On 26/08/13 22:29, dennis@home wrote:
On 26/08/2013 20:22, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
Tim Streater writes:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
How else can BT know where to vector the actual ATM conversation?
I would have expected that, with one end in my local exchange, the
other end on the ISP's router, BT would use their management
software to set up a VC between those points over their ATM network,
and that would be it as far as their involvement was concerned.
However, giggling for "BT Radius Server" appears to indicate that it
doesn't work like that; perhaps the simple approach doesn't scale.

It doesn't actually know who your ISP is until your router tries to
login.
If you reconfigure your router with the login details for another
person
using a different ISP (but also on BT wholesale), you will find you can
login to their ISP on your line just like you normally log in to yours.

So the ATM circuit is built on the fly? That would make some sense.


Its done at the IP layer.
The customers ATM circuit does not get as far as the ISP on the ADSL
services.
I think it does. The circuits are delivered via ATM to the ISP. Not
via Ethernet.

BT routes no packet at the IP level at all for 'customer ISPs'
You can tell that with a traceroute.

Next hop is always somewhere in the ISPs 'virtual' machine room./

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 26/08/13 23:05, Bob Eager wrote:
On Mon, 26 Aug 2013 22:38:57 +0100, Java Jive wrote:

Quite. One doesn't really need to say any more.

To liven things up though, we could place virtual bets on how soon he
suggests that it's all the fault of the EU, or greenies, or both, or
tries to claim that if only we'd built new nuclear power stations, none
of it would have happened.

I'll place a virtual fiver on the EU scenario, what's your choice?
WD40. Spawn of the devil.



I see the Green Fool is still extant then...:-(

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 26/08/2013 17:46, Artic wrote:
The Natural Philosopher scribbled...


On 26/08/13 16:34, Artic wrote:
Artic scribbled...

The Natural Philosopher scribbled...


well the paranoia is justified as it got to within 2 miles of me.

And how many people live in those 8 sq miles?

******** - that should be 16 sm


less than 500


But as you're all related, I'm sure they'll keep your location a secret.

Thought that was Norfolk, not Suffolk? ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Monday, August 26, 2013 8:52:48 PM UTC+1, Adrian wrote:
In message , The Natural Philosopher

writes

came to my attention, since web security is a bit of an issue I have to

deal with.



This site wont hurt, but it will tell you, possibly rather too exactly

(it certainly knew which exchange I was on ADSL wise, and I'd still like

to know how) where you are located.



http://www.ip-tracker.org/locator/ip-lookup.php



I would be very interested to know how many people here find the same -

that it is more accurate than it has any right to be.





The location that it says that I'm at is about 70 miles out, and (so far

as I know) has no relevance to me or my ISP.





Adrian

--

To Reply :

replace "diy" with "news" and reverse the domain



If you are reading this from a web interface eg DIY Banter,

DIY Forum or Google Groups, please be aware this is NOT a forum, and

you are merely using a web portal to a USENET group. Many people block

posters coming from web portals due to perceieved SPAM or inaneness.

For a better method of access, please see:



http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet

Given the shape of the UK, to be able to get it 500 miles out should be difficult, but they managed for my static IP

In message , at
20:18:23 on Mon, 26 Aug 2013, Tim Hodgson
remarked:
t places the centre of the 20 mile radius that it thinks I'm in about 4
miles from my actual location. It might get a bit closer in London, but
only because tha area covered by each block in the IP range for a
particular ISP is smaller due to the greater population density.

Hang on - you're saying dynamic IPs are distributed according to some
geographical rule? That would rather defeat the point of dynamic IPs,
wouldn't it?

Dynamic IP addresses are allocated from pools of numbers. In the old
days it would have been a pool of numbers associated with a physical
rack of modems, these days with cable and ADSL provision the pool might
cover anything from a small area of a town to half the country.

So there are no useful generalisations to be made, especially when ISPs
generally don't publish the physical reach of each pool of numbers (not
to be confused with larger pools of numbers allocated by RIPE NCC etc).
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 20:59:48 on Mon, 26
Aug 2013, John Williamson remarked:
Dynamic IP addresses are a hangover from the days of dial-up links,
where you only went on line for as long as you needed to download, say,
new posts to newsgroups you followed. As you were charged by the time
you spent connected, you then went off-line to read and compose your
replies, then you connected again to send you replies and read new
posts. In this way, the telco only need one IP address for ten or so
subscribers.

It's a bit simpler than that - each modem had a static IP address, and
the subscriber inherited that IP address for the duration of their
session.

Some schemes existed to allow people to dial specific modems (rather
than get a random one from a hunt group) which would mean they had a
more consistent IP address.

