came to my attention, since web security is a bit of an issue I have to
deal with.

This site wont hurt, but it will tell you, possibly rather too exactly
(it certainly knew which exchange I was on ADSL wise, and I'd still like
to know how) where you are located.

http://www.ip-tracker.org/locator/ip-lookup.php

I would be very interested to know how many people here find the same -
that it is more accurate than it has any right to be.

It certainly suggests thatif you are on a fixed IP your town at least is
known. I'd be interested to hear also from those on a dynamically
allocated IP address how accurate it is.

I did look up one 3 year old dynamically allocated IP address in an
email from someone local, and it reckoned they were in Dorset, which is
a long way away, but the mail was several years old.

So I'd like to know if it 'knows' where you are right now.

The implications are not pleasant. Especially in the context where I
discovered it being used. In essence any website that wants to know
where the person that said XYZ on their blog is located, to possibly
withina few miles, can do so.

And the site I chanced upon is one where the sort of people who run it,
would be quite capable of slinging a brick through your windows slashing
your tyres or worse.

Needless to say I got out very fast indeed.

Looks like a proxy server in a datacenter is the only way to go if you
want anonymity these days...

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On Mon, 26 Aug 2013 01:01:29 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

came to my attention, since web security is a bit of an issue I have to
deal with.

This site wont hurt, but it will tell you, possibly rather too exactly
(it certainly knew which exchange I was on ADSL wise, and I'd still like
to know how) where you are located.

http://www.ip-tracker.org/locator/ip-lookup.php

I would be very interested to know how many people here find the same -
that it is more accurate than it has any right to be.

Surely this information has been available for years? I get students to
find out this stuff routinely, just to see if they can.
--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
My posts (including this one) are my copyright and if @diy_forums on
Twitter wish to tweet them they can pay me £30 a post
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 26 Aug 2013 01:01:29 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

came to my attention, since web security is a bit of an issue I have to
deal with.

This site wont hurt, but it will tell you, possibly rather too exactly
(it certainly knew which exchange I was on ADSL wise, and I'd still like
to know how) where you are located.

http://www.ip-tracker.org/locator/ip-lookup.php

I would be very interested to know how many people here find the same -
that it is more accurate than it has any right to be.

Surely this information has been available for years? I get students to
find out this stuff routinely, just to see if they can.
--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
My posts (including this one) are my copyright and if @diy_forums on
Twitter wish to tweet them they can pay me £30 a post
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor


Puts me 120 miles away...

Jb

"Jb" wrote in message
...

"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 26 Aug 2013 01:01:29 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

came to my attention, since web security is a bit of an issue I have to
deal with.

This site wont hurt, but it will tell you, possibly rather too exactly
(it certainly knew which exchange I was on ADSL wise, and I'd still like
to know how) where you are located.

http://www.ip-tracker.org/locator/ip-lookup.php

I would be very interested to know how many people here find the same -
that it is more accurate than it has any right to be.

Surely this information has been available for years? I get students to
find out this stuff routinely, just to see if they can.
--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
My posts (including this one) are my copyright and if @diy_forums on
Twitter wish to tweet them they can pay me £30 a post
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor


Puts me 120 miles away...

Jb



and me about 15 miles away ...

Arfa

On Monday, August 26, 2013 10:08:35 AM UTC+1, Arfa Daily wrote:
"Jb" wrote in message

...



"Bob Eager" wrote in message

...

On Mon, 26 Aug 2013 01:01:29 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:



came to my attention, since web security is a bit of an issue I have to

deal with.



This site wont hurt, but it will tell you, possibly rather too exactly

(it certainly knew which exchange I was on ADSL wise, and I'd still like

to know how) where you are located.



http://www.ip-tracker.org/locator/ip-lookup.php



I would be very interested to know how many people here find the same -

that it is more accurate than it has any right to be.



Surely this information has been available for years? I get students to

find out this stuff routinely, just to see if they can.

--

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org

My posts (including this one) are my copyright and if @diy_forums on

Twitter wish to tweet them they can pay me £30 a post

*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor





Puts me 120 miles away...



