On 20/05/2013 15:07, Nightjar wrote:
On 20/05/2013 11:01, polygonum wrote:
On 20/05/2013 10:48, Steve Firth wrote:
....
Yes, but that's because of the manufacturer you bought from who haven't
made a decent car since 1955.

Mind, I doubt there were many curved mirrors at all back then!

David Hockney proposed a theory that the development of realism in
Renaissance art was, at least in part, due to the development of concave
mirrors, which could be used to project images onto the canvas.

Colin Bignell

Sorry - should have been clearer - such things did indeed exist, but
maybe not for automotive use. The exterior ones I remember from near
that era were wing mirrors which were almost entirely useless because
they were not curved.

--
Rod

On 20/05/2013 16:56, polygonum wrote:
On 20/05/2013 15:07, Nightjar wrote:
On 20/05/2013 11:01, polygonum wrote:
On 20/05/2013 10:48, Steve Firth wrote:
....
Yes, but that's because of the manufacturer you bought from who haven't
made a decent car since 1955.

Mind, I doubt there were many curved mirrors at all back then!

David Hockney proposed a theory that the development of realism in
Renaissance art was, at least in part, due to the development of concave
mirrors, which could be used to project images onto the canvas.

Colin Bignell

Sorry - should have been clearer - such things did indeed exist, but
maybe not for automotive use. The exterior ones I remember from near
that era were wing mirrors which were almost entirely useless because
they were not curved.


ISTR the option of flat or convex mirrors for the 'racing' (i.e. bullet
shaped, rigid and doubtless very dangerous to pedestrians) wing mirrors
I fitted on my Triumph Herald. I never did understand why anybody would
want a flat mirror that far away.

Colin Bignell

On 20/05/2013 14:16, Nightjar wrote:
On 20/05/2013 10:48, dennis@home wrote:
On 20/05/2013 10:00, Nightjar wrote:

Except when driving a van, which will have a very large flat door
mirror, I would class the interior mirror as the primary aid.

Colin Bignell


I wouldn't, they aren't even compulsory.

They are for cars and vans first used on or after 1st June 1978, except
in the case where an interior mirror would give no view to the rear.
Oddly enough, given that many of them probably don't have a view to the
rear, for Ford Transits, the commencement date was 10th July 1978.

At least one car I drive has the interior mirror where it significantly
obstructs my view forwards and I take it out to drive.

If the vehicle was first used on or after 1st June 1978, and the
interior mirror would give a view to the rear, that is an offence under
the Road Vehicle (Construction and Use Regulations) 1986.

Colin Bignell


Well it wont give me a view to the rear so its fine to remove.
I prefer to see where I am going and can use the other mirrors to see
where I have been.

Its a 2013 car BTW.

I wonder if its a H&S infringement to supply a mirror that interferes
with the vehicles safety?

On 20/05/2013 14:21, Nightjar wrote:
8

It distorts distances because it is made convex in order to give a wider
field of view. The curvature will be smaller on the driver's door mirror
than on the passenger side mirror, but it is there on most cars. You can
check that simply by holding a flat hand mirror above it and comparing
the sizes of what you can see in the two mirrors.

Colin Bignell

That's not distortion, its predictable and useful.

"dennis@home" wrote:
On 20/05/2013 10:00, Nightjar wrote:

Except when driving a van, which will have a very large flat door
mirror, I would class the interior mirror as the primary aid.

Colin Bignell


I wouldn't, they aren't even compulsory.
At least one car I drive has the interior mirror where it significantly
obstructs my view forwards and I take it out to drive.

The interior mirror in my camper an is where we mount the sat nav. Doesn't
work for rear view as we've no rear windows
John
--
jtm from his iPad

On 20/05/2013 19:35, dennis@home wrote:
On 20/05/2013 14:21, Nightjar wrote:
8

It distorts distances because it is made convex in order to give a wider
field of view. The curvature will be smaller on the driver's door mirror
than on the passenger side mirror, but it is there on most cars. You can
check that simply by holding a flat hand mirror above it and comparing
the sizes of what you can see in the two mirrors.

Colin Bignell

That's not distortion, its predictable and useful.

As I said to begin with, it distorts distances. It is useful in that it
allows you to see more. It is less useful when you want to judge speed
and distance.

