I
explode. I said "NO **** SHERLOCK" I told you guys that 3 hours
ago. They
ran a bare wire from my meter can to the service box on the street and lo
and behold, all becomes normal again. (did i mention i have underground
service?) They came out the next day and started digging. About a foot
from my water meter, at a depth of about 16" the neutral wire was
corroded
clean in half. Apparently it had been nicked by the backhoe putting
in the
water line 10 year prior. Well anyway, they fixed the wire, and all was
good for exactly a year to the day. It was so weird, one year later,
HALF
the stuff in the house quit working. I had a dead leg. When they
came out,
i explained what had happened the year before and so they dug again.
Sure
enough, about 2 feet from the neutral problem, one of the hot legs had
corroded in half.

After screwing around with it, I decided the drill was
dying and went to get another one from the back room. That room is
dark so I flipped on the lights. They were real dim. That's when I
realized there might be an electrical problem. I took that drill to
the house and it worked fine. I went back to the garage and plugged
it into another outlet. As soon as I turned it on, those dim lights
in the back room got real bright, and a few seconds later they went
out (they were CFL bulbs). thats when something smelled hot, and I
found smoke around one of those CFL bulbs. I shot off the switch to
those lights and got my test meter. I got odd votages all over the
garage. I flipped on a light on another breaker and it flashed and
burned out immediately. At that same time the radio in there which
always comes on when I turn on the lights, got real loud, then quit.
******I flipped on my 240V welder and it worked fine. At the same time I
noticed the outdoor flood light came on. With the welder on, I
flipped on soem more lights and they all worked normally. When I shut
off the welder some lights got real dim, others real bright.******

Plus.... I've found a few websites saying 220V American appliances can't
operate in the UK, because they have two phase power over there? WTF?
Surely all their big appliances see is 220V, connected from L1 to L2.
Over here they get the same, but L to N.


Oven I bought just recently could be wired to a 2 phase system. I did
wonder why - so it's the American way of getting enough current to
operate appliances. Ah!
Snot

--
Blow my nose to email me

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

On 16/04/14 08:35, Gazz wrote:

When they put in a 220 volt appliance (tumble drier, cooker/range, big
welder, RV power, big air conditioners etc) they use both 110 volt
phases and not the neutral wire,
if the neutral is used it will be for 110 volt parts in the appliance...
the motor in the tumble drier, clock on the cooker etc.

I presume they use a double pole MCB too?

Does this mean that their back end supply is actually 6 phase?

Are you still on the medication though. Sounds like you needed a live in
electrician with a jcb.
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"Uncle Peter" wrote in message
news
Found the 2 below quotes by mistake when googling, relevant parts
asterisked. How on earth does connecting a 240 V load make the missing
neutral problem go away for the 120 V appliances?

I can answer this with experience. A long long time ago, (about 1987) we
experience some weird happenings with our lights and whole house fan. The
whole house fan is what tipped us off to the problem initially. It all of
a
sudden just slowed down. Some lights were bright, some were dim. The TV
would not come on. After poking around a bit, i got out the (analog)
meter
and found some outlets had about 80 volts and others had about 144.
******Then,
some how, i had the brilliant idea of turning on the oven. When i turned
the oven on, the fan went back to normal, the lights normal. The 240v
load
apparently balanced the system.****** I was at somewhat of a loss at that
point.
I was not near as experience in electrical things at that time. I called
an
electrician friend of mine, he came down, poked around in the box some and
decided to loosen the ground on the buss. "OH! GUESS WHAT? Fire on the
ground" he said. I'm like "what's that mean"?. He said "well even though
i've never seen this before, it sure looks like an open neutral. So i get
on the horn with the power company. FYI, it was Kansas City Power and
Light. They come out, and basically look at what i'm experiencing and the
first thing the guy does is pull the meter. Then he measures the voltages
on the incoming legs. All is equal. Then he tells me the problem must be
on the inside. Puts the meter back in and the imbalance returns. "yep ,
he
says, problem is on your side". So at this point, i'm at wits end, not
knowing what to do, so I calls the fire dept and they say 'do you have a
fire'? I says no, but I will, if someone does not fix this power
imbalance.
So that prompts a little higher level of action from KCPL, and they come
out
again. The service guy makes all his checks and then talks on the radio
for
a while. His supervisor says "you know that sounds like an open neutral".
The guy comes back and says they suspect an open neutral. At that point,
I
explode. I said "NO **** SHERLOCK" I told you guys that 3 hours ago.
They
ran a bare wire from my meter can to the service box on the street and lo
and behold, all becomes normal again. (did i mention i have underground
service?) They came out the next day and started digging. About a foot
from my water meter, at a depth of about 16" the neutral wire was corroded
clean in half. Apparently it had been nicked by the backhoe putting in
the
water line 10 year prior. Well anyway, they fixed the wire, and all was
good for exactly a year to the day. It was so weird, one year later, HALF
the stuff in the house quit working. I had a dead leg. When they came
out,
i explained what had happened the year before and so they dug again. Sure
enough, about 2 feet from the neutral problem, one of the hot legs had
corroded in half.