Jb







and me about 15 miles away ...



Arfa

and me 103 miles away, so I guess coincidence in many cases of purported accuracy

Jonathan

On 26/08/2013 10:28, Jonathan wrote:
On Monday, August 26, 2013 10:08:35 AM UTC+1, Arfa Daily wrote:
"Jb" wrote in message

...



"Bob Eager" wrote in message

...

On Mon, 26 Aug 2013 01:01:29 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:



came to my attention, since web security is a bit of an issue I have to

deal with.



This site wont hurt, but it will tell you, possibly rather too exactly

(it certainly knew which exchange I was on ADSL wise, and I'd still like

to know how) where you are located.



http://www.ip-tracker.org/locator/ip-lookup.php



I would be very interested to know how many people here find the same -

that it is more accurate than it has any right to be.



Surely this information has been available for years? I get students to

find out this stuff routinely, just to see if they can.

--

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org

My posts (including this one) are my copyright and if @diy_forums on

Twitter wish to tweet them they can pay me £30 a post

*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor





Puts me 120 miles away...



Jb







and me about 15 miles away ...



Arfa

and me 103 miles away, so I guess coincidence in many cases of purported accuracy

Jonathan

Correctly locates me in the Manchester area, but anywhere in a circle
around 24 miles diameter. Circle is centred on Manchester city centre,
not where I am located. So locates me along with probably around 3 to
3.5 million other people as a minimum.

SteveW

On 26/08/2013 01:08, Bob Eager wrote:
On Mon, 26 Aug 2013 01:01:29 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

came to my attention, since web security is a bit of an issue I have to
deal with.

This site wont hurt, but it will tell you, possibly rather too exactly
(it certainly knew which exchange I was on ADSL wise, and I'd still like
to know how) where you are located.

http://www.ip-tracker.org/locator/ip-lookup.php

I would be very interested to know how many people here find the same -
that it is more accurate than it has any right to be.

More paranoia from NP! I am in Somerset and it shows me as being in
Central London. Completely useless as a means of locating me.


--
Peter Crosland

On 26/08/13 07:42, Peter Crosland wrote:
On 26/08/2013 01:08, Bob Eager wrote:
On Mon, 26 Aug 2013 01:01:29 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

came to my attention, since web security is a bit of an issue I have to
deal with.

This site wont hurt, but it will tell you, possibly rather too exactly
(it certainly knew which exchange I was on ADSL wise, and I'd still
like
to know how) where you are located.

http://www.ip-tracker.org/locator/ip-lookup.php

I would be very interested to know how many people here find the same -
that it is more accurate than it has any right to be.

More paranoia from NP! I am in Somerset and it shows me as being in
Central London. Completely useless as a means of locating me.


well the paranoia is justified as it got to within 2 miles of me.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On Mon, 26 Aug 2013 07:45:49 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 26/08/13 07:42, Peter Crosland wrote:
On 26/08/2013 01:08, Bob Eager wrote:
On Mon, 26 Aug 2013 01:01:29 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

came to my attention, since web security is a bit of an issue I have
to deal with.

This site wont hurt, but it will tell you, possibly rather too
exactly (it certainly knew which exchange I was on ADSL wise, and I'd
still like to know how) where you are located.

http://www.ip-tracker.org/locator/ip-lookup.php

I would be very interested to know how many people here find the same
-
that it is more accurate than it has any right to be.

More paranoia from NP! I am in Somerset and it shows me as being in
Central London. Completely useless as a means of locating me.


well the paranoia is justified as it got to within 2 miles of me.

Plugging an IP address into http://www.ripe.net will often get it close.
I suspect that's what it is using.

Amusingly, one of these sites gets it quite wrong. I'm in East Kent, but
it gives me as in Arnold, Notts. I think they'e parsing the wrong field
in the RIPE data - that's part of my ISP's name...!