Colin Bignell

On 20/05/2013 15:51, mully wrote:
Nightjar wrote:
....
By comparison, a smallish concentric marked roundabout has traffic
entering and leaving in all directions, often without signals, short
weaving zones, and highly variable traffic speeds, which I view as
involving a much higher workload.

Can agree on that, and in France the common signal to go straight on (for
exit 2) is to signal as though going all the way round until they reach the
exit

The Highway Code used to give that as the way to signal at roundabouts,
so you sometimes see it in Britain too. It was a long time ago though,
probably in the same one that gave whip signals for drivers of horse
drawn vehicles.

Colin Bignell

Nightjar wrote:
On 20/05/2013 19:35, dennis@home wrote:
On 20/05/2013 14:21, Nightjar wrote:
8

It distorts distances because it is made convex in order to give a wider
field of view. The curvature will be smaller on the driver's door mirror
than on the passenger side mirror, but it is there on most cars. You can
check that simply by holding a flat hand mirror above it and comparing
the sizes of what you can see in the two mirrors.

Colin Bignell

That's not distortion, its predictable and useful.

As I said to begin with, it distorts distances. It is useful in that it
allows you to see more. It is less useful when you want to judge speed
and distance.

IME, this is only a problem when a driver changes frequently from a
vehicle with flat mirrors to one with curved mirrors during the day. I
drive many different vehicles, and none of them have flat external
mirrors, but again IME, they all have more or less the same amount of
curvature, so the distortion is fairly predictable.

If you only ever drive one vehicle, then the distortion very quickly
becomes "just the way things are".

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 20/05/2013 20:32, John Williamson wrote:
Nightjar wrote:
....
As I said to begin with, it distorts distances. It is useful in that
it allows you to see more. It is less useful when you want to judge
speed and distance.

IME, this is only a problem when a driver changes frequently from a
vehicle with flat mirrors to one with curved mirrors during the day. I
drive many different vehicles, and none of them have flat external
mirrors, but again IME, they all have more or less the same amount of
curvature, so the distortion is fairly predictable.

If you only ever drive one vehicle, then the distortion very quickly
becomes "just the way things are".


I prefer to use the interior mirror to judge speed and distance. It
works the same whichever side of the road you are driving on. The door
mirrors, IMO, are just there to see what is present except, as I
mentioned elsewhere, when driving a van, which I don't do abroad.

Colin Bignell

Nightjar wrote:
On 20/05/2013 20:32, John Williamson wrote:
Nightjar wrote:
...
As I said to begin with, it distorts distances. It is useful in that
it allows you to see more. It is less useful when you want to judge
speed and distance.

IME, this is only a problem when a driver changes frequently from a
vehicle with flat mirrors to one with curved mirrors during the day. I
drive many different vehicles, and none of them have flat external
mirrors, but again IME, they all have more or less the same amount of
curvature, so the distortion is fairly predictable.

If you only ever drive one vehicle, then the distortion very quickly
becomes "just the way things are".


I prefer to use the interior mirror to judge speed and distance. It
works the same whichever side of the road you are driving on. The door
mirrors, IMO, are just there to see what is present except, as I
mentioned elsewhere, when driving a van, which I don't do abroad.

As the smallest vehicle I've regularly driven for the last 30 years or
so is a long wheel base Land Rover, I got out of the habit of using the
interior mirror for anything other than keeping an eye on the passengers
a *long* time ago.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

Nightjar :
On 20/05/2013 15:51, mully wrote:
Nightjar wrote:
...
By comparison, a smallish concentric marked roundabout has traffic
entering and leaving in all directions, often without signals, short
weaving zones, and highly variable traffic speeds, which I view as
involving a much higher workload.

Can agree on that, and in France the common signal to go straight on (for
exit 2) is to signal as though going all the way round until they reach the
exit

The Highway Code used to give that as the way to signal at roundabouts,
so you sometimes see it in Britain too.

A friend of mine does that. I've never plucked up the courage to ask him
why. I did once query his use of sidelights at dusk, but it didn't get
me anywhere.

--
Mike Barnes

"Mike Barnes" wrote in message
...
Nightjar :
On 20/05/2013 15:51, mully wrote:
Nightjar wrote:
...
By comparison, a smallish concentric marked roundabout has traffic
entering and leaving in all directions, often without signals, short
weaving zones, and highly variable traffic speeds, which I view as
involving a much higher workload.

