On 21/10/2013 14:54, Huge wrote:
On 2013-10-21, Onetap wrote:

BG once stiffed me

They shafted us when we moved in here, 21 years ago. It still rankles, and
they'll never be getting another penny from me.

Along with WH Smith, Midland Expressway Ltd. (M6 Toll) and Pickfords.

What did the M6 toll people do?

(not something I'm ever likely to use, just wondering)

On 21/10/2013 15:27, John Rumm wrote:
On 21/10/2013 10:41, Fredxx wrote:
On 21/10/2013 09:37, John Rumm wrote:
On 20/10/2013 23:58, Onetap wrote:
On Sunday, October 20, 2013 8:29:01 PM UTC+1, Adrian wrote:

Seems to me that the question was about the legal, rather than
technical,

ability to do the work - so there's no inferences about competence
to be

drawn.

And the answer was about the legal requirements; the Gas Safety
Regulations (can't be arsed to look up the exact wording) requires
only that
you must be competent to do the work.
If he has to ask about the legal issues, it suggests it's not
something he has done before.

The legislation:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1.../contents/made

The relevant section:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1...ulation/3/made

Notes:

Where the phrase "class of persons approved for the time being by the
Health and Safety Executive" means GasSafe member.

"Competent" is not defined in the legislation.

Are you reading the same place as me??

PART BGAS FITTINGS – GENERAL PROVISIONS
Qualification and supervision

3. (1) No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting
or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so.


Yes... it uses the word "competent" without defining it elsewhere in the
statute.


Yes - I missed your point!! :-O

On 21/10/2013 17:05, Onetap wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2013 3:27:04 PM UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:

Yes... it uses the word "competent" without defining it elsewhere
in the

statute.

Not as a definition of the word. However, 3 (3) has a requirement for
employed or self-employed gas fitters to be a ".....a member of a
class of persons approved for the time being by the Health and Safety
Executive".

The approved class of persons was Corgi and is now GasSafe. You need
to pass their tests to join, which is a demonstration of competence.

3 (3) above and the "class of persons" criteria applies only to
employers. employees and the self-employed.

Clause 3.(1) applies to everyone, including DIYers; ( No person
shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting
............unless he is competent to do so).

Correct, DIYers can be competant.

The DIYers cannot take the ACS-type tests to demonstrate how
competent or incompetent they are because Corgi and GasSafe won't
allow them to take the tests.

If it was important for safety, these tests would be made available to
all and sundry to determines one's own competence.

On 21/10/2013 14:17, Onetap wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2013 10:44:39 AM UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:

Only if you are being paid, or there are tennents renting the

property.





Yes if paid, no if your not, including if not paid in rented property.



The obvious exception regarding the gas safety cert.

Not so.

There was a case in which a landlord had installed a gas appliance in one of his rented-out flats (second-hand gas fire ISTR). There was an accident.
It was argued he hadn't been paid, and did not have to be Corgi/Gas Safe.

M'lud ruled he was paid by the collection of the rents and should not have done his own gas work.


Please cite, as its the first I have heard of this. The only exceptions
might be where the landlord is truly incompetent.

On 21/10/2013 18:25, Fredxx wrote:
On 21/10/2013 17:05, Onetap wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2013 3:27:04 PM UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:

Yes... it uses the word "competent" without defining it elsewhere
in the

statute.

Not as a definition of the word. However, 3 (3) has a requirement for
employed or self-employed gas fitters to be a ".....a member of a
class of persons approved for the time being by the Health and Safety
Executive".

The approved class of persons was Corgi and is now GasSafe. You need
to pass their tests to join, which is a demonstration of competence.

3 (3) above and the "class of persons" criteria applies only to
employers. employees and the self-employed.

Clause 3.(1) applies to everyone, including DIYers; ( No person
shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting
............unless he is competent to do so).

Correct, DIYers can be competant.

The DIYers cannot take the ACS-type tests to demonstrate how
competent or incompetent they are because Corgi and GasSafe won't
allow them to take the tests.

If it was important for safety, these tests would be made available to
all and sundry to determines one's own competence.

They are! Anyone can do the training and take the exams if they wish to
do so.

--
Peter Crosland

On 21/10/2013 14:12, Terry Fields wrote:
Peter Crosland wrote:

On 21/10/2013 11:52, Terry Fields wrote:
Martin Brown wrote:

There was one near me where the guy installed his own bottle gas fired
central heating system. It worked OK for a few weeks and then one
afternoon fortunately with no one at home at 4pm detonated the entire
house and left a blackened roofless shell by the time the fire brigade
arrived. The source of the blaze wasn't hard to figure out. Insurers
said "show us the gas installation certificate" - and then get lost.

Was the certificate requirement a part of the insurance contract?

Mine is silent on the subject.