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
My posts (including this one) are my copyright and if @diy_forums on
Twitter wish to tweet them they can pay me £30 a post
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

In message , at 07:24:31 on Mon, 26
Aug 2013, Bob Eager remarked:
Plugging an IP address into http://www.ripe.net will often get it close.
I suspect that's what it is using.

Seems unlikely in my case, because that would put me in Slough (not
Salisbury). Let alone where I really am!

Amusingly, one of these sites gets it quite wrong. I'm in East Kent,
but it gives me as in Arnold, Notts. I think they're parsing the wrong
field in the RIPE data - that's part of my ISP's name...!

That particular ISP has some 'interesting' entries in the RIPE Database.
Several of the entries have a "missing" or "unspecified" address, so I
think we can understand why they have latched onto a town appearing in
the person-name field instead.
--
Roland Perry

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
[snip]

well the paranoia is justified as it got to within 2 miles of me.

You could always grow a pair.

--
€¢DarWin|
_/ _/

On 26/08/2013 07:45, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 26/08/13 07:42, Peter Crosland wrote:
On 26/08/2013 01:08, Bob Eager wrote:
On Mon, 26 Aug 2013 01:01:29 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

came to my attention, since web security is a bit of an issue I have to
deal with.

This site wont hurt, but it will tell you, possibly rather too exactly
(it certainly knew which exchange I was on ADSL wise, and I'd still
like
to know how) where you are located.

http://www.ip-tracker.org/locator/ip-lookup.php

I would be very interested to know how many people here find the same -
that it is more accurate than it has any right to be.

More paranoia from NP! I am in Somerset and it shows me as being in
Central London. Completely useless as a means of locating me.


well the paranoia is justified as it got to within 2 miles of me.

It hardly seem worth worrying about since there are enough other ways of
finding someone's address without resorting to using their IP address.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

The Natural Philosopher scribbled...



well the paranoia is justified as it got to within 2 miles of me.


And how many people live in those 8 sq miles?

Artic scribbled...


The Natural Philosopher scribbled...



well the paranoia is justified as it got to within 2 miles of me.


And how many people live in those 8 sq miles?


******** - that should be 16 sm

On 26/08/2013 07:42, Peter Crosland wrote:
On 26/08/2013 01:08, Bob Eager wrote:
On Mon, 26 Aug 2013 01:01:29 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

came to my attention, since web security is a bit of an issue I have to
deal with.

This site wont hurt, but it will tell you, possibly rather too exactly
(it certainly knew which exchange I was on ADSL wise, and I'd still like
to know how) where you are located.

http://www.ip-tracker.org/locator/ip-lookup.php

I would be very interested to know how many people here find the same -
that it is more accurate than it has any right to be.

More paranoia from NP! I am in Somerset and it shows me as being in
Central London. Completely useless as a means of locating me.



I'm in Yorkshire, and it shows me as being in the correct town.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote:

So I'd like to know if it 'knows' where you are right now.

I didn't get a pinpointed location: the map displayed a circle some thirty
miles in diameter. Even taking the nearest point on the rim of the circle
to me, the site was over sixty miles out.

On Mon, 26 Aug 2013 02:02:33 +0100
"Bert Coules" wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote:

So I'd like to know if it 'knows' where you are right now.

I didn't get a pinpointed location: the map displayed a circle some
thirty miles in diameter. Even taking the nearest point on the rim
of the circle to me, the site was over sixty miles out.



It tells me that I am somewhere in the middle of London, whereas I'm
actually between Bury St. Edmunds and Norwich. Oops.
I like this note:
"IP Language:
English, Irish, Ulster Scots, Scottish Gaelic , Scots, Welsh, Cornish"

Yeah, we use the last six of those a lot.

--
Davey.

On Mon, 26 Aug 2013 11:00:40 +0100, Davey wrote:

So I'd like to know if it 'knows' where you are right now.

I didn't get a pinpointed location: the map displayed a circle some
thirty miles in diameter. Even taking the nearest point on the rim of
the circle to me, the site was over sixty miles out.