After screwing around with it, I decided the drill was
dying and went to get another one from the back room. That room is
dark so I flipped on the lights. They were real dim. That's when I
realized there might be an electrical problem. I took that drill to
the house and it worked fine. I went back to the garage and plugged
it into another outlet. As soon as I turned it on, those dim lights
in the back room got real bright, and a few seconds later they went
out (they were CFL bulbs). thats when something smelled hot, and I
found smoke around one of those CFL bulbs. I shot off the switch to
those lights and got my test meter. I got odd votages all over the
garage. I flipped on a light on another breaker and it flashed and
burned out immediately. At that same time the radio in there which
always comes on when I turn on the lights, got real loud, then quit.
******I flipped on my 240V welder and it worked fine. At the same time I
noticed the outdoor flood light came on. With the welder on, I
flipped on soem more lights and they all worked normally. When I shut
off the welder some lights got real dim, others real bright.******

--
I took my Biology exam last Friday. I was asked to name two things
commonly found in cells. Apparently "Blacks" and "Scousers" were not the
correct answers.

On Wednesday, April 16, 2014 10:56:18 AM UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 16/04/14 08:35, Gazz wrote:



When they put in a 220 volt appliance (tumble drier, cooker/range, big

welder, RV power, big air conditioners etc) they use both 110 volt

phases and not the neutral wire,

if the neutral is used it will be for 110 volt parts in the appliance....

the motor in the tumble drier, clock on the cooker etc.



I presume they use a double pole MCB too?



Does this mean that their back end supply is actually 6 phase?

No.

American houses are typically supplied split phase, where a single phase is centre grounded, giving two legs each at approx 120v to earth each and 240v between each other. Some do have two phases of a three phase supply giving 208v between each other (this causes problems). This is the situation at least domestically.

They also have another strange layout called high leg delta, where power is three phase delta connected, with one of the phases centre grounded, giving two legs with 120V to neutral, 240v phase to phase and one phase with 208v to neutral.

The back end is normal three phase power.

Philip

Eh?


On Wed, 16 Apr 2014 11:10:50 +0100, Brian Gaff wrote:

Are you still on the medication though. Sounds like you needed a live in
electrician with a jcb.
Brian



--
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. -- Seneca the Younger 4 b.c.- 65 a.d.

On Wed, 16 Apr 2014 08:35:16 +0100, Gazz wrote:


"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...
On 15/04/2014 23:53, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Tue, 15 Apr 2014 23:24:28 +0100, Uncle Peter wrote:

Plus.... I've found a few websites saying 220V American appliances can't
operate in the UK, because they have two phase power over there? WTF?
Surely all their big appliances see is 220V, connected from L1 to L2.
Over here they get the same, but L to N.

It can be true of US inductive loads like motors built down to a price.
The difference in current between a 60Hz design and 50Hz operation can be
a nearly 20% increase in current draw. Running hot = shorter life.

A lot of stuff sold in the USA comes with a US only wallwart PSU. Japanese
kit comes with the ability to run on either since half the country has US
installed 60Hz generators and the rest British 50Hz.

Japan uses 100 volts mind,

America, the houses have 2 phases at 110 volts coming in, the breaker box is
split in half, and half the house wired on one 110 volt phase, the other
half wired to the 2nd phase, they need to balance the loads a bit to avoid
overloading the common neutral.

When they put in a 220 volt appliance (tumble drier, cooker/range, big
welder, RV power, big air conditioners etc) they use both 110 volt phases
and not the neutral wire,
if the neutral is used it will be for 110 volt parts in the appliance... the
motor in the tumble drier, clock on the cooker etc.

That's the bit where I'm confused. I have seen a few blogs from Americans that lost their neutral, which obviously caused some lights to be too bright and others too dim. But what doesn't make sense is when they turned on the cooker, it stabilised it. That would only make sense if the cooker had a neutral connection strapped to the middle of the heating element. Why would they do that?

Also it sounds like quite a few houses have caught fire over there with a lost neutral, due to 110 volt appliances getting 220V and catching fire. What amused me though is the Americans who had bright and dim lights for ages, and never thought to test the voltages with a meter, and even worse, the guy from the electricity board didn't notice either!

--
An Englishman was feeling a little queezy on his first sailing, and leaned over the edge of the boat. He saw a Frenchman below opening his porthole so, feeling the urge to bring up his dinner, he yelled "LOOK OUT!"
The Frenchman stuck his head out of the porthole and was decorated with semi-digested food. "YOU SILLY ENGLISHMAN!!!!" he yelled, "Why do you say look out when you mean look in?"

On Wed, 16 Apr 2014 01:00:02 +0100, Davey wrote:

On Tue, 15 Apr 2014 23:53:46 +0100
"Uncle Peter" wrote:

Plus.... I've found a few websites saying 220V American appliances
can't operate in the UK, because they have two phase power over there?

Which websites?

Here's one: http://www.220voltappliances.com/faq.htm
"Can I connect an American 220 Volt Dryer or other 220 volt American products to a Transformer?
No you cannot connect an American 220 Volt Dryer or other 220 volt american products to a Transformer. Voltage Transformers are made to convert single phase 110 or 220 volt. American 220 volt consists of 2 phase of 110 volt and European 220 volt consists of 1 phase of 220 volt."

