A friend (some years ago) managed to drill through a ring main cable in
his kitchen. An electrician fitted a box and blanking cover and re-wired
the section down to a socket that was fed by this damaged cable.

He would like to do away with the blanking plate as he wants to position
a cupboard that will be half over where the blanking plate is and do
some tiling.

I seem to recall that properly crimped connections are permitted - and
that these can be buried in plaster (with a bit of protection).

Can someone point me to the authoritative information on this? He will
be using an electrician - but wants to instruct the work correctly as
one electrican has already wanted to re-wire back to another room and
the disruption is not considered worthwhile.



--

DerbyBorn

On 30/12/2013 20:28, DerbyBorn wrote:
A friend (some years ago) managed to drill through a ring main cable in
his kitchen. An electrician fitted a box and blanking cover and re-wired
the section down to a socket that was fed by this damaged cable.

He would like to do away with the blanking plate as he wants to position
a cupboard that will be half over where the blanking plate is and do
some tiling.

I seem to recall that properly crimped connections are permitted - and
that these can be buried in plaster (with a bit of protection).

Can someone point me to the authoritative information on this? He will
be using an electrician - but wants to instruct the work correctly as
one electrican has already wanted to re-wire back to another room and
the disruption is not considered worthwhile.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...ting _methods

(includes link to appropriate section of BS7671 17th edition)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 30/12/2013 21:18, John Rumm wrote:
On 30/12/2013 20:28, DerbyBorn wrote:
A friend (some years ago) managed to drill through a ring main cable in
his kitchen. An electrician fitted a box and blanking cover and re-wired
the section down to a socket that was fed by this damaged cable.

He would like to do away with the blanking plate as he wants to position
a cupboard that will be half over where the blanking plate is and do
some tiling.

I seem to recall that properly crimped connections are permitted - and
that these can be buried in plaster (with a bit of protection).

Can someone point me to the authoritative information on this? He will
be using an electrician - but wants to instruct the work correctly as
one electrican has already wanted to re-wire back to another room and
the disruption is not considered worthwhile.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...ting _methods


(includes link to appropriate section of BS7671 17th edition)


I believe I am right in saying that soldering is also acceptable, and
sometimes you can do this where there isn't enough room or spare cable
to crimp. Ideally you would double sleeve with heatshrink, one for each
conductor and one over-sleeve. I've done repairs where I've used PVC
tape or self amalgamating tape for over-sleeving, although I don't know
how strictly compliant this would be.

On 30/12/2013 21:35, newshound wrote:
On 30/12/2013 21:18, John Rumm wrote:
On 30/12/2013 20:28, DerbyBorn wrote:
A friend (some years ago) managed to drill through a ring main cable in
his kitchen. An electrician fitted a box and blanking cover and re-wired
the section down to a socket that was fed by this damaged cable.

He would like to do away with the blanking plate as he wants to position
a cupboard that will be half over where the blanking plate is and do
some tiling.

I seem to recall that properly crimped connections are permitted - and
that these can be buried in plaster (with a bit of protection).

Can someone point me to the authoritative information on this? He will
be using an electrician - but wants to instruct the work correctly as
one electrican has already wanted to re-wire back to another room and
the disruption is not considered worthwhile.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...ting _methods



(includes link to appropriate section of BS7671 17th edition)


I believe I am right in saying that soldering is also acceptable, and
sometimes you can do this where there isn't enough room or spare cable
to crimp. Ideally you would double sleeve with heatshrink, one for each
conductor and one over-sleeve. I've done repairs where I've used PVC
tape or self amalgamating tape for over-sleeving, although I don't know
how strictly compliant this would be.

Yup soldering is ok as well with adequate mechanical support and
insulation...

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 30 Dec 2013, DerbyBorn grunted in
.236:

A friend (some years ago) managed to drill through a ring main cable
in his kitchen. An electrician fitted a box and blanking cover and
re-wired the section down to a socket that was fed by this damaged
cable.