It tells me that I am somewhere in the middle of London, whereas I'm
actually between Bury St. Edmunds and Norwich. Oops.

The Welsh border runs through my village, yet apparently I'm in Bedford...

Adrian wrote:
On Mon, 26 Aug 2013 11:00:40 +0100, Davey wrote:

So I'd like to know if it 'knows' where you are right now.

I didn't get a pinpointed location: the map displayed a circle some
thirty miles in diameter. Even taking the nearest point on the rim
of the circle to me, the site was over sixty miles out.

It tells me that I am somewhere in the middle of London, whereas I'm
actually between Bury St. Edmunds and Norwich. Oops.

The Welsh border runs through my village, yet apparently I'm in
Bedford...

I told the apprentice that the black line on my satnav was the border of
Isengard. We were in Chester and travelling South on the A483 at the time.
He never questioned it.




--
Adam

On Mon, 26 Aug 2013 20:36:25 +0100, ARW wrote:

I told the apprentice that the black line on my satnav was the border of
Isengard. We were in Chester and travelling South on the A483 at the
time. He never questioned it.

You expect an apprentice to have read Tolkien?

You expect a lot...

--
Cheers
Dave.

"ARW" wrote:
Adrian wrote:
On Mon, 26 Aug 2013 11:00:40 +0100, Davey wrote:

So I'd like to know if it 'knows' where you are right now.

I didn't get a pinpointed location: the map displayed a circle some
thirty miles in diameter. Even taking the nearest point on the rim
of the circle to me, the site was over sixty miles out.

It tells me that I am somewhere in the middle of London, whereas I'm
actually between Bury St. Edmunds and Norwich. Oops.

The Welsh border runs through my village, yet apparently I'm in
Bedford...

I told the apprentice that the black line on my satnav was the border of
Isengard. We were in Chester and travelling South on the A483 at the time.
He never questioned it.

If you kept going and got to London, he'd have to believe it.

http://www.tomdanvers.com/2012/04/mordor-via-bank/

--
€¢DarWin|
_/ _/

On 26/08/13 20:36, ARW wrote:
Adrian wrote:
On Mon, 26 Aug 2013 11:00:40 +0100, Davey wrote:

So I'd like to know if it 'knows' where you are right now.
I didn't get a pinpointed location: the map displayed a circle some
thirty miles in diameter. Even taking the nearest point on the rim
of the circle to me, the site was over sixty miles out.
It tells me that I am somewhere in the middle of London, whereas I'm
actually between Bury St. Edmunds and Norwich. Oops.
The Welsh border runs through my village, yet apparently I'm in
Bedford...
I told the apprentice that the black line on my satnav was the border of
Isengard. We were in Chester and travelling South on the A483 at the time.
He never questioned it.

we were driving through Newmarket when my elderly mother asked what town
it was.
'Edinburgh' I said. There was a pause. 'Its not how I imagined it would
be' she said.

That's when we knew we had a problem.





--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 26/08/2013 01:01, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
came to my attention, since web security is a bit of an issue I have to
deal with.

This site wont hurt, but it will tell you, possibly rather too exactly
(it certainly knew which exchange I was on ADSL wise, and I'd still like
to know how) where you are located.

http://www.ip-tracker.org/locator/ip-lookup.php

I would be very interested to know how many people here find the same -
that it is more accurate than it has any right to be.

Nowhere near with my ISPs... big circle round london but the edge still
well away.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 08/26/2013 01:01 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
came to my attention, since web security is a bit of an issue I have to
deal with.

This site wont hurt, but it will tell you, possibly rather too exactly
(it certainly knew which exchange I was on ADSL wise, and I'd still like
to know how) where you are located.

http://www.ip-tracker.org/locator/ip-lookup.php

I would be very interested to know how many people here find the same -
that it is more accurate than it has any right to be.

It certainly suggests thatif you are on a fixed IP your town at least is
known. I'd be interested to hear also from those on a dynamically
allocated IP address how accurate it is.

I did look up one 3 year old dynamically allocated IP address in an
email from someone local, and it reckoned they were in Dorset, which is
a long way away, but the mail was several years old.