--
Uncle Larry was smoking in a restaurant the other day when a guy came up to him and said, "That smoke's bothering me."
Larry said, "Well, it's killing me. If I don't care about what it's doing to me, why would I give a **** what it's doing to you?"

On Wed, 16 Apr 2014 08:52:30 +0100, snot wrote:

On 15/04/2014 23:53, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Tue, 15 Apr 2014 23:24:28 +0100, Uncle Peter wrote:

Found the 2 below quotes by mistake when googling, relevant parts
asterisked. How on earth does connecting a 240 V load make the
missing neutral problem go away for the 120 V appliances?

I can answer this with experience. A long long time ago, (about 1987) we
experience some weird happenings with our lights and whole house fan.
The
whole house fan is what tipped us off to the problem initially. It
all of a
sudden just slowed down. Some lights were bright, some were dim. The TV
would not come on. After poking around a bit, i got out the (analog)
meter
and found some outlets had about 80 volts and others had about 144.
******Then,
some how, i had the brilliant idea of turning on the oven. When i turned
the oven on, the fan went back to normal, the lights normal. The 240v
load
apparently balanced the system.****** I was at somewhat of a loss at
that point.
I was not near as experience in electrical things at that time. I
called an
electrician friend of mine, he came down, poked around in the box some
and
decided to loosen the ground on the buss. "OH! GUESS WHAT? Fire on the
ground" he said. I'm like "what's that mean"?. He said "well even
though
i've never seen this before, it sure looks like an open neutral. So i
get
on the horn with the power company. FYI, it was Kansas City Power and
Light. They come out, and basically look at what i'm experiencing and
the
first thing the guy does is pull the meter. Then he measures the
voltages
on the incoming legs. All is equal. Then he tells me the problem
must be
on the inside. Puts the meter back in and the imbalance returns.
"yep , he
says, problem is on your side". So at this point, i'm at wits end, not
knowing what to do, so I calls the fire dept and they say 'do you have a
fire'? I says no, but I will, if someone does not fix this power
imbalance.
So that prompts a little higher level of action from KCPL, and they
come out
again. The service guy makes all his checks and then talks on the
radio for
a while. His supervisor says "you know that sounds like an open
neutral".
The guy comes back and says they suspect an open neutral. At that
point, I
explode. I said "NO **** SHERLOCK" I told you guys that 3 hours
ago. They
ran a bare wire from my meter can to the service box on the street and lo
and behold, all becomes normal again. (did i mention i have underground
service?) They came out the next day and started digging. About a foot
from my water meter, at a depth of about 16" the neutral wire was
corroded
clean in half. Apparently it had been nicked by the backhoe putting
in the
water line 10 year prior. Well anyway, they fixed the wire, and all was
good for exactly a year to the day. It was so weird, one year later,
HALF
the stuff in the house quit working. I had a dead leg. When they
came out,
i explained what had happened the year before and so they dug again.
Sure
enough, about 2 feet from the neutral problem, one of the hot legs had
corroded in half.

After screwing around with it, I decided the drill was
dying and went to get another one from the back room. That room is
dark so I flipped on the lights. They were real dim. That's when I
realized there might be an electrical problem. I took that drill to
the house and it worked fine. I went back to the garage and plugged
it into another outlet. As soon as I turned it on, those dim lights
in the back room got real bright, and a few seconds later they went
out (they were CFL bulbs). thats when something smelled hot, and I
found smoke around one of those CFL bulbs. I shot off the switch to
those lights and got my test meter. I got odd votages all over the
garage. I flipped on a light on another breaker and it flashed and
burned out immediately. At that same time the radio in there which
always comes on when I turn on the lights, got real loud, then quit.
******I flipped on my 240V welder and it worked fine. At the same time I
noticed the outdoor flood light came on. With the welder on, I
flipped on soem more lights and they all worked normally. When I shut
off the welder some lights got real dim, others real bright.******

Plus.... I've found a few websites saying 220V American appliances can't
operate in the UK, because they have two phase power over there? WTF?
Surely all their big appliances see is 220V, connected from L1 to L2.
Over here they get the same, but L to N.


Oven I bought just recently could be wired to a 2 phase system. I did
wonder why - so it's the American way of getting enough current to
operate appliances. Ah!
Snot

But 2 phase looks just like 1 phase to the appliance.

--
Interesting fact number 476:
80% of millionaires drive used cars.

On Wed, 16 Apr 2014 08:16:29 +0100, Martin Brown wrote:

On 15/04/2014 23:53, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Tue, 15 Apr 2014 23:24:28 +0100, Uncle Peter wrote:

Plus.... I've found a few websites saying 220V American appliances can't
operate in the UK, because they have two phase power over there? WTF?
Surely all their big appliances see is 220V, connected from L1 to L2.
Over here they get the same, but L to N.