There is a general presumption in contracts of insurance that you will
take reasonable care to do work properly. Insurers are not keen to pay
out when the insured has been negligent.

That brings us back to the 'competence' problem of not being defined.
Just because a building blows up it doesn't provably mean that
anything about the installation process was incompetent or negligent.
Boilers, etc, carry warranties for this reason.

After I had my previous system installed, a leak developed in the
joint on the supply side of the meter, which the installers hadn't
touched. Buildings blow up for reasons other than lack of competence.

Of course not but that is not the point. Anything burning has an
inherent risk of danger. Explosion is only one of the potential dangers
that can occur by incompetent work. There are far more common risk of
poor combustion is CO poisoning. Do you think it is acceptable to put
people's lives at risk by trying to save a few pounds?

--
Peter Crosland

In article ,
Peter Crosland wrote:
Of course not but that is not the point. Anything burning has an
inherent risk of danger. Explosion is only one of the potential dangers
that can occur by incompetent work. There are far more common risk of
poor combustion is CO poisoning. Do you think it is acceptable to put
people's lives at risk by trying to save a few pounds?

Wonder how many open flue boilers are still around? 5% of the total?

--
*You can't teach an old mouse new clicks *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

I had to redo a gas fire installed by Eastern Gas (as was).
It was in a fireplace and replaced a radiant gas fire.
They connected it to the restrictor on the hearth, and it
worked OK whilst they were there. Some time later, I found
that after a long time, it would trip off. The cause was
that when the main burner lit, the gas pressure dropped
and the pilot light was very marginal on the thermocouple.
(It predates oxygen depletion sensors, or that would be
the first suspicion). Anyway, the cause was that there was
too much thin (gaslamp) pipework en route, reducing the gas
pressure. Eventually I replaced the gas pipe from the meter
for other reasons (disconnecting the gaslamp pipework) and
it got a new feed from the new pipework, and worked fine.

At 6kW input, and now being only decorative (originally it
was that room's heating but I subsequently installed central
heating), I can't really afford to turn it on anymore - the
boiler modulated down to 7.5kW can heat the whole house!

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 21/10/2013 19:01, Peter Crosland wrote:

That brings us back to the 'competence' problem of not being defined.
Just because a building blows up it doesn't provably mean that
anything about the installation process was incompetent or negligent.
Boilers, etc, carry warranties for this reason.

After I had my previous system installed, a leak developed in the
joint on the supply side of the meter, which the installers hadn't
touched. Buildings blow up for reasons other than lack of competence.

Of course not but that is not the point. Anything burning has an
inherent risk of danger. Explosion is only one of the potential dangers
that can occur by incompetent work. There are far more common risk of
poor combustion is CO poisoning. Do you think it is acceptable to put
people's lives at risk by trying to save a few pounds?

Which is the higher risk : DIY done competently or professional done
incompetently? There's plenty of examples of the latter in this thread.

This stuff isn't magic. It's entirely feasible for somebody to DIY stuff
competently.

On Monday 21 October 2013 16:23 John Rumm wrote in uk.d-i-y:


I have sometimes seen them do it, but I have never seen one test the
test point with leak detector after replacing the screw!



I did.

Thus validating John's point.

All this for capping off *outside* - but I wanted to be sure...

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

On Monday 21 October 2013 19:33 Andrew Gabriel wrote in uk.d-i-y:

I had to redo a gas fire installed by Eastern Gas (as was).
It was in a fireplace and replaced a radiant gas fire.
They connected it to the restrictor on the hearth, and it
worked OK whilst they were there. Some time later, I found
that after a long time, it would trip off. The cause was
that when the main burner lit, the gas pressure dropped
and the pilot light was very marginal on the thermocouple.
(It predates oxygen depletion sensors, or that would be
the first suspicion). Anyway, the cause was that there was
too much thin (gaslamp) pipework en route, reducing the gas
pressure. Eventually I replaced the gas pipe from the meter
for other reasons (disconnecting the gaslamp pipework) and
it got a new feed from the new pipework, and worked fine.

To all the nay sayers - it seems that there are more specific citations of
card carrying professionals being sloppy and dangerous, than there are DIY
efforts.

Interesting...

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

On 21/10/2013 12:38, Rick Hughes wrote:


When I sold my house ..... I was asked to provide the certificate

We were asked if we had one. We said no. End of conversation.

(they did buy it, and I have no idea if they had it checked)

Andy

On Mon, 21 Oct 2013 10:05:37 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

On Monday 21 October 2013 09:32 PeterC wrote in uk.d-i-y:


In the first few seconds he says that having a boiler serviced every 12
months is a legal requirement. Is this so for private (not rented)
property?

Er no...

Rented properties need a gas safty cert every year - not sure that implies
they need servicing, but it's easier to book it in as one job unless you
want to be woken at 6am by a narked tenant with a cold shower!