Can agree on that, and in France the common signal to go straight on
(for
exit 2) is to signal as though going all the way round until they reach
the
exit

The Highway Code used to give that as the way to signal at roundabouts,
so you sometimes see it in Britain too.

A friend of mine does that. I've never plucked up the courage to ask him
why. I did once query his use of sidelights at dusk, but it didn't get
me anywhere.


It's how I was taught in 1971, and it made a lot of sense back then when
roundabouts were designed to a 'formula'. It meant that wherever you went in
the country, and encountered a roundabout that you had not used before, you
could still drive round it safely and confidently according to the 'rules',
which didn't change because the roundabouts were all designed to the same
rules.

Now, I find new roundabouts are often a 'free-for-all' with lanes weaving
about all over the place, with 'instructions' painted on the road in an
effort to get you routed into the correct lane for where you want to go.

They reworked the Barnes Meadow Interchange in Northampton a couple of years
back, and turned what was a perfectly serviceable roundabout / interchange
system, into a multi-lane nightmare that follows no discernable rules, and
often results in drivers cutting you up as they try to find their way around
it ...

Arfa


--
Mike Barnes

On 21/05/2013 02:18, Arfa Daily wrote:


"Mike Barnes" wrote in message
...
Nightjar :
On 20/05/2013 15:51, mully wrote:
Nightjar wrote:
...
By comparison, a smallish concentric marked roundabout has traffic
entering and leaving in all directions, often without signals, short
weaving zones, and highly variable traffic speeds, which I view as
involving a much higher workload.

Can agree on that, and in France the common signal to go straight on
(for
exit 2) is to signal as though going all the way round until they
reach the
exit

The Highway Code used to give that as the way to signal at roundabouts,
so you sometimes see it in Britain too.

A friend of mine does that. I've never plucked up the courage to ask him
why. I did once query his use of sidelights at dusk, but it didn't get
me anywhere.


It's how I was taught in 1971, and it made a lot of sense back then when
roundabouts were designed to a 'formula'. It meant that wherever you
went in the country, and encountered a roundabout that you had not used
before, you could still drive round it safely and confidently according
to the 'rules', which didn't change because the roundabouts were all
designed to the same rules.

Even back then it was wrong. Consider the common 4 junction, 2 lane
roundabout, as depicted in the HC pictures.

Car 1 going from south to east (ie turning right).
Car 2 going from west to north (ie turning left).

Car 1 joins. Car 2 sees right turn indicator, car 1 in right hand lane,
it's clear to join the roundabout and leave it.

Now think about what happens if car 1 is doing what you describe.

Car 1 going from south to north.

Car 2 sees right turn indicator on car 1 coming from south, car 1 in
right hand lane, joins roundabout, car 1 smashes into him as they both
try and take the same exit. Not good. It's even worse if Car 2 is going
from west to east, relying on car 1 being in the correct lane and using
the correct signal.

Because there are many numpties out there who do signal right for a
straight on, I don't trust the signal, which means there are gaps I
can't take.

On 21/05/2013 02:18, Arfa Daily wrote:


Now, I find new roundabouts are often a 'free-for-all' with lanes
weaving about all over the place, with 'instructions' painted on the
road in an effort to get you routed into the correct lane for where you
want to go.

They reworked the Barnes Meadow Interchange in Northampton a couple of
years back, and turned what was a perfectly serviceable roundabout /
interchange system, into a multi-lane nightmare that follows no
discernable rules, and often results in drivers cutting you up as they
try to find their way around it ...


Don't you love those instructions on the road at busy times? The times
when there are vehicles stopped all over them so you have no chance of
reading ...

--
Rod

In message , Mike Barnes
writes
Nightjar :
On 20/05/2013 15:51, mully wrote:
Nightjar wrote:
...
By comparison, a smallish concentric marked roundabout has traffic
entering and leaving in all directions, often without signals, short
weaving zones, and highly variable traffic speeds, which I view as
involving a much higher workload.

Can agree on that, and in France the common signal to go straight on (for
exit 2) is to signal as though going all the way round until they reach the
exit

The Highway Code used to give that as the way to signal at roundabouts,
so you sometimes see it in Britain too.

A friend of mine does that. I've never plucked up the courage to ask him
why. I did once query his use of sidelights at dusk, but it didn't get
me anywhere.

Defensive? Minor aid to help others know you are there?