It can be true of US inductive loads like motors built down to a price.
The difference in current between a 60Hz design and 50Hz operation can
be a nearly 20% increase in current draw. Running hot = shorter life.

A lot of stuff sold in the USA comes with a US only wallwart PSU.
Japanese kit comes with the ability to run on either since half the
country has US installed 60Hz generators and the rest British 50Hz.

I read somewhere that 60Hz is actually the most efficient for transformers and motors, and we are wasting 20% of our power over here using 50Hz. 60Hz was calculated to be the most efficient by Tesla. European designers ignores that and used 50, as it's a round number. ****s. I wonder if that's why US power is cheaper to buy?

--
Keyboards used to be expensive and beer used to be cheap.
Now beer is expensive and keyboards are cheap.
Conclusion, it's still bad to spill beer on your keyboard.

On Wed, 16 Apr 2014 08:35:16 +0100, Gazz wrote:


"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...
On 15/04/2014 23:53, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Tue, 15 Apr 2014 23:24:28 +0100, Uncle Peter wrote:

Plus.... I've found a few websites saying 220V American appliances can't
operate in the UK, because they have two phase power over there? WTF?
Surely all their big appliances see is 220V, connected from L1 to L2.
Over here they get the same, but L to N.

It can be true of US inductive loads like motors built down to a price.
The difference in current between a 60Hz design and 50Hz operation can be
a nearly 20% increase in current draw. Running hot = shorter life.

A lot of stuff sold in the USA comes with a US only wallwart PSU. Japanese
kit comes with the ability to run on either since half the country has US
installed 60Hz generators and the rest British 50Hz.

Japan uses 100 volts mind,

America, the houses have 2 phases at 110 volts coming in, the breaker box is
split in half, and half the house wired on one 110 volt phase, the other
half wired to the 2nd phase, they need to balance the loads a bit to avoid
overloading the common neutral.

When they put in a 220 volt appliance (tumble drier, cooker/range, big
welder, RV power, big air conditioners etc) they use both 110 volt phases
and not the neutral wire,
if the neutral is used it will be for 110 volt parts in the appliance... the
motor in the tumble drier, clock on the cooker etc.

Safety conscious idiots needing heavier wire everywhere.

--
Why is it that when you transport something by car, it's called a shipment, but when you transport something by ship, it's called cargo?

On 16/04/14 11:33, wrote:
On Wednesday, April 16, 2014 10:56:18 AM UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:


Does this mean that their back end supply is actually 6 phase?

No.

American houses are typically supplied split phase, where a single
phase is centre grounded, giving two legs each at approx 120v to
earth each and 240v between each other. Some do have two phases of a
three phase supply giving 208v between each other (this causes
problems). This is the situation at least domestically.

They also have another strange layout called high leg delta, where
power is three phase delta connected, with one of the phases centre
grounded, giving two legs with 120V to neutral, 240v phase to phase
and one phase with 208v to neutral.

The back end is normal three phase power.

Philip


Gawd - what a mess.. Sounds like the ancient days in London when you had
funky weird local supplies like one voltage for lighting, another for
power hungry devices and some random 90-degree 2 phase supplies.

My father worked on some of the old equipment that was used to integrate
that lot - including Scott and Leblanc transformers that can interface 3
phase with 2-phase/90 degree systems.

Of course, they managed to eventually get rid of all the crap.

In article , Uncle Peter wrote:
I read somewhere that 60Hz is actually the most efficient for
transformers and motors, and we are wasting 20% of our power over here
using 50Hz.

You shouldn't believe everything you read.

60Hz was calculated to be the most efficient by Tesla.

And he died a bankrupt.

European designers ignores that and used 50, as it's a round number.

Do you know what a round number is?

****s. I wonder if that's why US power is cheaper to buy?

Why would the efficiency of a consuming device make a difference to the
energy price?

--
*I didn't say it was your fault, I said I was blaming you.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wed, 16 Apr 2014 13:44:40 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article , Uncle Peter wrote:
I read somewhere that 60Hz is actually the most efficient for
transformers and motors, and we are wasting 20% of our power over here
using 50Hz.

You shouldn't believe everything you read.

There must be an ideal frequency for a transformer, do you have a link which shows what it is?

60Hz was calculated to be the most efficient by Tesla.

And he died a bankrupt.

Which means he was no good at business, that's all.

European designers ignores that and used 50, as it's a round number.

Do you know what a round number is?

Yes. And 50 is rounder than 60. Why do you think we don't have 60p coins?

****s. I wonder if that's why US power is cheaper to buy?

Why would the efficiency of a consuming device make a difference to the
energy price?

No, the efficiency of the substation transformers.

How would you explain their lower prices?

--
Apparently Jimmy Savile isn't dead, he was recently seen off the Scarborough coast bobbing up and down on a small buoy.

On Wednesday, 16 April 2014 12:21:39 UTC+1, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 16 Apr 2014 08:16:29 +0100, Martin Brown wrote:



On 15/04/2014 23:53, Uncle Peter wrote:

On Tue, 15 Apr 2014 23:24:28 +0100, Uncle Peter wrote:



Plus.... I've found a few websites saying 220V American appliances can't

operate in the UK, because they have two phase power over there? WTF?