He would like to do away with the blanking plate as he wants to
position a cupboard that will be half over where the blanking plate is
and do some tiling.

I seem to recall that properly crimped connections are permitted - and
that these can be buried in plaster (with a bit of protection).

Can someone point me to the authoritative information on this? He will
be using an electrician - but wants to instruct the work correctly as
one electrican has already wanted to re-wire back to another room and
the disruption is not considered worthwhile.

I had a similar problem myself a few years back when I had to get an
electrician (NICEIC qualified, etc) in to sort out a wiring problem,
which turned out to have been caused by a previous occupier of the house
having put a picture hook through a buried cable. Regardless of what I
tried to say about the regs, he was adamant that crimping/soldering etc
was unacceptable and the whole cable run had to be replaced (which, to
be fair, he managed to do very effectively).

You might find similar... possibly worth asking the question over the
phone as a hypothetical before engaging a particular electrician.

(One thing I've learned over the years is that however tactfully it's
done, tradesmen do not like having a layman telling them about
regulations...!)

--
David

In article , Lobster
scribeth thus
On 30 Dec 2013, DerbyBorn grunted in
2.236:

A friend (some years ago) managed to drill through a ring main cable
in his kitchen. An electrician fitted a box and blanking cover and
re-wired the section down to a socket that was fed by this damaged
cable.

He would like to do away with the blanking plate as he wants to
position a cupboard that will be half over where the blanking plate is
and do some tiling.

I seem to recall that properly crimped connections are permitted - and
that these can be buried in plaster (with a bit of protection).

Can someone point me to the authoritative information on this? He will
be using an electrician - but wants to instruct the work correctly as
one electrican has already wanted to re-wire back to another room and
the disruption is not considered worthwhile.

I had a similar problem myself a few years back when I had to get an
electrician (NICEIC qualified, etc) in to sort out a wiring problem,
which turned out to have been caused by a previous occupier of the house
having put a picture hook through a buried cable. Regardless of what I
tried to say about the regs, he was adamant that crimping/soldering etc
was unacceptable and the whole cable run had to be replaced (which, to
be fair, he managed to do very effectively).

You might find similar... possibly worth asking the question over the
phone as a hypothetical before engaging a particular electrician.

(One thing I've learned over the years is that however tactfully it's
done, tradesmen do not like having a layman telling them about
regulations...!)



Crimps are fine used them for years on many differing projects currents
cables and voltages and never a problem. However do use decent ratchet
crimpers like this,

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p11261

But NOT like these useless ones;!..

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Hand...%20Tools/Crimp
ing%20Pliers/d10/sd170/p82229
--
Tony Sayer

On 01/01/2014 14:23, tony sayer wrote:
In article , Lobster
scribeth thus
On 30 Dec 2013, DerbyBorn grunted in
.236:

A friend (some years ago) managed to drill through a ring main cable
in his kitchen. An electrician fitted a box and blanking cover and
re-wired the section down to a socket that was fed by this damaged
cable.

He would like to do away with the blanking plate as he wants to
position a cupboard that will be half over where the blanking plate is
and do some tiling.

I seem to recall that properly crimped connections are permitted - and
that these can be buried in plaster (with a bit of protection).

Can someone point me to the authoritative information on this? He will
be using an electrician - but wants to instruct the work correctly as
one electrican has already wanted to re-wire back to another room and
the disruption is not considered worthwhile.

I had a similar problem myself a few years back when I had to get an
electrician (NICEIC qualified, etc) in to sort out a wiring problem,
which turned out to have been caused by a previous occupier of the house
having put a picture hook through a buried cable. Regardless of what I
tried to say about the regs, he was adamant that crimping/soldering etc
was unacceptable and the whole cable run had to be replaced (which, to
be fair, he managed to do very effectively).

You might find similar... possibly worth asking the question over the
phone as a hypothetical before engaging a particular electrician.

(One thing I've learned over the years is that however tactfully it's
done, tradesmen do not like having a layman telling them about
regulations...!)