So I'd like to know if it 'knows' where you are right now.

The implications are not pleasant. Especially in the context where I
discovered it being used. In essence any website that wants to know
where the person that said XYZ on their blog is located, to possibly
withina few miles, can do so.

And the site I chanced upon is one where the sort of people who run it,
would be quite capable of slinging a brick through your windows slashing
your tyres or worse.

Needless to say I got out very fast indeed.

Looks like a proxy server in a datacenter is the only way to go if you
want anonymity these days...


I suspect it might be a coincidence. I'm on a fixed IP address and it's
a tad under 100 miles out.

Andy C

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

This site wont hurt, but it will tell you, possibly rather too exactly
(it certainly knew which exchange I was on ADSL wise, and I'd still like
to know how) where you are located.

http://www.ip-tracker.org/locator/ip-lookup.php

I have a /29 subnet at home, the checker thinks I'm in Kettering which
it thinks is in Nottinghamshire, map shows Corby. In reality I'm a few
miles south of Leicester.

I'm on a fixed IP, and the website gives an almost central London location,
whereas I'm actually in SW Surrey some 40 miles away. It did get my ISP
(Zen) right. Looks as though it can give you the country OK, but not much
more.

Charles F


This site wont hurt, but it will tell you, possibly rather too exactly
(it certainly knew which exchange I was on ADSL wise, and I'd still like
to know how) where you are located.

http://www.ip-tracker.org/locator/ip-lookup.php

I have a /29 subnet at home, the checker thinks I'm in Kettering which it
thinks is in Nottinghamshire, map shows Corby. In reality I'm a few miles
south of Leicester.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
came to my attention, since web security is a bit of an issue I
have to deal with.

This site wont hurt, but it will tell you, possibly rather too
exactly (it certainly knew which exchange I was on ADSL wise, and
I'd still like to know how) where you are located.

Probably not the right Newsgroup in which to ask the "how" question.
You may be better off in something like uk.telecom.broadband.

However it'll at least be looking up records in the databases
maintained by several Network Information Centres (NICs). This
information is publically available.

For example, see the description of the Unix "whois" command:

http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/man.c...86&format=html

http://www.ip-tracker.org/locator/ip-lookup.php

I would be very interested to know how many people here find the
same - that it is more accurate than it has any right to be.

It certainly suggests thatif you are on a fixed IP your town at
least is known. I'd be interested to hear also from those on a
dynamically allocated IP address how accurate it is.

....

So I'd like to know if it 'knows' where you are right now.

Dynamic IP address here. With a provider that's based in Sheffield.
Tells me I'm in the London area. Which is about 100 miles away.
And I'm also nowhere near Sheffield.

The implications are not pleasant. Especially in the context where
I discovered it being used. In essence any website that wants to
know where the person that said XYZ on their blog is located, to
possibly withina few miles, can do so.

And the site I chanced upon is one where the sort of people who run
it, would be quite capable of slinging a brick through your windows
slashing your tyres or worse.

Needless to say I got out very fast indeed.

Looks like a proxy server in a datacenter is the only way to go if
you want anonymity these days...

Alternatively you could use the Tor network:

http://www.torproject.org/

I believe I could set up the packet filter on my Unix boxes to use
this for *everything* if I so choosed. Haven't tried this.

But see:

http://www.xroxy.com/proxylist.php

for a list of open proxies.
--
Dennis Davis

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
came to my attention, since web security is a bit of an issue I have to
deal with.

This site wont hurt, but it will tell you, possibly rather too exactly
(it certainly knew which exchange I was on ADSL wise, and I'd still like
to know how) where you are located.

http://www.ip-tracker.org/locator/ip-lookup.php

I would be very interested to know how many people here find the same -
that it is more accurate than it has any right to be.

It places the centre of the 20 mile radius that it thinks I'm in about 4
miles from my actual location. It might get a bit closer in London, but
only because tha area covered by each block in the IP range for a
particular ISP is smaller due to the greater population density.