I try to indicate when leaving a roundabout to give confidence to those
waiting to join. I suppose indicating a *right turn* while circulating
would discourage joiners. Probably superseded by current *give way*
rules.

On painted road markings... I once seriously upset another driver by
forcing my truck into a line of traffic leaving the A41 roundabout in
North Watford, heading towards St. Albans. We met at a subsequent
traffic light set and he pointed out that the road markings indicated a
change of lane to exit. Hidden to me by the volume of traffic.


--
Tim Lamb

On 21/05/2013 02:18, Arfa Daily wrote:


"Mike Barnes" wrote in message
...
Nightjar :
On 20/05/2013 15:51, mully wrote:
Nightjar wrote:
...
By comparison, a smallish concentric marked roundabout has traffic
entering and leaving in all directions, often without signals, short
weaving zones, and highly variable traffic speeds, which I view as
involving a much higher workload.

Can agree on that, and in France the common signal to go straight on
(for
exit 2) is to signal as though going all the way round until they
reach the
exit

The Highway Code used to give that as the way to signal at roundabouts,
so you sometimes see it in Britain too.

A friend of mine does that. I've never plucked up the courage to ask him
why. I did once query his use of sidelights at dusk, but it didn't get
me anywhere.


It's how I was taught in 1971, and it made a lot of sense back then when
roundabouts were designed to a 'formula'. It meant that wherever you
went in the country, and encountered a roundabout that you had not used
before, you could still drive round it safely and confidently according
to the 'rules', which didn't change because the roundabouts were all
designed to the same rules.

I'm surprised it was being taught as late as that. I was taught signal
right only when staying on the roundabout past straight ahead and I
learned quite a few years before you. Possibly it had more to do with
what the individual test centres were looking for than. The main tester
where I went was an ex-Police driver with a reputation for being very
tough; Probably why the first thing I was told to do when I started to
drive was to learn Roadcraft, which then was a government White Paper,
with a section on how to use the bell.

Now, I find new roundabouts are often a 'free-for-all' with lanes
weaving about all over the place, with 'instructions' painted on the
road in an effort to get you routed into the correct lane for where you
want to go.

They reworked the Barnes Meadow Interchange in Northampton a couple of
years back, and turned what was a perfectly serviceable roundabout /
interchange system, into a multi-lane nightmare that follows no
discernable rules, and often results in drivers cutting you up as they
try to find their way around it ...

That is a spiral marked roundabout. Provided you enter in the correct
lane, it should carry you round to your exit with minimal or,
preferably, no need for weaving.

Colin Bignell

Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Mike Barnes
writes
Nightjar :
On 20/05/2013 15:51, mully wrote:
Nightjar wrote:
...
By comparison, a smallish concentric marked roundabout has traffic
entering and leaving in all directions, often without signals, short
weaving zones, and highly variable traffic speeds, which I view as
involving a much higher workload.

Can agree on that, and in France the common signal to go straight on
(for
exit 2) is to signal as though going all the way round until they
reach the
exit

The Highway Code used to give that as the way to signal at roundabouts,
so you sometimes see it in Britain too.

A friend of mine does that. I've never plucked up the courage to ask him
why. I did once query his use of sidelights at dusk, but it didn't get
me anywhere.

Defensive? Minor aid to help others know you are there?

I find just sidelights to be useless unless it's dark, in which case,
you need headlights anyway. Dipped headlights, Scandinavian style
driving lights or nothing. Sidelights only make you *think* that others
can see you better.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 20/05/2013 19:33, dennis@home wrote:
On 20/05/2013 14:16, Nightjar wrote:
On 20/05/2013 10:48, dennis@home wrote:
On 20/05/2013 10:00, Nightjar wrote:

Except when driving a van, which will have a very large flat door
mirror, I would class the interior mirror as the primary aid.

Colin Bignell


I wouldn't, they aren't even compulsory.

They are for cars and vans first used on or after 1st June 1978, except
in the case where an interior mirror would give no view to the rear.
Oddly enough, given that many of them probably don't have a view to the
rear, for Ford Transits, the commencement date was 10th July 1978.

At least one car I drive has the interior mirror where it significantly
obstructs my view forwards and I take it out to drive.

If the vehicle was first used on or after 1st June 1978, and the
interior mirror would give a view to the rear, that is an offence under
the Road Vehicle (Construction and Use Regulations) 1986.