Surely all their big appliances see is 220V, connected from L1 to L2.

Over here they get the same, but L to N.



It can be true of US inductive loads like motors built down to a price.

The difference in current between a 60Hz design and 50Hz operation can

be a nearly 20% increase in current draw. Running hot = shorter life.



A lot of stuff sold in the USA comes with a US only wallwart PSU.

Japanese kit comes with the ability to run on either since half the

country has US installed 60Hz generators and the rest British 50Hz.



I read somewhere that 60Hz is actually the most efficient for transformers and motors, and we are wasting 20% of our power over here using 50Hz. 60Hz was calculated to be the most efficient by Tesla. European designers ignores that and used 50, as it's a round number. ****s. I wonder if that's why US power is cheaper to buy?

Well their oil/petrol is cheaper and their food and cars and housing.

http://www.djtelectraining.co.uk/dow...-Frequency.pdf

They also drive on teh wrong side of the road



--

Keyboards used to be expensive and beer used to be cheap.

Now beer is expensive and keyboards are cheap.

Conclusion, it's still bad to spill beer on your keyboard.

On Wed, 16 Apr 2014 14:12:07 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Wednesday, 16 April 2014 12:21:39 UTC+1, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 16 Apr 2014 08:16:29 +0100, Martin Brown wrote:



On 15/04/2014 23:53, Uncle Peter wrote:

On Tue, 15 Apr 2014 23:24:28 +0100, Uncle Peter wrote:



Plus.... I've found a few websites saying 220V American appliances can't

operate in the UK, because they have two phase power over there? WTF?

Surely all their big appliances see is 220V, connected from L1 to L2.

Over here they get the same, but L to N.



It can be true of US inductive loads like motors built down to a price.

The difference in current between a 60Hz design and 50Hz operation can

be a nearly 20% increase in current draw. Running hot = shorter life.



A lot of stuff sold in the USA comes with a US only wallwart PSU.

Japanese kit comes with the ability to run on either since half the

country has US installed 60Hz generators and the rest British 50Hz.



I read somewhere that 60Hz is actually the most efficient for transformers and motors, and we are wasting 20% of our power over here using 50Hz. 60Hz was calculated to be the most efficient by Tesla. European designers ignores that and used 50, as it's a round number. ****s. I wonder if that's why US power is cheaper to buy?

Well their oil/petrol is cheaper and their food and cars and housing.

http://www.djtelectraining.co.uk/dow...-Frequency.pdf

They also drive on teh wrong side of the road

Japan is certainly interesting from your link.

I wonder what the most efficient frequency is though.

--
Women are like a pack of cards... you need a heart to love them, diamonds to marry them, a club to kill them and a spade to bury them.

On 16/04/14 16:02, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Uncle Peter wrote:

I read somewhere that 60Hz is actually the most efficient for
transformers
and motors, and we are wasting 20% of our power over here using 50Hz.

Wasting it where? You imagining that every time juice is shoved through
a transformer anywhere in the UK that we waste 20% ??

If that was the case then (a) there's be **** all by the time it
arrived at your house and (b) all the transformers would ****ing melt.
Do you know how much power goes through a transformer? And you're
suggesting that 20% of it gets turned to heat there?


Exactly. Losses more like 1% or less for medium sized transformers...
That's still warm at 500-1000kVA

On 16/04/2014 14:00, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 16 Apr 2014 13:44:40 +0100, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article , Uncle Peter wrote:
I read somewhere that 60Hz is actually the most efficient for
transformers and motors, and we are wasting 20% of our power over here
using 50Hz.

You shouldn't believe everything you read.

There must be an ideal frequency for a transformer, do you have a link
which shows what it is?

Depends what you want to do with it. Modern high efficiency PSU designs
use a few tens of kHz since it allows much smaller components.

60Hz was calculated to be the most efficient by Tesla.

And he died a bankrupt.

Which means he was no good at business, that's all.

He was sort of right that at a higher frequency you can get away with
less metal in your transformers, but in some ways with a continental
scale national grid the wavelength becomes an issue too.

50Hz = 6000km wavelength
60Hz = 5000km wavelength

USA is approximately 5000km wide eg New York to San Fransisco.

It is the lack of metal in US transformers and inductive components that
can lead to saturation and overheating failure on UK 50Hz mains.

Aircraft use 400Hz AC to keep the weight down - being a good compromise
between losses in the materials and power handling.

European designers ignores that and used 50, as it's a round number.

Do you know what a round number is?

Yes. And 50 is rounder than 60. Why do you think we don't have 60p coins?

You might not be aware that we have 60s in a minute and 60m in an hour.
Blame the Babylonians for that...

****s. I wonder if that's why US power is cheaper to buy?

Why would the efficiency of a consuming device make a difference to the
energy price?

No, the efficiency of the substation transformers.

How would you explain their lower prices?

The efficiency isn't noticeably different 50 to 60Hz but you can make
them out of a smaller amount of material as the frequency is increased.