And of course some ISPs went one stage further and routed their network
such that subscribers were allocated a personalised static IP address.
In those days IP addresses were in copious supply for any ISP who wanted
to do that.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 20:56:03 on Mon, 26
Aug 2013, John Williamson remarked:
Hang on - you're saying dynamic IPs are distributed according to
some
geographical rule? That would rather defeat the point of dynamic IPs,
wouldn't it?

As far as I can tell, there is a range of IP addresses allocated by the
ISP to each exchange or hub, and these will be geographically
identifiable as belonging to lines connected to that hub.

That sounds a bit like ADSL (although I'd doubt if the granularity was
as low as one pool per exchange).

The dynamic bit just means that if a subscriber disconnects, their IP
address becomes available for re-allocation from that pool to another
local subscriber.

That sounds more like dial-up, although ADSL subscribers can also
"disconnect". However, they would normally be given the same IP address
when they reconnect (ie, turn their ADSL modem back on). That's the sort
of address known as "fixed" (a dynamic address where you get the same
one every time, more or less). Some ISPs also offer true Static IPs for
ADSL (the same address for the lifetime of your contract).

But this is relatively simple scheme is being complicated by the use of
carrier-grade NAT, where the subscribers are "behind" a relatively small
number of public IP addresses.
--
Roland Perry

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 26/08/13 20:22, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
Tim Streater writes:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
How else can BT know where to vector the actual ATM conversation?
I would have expected that, with one end in my local exchange,
the other end on the ISP's router, BT would use their management
software to set up a VC between those points over their ATM
network, and that would be it as far as their involvement was
concerned. However, giggling for "BT Radius Server" appears to
indicate that it doesn't work like that; perhaps the simple
approach doesn't scale.

It doesn't actually know who your ISP is until your router tries to
login.
If you reconfigure your router with the login details for another person
using a different ISP (but also on BT wholesale), you will find you can
login to their ISP on your line just like you normally log in to yours.

So the ATM circuit is built on the fly? That would make some sense.

I did almost understand it once - but I THINK the way it goes is that
you open a default ATM circuit to BT's radius server which knows broadly
'who' you belong to, and that then opens a new circuit to the ISP's
radius server using the credentials you have presented already..then you
get logged in there and have a direct virtual circuit to their
termination kit.



'Scuse me if a dumb question, but where would a proxy server fit into this
scheme ? Would they be a far end somewhere, and fling a connection back into
their radius server for it to be routed ... where ?

Arfa


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members
of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded
with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 26/08/2013 22:44, Tim Streater wrote:

Its done at the IP layer.
The customers ATM circuit does not get as far as the ISP on the ADSL
services.

Whose idea was this, then, and why.


No idea, to hide the underlying architecture from the service they sell
I would think.
You wouldn't want the ISP to have ATM to the customer as that would
allow them to offer QOS.

On 26/08/2013 23:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 26/08/13 22:29, dennis@home wrote:
On 26/08/2013 20:22, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
Tim Streater writes:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
How else can BT know where to vector the actual ATM conversation?
I would have expected that, with one end in my local exchange, the
other end on the ISP's router, BT would use their management
software to set up a VC between those points over their ATM network,
and that would be it as far as their involvement was concerned.
However, giggling for "BT Radius Server" appears to indicate that it
doesn't work like that; perhaps the simple approach doesn't scale.

It doesn't actually know who your ISP is until your router tries to
login.
If you reconfigure your router with the login details for another
person
using a different ISP (but also on BT wholesale), you will find you can
login to their ISP on your line just like you normally log in to yours.

So the ATM circuit is built on the fly? That would make some sense.


Its done at the IP layer.
The customers ATM circuit does not get as far as the ISP on the ADSL
services.
I think it does. The circuits are delivered via ATM to the ISP. Not
via Ethernet.

Just because the link to the ISP is over ATM doesn't mean subscribers
ATM circuits are presented at the ISP end.
They could be delivered via ethernet



BT routes no packet at the IP level at all for 'customer ISPs'
You can tell that with a traceroute.

Next hop is always somewhere in the ISPs 'virtual' machine room./


And?

On 27/08/13 08:06, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 20:59:48 on Mon, 26
Aug 2013, John Williamson remarked:
Dynamic IP addresses are a hangover from the days of dial-up links,
where you only went on line for as long as you needed to download,
say, new posts to newsgroups you followed. As you were charged by the
time you spent connected, you then went off-line to read and compose
your replies, then you connected again to send you replies and read
new posts. In this way, the telco only need one IP address for ten or
so subscribers.