Crimps are fine used them for years on many differing projects currents
cables and voltages and never a problem. However do use decent ratchet
crimpers like this,

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p11261

But NOT like these useless ones;!..

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Hand...%20Tools/Crimp
ing%20Pliers/d10/sd170/p82229


Ratchet crimpers are only better if they are adjusted correctly.
They can produce a poor joint if they aren't adjusted correctly.
The correct setting depends on the wire size and they are unlikely to be
perfect out of the box.

You can also produce a perfectly fine joint using non ratchet tools if
you know what you are doing.

Possibly the worst fault is over crimping the joint as that weakens it
but it may not pull out of the connector when you test it.

On 01/01/2014 14:23, tony sayer wrote:
Crimps are fine used them for years on many differing projects currents
cables and voltages and never a problem. However do use decent ratchet
crimpers like this,

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p11261

But NOT like these useless ones;!..

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Hand...%20Tools/Crimp
ing%20Pliers/d10/sd170/p82229
--
Having just put a couple of crimps on with a pair just like the latter -
they need a bit of welly on the squeeze, but the crimp didn't want to
come off. What's the problem with them?

Andy

In article om,
dennis@home scribeth thus
On 01/01/2014 14:23, tony sayer wrote:
In article , Lobster
scribeth thus
On 30 Dec 2013, DerbyBorn grunted in
.236:

A friend (some years ago) managed to drill through a ring main cable
in his kitchen. An electrician fitted a box and blanking cover and
re-wired the section down to a socket that was fed by this damaged
cable.

He would like to do away with the blanking plate as he wants to
position a cupboard that will be half over where the blanking plate is
and do some tiling.

I seem to recall that properly crimped connections are permitted - and
that these can be buried in plaster (with a bit of protection).

Can someone point me to the authoritative information on this? He will
be using an electrician - but wants to instruct the work correctly as
one electrican has already wanted to re-wire back to another room and
the disruption is not considered worthwhile.

I had a similar problem myself a few years back when I had to get an
electrician (NICEIC qualified, etc) in to sort out a wiring problem,
which turned out to have been caused by a previous occupier of the house
having put a picture hook through a buried cable. Regardless of what I
tried to say about the regs, he was adamant that crimping/soldering etc
was unacceptable and the whole cable run had to be replaced (which, to
be fair, he managed to do very effectively).

You might find similar... possibly worth asking the question over the
phone as a hypothetical before engaging a particular electrician.

(One thing I've learned over the years is that however tactfully it's
done, tradesmen do not like having a layman telling them about
regulations...!)



Crimps are fine used them for years on many differing projects currents
cables and voltages and never a problem. However do use decent ratchet
crimpers like this,

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p11261

But NOT like these useless ones;!..

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Hand...%20Tools/Crimp
ing%20Pliers/d10/sd170/p82229


Ratchet crimpers are only better if they are adjusted correctly.
They can produce a poor joint if they aren't adjusted correctly.
The correct setting depends on the wire size and they are unlikely to be
perfect out of the box.

You can also produce a perfectly fine joint using non ratchet tools if
you know what you are doing.


Dennis.. Used that type and some very slightly larger ones for years.
Never had to adjust them and never as yet had a duff joint. IIRC the
ones you do have to adjust are these way outside the realm of DIY
applications!...

Possibly the worst fault is over crimping the joint as that weakens it
but it may not pull out of the connector when you test it.

--
Tony Sayer

In article , Vir Campestris vir.campest
lid scribeth thus
On 01/01/2014 14:23, tony sayer wrote:
Crimps are fine used them for years on many differing projects currents
cables and voltages and never a problem. However do use decent ratchet
crimpers like this,

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p11261

But NOT like these useless ones;!..

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Hand...%20Tools/Crimp
ing%20Pliers/d10/sd170/p82229
--
Having just put a couple of crimps on with a pair just like the latter -
they need a bit of welly on the squeeze, but the crimp didn't want to
come off. What's the problem with them?