IRTA naked tenant.
http://www.nakedtenant.co.uk/

--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%

On 21/10/2013 21:24, Tim Watts wrote:

To all the nay sayers - it seems that there are more specific citations of
card carrying professionals being sloppy and dangerous, than there are DIY
efforts.

Interesting...

It's not entirely surprising. I'd expect the vast majority of gas work
to be done by pros, so one would see many more examples.

I wonder what the proportion of competent vs incompetent DIY is - and of
that latter part, how much is obviously incompetent and how much is
detail where they've tried to do it right but cocked up.

My plumbing anecdote is from our CH install where a friend did the
radiators + pipework and left pipe ends for the stove to be installed.
Cue giggling from the fitters "ah, it'll be crap" - till they looked at
it, at which point they went quiet. Their joints were worse.

In article ,
Clive George writes:
On 21/10/2013 21:24, Tim Watts wrote:

To all the nay sayers - it seems that there are more specific citations of
card carrying professionals being sloppy and dangerous, than there are DIY
efforts.

Interesting...

It's not entirely surprising. I'd expect the vast majority of gas work
to be done by pros, so one would see many more examples.

I wonder what the proportion of competent vs incompetent DIY is - and of
that latter part, how much is obviously incompetent and how much is
detail where they've tried to do it right but cocked up.

My plumbing anecdote is from our CH install where a friend did the
radiators + pipework and left pipe ends for the stove to be installed.
Cue giggling from the fitters "ah, it'll be crap" - till they looked at
it, at which point they went quiet. Their joints were worse.

When I installed my central heating, I pressure tested each section
of radiator plumbing, similarly to how you check for leaks in gas
pipework. So I knew it had no leaks. Except, when it was all finally
connected together, there was a leak. I had a few sets of full-bore
isolation valves in the system, so I could narrow it down. Eventually
I found it - it was inside the boiler and not in my plumbing at all.
The drain cock leaked where it screwed into a brass casting. Easily
fixed by removal and replacement of the PTFE tape on its thread.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 21/10/2013 21:17, Clive George wrote:
On 21/10/2013 19:01, Peter Crosland wrote:

That brings us back to the 'competence' problem of not being defined.
Just because a building blows up it doesn't provably mean that
anything about the installation process was incompetent or negligent.
Boilers, etc, carry warranties for this reason.

After I had my previous system installed, a leak developed in the
joint on the supply side of the meter, which the installers hadn't
touched. Buildings blow up for reasons other than lack of competence.

Of course not but that is not the point. Anything burning has an
inherent risk of danger. Explosion is only one of the potential dangers
that can occur by incompetent work. There are far more common risk of
poor combustion is CO poisoning. Do you think it is acceptable to put
people's lives at risk by trying to save a few pounds?

Which is the higher risk : DIY done competently or professional done
incompetently? There's plenty of examples of the latter in this thread.

This stuff isn't magic. It's entirely feasible for somebody to DIY stuff
competently.

I have never suggested otherwise. In the case of the OP the way he
phrased his question suggested he lacked the necessary expertise. The
rule really is if in doubt don't. As for risk that is an impossible
answer to give a statistically valid answer to. Having said that no
system is perfect and we only tend to hear about the disasters
regardless of who caused them. Logic would support the view that a
properly trained person who does a job diligently is much more likely to
do the job competently than an untrained over confident person.


--
Peter Crosland

On 21/10/2013 10:21, chris French wrote:
In message , Roger Mills
writes
On 20/10/2013 21:58, Rick Hughes wrote:
On 20/10/2013 19:42, Jon Parker wrote:
Hello folks,

How much (if any) buggering about is one allowed to do to one's own
gas boiler?

None unless rated as competent ... which currently means GasSafe
registered


That might apply if you're doing it for someone else for reward - but
not if you're doing it for yourself. In my book, "competent" means
that you know what you're doing - *not* that you've got some
meaningless piece of paper.


Yes, thing is of course that competent in this context has never been
really legally defined.

If you do it right, no one will ever know. If you do it really wrong and
there is big bang they will, but they aren't going to be bothered about
ascertain your competence at that point.



The problem is, if a house caught fire / exploded .... and you had
worked on the gas, and you hold no formal gas qualifications ... be
pretty difficult to prove competency.

On 21/10/2013 15:41, John Rumm wrote:
On 21/10/2013 14:03, Terry Fields wrote:
Rick Hughes wrote:

On 20/10/2013 23:14, Graham. wrote:
On Sun, 20 Oct 2013 21:58:55 +0100, Rick Hughes
wrote:

On 20/10/2013 19:42, Jon Parker wrote:
Hello folks,

How much (if any) buggering about is one allowed to do to one's
own gas boiler?

None unless rated as competent ... which currently means GasSafe
registered

Only if you are being paid, or there are tennents renting the
property.