If I log on via 3G, it thnks I'm in the docklands, which are about 200
miles away.

A fixed IP address may well have the street address associated with it,
depending on how particular the ISP is about registering such things.
--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 26/08/2013 08:33, John Williamson wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
came to my attention, since web security is a bit of an issue I have to
deal with.

This site wont hurt, but it will tell you, possibly rather too exactly
(it certainly knew which exchange I was on ADSL wise, and I'd still like
to know how) where you are located.

http://www.ip-tracker.org/locator/ip-lookup.php

I would be very interested to know how many people here find the same -
that it is more accurate than it has any right to be.

It places the centre of the 20 mile radius that it thinks I'm in about 4
miles from my actual location. It might get a bit closer in London, but
only because tha area covered by each block in the IP range for a
particular ISP is smaller due to the greater population density.

If I log on via 3G, it thnks I'm in the docklands, which are about 200
miles away.

A fixed IP address may well have the street address associated with it,
depending on how particular the ISP is about registering such things.

Most ISPs will have the full postal address for each of their customers
- after all they want some assurance of collecting payment. They will
normally be ale to relate either a static IP, or if the time of the
connection is known, a dynamic IP to the relevant customer.

However to get that information out of them should require a court order
(although other rules may apply for spooks!)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In message , at
15:49:25 on Mon, 26 Aug 2013, John Rumm
remarked:
Most ISPs will have the full postal address for each of their customers
- after all they want some assurance of collecting payment. They will
normally be ale to relate either a static IP, or if the time of the
connection is known, a dynamic IP to the relevant customer.

However to get that information out of them should require a court
order

Ahem! RIPA has been in place over ten years now, and only requires a
senior enough manager's signature, in whatever public authority or
police force claims to require the data.
--
Roland Perry

On 26/08/2013 17:41, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
15:49:25 on Mon, 26 Aug 2013, John Rumm
remarked:
Most ISPs will have the full postal address for each of their
customers - after all they want some assurance of collecting payment.
They will normally be ale to relate either a static IP, or if the time
of the connection is known, a dynamic IP to the relevant customer.

However to get that information out of them should require a court order

Ahem! RIPA has been in place over ten years now, and only requires a
senior enough manager's signature, in whatever public authority or
police force claims to require the data.

Yup, but slightly (but not much!) different from jo public wanting
access. (they might need to pay beer money to one of the aforementioned
public officials).

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 26/08/13 20:18, Tim Hodgson wrote:
John Williamson wrote:

t places the centre of the 20 mile radius that it thinks I'm in about 4
miles from my actual location. It might get a bit closer in London, but
only because tha area covered by each block in the IP range for a
particular ISP is smaller due to the greater population density.
Hang on - you're saying dynamic IPs are distributed according to some
geographical rule? That would rather defeat the point of dynamic IPs,
wouldn't it?
not really.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

Tim Hodgson wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 26/08/13 20:18, Tim Hodgson wrote:
John Williamson wrote:

t places the centre of the 20 mile radius that it thinks I'm in about 4
miles from my actual location. It might get a bit closer in London, but
only because tha area covered by each block in the IP range for a
particular ISP is smaller due to the greater population density.
Hang on - you're saying dynamic IPs are distributed according to some
geographical rule? That would rather defeat the point of dynamic IPs,
wouldn't it?
not really.

Well, I take the point to be that number_of_IPs number_of_customers.
The more constrained you are by geography, the more IPs you need for a
given number of customers.

Dynamic IP addresses are a hangover from the days of dial-up links,
where you only went on line for as long as you needed to download, say,
new posts to newsgroups you followed. As you were charged by the time
you spent connected, you then went off-line to read and compose your
replies, then you connected again to send you replies and read new
posts. In this way, the telco only need one IP address for ten or so
subscribers.