Andy

They don't put sufficient overall "size" pressure on the crimp ..

When crimped as they oughta be its a sort of cold weld..
--
Tony Sayer

On 01/01/2014 17:41, tony sayer wrote:
In article om,
dennis@home scribeth thus
On 01/01/2014 14:23, tony sayer wrote:
In article , Lobster
scribeth thus
On 30 Dec 2013, DerbyBorn grunted in
.236:

A friend (some years ago) managed to drill through a ring main cable
in his kitchen. An electrician fitted a box and blanking cover and
re-wired the section down to a socket that was fed by this damaged
cable.

He would like to do away with the blanking plate as he wants to
position a cupboard that will be half over where the blanking plate is
and do some tiling.

I seem to recall that properly crimped connections are permitted - and
that these can be buried in plaster (with a bit of protection).

Can someone point me to the authoritative information on this? He will
be using an electrician - but wants to instruct the work correctly as
one electrican has already wanted to re-wire back to another room and
the disruption is not considered worthwhile.

I had a similar problem myself a few years back when I had to get an
electrician (NICEIC qualified, etc) in to sort out a wiring problem,
which turned out to have been caused by a previous occupier of the house
having put a picture hook through a buried cable. Regardless of what I
tried to say about the regs, he was adamant that crimping/soldering etc
was unacceptable and the whole cable run had to be replaced (which, to
be fair, he managed to do very effectively).

You might find similar... possibly worth asking the question over the
phone as a hypothetical before engaging a particular electrician.

(One thing I've learned over the years is that however tactfully it's
done, tradesmen do not like having a layman telling them about
regulations...!)



Crimps are fine used them for years on many differing projects currents
cables and voltages and never a problem. However do use decent ratchet
crimpers like this,

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p11261

But NOT like these useless ones;!..

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Hand...%20Tools/Crimp
ing%20Pliers/d10/sd170/p82229


Ratchet crimpers are only better if they are adjusted correctly.
They can produce a poor joint if they aren't adjusted correctly.
The correct setting depends on the wire size and they are unlikely to be
perfect out of the box.

You can also produce a perfectly fine joint using non ratchet tools if
you know what you are doing.


Dennis.. Used that type and some very slightly larger ones for years.
Never had to adjust them and never as yet had a duff joint. IIRC the
ones you do have to adjust are these way outside the realm of DIY
applications!...

You can adjust the tool station one.

In article , tony sayer
writes
In article , Vir Campestris vir.campest
scribeth thus
On 01/01/2014 14:23, tony sayer wrote:
Crimps are fine used them for years on many differing projects currents
cables and voltages and never a problem. However do use decent ratchet
crimpers like this,

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p11261

But NOT like these useless ones;!..

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Hand...%20Tools/Crimp
ing%20Pliers/d10/sd170/p82229
--
Having just put a couple of crimps on with a pair just like the latter -
they need a bit of welly on the squeeze, but the crimp didn't want to
come off. What's the problem with them?

Andy

They don't put sufficient overall "size" pressure on the crimp ..

And because you never know whether the pressure applied on a non ratchet
tool has been enough to complete a proper joint. If not then you don't
get a gas tight joint and don't find out until it goes high resistance
later (thro' looseness or corrosion) and the joint or the loop
overheats.

--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

In article , fred scribeth thus
In article , tony sayer
writes
In article , Vir Campestris vir.campest
scribeth thus
On 01/01/2014 14:23, tony sayer wrote:
Crimps are fine used them for years on many differing projects currents
cables and voltages and never a problem. However do use decent ratchet
crimpers like this,

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p11261

But NOT like these useless ones;!..

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Hand...%20Tools/Crimp
ing%20Pliers/d10/sd170/p82229
--
Having just put a couple of crimps on with a pair just like the latter -
they need a bit of welly on the squeeze, but the crimp didn't want to
come off. What's the problem with them?