When I sold my house ..... I was asked to provide the certificate

When I was selling my house, I was asked if gas and electricity works
were certificated. I ticked the No box, and that was that. House
sold.

Yup same here.


I was asked to provide the certificates

On 21/10/2013 08:25, Tim Watts wrote:
On Sunday 20 October 2013 21:58 Rick Hughes wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On 20/10/2013 19:42, Jon Parker wrote:
Hello folks,

How much (if any) buggering about is one allowed to do to one's own gas
boiler?

None unless rated as competent ... which currently means GasSafe
registered

There is nothing in law that says being a GasSafe member is the sole method
of demonstrating competance.

Have seen the work of a couple of CORGI fitters in particular, I'd trust me
more.



But it is one of the accepted ways of proving competence if required.

same way an Electrician can use NICEIC registration.

On 21/10/2013 16:06, John Rumm wrote:
On 21/10/2013 12:40, Rick Hughes wrote:
On 21/10/2013 09:40, John Rumm wrote:
On 20/10/2013 21:58, Rick Hughes wrote:
On 20/10/2013 19:42, Jon Parker wrote:
Hello folks,

How much (if any) buggering about is one allowed to do to one's own
gas boiler?

None unless rated as competent ... which currently means GasSafe
registered

That does not appear to be the case. If you read the wording you will
note that "class of persons approved for the time being by the Health
and Safety Executive" and competent are used quite separately.


Who is going to rate your competence? .... yourself.

Its a separate but valid question. One would hope that Gas Safe do
actually check the qualifications of professional fitters wishing to
join. However one can hold the relevant exam passes, and not be a member
of Gas Safe.

As to demonstration, how about pointing at the relevant C&G or ACS
installer certificates?

How about directing someone to the Gas Safe registered individual under
who's supervision you worked?

How about pointing to a long history of competent work carried out etc?

Ultimately, when doing work for yourself, the person that you need to
convince of competence is yourself - and you need to do that in a
informed way[1]. The price you pay for being wrong is potentially far
higher than for a professional who gets to leave and go home when his
work is done.


[1] i.e. avoiding the "ill informed and unaware" trap of not knowing
what you don't know.

So as a baseline, tracking down and reading and understanding the
relevant British Standard docs pertaining to what you want to do (e.g.
BS6891, 5440-2, then 6798 for boilers, 6172 for hobs, 5871 for fires
etc) would be a start.

Grabbing a copy of Tolly's books etc.

Add to that enough practical experience to know without doubt that you
can make decent work of pipework.




My concern would be that would become irrelevant if it went wrong, they
would say you were not certified to do the work ... and professional
body certification is the accepted way of proving competence.

Also disagree with logic "Ultimately, when doing work for yourself, the
person that you need to convince of competence is yourself " at some
point someone else may own that house and therefore your work is then no
longer for yourself.

Your standards don't count .... it's what is the accepted standards ...
eg GasSafe & Corgi registrtaion.

On 21/10/2013 13:41, Terry Fields wrote:
Rick Hughes wrote:

On 20/10/2013 22:01, Adrian wrote:
On Sun, 20 Oct 2013 21:58:55 +0100, Rick Hughes wrote:

How much (if any) buggering about is one allowed to do to one's own gas
boiler?

None unless rated as competent ... which currently means GasSafe
registered

No, it doesn't.

So how do you prove competence without it.

Since there is no standard for 'competence' - it not having been
defined legally - one cannot 'prove' one meets it.



But there are accepted standard of professional certification .... that
would meet requirements.

On 21/10/2013 13:19, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Rick Hughes wrote:
I installed my own heating system, and once complete I had an inspection
and a Gas Safety Certificate issued (in fact Building Regs Inspector
asked to see it)

I now have it under annual maintenance by a gas Safe roistered
maintenance company (SWALEC)

Have you money to burn - or did you use the cheapest possible crap when
self installing?

Don't understand the question ?

I installed it, to a professional design, and it works fine.

I have maintenance contract as I travel extensively on business .. and I
want 24 x 7 call out .....to cover family.
Took it out as soon as warranty expired.


Same way I have house buildings & contents insurance - I built the house
..... still have insurance.

On 21/10/2013 21:28, Graham. wrote:
On Mon, 21 Oct 2013 10:05:37 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

On Monday 21 October 2013 09:32 PeterC wrote in uk.d-i-y:


In the first few seconds he says that having a boiler serviced every 12
months is a legal requirement. Is this so for private (not rented)
property?

Er no...

Rented properties need a gas safty cert every year - not sure that implies
they need servicing, but it's easier to book it in as one job unless you
want to be woken at 6am by a narked tenant with a cold shower!