It's a bit simpler than that - each modem had a static IP address, and
the subscriber inherited that IP address for the duration of their
session.

maybe originally. But that vanished when banks of modems were replaced
by kit that plugged straight into BT supplied trunks, and radius servers
came in.

In fact even when it was banks of modems connected to computers I cant
recall there was necessarily a 'one per modem' IP allocation. PPP auth
has generally been bound to the user, not the actual interface when
stiing up IP addresses.


Some schemes existed to allow people to dial specific modems (rather
than get a random one from a hunt group) which would mean they had a
more consistent IP address.

And of course some ISPs went one stage further and routed their
network such that subscribers were allocated a personalised static IP
address. In those days IP addresses were in copious supply for any ISP
who wanted to do that.
Except that now with 90% of people permanently connected everyone DOES
essentially have an IP address - it just gets reallocated from time to
time on dynamic setups.

And again, with the way backhaul is now run over ATM circuits, there is
no need for any 'geographical' routing of IP packets to a given
DSLAM. The ISP throws the IP packet into the ATM cloud and the routing
to the DSLAM is done with ATM routing handled typically by BTs ATM network.

Its not that way for cable though, which is why cable customers have IP
addresses that are related to the local cable hubs.

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 27/08/13 08:12, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 20:56:03 on Mon, 26
Aug 2013, John Williamson remarked:
Hang on - you're saying dynamic IPs are distributed according to some
geographical rule? That would rather defeat the point of dynamic IPs,
wouldn't it?

As far as I can tell, there is a range of IP addresses allocated by
the ISP to each exchange or hub, and these will be geographically
identifiable as belonging to lines connected to that hub.

That sounds a bit like ADSL (although I'd doubt if the granularity was
as low as one pool per exchange).

Its very similar to ADSL in that THESE days all the 'modems' are in
fact banks of kit sitting at the end of an ATM backhaul for voice type
circuits. I cant remember if the presentation is ISDN or not.

The difference with ADSL is that the DSLAM sits in the exchange. However
the IP session only starts once the ATM conversation has been backhauled
back to the ISP. So as far as the ISP is concerned the IP routing stops
in their central machine room.
IP is then tunnelled over te ATM to the dslam and then over DSL to the
actual router/modem in the users premises.

So that from an IP perspective, the ADSL router/modem is DIRECTLY
connected via and invisible virtual circuit to the ISPS edge ATM router
in their machine room.

And that model is identical to modems. Expect that the DSLAM in the
exchange is replaced by a different piece of kit in the ISPS machine
room,. and voice circuits are routed over the BT bakhaul, instead.

But in neither case is there any need to know, or any knowledge of,
which IP address is associated with which exchange.

That is the way things are done using BT to connect the customer to the
ISP. All bets are off for cable. Certainly some cable companies - or
the remains thereof all absorbed into Virgin I guess - used iP routing
internally with IP pools allocated to distinct geographical areas.

The dynamic bit just means that if a subscriber disconnects, their IP
address becomes available for re-allocation from that pool to another
local subscriber.

That sounds more like dial-up, although ADSL subscribers can also
"disconnect". However, they would normally be given the same IP
address when they reconnect (ie, turn their ADSL modem back on).
That's the sort of address known as "fixed" (a dynamic address where
you get the same one every time, more or less). Some ISPs also offer
true Static IPs for ADSL (the same address for the lifetime of your
contract).

ADSL subscriebrs are not normally given the same iP address. they will
always be given a different one in general if they are on dynamic
addresses. either on a round-robin or randaom allocation basis.

But this is relatively simple scheme is being complicated by the use
of carrier-grade NAT, where the subscribers are "behind" a relatively
small number of public IP addresses.
That is generally the case only on mobile comms.



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 27/08/13 08:21, Arfa Daily wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 26/08/13 20:22, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
Tim Streater writes:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
How else can BT know where to vector the actual ATM conversation?
I would have expected that, with one end in my local exchange,
the other end on the ISP's router, BT would use their management
software to set up a VC between those points over their ATM
network, and that would be it as far as their involvement was
concerned. However, giggling for "BT Radius Server" appears to
indicate that it doesn't work like that; perhaps the simple
approach doesn't scale.

It doesn't actually know who your ISP is until your router tries to
login.
If you reconfigure your router with the login details for another
person
using a different ISP (but also on BT wholesale), you will find you
can
login to their ISP on your line just like you normally log in to
yours.

So the ATM circuit is built on the fly? That would make some sense.

I did almost understand it once - but I THINK the way it goes is that
you open a default ATM circuit to BT's radius server which knows broadly
'who' you belong to, and that then opens a new circuit to the ISP's
radius server using the credentials you have presented already..then you
get logged in there and have a direct virtual circuit to their
termination kit.