Andy

They don't put sufficient overall "size" pressure on the crimp ..

And because you never know whether the pressure applied on a non ratchet
tool has been enough to complete a proper joint. If not then you don't
get a gas tight joint and don't find out until it goes high resistance
later (thro' looseness or corrosion) and the joint or the loop
overheats.


Precisely, couldn't have put it better myself..
--
Tony Sayer

On 01/01/2014 22:20, fred wrote:
In article , tony sayer
writes
In article , Vir Campestris vir.campest
lid scribeth thus
On 01/01/2014 14:23, tony sayer wrote:
Crimps are fine used them for years on many differing projects currents
cables and voltages and never a problem. However do use decent ratchet
crimpers like this,

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p11261

But NOT like these useless ones;!..

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Hand...%20Tools/Crimp

ing%20Pliers/d10/sd170/p82229
--
Having just put a couple of crimps on with a pair just like the latter -
they need a bit of welly on the squeeze, but the crimp didn't want to
come off. What's the problem with them?

Andy

They don't put sufficient overall "size" pressure on the crimp ..

And because you never know whether the pressure applied on a non ratchet
tool has been enough to complete a proper joint. If not then you don't
get a gas tight joint and don't find out until it goes high resistance
later (thro' looseness or corrosion) and the joint or the loop overheats.


"a gas tight joint". Interesting. That phrase is used in the blurb for
Wago connectors as well.

It clearly communicates the meaning, but how did 'gas tight' become
applied to electrical connections?



--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

The Medway Handyman wrote:

"a gas tight joint". Interesting. That phrase is used in the blurb for
Wago connectors as well.

It clearly communicates the meaning, but how did 'gas tight' become
applied to electrical connections?

Probably started with wire-wrapping tools from the 50's onward, where
wire is wrapped tightly round a square-edged post so that the copper is
'crushed' onto the corners and you get a direct metal to metal seal that
is indeed gas tight, so won't oxidise.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/23/PDP-8I-backplane.jpg/800px-PDP-8I-backplane.jpg

In article , Andy
Burns writes
The Medway Handyman wrote:

"a gas tight joint". Interesting. That phrase is used in the blurb for
Wago connectors as well.

It clearly communicates the meaning, but how did 'gas tight' become
applied to electrical connections?

Probably started with wire-wrapping tools from the 50's onward, where
wire is wrapped tightly round a square-edged post so that the copper is
'crushed' onto the corners and you get a direct metal to metal seal that
is indeed gas tight, so won't oxidise.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...b/2/23/PDP-8I-
backplane.jpg/800px-PDP-8I-backplane.jpg

That's certainly where I picked up the term.

--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

In article ,
Lobster wrote:
I had a similar problem myself a few years back when I had to get an
electrician (NICEIC qualified, etc) in to sort out a wiring problem,
which turned out to have been caused by a previous occupier of the house
having put a picture hook through a buried cable. Regardless of what I
tried to say about the regs, he was adamant that crimping/soldering etc
was unacceptable and the whole cable run had to be replaced (which, to
be fair, he managed to do very effectively).

I'd say it was right to do this since it was obviously possible. A crimp
etc repair should only be used if it isn't practical to replace the
section. In your case this might have meant two lots of crimps to replace
the damaged section of cable.

--
*Many hamsters only blink one eye at a time *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Lobster writes:
(One thing I've learned over the years is that however tactfully it's
done, tradesmen do not like having a layman telling them about
regulations...!)

Lots don't actually know the regs, and certainly wouldn't understand
the reasons many of the regs exist. They know only what someone else
has told them whilst they were training. When I did my BS7671 training,
the folks on the course for the second and third times were all
electricians who had failed it one or more times beforehand. That
doesn't apply to all electricians of course, but there are quite a
number of practising electrians who have failed their BS7671 several
times and stand no chance of ever passing.

Furthermore, if the guy has never done crimping and/or doesn't have
the right kit, then it's probably not a good idea to force it on him.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]