Some hotels still use this charging model for in-room internet conenctions.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

In message , at 20:59:48 on Mon, 26
Aug 2013, John Williamson remarked:
Dynamic IP addresses are a hangover from the days of dial-up links,
where you only went on line for as long as you needed to download, say,
new posts to newsgroups you followed. As you were charged by the time
you spent connected, you then went off-line to read and compose your
replies, then you connected again to send you replies and read new
posts. In this way, the telco only need one IP address for ten or so
subscribers.

It's a bit simpler than that - each modem had a static IP address, and
the subscriber inherited that IP address for the duration of their
session.

Some schemes existed to allow people to dial specific modems (rather
than get a random one from a hunt group) which would mean they had a
more consistent IP address.

And of course some ISPs went one stage further and routed their network
such that subscribers were allocated a personalised static IP address.
In those days IP addresses were in copious supply for any ISP who wanted
to do that.
--
Roland Perry

On 27/08/13 08:06, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 20:59:48 on Mon, 26
Aug 2013, John Williamson remarked:
Dynamic IP addresses are a hangover from the days of dial-up links,
where you only went on line for as long as you needed to download,
say, new posts to newsgroups you followed. As you were charged by the
time you spent connected, you then went off-line to read and compose
your replies, then you connected again to send you replies and read
new posts. In this way, the telco only need one IP address for ten or
so subscribers.

It's a bit simpler than that - each modem had a static IP address, and
the subscriber inherited that IP address for the duration of their
session.

maybe originally. But that vanished when banks of modems were replaced
by kit that plugged straight into BT supplied trunks, and radius servers
came in.

In fact even when it was banks of modems connected to computers I cant
recall there was necessarily a 'one per modem' IP allocation. PPP auth
has generally been bound to the user, not the actual interface when
stiing up IP addresses.


Some schemes existed to allow people to dial specific modems (rather
than get a random one from a hunt group) which would mean they had a
more consistent IP address.

And of course some ISPs went one stage further and routed their
network such that subscribers were allocated a personalised static IP
address. In those days IP addresses were in copious supply for any ISP
who wanted to do that.
Except that now with 90% of people permanently connected everyone DOES
essentially have an IP address - it just gets reallocated from time to
time on dynamic setups.

And again, with the way backhaul is now run over ATM circuits, there is
no need for any 'geographical' routing of IP packets to a given
DSLAM. The ISP throws the IP packet into the ATM cloud and the routing
to the DSLAM is done with ATM routing handled typically by BTs ATM network.

Its not that way for cable though, which is why cable customers have IP
addresses that are related to the local cable hubs.

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

Tim Hodgson wrote:
John Williamson wrote:

t places the centre of the 20 mile radius that it thinks I'm in about 4
miles from my actual location. It might get a bit closer in London, but
only because tha area covered by each block in the IP range for a
particular ISP is smaller due to the greater population density.

Hang on - you're saying dynamic IPs are distributed according to some
geographical rule? That would rather defeat the point of dynamic IPs,
wouldn't it?

As far as I can tell, there is a range of IP addresses allocated by the
ISP to each exchange or hub, and these will be geographically
identifiable as belonging to lines connected to that hub. The dynamic
bit just means that if a subscriber disconnects, their IP address
becomes available for re-allocation from that pool to another local
subscriber.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

In message , at 20:56:03 on Mon, 26
Aug 2013, John Williamson remarked:
Hang on - you're saying dynamic IPs are distributed according to
some
geographical rule? That would rather defeat the point of dynamic IPs,
wouldn't it?

As far as I can tell, there is a range of IP addresses allocated by the
ISP to each exchange or hub, and these will be geographically
identifiable as belonging to lines connected to that hub.

That sounds a bit like ADSL (although I'd doubt if the granularity was
as low as one pool per exchange).

The dynamic bit just means that if a subscriber disconnects, their IP
address becomes available for re-allocation from that pool to another
local subscriber.

That sounds more like dial-up, although ADSL subscribers can also
"disconnect". However, they would normally be given the same IP address
when they reconnect (ie, turn their ADSL modem back on). That's the sort
of address known as "fixed" (a dynamic address where you get the same
one every time, more or less). Some ISPs also offer true Static IPs for
ADSL (the same address for the lifetime of your contract).