'Scuse me if a dumb question, but where would a proxy server fit into
this scheme ? Would they be a far end somewhere, and fling a
connection back into their radius server for it to be routed ... where ?

BTs radius server has to know - because until they do, they don't even
know which IPS you belong to - who you are. They dont associate a
particular line with a particular ISP at exchange level.

which is why typically you might have a login like

BTs proxy server gets to see that first, looks it up, says that indeed
yes, they have a record of that ISP and that username, and then they use
that to switch the virtual ATM circuit to the ISPS ATM edge router.

Whether or not BTs radius server does the authentication on behalf of
the ISP or simply hands over the auth session to the ISPs own radius
server I do not know.

I assume the latter, because CHAP inserts auth packets into the PPP
stream on a regular basis IIRC.


Arfa


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable
to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth
of a diminishing number of producers.




--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 27/08/13 08:38, dennis@home wrote:
On 26/08/2013 22:44, Tim Streater wrote:

Its done at the IP layer.
The customers ATM circuit does not get as far as the ISP on the ADSL
services.

Whose idea was this, then, and why.


No idea, to hide the underlying architecture from the service they
sell I would think.

The ATM does get to the ISP from the customer.

You wouldn't want the ISP to have ATM to the customer as that would
allow them to offer QOS.


At some level BT provide that for them.

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 27/08/13 08:41, dennis@home wrote:
On 26/08/2013 23:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 26/08/13 22:29, dennis@home wrote:
On 26/08/2013 20:22, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
Tim Streater writes:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
How else can BT know where to vector the actual ATM conversation?
I would have expected that, with one end in my local exchange, the
other end on the ISP's router, BT would use their management
software to set up a VC between those points over their ATM
network,
and that would be it as far as their involvement was concerned.
However, giggling for "BT Radius Server" appears to indicate
that it
doesn't work like that; perhaps the simple approach doesn't scale.

It doesn't actually know who your ISP is until your router tries to
login.
If you reconfigure your router with the login details for another
person
using a different ISP (but also on BT wholesale), you will find
you can
login to their ISP on your line just like you normally log in to
yours.

So the ATM circuit is built on the fly? That would make some sense.


Its done at the IP layer.
The customers ATM circuit does not get as far as the ISP on the ADSL
services.
I think it does. The circuits are delivered via ATM to the ISP. Not
via Ethernet.

Just because the link to the ISP is over ATM doesn't mean subscribers
ATM circuits are presented at the ISP end.
They could be delivered via ethernet

Indeed they could, But I dont think they are in fact.

not unless you are on 21CN arrangement.



BT routes no packet at the IP level at all for 'customer ISPs'
You can tell that with a traceroute.

Next hop is always somewhere in the ISPs 'virtual' machine room./


And?

so the concept of association of IP with a distinct geographical area
simply does not exist.

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

In message , at 09:01:48 on Tue, 27 Aug
2013, The Natural Philosopher remarked:
Dynamic IP addresses are a hangover from the days of dial-up links,
where you only went on line for as long as you needed to download,
say, new posts to newsgroups you followed. As you were charged by the
time you spent connected, you then went off-line to read and compose
your replies, then you connected again to send you replies and read
new posts. In this way, the telco only need one IP address for ten or
so subscribers.

It's a bit simpler than that - each modem had a static IP address, and
the subscriber inherited that IP address for the duration of their
session.

maybe originally. But that vanished when banks of modems were replaced
by kit that plugged straight into BT supplied trunks,

No, the banks of modems worked just the same, even if the modems became
digital (and timeshared on one processor).

and radius servers came in.

Nothing to do with that.

In fact even when it was banks of modems connected to computers I cant
recall there was necessarily a 'one per modem' IP allocation.

Yes it was.

PPP auth has generally been bound to the user, not the actual interface
when stiing up IP addresses.

That has nothing to do with it (unless it's an ISP who is going to great
lengths to provide static IP addresses).

Some schemes existed to allow people to dial specific modems (rather
than get a random one from a hunt group) which would mean they had a
more consistent IP address.

And of course some ISPs went one stage further and routed their
network such that subscribers were allocated a personalised static IP
address. In those days IP addresses were in copious supply for any ISP
who wanted to do that.
Except that now with 90% of people permanently connected everyone DOES
essentially have an IP address - it just gets reallocated from time to
time on dynamic setups.

Unless they are behind carrier grade NAT.

And again, with the way backhaul is now run over ATM circuits, there is
no need for any 'geographical' routing of IP packets to a given
DSLAM. The ISP throws the IP packet into the ATM cloud and the routing
to the DSLAM is done with ATM routing handled typically by BTs ATM network.