The history of mains frequencies makes interesting reading with
everything from local DC to 13-133Hz AC being used somewhere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_frequency

And some private supplies had unstable frequency.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 16/04/2014 14:00, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 16 Apr 2014 13:44:40 +0100, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article , Uncle Peter wrote:
I read somewhere that 60Hz is actually the most efficient for
transformers and motors, and we are wasting 20% of our power over here
using 50Hz.

You shouldn't believe everything you read.

There must be an ideal frequency for a transformer, do you have a link
which shows what it is?

If the transformer or motor is designed for 50Hz, then that's the best
and most efficient frequency for it. Likewise for transformers and
motors designed for 60Hz. As the frequency gets higher, the core can get
smaller, which is the reason many aircraft AC transmission systems use
400Hz. It's also the reason why switch mode supplies internally use
frequencies in the tens of kilohertz range. The transformer efficiencies
are very close at all the frequencies used.

European designers ignores that and used 50, as it's a round number.

Do you know what a round number is?

Yes. And 50 is rounder than 60. Why do you think we don't have 60p coins?

The same reason nobody else does. The steps 1, 2, 5, 10, 20, 50, 100....
let you make up any amount of money with the smallest number of coins
and notes, assuming you use a decimal currency system.

It's got nothing to do with why we use 50Hz, and the Yanks use 60hz.
That has more to do with the accident of history as to who set up the
first system in each country. The Japanese have it worse, as half their
supplies are 50hz, and the other half are 60Hz. This means that all
their equipment has to be able to work on either frequency, or the
manufacturers need to tool up for two different motor designs and speeds.

****s. I wonder if that's why US power is cheaper to buy?

Why would the efficiency of a consuming device make a difference to the
energy price?

No, the efficiency of the substation transformers.

How would you explain their lower prices?

Cheaper coal and oil for a start. I can design a substation transformer
to have the same efficiency (In the high 90% range) for any frequency.
The differences are in the core sizes and winding layouts.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

In article , Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 16 Apr 2014 08:16:29 +0100, Martin Brown
wrote:

On 15/04/2014 23:53, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Tue, 15 Apr 2014 23:24:28 +0100, Uncle Peter wrote:

Plus.... I've found a few websites saying 220V American appliances
can't operate in the UK, because they have two phase power over there?
WTF? Surely all their big appliances see is 220V, connected from L1
to L2. Over here they get the same, but L to N.

It can be true of US inductive loads like motors built down to a price.
The difference in current between a 60Hz design and 50Hz operation can
be a nearly 20% increase in current draw. Running hot = shorter life.

A lot of stuff sold in the USA comes with a US only wallwart PSU.
Japanese kit comes with the ability to run on either since half the
country has US installed 60Hz generators and the rest British 50Hz.

I read somewhere that 60Hz is actually the most efficient for
transformers and motors, and we are wasting 20% of our power over here
using 50Hz. 60Hz was calculated to be the most efficient by Tesla.
European designers ignores that and used 50, as it's a round number.
****s. I wonder if that's why US power is cheaper to buy?

ICI used 33 at Teesside; Aircraft use a much higher frequency.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

In article ,
Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 16 Apr 2014 13:44:40 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article , Uncle Peter wrote:
I read somewhere that 60Hz is actually the most efficient for
transformers and motors, and we are wasting 20% of our power over here
using 50Hz.

You shouldn't believe everything you read.

There must be an ideal frequency for a transformer, do you have a link
which shows what it is?

It'll depend on what the transformer load is.

60Hz was calculated to be the most efficient by Tesla.

And he died a bankrupt.

Which means he was no good at business, that's all.

Or not efficient?

European designers ignores that and used 50, as it's a round number.

Do you know what a round number is?

Yes. And 50 is rounder than 60. Why do you think we don't have 60p
coins?

See what you mean. A 50p coin is round.

****s. I wonder if that's why US power is cheaper to buy?

Why would the efficiency of a consuming device make a difference to
the energy price?

No, the efficiency of the substation transformers.

How would you explain their lower prices?

They have cheaper energy to make it from?

--
*All men are idiots, and I married their King.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wed, 16 Apr 2014 15:39:42 +0100, Martin Brown wrote:

On 16/04/2014 14:00, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 16 Apr 2014 13:44:40 +0100, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article , Uncle Peter wrote:
I read somewhere that 60Hz is actually the most efficient for
transformers and motors, and we are wasting 20% of our power over here
using 50Hz.

You shouldn't believe everything you read.

There must be an ideal frequency for a transformer, do you have a link
which shows what it is?

Depends what you want to do with it. Modern high efficiency PSU designs
use a few tens of kHz since it allows much smaller components.

I'm taking about the transformers in substations.

60Hz was calculated to be the most efficient by Tesla.

And he died a bankrupt.

Which means he was no good at business, that's all.

He was sort of right that at a higher frequency you can get away with
less metal in your transformers, but in some ways with a continental
scale national grid the wavelength becomes an issue too.

50Hz = 6000km wavelength
60Hz = 5000km wavelength

USA is approximately 5000km wide eg New York to San Fransisco.

What's wrong with the wavelength?