IRTA naked tenant.

oops, so did I ;-)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 21/10/2013 19:01, Peter Crosland wrote:
On 21/10/2013 14:12, Terry Fields wrote:
Peter Crosland wrote:

On 21/10/2013 11:52, Terry Fields wrote:
Martin Brown wrote:

There was one near me where the guy installed his own bottle gas fired
central heating system. It worked OK for a few weeks and then one
afternoon fortunately with no one at home at 4pm detonated the entire
house and left a blackened roofless shell by the time the fire brigade
arrived. The source of the blaze wasn't hard to figure out. Insurers
said "show us the gas installation certificate" - and then get lost.

Was the certificate requirement a part of the insurance contract?

Mine is silent on the subject.

There is a general presumption in contracts of insurance that you will
take reasonable care to do work properly. Insurers are not keen to pay
out when the insured has been negligent.

That brings us back to the 'competence' problem of not being defined.
Just because a building blows up it doesn't provably mean that
anything about the installation process was incompetent or negligent.
Boilers, etc, carry warranties for this reason.

After I had my previous system installed, a leak developed in the
joint on the supply side of the meter, which the installers hadn't
touched. Buildings blow up for reasons other than lack of competence.

Of course not but that is not the point. Anything burning has an
inherent risk of danger. Explosion is only one of the potential dangers
that can occur by incompetent work. There are far more common risk of
poor combustion is CO poisoning. Do you think it is acceptable to put
people's lives at risk by trying to save a few pounds?

Alternatively one could ask if you think it is acceptable potentially
putting people's lives at risk by employing someone of indeterminate
skill, when you know you can do the job properly yourself?

The irony being that one is only really be in a position to assess the
quality of the work being done by the professional if one is also
sufficiently educated in the subject matter.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 21/10/2013 22:25, Peter Crosland wrote:

Logic would support the view that a
properly trained person who does a job diligently is much more likely to
do the job competently than an untrained over confident person.

Who is more likely to do a job diligently, a DIYer or a pro with time
constraints?

On 22/10/2013 00:15, Rick Hughes wrote:
On 21/10/2013 15:41, John Rumm wrote:
On 21/10/2013 14:03, Terry Fields wrote:
Rick Hughes wrote:

On 20/10/2013 23:14, Graham. wrote:
On Sun, 20 Oct 2013 21:58:55 +0100, Rick Hughes
wrote:

On 20/10/2013 19:42, Jon Parker wrote:
Hello folks,

How much (if any) buggering about is one allowed to do to one's
own gas boiler?

None unless rated as competent ... which currently means GasSafe
registered

Only if you are being paid, or there are tennents renting the
property.

When I sold my house ..... I was asked to provide the certificate

When I was selling my house, I was asked if gas and electricity works
were certificated. I ticked the No box, and that was that. House
sold.

Yup same here.


I was asked to provide the certificates

Presumably after ticking the box indicating you had them?

In my case there was a general query about availability of certificates
(gas, electrical, and fensa) etc, service history, and the the age of
the boiler.

I told them that there were no certificates available for the electrical
work (done for my loft conversion) since it was done by me prior to part
P. That the boiler was self installed and hence there was none for that
beyond the records in the benchmark book, but that there was a receipt
for a service on it carried out later. I also suggested that if they
wanted further tests etc carried out then they were welcome to arrange
them at their own expense. Needless to say nothing further was heard on
the topic.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 22/10/2013 00:25, Rick Hughes wrote:

My concern would be that would become irrelevant if it went wrong, they
would say you were not certified to do the work ... and professional
body certification is the accepted way of proving competence.

I've done a smidge of gas work, and it's not gone wrong. I made sure it
wouldn't by testing it - I didn't want to just guess.

As I said to Peter, this stuff isn't magic. It's not that hard to do
appropriate testing to demonstrate that it's not going to go wrong as a
result of what you've done.

Also disagree with logic "Ultimately, when doing work for yourself, the
person that you need to convince of competence is yourself " at some
point someone else may own that house and therefore your work is then no
longer for yourself.

Their problem. When buying a house you take on all the crap which comes
with it - and get professional advice if you're worried.

Your standards don't count .... it's what is the accepted standards ...
eg GasSafe & Corgi registrtaion.

It appears that the certification isn't required on selling a house, ie
it doesn't matter whose standards one is using.

On 22/10/2013 00:25, Rick Hughes wrote:
On 21/10/2013 16:06, John Rumm wrote:
On 21/10/2013 12:40, Rick Hughes wrote:
On 21/10/2013 09:40, John Rumm wrote:
On 20/10/2013 21:58, Rick Hughes wrote:
On 20/10/2013 19:42, Jon Parker wrote:
Hello folks,

How much (if any) buggering about is one allowed to do to one's own
gas boiler?

None unless rated as competent ... which currently means GasSafe
registered

That does not appear to be the case. If you read the wording you will
note that "class of persons approved for the time being by the Health
and Safety Executive" and competent are used quite separately.