It's still possible for the ISP to allocate the IP addresses based on
regional pools of addresses at the NOC at his end of the ATM backhaul.

And then there's the ISPs who aren't BT Wholesale resellers.

Its not that way for cable though, which is why cable customers have IP
addresses that are related to the local cable hubs.

Yes. But these aren't normally published.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 09:16:22 on Tue, 27 Aug
2013, The Natural Philosopher remarked:
Some ISPs also offer
true Static IPs for ADSL (the same address for the lifetime of your
contract).

ADSL subscriebrs are not normally given the same iP address.

That's why I said "some".

they will
always be given a different one in general if they are on dynamic
addresses. either on a round-robin or randaom allocation basis.

But this is relatively simple scheme is being complicated by the use
of carrier-grade NAT, where the subscribers are "behind" a relatively
small number of public IP addresses.
That is generally the case only on mobile comms.

And BT's retail product (for new subscribers).
--
Roland Perry

John Rumm scribbled...


On 26/08/2013 17:46, Artic wrote:
The Natural Philosopher scribbled...


On 26/08/13 16:34, Artic wrote:
Artic scribbled...

The Natural Philosopher scribbled...


well the paranoia is justified as it got to within 2 miles of me.

And how many people live in those 8 sq miles?

******** - that should be 16 sm


less than 500


But as you're all related, I'm sure they'll keep your location a secret.

Thought that was Norfolk, not Suffolk? ;-)



I'll have to work on my stalking skills.

On 26/08/2013 17:57, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 17:48:04 on
Mon, 26 Aug 2013, Chris Hogg remarked:
It has me anywhere within the M25. Only 300 miles out, which I'm quite
pleased about!

Which simply proves that geolocation based on IP address is crap.

However, should you be using a laptop (let alone mobile) with wifi,
there are tools/databases that people can use which will quite likely
locate you within a few hundred yards.

I don't think you mean with wifi do you? Locating a laptop on wifi
should get you no further information that the IP address of the router
providing the wifi. The same information that you would get for a wired
machine on the same lan.

A laptop on 3G mobile data however may well be be located more accurately.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm scribbled...


On 26/08/2013 17:57, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 17:48:04 on
Mon, 26 Aug 2013, Chris Hogg remarked:
It has me anywhere within the M25. Only 300 miles out, which I'm quite
pleased about!

Which simply proves that geolocation based on IP address is crap.

However, should you be using a laptop (let alone mobile) with wifi,
there are tools/databases that people can use which will quite likely
locate you within a few hundred yards.

I don't think you mean with wifi do you? Locating a laptop on wifi
should get you no further information that the IP address of the router
providing the wifi. The same information that you would get for a wired
machine on the same lan.

A laptop on 3G mobile data however may well be be located more accurately.


Google collect(ed) wireless nats with their streetview cars, and
combined it with addresses. For a time it was possible to get that info
from their database.

There are companies that can locate mobile phones and for a short time
one website did it for free.

Then we have Win 8 with TPM 2
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/08...any_windows_8/

On 27/08/2013 08:12, Roland Perry wrote:


That sounds more like dial-up, although ADSL subscribers can also
"disconnect". However, they would normally be given the same IP address
when they reconnect (ie, turn their ADSL modem back on). That's the sort
of address known as "fixed" (a dynamic address where you get the same
one every time, more or less). Some ISPs also offer true Static IPs for
ADSL (the same address for the lifetime of your contract).

There are a lot of ISPs in the UK where you get a different IP address
when you reconnect. SKY and virgin for instance (that probably covers
most customers)

There are no real advantages to static addresses as far as most users
are concerned. You don't even need one for a mail server (but it does
make black listing servers easier).

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
came to my attention, since web security is a bit of an issue I have to
deal with.

This site wont hurt, but it will tell you, possibly rather too exactly
(it certainly knew which exchange I was on ADSL wise, and I'd still like
to know how) where you are located.

http://www.ip-tracker.org/locator/ip-lookup.php

I would be very interested to know how many people here find the same -
that it is more accurate than it has any right to be.

It certainly suggests thatif you are on a fixed IP your town at least is
known. I'd be interested to hear also from those on a dynamically
allocated IP address how accurate it is.

I did look up one 3 year old dynamically allocated IP address in an
email from someone local, and it reckoned they were in Dorset, which is
a long way away, but the mail was several years old.

So I'd like to know if it 'knows' where you are right now.

Says London for me, too, which is hundreds of miles away. I think it just
finds out who owns the pool od IP address, which I expect will be your ISP,
or whoever they buy the capacity from.

On Mon, 26 Aug 2013 01:01:29 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

came to my attention, since web security is a bit of an issue I have to
deal with.