But this is relatively simple scheme is being complicated by the use of
carrier-grade NAT, where the subscribers are "behind" a relatively small
number of public IP addresses.
--
Roland Perry

On 27/08/13 08:12, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 20:56:03 on Mon, 26
Aug 2013, John Williamson remarked:
Hang on - you're saying dynamic IPs are distributed according to some
geographical rule? That would rather defeat the point of dynamic IPs,
wouldn't it?

As far as I can tell, there is a range of IP addresses allocated by
the ISP to each exchange or hub, and these will be geographically
identifiable as belonging to lines connected to that hub.

That sounds a bit like ADSL (although I'd doubt if the granularity was
as low as one pool per exchange).

Its very similar to ADSL in that THESE days all the 'modems' are in
fact banks of kit sitting at the end of an ATM backhaul for voice type
circuits. I cant remember if the presentation is ISDN or not.

The difference with ADSL is that the DSLAM sits in the exchange. However
the IP session only starts once the ATM conversation has been backhauled
back to the ISP. So as far as the ISP is concerned the IP routing stops
in their central machine room.
IP is then tunnelled over te ATM to the dslam and then over DSL to the
actual router/modem in the users premises.

So that from an IP perspective, the ADSL router/modem is DIRECTLY
connected via and invisible virtual circuit to the ISPS edge ATM router
in their machine room.

And that model is identical to modems. Expect that the DSLAM in the
exchange is replaced by a different piece of kit in the ISPS machine
room,. and voice circuits are routed over the BT bakhaul, instead.

But in neither case is there any need to know, or any knowledge of,
which IP address is associated with which exchange.

That is the way things are done using BT to connect the customer to the
ISP. All bets are off for cable. Certainly some cable companies - or
the remains thereof all absorbed into Virgin I guess - used iP routing
internally with IP pools allocated to distinct geographical areas.

The dynamic bit just means that if a subscriber disconnects, their IP
address becomes available for re-allocation from that pool to another
local subscriber.

That sounds more like dial-up, although ADSL subscribers can also
"disconnect". However, they would normally be given the same IP
address when they reconnect (ie, turn their ADSL modem back on).
That's the sort of address known as "fixed" (a dynamic address where
you get the same one every time, more or less). Some ISPs also offer
true Static IPs for ADSL (the same address for the lifetime of your
contract).

ADSL subscriebrs are not normally given the same iP address. they will
always be given a different one in general if they are on dynamic
addresses. either on a round-robin or randaom allocation basis.

But this is relatively simple scheme is being complicated by the use
of carrier-grade NAT, where the subscribers are "behind" a relatively
small number of public IP addresses.
That is generally the case only on mobile comms.



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

In message , at 09:16:22 on Tue, 27 Aug
2013, The Natural Philosopher remarked:
Some ISPs also offer
true Static IPs for ADSL (the same address for the lifetime of your
contract).

ADSL subscriebrs are not normally given the same iP address.

That's why I said "some".

they will
always be given a different one in general if they are on dynamic
addresses. either on a round-robin or randaom allocation basis.

But this is relatively simple scheme is being complicated by the use
of carrier-grade NAT, where the subscribers are "behind" a relatively
small number of public IP addresses.
That is generally the case only on mobile comms.

And BT's retail product (for new subscribers).
--
Roland Perry

On 27/08/2013 09:16, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Its very similar to ADSL in that THESE days all the 'modems' are in
fact banks of kit sitting at the end of an ATM backhaul for voice type
circuits. I cant remember if the presentation is ISDN or not.

The difference with ADSL is that the DSLAM sits in the exchange. However
the IP session only starts once the ATM conversation has been backhauled
back to the ISP. So as far as the ISP is concerned the IP routing stops
in their central machine room.
IP is then tunnelled over te ATM to the dslam and then over DSL to the
actual router/modem in the users premises.

I think you should start with rfc1853 and work on from there if you want
to know what BT does.

But not why it does it!