Who is going to rate your competence? .... yourself.

Its a separate but valid question. One would hope that Gas Safe do
actually check the qualifications of professional fitters wishing to
join. However one can hold the relevant exam passes, and not be a member
of Gas Safe.

As to demonstration, how about pointing at the relevant C&G or ACS
installer certificates?

How about directing someone to the Gas Safe registered individual under
who's supervision you worked?

How about pointing to a long history of competent work carried out etc?

Ultimately, when doing work for yourself, the person that you need to
convince of competence is yourself - and you need to do that in a
informed way[1]. The price you pay for being wrong is potentially far
higher than for a professional who gets to leave and go home when his
work is done.


[1] i.e. avoiding the "ill informed and unaware" trap of not knowing
what you don't know.

So as a baseline, tracking down and reading and understanding the
relevant British Standard docs pertaining to what you want to do (e.g.
BS6891, 5440-2, then 6798 for boilers, 6172 for hobs, 5871 for fires
etc) would be a start.

Grabbing a copy of Tolly's books etc.

Add to that enough practical experience to know without doubt that you
can make decent work of pipework.


My concern would be that would become irrelevant if it went wrong, they
would say you were not certified to do the work ... and professional
body certification is the accepted way of proving competence.

Perhaps. Although if it done correctly, going wrong is not really a
concern. I accept the point that if something unrelated and beyond your
control goes wrong, then you will invite more scrutiny if you have also
had your fingers in the box so to speak.

The obvious answer is that for anyone not comfortable doing the work, or
with what they see as the potential problems, then don't do it.

Also disagree with logic "Ultimately, when doing work for yourself, the
person that you need to convince of competence is yourself " at some
point someone else may own that house and therefore your work is then no
longer for yourself.

The point I was making was that I care less about blowing up a future
owner of the house than I do the current owner and his family (no
disrespect to any future owner - but it is personal!). Hence any work I
DIY must be to an acceptable standard. If I can't satisfy myself that I
can do a job properly then I would rather not do it.

Your standards don't count .... it's what is the accepted standards ...
eg GasSafe & Corgi registrtaion.

I don't think you can make a blanket statement that just because the guy
has a trade body membership card, his work will automatically be to an
acceptable standard. Don't get me wrong - I am not suggesting that all
registered fitters are not up to scratch - I have seen many who turn out
first class quality work, and are diligent in the process. However I
have also seen some who are according to the paperwork they carry, safe
to do the work, but in reality are clueless, slapdash and a liability.

--
Cheers,

John.

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\================================================= ================/

On 21/10/2013 21:24, Tim Watts wrote:
On Monday 21 October 2013 19:33 Andrew Gabriel wrote in uk.d-i-y:

I had to redo a gas fire installed by Eastern Gas (as was).
It was in a fireplace and replaced a radiant gas fire.
They connected it to the restrictor on the hearth, and it
worked OK whilst they were there. Some time later, I found
that after a long time, it would trip off. The cause was
that when the main burner lit, the gas pressure dropped
and the pilot light was very marginal on the thermocouple.
(It predates oxygen depletion sensors, or that would be
the first suspicion). Anyway, the cause was that there was
too much thin (gaslamp) pipework en route, reducing the gas
pressure. Eventually I replaced the gas pipe from the meter
for other reasons (disconnecting the gaslamp pipework) and
it got a new feed from the new pipework, and worked fine.

To all the nay sayers - it seems that there are more specific citations of
card carrying professionals being sloppy and dangerous, than there are DIY
efforts.

Interesting...

Although we are a self selecting group - so its probably less likely
that those who have done poor work will seek out this opportunity to
brag about it ;-)

I also get the impression that "most people" are content with the
mindset that you "can't DIY gas" and hence leave it to the pros, so
there is relatively little DIY work to actually observe, and even when
one is observing it, one may not be aware of its origins.

Of those that will do some work, there is obviously a range of tasks in
what is considered DIYable. I can't see many practical and technically
minded people objecting to replacing a thermocouple on an old boiler, or
brushing / vacuum the crud out of a (traditional) heat exchanger.
However they may stop short of fitting the whole thing or carrying out
more complicated jobs.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Onetap wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2013 9:32:23 AM UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 20/10/2013 19:56, Onetap wrote:

On Sunday, October 20, 2013 7:42:47 PM UTC+1, Jon Parker wrote:

Hello folks,







How much (if any) buggering about is one allowed to do to one's own gas boiler?



You must be competent to do the work.

Asking on a DIY forum would suggest that you're not.



This kind of answer tends to get on my tits a bit...



Even if we ignore the basic point that one of the ways we gain

competence to do anything is by asking sensible questions. The question

was not "am I competent". but "am I allowed"...

There's no point in having a paddy at me about it, I just told him what the law says, and for which you've kindly posted the relevant statutes.