This site wont hurt, but it will tell you, possibly rather too exactly
(it certainly knew which exchange I was on ADSL wise, and I'd still like
to know how) where you are located.

http://www.ip-tracker.org/locator/ip-lookup.php

Nothing to worry about there, and it can be a useful tool when you have
arseholes trying to hack your website.


However *this* has the potential to be dangerous (both are safe links BTW!)

Forget tracking cookies

https://panopticlick.eff.org/

https://panopticlick.eff.org/browser-uniqueness.pdf


The system fonts 'leakage' I observed in Chrome (maybe its in other browsers too
but not in Firefox) is shocking.


--

On 27/08/2013 09:27, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 27/08/13 08:41, dennis@home wrote:


Just because the link to the ISP is over ATM doesn't mean subscribers
ATM circuits are presented at the ISP end.
They could be delivered via ethernet

Indeed they could, But I dont think they are in fact.

not unless you are on 21CN arrangement.


Even before that the ISP had a choice of pipes into the BT network.
there were cost advantages to some of them for some ISPs.

BT routes no packet at the IP level at all for 'customer ISPs'
You can tell that with a traceroute.

Next hop is always somewhere in the ISPs 'virtual' machine room./


And?

so the concept of association of IP with a distinct geographical area
simply does not exist.



That is up to the ISP and what they want to do with their IP addresses,
it has nothing to do with the BT network.

On 27/08/13 13:33, The Other Mike wrote:
On Mon, 26 Aug 2013 01:01:29 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

came to my attention, since web security is a bit of an issue I have to
deal with.

This site wont hurt, but it will tell you, possibly rather too exactly
(it certainly knew which exchange I was on ADSL wise, and I'd still like
to know how) where you are located.

http://www.ip-tracker.org/locator/ip-lookup.php
Nothing to worry about there, and it can be a useful tool when you have
arseholes trying to hack your website.


However *this* has the potential to be dangerous (both are safe links BTW!)

Forget tracking cookies

https://panopticlick.eff.org/

https://panopticlick.eff.org/browser-uniqueness.pdf


The system fonts 'leakage' I observed in Chrome (maybe its in other browsers too
but not in Firefox) is shocking.


that may tell you if a particular computer has visited you before to a
high degree of accuracy, but it doesn't actually say who it is or where
its located., and it also means that users with 'bog standard'
installations on the same hardware will look remerkably like each other.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 27/08/2013 09:16, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Its very similar to ADSL in that THESE days all the 'modems' are in
fact banks of kit sitting at the end of an ATM backhaul for voice type
circuits. I cant remember if the presentation is ISDN or not.

The difference with ADSL is that the DSLAM sits in the exchange. However
the IP session only starts once the ATM conversation has been backhauled
back to the ISP. So as far as the ISP is concerned the IP routing stops
in their central machine room.
IP is then tunnelled over te ATM to the dslam and then over DSL to the
actual router/modem in the users premises.

I think you should start with rfc1853 and work on from there if you want
to know what BT does.

But not why it does it!

On 27/08/2013 09:24, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 27/08/13 08:38, dennis@home wrote:
On 26/08/2013 22:44, Tim Streater wrote:

Its done at the IP layer.
The customers ATM circuit does not get as far as the ISP on the ADSL
services.

Whose idea was this, then, and why.


No idea, to hide the underlying architecture from the service they
sell I would think.

The ATM does get to the ISP from the customer.

You wouldn't want the ISP to have ATM to the customer as that would
allow them to offer QOS.


At some level BT provide that for them.


It doesn't do any such thing.
Not for normal retail ISPs.

It sells the ISP a pipe and the other side of the pipe has a certain
contention ratio depending on how much the ISP is paying. That
contention is for all ISPs using that bit of the network.

Its up to the ISP what contention ratio they put on their pipe into the
network as long as they don't put more customers on than they are paying
for.

There is no QOS offered on the product.

On 27/08/13 13:51, dennis@home wrote:
On 27/08/2013 09:24, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 27/08/13 08:38, dennis@home wrote:
On 26/08/2013 22:44, Tim Streater wrote:

Its done at the IP layer.
The customers ATM circuit does not get as far as the ISP on the ADSL
services.

Whose idea was this, then, and why.


No idea, to hide the underlying architecture from the service they
sell I would think.

The ATM does get to the ISP from the customer.

You wouldn't want the ISP to have ATM to the customer as that would
allow them to offer QOS.


At some level BT provide that for them.


It doesn't do any such thing.
Not for normal retail ISPs.

It sells the ISP a pipe and the other side of the pipe has a certain
contention ratio depending on how much the ISP is paying. That
contention is for all ISPs using that bit of the network.


exactly that IS qos managemnt of a kind..