It is the lack of metal in US transformers and inductive components that
can lead to saturation and overheating failure on UK 50Hz mains.

Aircraft use 400Hz AC to keep the weight down - being a good compromise
between losses in the materials and power handling.

European designers ignores that and used 50, as it's a round number.

Do you know what a round number is?

Yes. And 50 is rounder than 60. Why do you think we don't have 60p coins?

You might not be aware that we have 60s in a minute and 60m in an hour.
Blame the Babylonians for that...

Yes, and our time system is awful. Why base electricity on something already non-metric?

--
If there's a fire why not just open the fire exit to let it out?

On Wed, 16 Apr 2014 16:02:18 +0100, Tim Streater wrote:

In article , Uncle Peter wrote:

I read somewhere that 60Hz is actually the most efficient for transformers
and motors, and we are wasting 20% of our power over here using 50Hz.

Wasting it where? You imagining that every time juice is shoved through
a transformer anywhere in the UK that we waste 20% ??

If that was the case then (a) there's be **** all by the time it
arrived at your house and (b) all the transformers would ****ing melt.
Do you know how much power goes through a transformer? And you're
suggesting that 20% of it gets turned to heat there?

No, 20% overall from power station to house.

--
A man came home from work earlier than usual and caught his wife in bed with his best friend.
Enraged, the husband grabbed a gun and shot his friend.
His wife said, "You know, if you go on like this, you're going to lose ALL your friends."

On Wed, 16 Apr 2014 15:29:18 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

On 16/04/14 16:02, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Uncle Peter wrote:

I read somewhere that 60Hz is actually the most efficient for
transformers
and motors, and we are wasting 20% of our power over here using 50Hz.

Wasting it where? You imagining that every time juice is shoved through
a transformer anywhere in the UK that we waste 20% ??

If that was the case then (a) there's be **** all by the time it
arrived at your house and (b) all the transformers would ****ing melt.
Do you know how much power goes through a transformer? And you're
suggesting that 20% of it gets turned to heat there?


Exactly. Losses more like 1% or less for medium sized transformers...
That's still warm at 500-1000kVA

I've got a 12V AC transformer here (wall wart) that gets very warm with no load! Weird thing is it's the same temperature with full load?!?

--
If one of the questions in a GCSE exam was "express 4.8% as a fraction", 4.8% would give "low battery".

In article ,
Uncle Peter wrote:
I've got a 12V AC transformer here (wall wart) that gets very warm with
no load! Weird thing is it's the same temperature with full load?!?

Must have been made for 60 Hz...

--
*How about "never"? Is "never" good for you?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Well, have you actually read your post?
It sounded a bit like a rant, andhence my comment.
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"Uncle Peter" wrote in message
news
Eh?


On Wed, 16 Apr 2014 11:10:50 +0100, Brian Gaff
wrote:

Are you still on the medication though. Sounds like you needed a live in
electrician with a jcb.
Brian



--
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false,
and by the rulers as useful. -- Seneca the Younger 4 b.c.- 65 a.d.

On 16/04/2014 17:49, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 16 Apr 2014 15:39:42 +0100, Martin Brown
wrote:

On 16/04/2014 14:00, Uncle Peter wrote:
There must be an ideal frequency for a transformer, do you have a link
which shows what it is?

Depends what you want to do with it. Modern high efficiency PSU designs
use a few tens of kHz since it allows much smaller components.

I'm taking about the transformers in substations.

60Hz transformers are *exactly* the same efficiency as 50Hz transformers
as long as each is run at its design frequency. 60Hz ones having a bit
less steel (Due to the frequency) and a bit more copper (Due to the
higher output current in the USA, as they use a lower final distribution
voltage) is the only difference.

He was sort of right that at a higher frequency you can get away with
less metal in your transformers, but in some ways with a continental
scale national grid the wavelength becomes an issue too.

50Hz = 6000km wavelength
60Hz = 5000km wavelength

USA is approximately 5000km wide eg New York to San Fransisco.

What's wrong with the wavelength?

It means that in New York, if the power were fed from San Francisco, it
would be about a cycle behind San Francisco, with a gradual phase change
across that distance. In theory, you could use the grid in the USA as a
resonant circuit at 60 Hz, which could make life "interesting".

European designers ignores that and used 50, as it's a round number.

Do you know what a round number is?

Yes. And 50 is rounder than 60. Why do you think we don't have 60p
coins?

You might not be aware that we have 60s in a minute and 60m in an hour.
Blame the Babylonians for that...

Yes, and our time system is awful. Why base electricity on something
already non-metric?

Electricity is based on the charge on the electron. This isn't even an
integer, unless you are *very* careful selecting the units.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 16/04/2014 17:52, Uncle Peter wrote:
I've got a 12V AC transformer here (wall wart) that gets very warm with
no load! Weird thing is it's the same temperature with full load?!?

Cheap small transformers are inefficient and get warm in service. Large
expensive ones aren't and don't. Wall warts are made down to a price,
that is, "How small and cheap can we make it without it actually failing
within the warranty period?"