Was I wrong?

The law only requires one to be competent.
So, the question is, is he competent if he has never done the job before?

Every single competant person started out not having done this job before.
I work on the principal that if someone else can do it I can.

A recent instance ,I am not a mechanic, I am not an air con technition,
but I just replaced the condensor in a 316i BMW including the vacuum and
then regas which is not for the faint hearted.
Just look at this mess.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9clefzv645t4g8z/bmw%20007.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1aep9eima1qbp34/bmw%20055.jpg

It is all back together and working now, but working on your outlook on
DIY I should not have attempted it.


It is akin to doing a car repair equipped with a Haynes book; you only know if it was within your abilities if you complete it without cocking it up.

If there is a subsequent gas leak or explosion that can be traced to defective workmanship, then he wasn't competent.

Rick Hughes wrote:

On 21/10/2013 10:21, chris French wrote:

Yes, thing is of course that competent in this context has never been
really legally defined.

If you do it right, no one will ever know. If you do it really wrong and
there is big bang they will, but they aren't going to be bothered about
ascertain your competence at that point.

The problem is, if a house caught fire / exploded .... and you had
worked on the gas, and you hold no formal gas qualifications ... be
pretty difficult to prove competency.

As the PP said, there is no legal definition of competence in this
context. Holding 'formal gas qualifications' *might* meet a legal
definition, if that was ever tested in court. At present, that doesn't
seem to be the case.

Remember, we are answering the OP's question about DIY-ing on his own
gas installation, which is a different issue to that of paid-for work.


--
Terry Fields

On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 3:38:29 AM UTC+1, F Murtz wrote:
Onetap wrote:

On Monday, October 21, 2013 9:32:23 AM UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:

On 20/10/2013 19:56, Onetap wrote:



On Sunday, October 20, 2013 7:42:47 PM UTC+1, Jon Parker wrote:



Hello folks,















How much (if any) buggering about is one allowed to do to one's own gas boiler?







You must be competent to do the work.



Asking on a DIY forum would suggest that you're not.







This kind of answer tends to get on my tits a bit...







Even if we ignore the basic point that one of the ways we gain



competence to do anything is by asking sensible questions. The question



was not "am I competent". but "am I allowed"...



There's no point in having a paddy at me about it, I just told him what the law says, and for which you've kindly posted the relevant statutes.



Was I wrong?



The law only requires one to be competent.

So, the question is, is he competent if he has never done the job before?



Every single competant person started out not having done this job before.

I work on the principal that if someone else can do it I can.



A recent instance ,I am not a mechanic, I am not an air con technition,

but I just replaced the condensor in a 316i BMW including the vacuum and

then regas which is not for the faint hearted.

Just look at this mess.



https://www.dropbox.com/s/9clefzv645t4g8z/bmw%20007.jpg

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1aep9eima1qbp34/bmw%20055.jpg



It is all back together and working now, but working on your outlook on

DIY I should not have attempted it.

Nope.
I've just reported what the legal requirements are.
They are solely that you should be competent.

I've serviced my own gas appliances, I think the work was completed competently.
I don't have a flue gas analyser, I'm not CORGI.
I have a deeply ingrained distrust of those that are and, for that matter, of all car mechanics. IMHO there is a tradition of institutional dishonesty in both trades.

On Monday, October 21, 2013 6:28:42 PM UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:

Please cite, as its the first I have heard of this. The only exceptions

might be where the landlord is truly incompetent.

Please cite?
Are you having a laugh?
Go and google it. I've given you enough information.

The case happened as described, about 4 or 5 years back I'd think.

Fredxx put finger to keyboard:

On 21/10/2013 17:05, Onetap wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2013 3:27:04 PM UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:

Yes... it uses the word "competent" without defining it elsewhere in
the

statute.

Not as a definition of the word. However, 3 (3) has a requirement for
employed or self-employed gas fitters to be a ".....a member of a class
of persons approved for the time being by the Health and Safety
Executive".

The approved class of persons was Corgi and is now GasSafe. You need to
pass their tests to join, which is a demonstration of competence.

3 (3) above and the "class of persons" criteria applies only to
employers. employees and the self-employed.

Clause 3.(1) applies to everyone, including DIYers; ( No person shall
carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting ............unless he
is competent to do so).

Correct, DIYers can be competant.

As a colleague of mine remarked, "I'd get someone in to do it, but I want
it done properly."

On Mon, 21 Oct 2013 10:01:01 +0100, stuart noble wrote:

Going a little OT, my home insurer includes boiler breakdown for a very
modest charge providing it has been "regularly" serviced. Once every ten
years enough do you think? :-)

The longer the interval, the better the relative regularity.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

In article ,
Rick Hughes wrote:
I now have it under annual maintenance by a gas Safe roistered
maintenance company (SWALEC)

Have you money to burn - or did you use the cheapest possible crap when
self installing?