Its up to the ISP what contention ratio they put on their pipe into
the network as long as they don't put more customers on than they are
paying for.

There is no QOS offered on the product.

other than that which is inherent in its operation..

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 27/08/2013 10:51, Artic wrote:

John Rumm scribbled...

The Natural Philosopher scribbled...


well the paranoia is justified as it got to within 2 miles of me.

And how many people live in those 8 sq miles?

******** - that should be 16 sm

More like 12.5 sq. miles to be within 2 miles of TNP.

less than 500


But as you're all related, I'm sure they'll keep your location a secret.

Thought that was Norfolk, not Suffolk? ;-)

I'll have to work on my stalking skills.

Stalk away. TNP has dropped a number of hints as to where his palatial
pad is located and even what his real name is.

I thought TNP lived SW of Cambridge, not SE, which would place him in
Cambridgeshire, not Suffolk, unless he is actually slumming it in Essex.

--
Roger Chapman

On 27/08/2013 13:18, dennis@home wrote:
There are a lot of ISPs in the UK where you get a different IP address
when you reconnect. SKY and virgin for instance (that probably covers
most customers)

Very, very rarely get a new ip address simply by reconnecting on our
patch of VM cable. More likely to happen if modem is changed, though it
can change at other times.

--
Rod

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 26 Aug 2013 20:36:25 +0100, ARW wrote:

I told the apprentice that the black line on my satnav was the
border of Isengard. We were in Chester and travelling South on the
A483 at the time. He never questioned it.

You expect an apprentice to have read Tolkien?

No. Just to have watched one of the films.........



--
Adam

In message , at 15:11:22 on
Tue, 27 Aug 2013, Roger Chapman remarked:
I thought TNP lived SW of Cambridge, not SE, which would place him in
Cambridgeshire, not Suffolk, unless he is actually slumming it in Essex.

Somewhere near Newmarket, I thought (which is in a rather isolated bit
of Suffolk sticking into Cambs). http://goo.gl/maps/iHIoM
--
Roland Perry

In message om, at
22:26:44 on Mon, 26 Aug 2013, "dennis@home"
remarked:
However, should you be using a laptop (let alone mobile) with wifi,
there are tools/databases that people can use which will quite likely
locate you within a few hundred yards.

That's rubbish.
There are tools you can use to locate yourself to a few hundred yards.
he wifi identity is not usually passed beyond the router/ap unless you
send it at the application layer.

Which is what happens behind your back if you aren't careful.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at
11:46:01 on Tue, 27 Aug 2013, John Rumm
remarked:
However, should you be using a laptop (let alone mobile) with wifi,
there are tools/databases that people can use which will quite likely
locate you within a few hundred yards.

I don't think you mean with wifi do you? Locating a laptop on wifi
should get you no further information that the IP address of the router
providing the wifi. The same information that you would get for a wired
machine on the same lan.

Yes, I do mean wifi. Not only did Google (and at least one other)
wardrive the entire country logging the position of wifi points, but
nowadays they keep them up to date by apps on mobile phones reporting
(without the users realising, and obviously only if both wifi and GPS
are enable) the identity of local wifi points, and the GPS co-ordinates
of the phone.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry scribbled...


In message , at 15:11:22 on
Tue, 27 Aug 2013, Roger Chapman remarked:
I thought TNP lived SW of Cambridge, not SE, which would place him in
Cambridgeshire, not Suffolk, unless he is actually slumming it in Essex.

Somewhere near Newmarket, I thought (which is in a rather isolated bit
of Suffolk sticking into Cambs). http://goo.gl/maps/iHIoM


Too many of the boundries in that part of the world have been moved
around by the post office and local councils, the county lines wander
all over the place.

Peterborough in Cambs - WTF ?

On 26/08/13 08:47, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 07:24:31 on Mon, 26
Aug 2013, Bob Eager remarked:
Plugging an IP address into http://www.ripe.net will often get it close.
I suspect that's what it is using.

Seems unlikely in my case, because that would put me in Slough (not
Salisbury). Let alone where I really am!

Amusingly, one of these sites gets it quite wrong. I'm in East Kent,
but it gives me as in Arnold, Notts. I think they're parsing the wrong
field in the RIPE data - that's part of my ISP's name...!

That particular ISP has some 'interesting' entries in the RIPE Database.
Several of the entries have a "missing" or "unspecified" address, so I
think we can understand why they have latched onto a town appearing in
the person-name field instead.

I'm with the same ISP and my details in RIPE are spot on, however the
ip-tracker site puts me in Sevenoaks Kent when I'm actually in Woking
Surrey. Wouldn't surprise me if Adrian has done something deliberately
to obfuscate the data.