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 16/04/2014 17:51, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 16 Apr 2014 16:02:18 +0100, Tim Streater
wrote:

In article , Uncle Peter wrote:

I read somewhere that 60Hz is actually the most efficient for
transformers
and motors, and we are wasting 20% of our power over here using 50Hz.

Wasting it where? You imagining that every time juice is shoved through
a transformer anywhere in the UK that we waste 20% ??

If that was the case then (a) there's be **** all by the time it
arrived at your house and (b) all the transformers would ****ing melt.
Do you know how much power goes through a transformer? And you're
suggesting that 20% of it gets turned to heat there?

No, 20% overall from power station to house.

That's the same as the losses in the USA. Most of the power is lost in
the overhead cables.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On Wed, 16 Apr 2014 18:11:47 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Uncle Peter wrote:
I've got a 12V AC transformer here (wall wart) that gets very warm with
no load! Weird thing is it's the same temperature with full load?!?

Must have been made for 60 Hz...

Or maybe the core is loose or something? Doesn't make a noise though.
It says 50Hz, made by TDC Power.

--
What did the elephant say to the naked man?
How do you pick up anything with that?

Er.... I asked a question. The very long post was mainly a quote from a website.


On Wed, 16 Apr 2014 18:32:14 +0100, Brian Gaff wrote:

Well, have you actually read your post?
It sounded a bit like a rant, andhence my comment.
Brian



--
One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor.

On Wed, 16 Apr 2014 18:40:01 +0100, John Williamson wrote:

On 16/04/2014 17:49, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 16 Apr 2014 15:39:42 +0100, Martin Brown
wrote:

On 16/04/2014 14:00, Uncle Peter wrote:
There must be an ideal frequency for a transformer, do you have a link
which shows what it is?

Depends what you want to do with it. Modern high efficiency PSU designs
use a few tens of kHz since it allows much smaller components.

I'm taking about the transformers in substations.

60Hz transformers are *exactly* the same efficiency as 50Hz transformers
as long as each is run at its design frequency. 60Hz ones having a bit
less steel (Due to the frequency) and a bit more copper (Due to the
higher output current in the USA, as they use a lower final distribution
voltage) is the only difference.

I guess the website I read about Tesla's 60Hz idea being optimal was somewhat misguided.

He was sort of right that at a higher frequency you can get away with
less metal in your transformers, but in some ways with a continental
scale national grid the wavelength becomes an issue too.

50Hz = 6000km wavelength
60Hz = 5000km wavelength

USA is approximately 5000km wide eg New York to San Fransisco.

What's wrong with the wavelength?

It means that in New York, if the power were fed from San Francisco, it
would be about a cycle behind San Francisco, with a gradual phase change
across that distance. In theory, you could use the grid in the USA as a
resonant circuit at 60 Hz, which could make life "interesting".

I assume they must have some phase matching systems somewhere?

Do you know what a round number is?

Yes. And 50 is rounder than 60. Why do you think we don't have 60p
coins?

You might not be aware that we have 60s in a minute and 60m in an hour.
Blame the Babylonians for that...

Yes, and our time system is awful. Why base electricity on something
already non-metric?

Electricity is based on the charge on the electron. This isn't even an
integer, unless you are *very* careful selecting the units.

But the frequency we choose will have an effect on the number of frames a second on TV, the speed of motors, etc, etc. And those things we like to be metric.

--
__.------.
.-' .---. \
.' .' O )/"\/
.' ) :' L
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On Wed, 16 Apr 2014 18:43:12 +0100, John Williamson wrote:

On 16/04/2014 17:52, Uncle Peter wrote:
I've got a 12V AC transformer here (wall wart) that gets very warm with
no load! Weird thing is it's the same temperature with full load?!?

Cheap small transformers are inefficient and get warm in service. Large
expensive ones aren't and don't. Wall warts are made down to a price,
that is, "How small and cheap can we make it without it actually failing
within the warranty period?"

It's old. I don't think they make wall warts with transformers any more. Cheaper to make a little switched mode and save on the iron core, and postage!

--
Sat opposite an Indian lady on the train today, she shut her eyes and stopped breathing. I thought she was dead, until I saw the red spot on her forehead and realised she was just on standby.

On Wed, 16 Apr 2014 18:43:55 +0100, John Williamson wrote:

On 16/04/2014 17:51, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 16 Apr 2014 16:02:18 +0100, Tim Streater
wrote:

In article , Uncle Peter wrote:

I read somewhere that 60Hz is actually the most efficient for
transformers
and motors, and we are wasting 20% of our power over here using 50Hz.

Wasting it where? You imagining that every time juice is shoved through
a transformer anywhere in the UK that we waste 20% ??

If that was the case then (a) there's be **** all by the time it
arrived at your house and (b) all the transformers would ****ing melt.
Do you know how much power goes through a transformer? And you're
suggesting that 20% of it gets turned to heat there?

No, 20% overall from power station to house.

That's the same as the losses in the USA. Most of the power is lost in
the overhead cables.

What I read said 20% less efficient using 50Hz than 60Hz, when measured from power station to consumer.

--
"I am" is reportedly the shortest sentence in the English language. Could it be that "I do" is the longest sentence?