Don't understand the question ?

I installed it, to a professional design, and it works fine.

I have maintenance contract as I travel extensively on business .. and I
want 24 x 7 call out .....to cover family.
Took it out as soon as warranty expired.

How did you have a warranty on a self installed system?


Same way I have house buildings & contents insurance - I built the house
.... still have insurance.

You have a maintenance contract on your house?

--
*I'm planning to be spontaneous tomorrow *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Peter Crosland wrote:

On 21/10/2013 14:12, Terry Fields wrote:
Peter Crosland wrote:

On 21/10/2013 11:52, Terry Fields wrote:
Martin Brown wrote:

There was one near me where the guy installed his own bottle gas fired
central heating system. It worked OK for a few weeks and then one
afternoon fortunately with no one at home at 4pm detonated the entire
house and left a blackened roofless shell by the time the fire brigade
arrived. The source of the blaze wasn't hard to figure out. Insurers
said "show us the gas installation certificate" - and then get lost.

Was the certificate requirement a part of the insurance contract?

Mine is silent on the subject.

There is a general presumption in contracts of insurance that you will
take reasonable care to do work properly. Insurers are not keen to pay
out when the insured has been negligent.

That brings us back to the 'competence' problem of not being defined.
Just because a building blows up it doesn't provably mean that
anything about the installation process was incompetent or negligent.
Boilers, etc, carry warranties for this reason.

After I had my previous system installed, a leak developed in the
joint on the supply side of the meter, which the installers hadn't
touched. Buildings blow up for reasons other than lack of competence.

Of course not but that is not the point. Anything burning has an
inherent risk of danger. Explosion is only one of the potential dangers
that can occur by incompetent work. There are far more common risk of
poor combustion is CO poisoning. Do you think it is acceptable to put
people's lives at risk by trying to save a few pounds?

That's latter remark is a straw man.

Someone gave an example of a house exploding, and
I stayed with that. Had he given a list of potential disasters, I
would have followed that instead. The issue is that those judged
'competent' by a scheme can be found legally incompetent in the event
of a disaster, just as the home DIYer can be. But each case is tested
on its merits, because legal competence has not been defined.

--
Terry Fields

On 21/10/2013 11:52, Terry Fields wrote:
Martin Brown wrote:

There was one near me where the guy installed his own bottle gas fired
central heating system. It worked OK for a few weeks and then one
afternoon fortunately with no one at home at 4pm detonated the entire
house and left a blackened roofless shell by the time the fire brigade
arrived. The source of the blaze wasn't hard to figure out. Insurers
said "show us the gas installation certificate" - and then get lost.

Was the certificate requirement a part of the insurance contract?

Mine is silent on the subject.

You will only ever find out if you meddle with your own gas boiler and
the house subsequently explodes or poisons you with carbon monoxide.

The fundamentals were that the householder was held to be grossly
negligent and so the insurers refused to make any payment.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

F Murtz wrote:
Every single competant person started out not having done this job before.
I work on the principal that if someone else can do it I can.

Everyone with a certificate was taught by an experienced person and has
done the job, or a very similar one, many times during training. This is
(in theory) why gas fitters take on apprentices, purely to ensure that
they get "hands on" training. I watched it work when a gas fitter was
servicing my boiler recently. The apprentice did the work, while the gas
fitter watched him *very* carefully, and made mostly polite
recommendations while he was doing it.

A recent instance ,I am not a mechanic, I am not an air con technition,
but I just replaced the condensor in a 316i BMW including the vacuum and
then regas which is not for the faint hearted.
Just look at this mess.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9clefzv645t4g8z/bmw%20007.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1aep9eima1qbp34/bmw%20055.jpg

It is all back together and working now, but working on your outlook on
DIY I should not have attempted it.

The difference between that and what you are proposing is that if you
get the aircon repair wrong, then you end up being a bit too warm in
your car in the Summer. If you get a gas boiler repair even slightly
wrong, you and your family can end up dead or homeless many months later
as a result of the explosion and subsequent fire.

Also take note that even qualified people get it wrong on occasion, but,
as they are "professionally qualified", they should have adequate
insurance cover against any problems, as insisted on by their
professional bodies.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

Huge wrote:
On 2013-10-21, Clive George wrote:
On 21/10/2013 14:54, Huge wrote:
On 2013-10-21, Onetap wrote:

BG once stiffed me

They shafted us when we moved in here, 21 years ago. It still rankles, and
they'll never be getting another penny from me.

Along with WH Smith, Midland Expressway Ltd. (M6 Toll) and Pickfords.

What did the M6 toll people do?

Charge me for 2 cars and a trailer when I was towing my race car to an event.



I wonder what they charge those big car transporting lorries? ;-).

Tim