In message sting.com,
at 23:27:51 on Tue, 27 Aug 2013, Artic remarked:
Somewhere near Newmarket, I thought (which is in a rather isolated bit
of Suffolk sticking into Cambs). http://goo.gl/maps/iHIoM

Too many of the boundries in that part of the world have been moved
around by the post office and local councils, the county lines wander
all over the place.

Peterborough in Cambs - WTF ?

The perils of crowd-sourcing data.

As we well know, it's in the County of Peterborough.

A more definitive map (CoP in dark green; I'm always surprised how much
bigger than the city it is):

http://www.cambridgeshire.gov.uk/NR/...CAF-43E6-A09E-
B79B2686D5BF/0/CambridgeshireAreaMap.pdf
--
Roland Perry

On 27/08/2013 13:06, Artic wrote:
John Rumm scribbled...


On 26/08/2013 17:57, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 17:48:04 on
Mon, 26 Aug 2013, Chris Hogg remarked:
It has me anywhere within the M25. Only 300 miles out, which I'm quite
pleased about!

Which simply proves that geolocation based on IP address is crap.

However, should you be using a laptop (let alone mobile) with wifi,
there are tools/databases that people can use which will quite likely
locate you within a few hundred yards.

I don't think you mean with wifi do you? Locating a laptop on wifi
should get you no further information that the IP address of the router
providing the wifi. The same information that you would get for a wired
machine on the same lan.

A laptop on 3G mobile data however may well be be located more accurately.


Google collect(ed) wireless nats with their streetview cars, and
combined it with addresses. For a time it was possible to get that info
from their database.

Not at all relevant from the point of view of someone at the other end
of the connection though.

If you connect to my server via wifi, I have no visibility of the SSID
that you are connected via.

The information google connected is only of use if you are at the wifi
end, where you can then relate an SSID (or possibly a MAC address) to a
geographic location. Something as the user you know anyway, but a handy
hint for a passing satnav perhaps.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 27/08/2013 20:03, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
11:46:01 on Tue, 27 Aug 2013, John Rumm
remarked:
However, should you be using a laptop (let alone mobile) with wifi,
there are tools/databases that people can use which will quite likely
locate you within a few hundred yards.

I don't think you mean with wifi do you? Locating a laptop on wifi
should get you no further information that the IP address of the
router providing the wifi. The same information that you would get for
a wired machine on the same lan.

Yes, I do mean wifi. Not only did Google (and at least one other)
wardrive the entire country logging the position of wifi points, but
nowadays they keep them up to date by apps on mobile phones reporting
(without the users realising, and obviously only if both wifi and GPS
are enable) the identity of local wifi points, and the GPS co-ordinates
of the phone.

Even allowing for that, its still of no relevance. We are talking about
someone remote working out you location. They don't have access to the
SSID or MAC address of the wifi router you are using, hence they can't
use it even if they had all of google's database.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher writes:
On 27/08/13 08:41, dennis@home wrote:
On 26/08/2013 23:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 26/08/13 22:29, dennis@home wrote:
On 26/08/2013 20:22, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
Tim Streater writes:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
How else can BT know where to vector the actual ATM conversation?
I would have expected that, with one end in my local exchange, the
other end on the ISP's router, BT would use their management
software to set up a VC between those points over their ATM
network,
and that would be it as far as their involvement was concerned.
However, giggling for "BT Radius Server" appears to indicate
that it
doesn't work like that; perhaps the simple approach doesn't scale.

It doesn't actually know who your ISP is until your router tries to
login.
If you reconfigure your router with the login details for another
person
using a different ISP (but also on BT wholesale), you will find
you can
login to their ISP on your line just like you normally log in to
yours.

So the ATM circuit is built on the fly? That would make some sense.


Its done at the IP layer.
The customers ATM circuit does not get as far as the ISP on the ADSL
services.
I think it does. The circuits are delivered via ATM to the ISP. Not
via Ethernet.

Just because the link to the ISP is over ATM doesn't mean subscribers
ATM circuits are presented at the ISP end.
They could be delivered via ethernet

Indeed they could, But I dont think they are in fact.

ISP gets an IP link over ATM (originally a multiple of 155Mbits/s,
but I think they're now a multiple of 622Mbits/s), and customer's
sessions are presented as L2TP sessions over that IP link (i.e. IP
nested in L2TP's UDP/IP). ISP never sees the customer's ATM session.

BT also have a service where they will actually terminate the
L2TP sessions and route the end-users traffic directly to the
internet for the ISP, but I don't know any ISP which uses that.
It wouldn't leave anything much for the ISP to do.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]