Colin Bignell


Well it wont give me a view to the rear so its fine to remove.
I prefer to see where I am going and can use the other mirrors to see
where I have been.

For the purposes of the Construction and Use Regulations, no view to the
rear would have to because of some construction feature of the vehicle,
such as a van with no rear windows or a bulkhead behind the cab.

Its a 2013 car BTW.

If it is a car, it is unlikely not to be legally required to be fitted
with an interior mirror.


I wonder if its a H&S infringement to supply a mirror that interferes
with the vehicles safety?

Is your car a workplace? If not, H&S does not apply.

Colin Bignell

"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 21/05/2013 02:18, Arfa Daily wrote:


"Mike Barnes" wrote in message
...
Nightjar :
On 20/05/2013 15:51, mully wrote:
Nightjar wrote:
...
By comparison, a smallish concentric marked roundabout has traffic
entering and leaving in all directions, often without signals, short
weaving zones, and highly variable traffic speeds, which I view as
involving a much higher workload.

Can agree on that, and in France the common signal to go straight on
(for
exit 2) is to signal as though going all the way round until they
reach the
exit

The Highway Code used to give that as the way to signal at roundabouts,
so you sometimes see it in Britain too.

A friend of mine does that. I've never plucked up the courage to ask him
why. I did once query his use of sidelights at dusk, but it didn't get
me anywhere.


It's how I was taught in 1971, and it made a lot of sense back then when
roundabouts were designed to a 'formula'. It meant that wherever you
went in the country, and encountered a roundabout that you had not used
before, you could still drive round it safely and confidently according
to the 'rules', which didn't change because the roundabouts were all
designed to the same rules.

I'm surprised it was being taught as late as that. I was taught signal
right only when staying on the roundabout past straight ahead and I
learned quite a few years before you. Possibly it had more to do with what
the individual test centres were looking for than.


The basic 'rule' that I was taught was if you were travelling around a two
lane roundabout by more than one exit, you should take the inside lane and
indicate right until you were about to leave, and then indicate left. I was
also taught that you should be aware of drivers moving from the inside lane
to the outside in order to leave the roundabout. On any two lane roundabout,
it is a fact that you are going to have people crossing from right to left
in front of you, no matter how many exits they are going round. It always
seemed to work ok for me, no matter where I was in the country on unfamiliar
territory. On dual carriageway roundabouts, where the approach, the
roundabout itself and the main exit are all two lanes, I think it works
better for the people only going one exit to use the outside lane to just
'slide' round the edge, allowing those doing a similar thing at the next
junction round to just 'come on' without conflict from those drivers who
just go around the outside lane (without any indications), no matter how
many exits they are going to pass. Of course, the way that it is taught now
is that if you are going 'straight on', you use the outside lane, and don't
indicate until you are leaving - and most don't even do that . The trouble
is 'straight on' has no real definition, and is open to interpretation. It
could be one, two or even three junctions round. This is why I always felt
that 'more than one exit' represented a 'rule' that could be followed at any
(unknown) roundabout.


The main tester
where I went was an ex-Police driver with a reputation for being very
tough; Probably why the first thing I was told to do when I started to
drive was to learn Roadcraft, which then was a government White Paper,
with a section on how to use the bell.

Now, I find new roundabouts are often a 'free-for-all' with lanes
weaving about all over the place, with 'instructions' painted on the
road in an effort to get you routed into the correct lane for where you
want to go.

They reworked the Barnes Meadow Interchange in Northampton a couple of
years back, and turned what was a perfectly serviceable roundabout /
interchange system, into a multi-lane nightmare that follows no
discernable rules, and often results in drivers cutting you up as they
try to find their way around it ...

That is a spiral marked roundabout. Provided you enter in the correct
lane, it should carry you round to your exit with minimal or, preferably,
no need for weaving.

Yes, very nice, but tell that to all the people who *do* weave around and
cut you up on it, because a) they can't figure the markings and the lanings
and the signage, and b) they are locals who remember it before it was
reworked, when it did a good job. On the exit into town, they opened it up
into 4 lanes at one point, (I believe that this whole thing was originally
stated as being something to do with putting in a car-share lane or some
such that was never actually done) but within a short distance, it all
funnels down into one lane. Coming back the other way, it used to work
perfectly if you came down the outside lane with the intention of joining
the A45 eastbound. The laning led you towards the centre track on the
roundabout, which led you round to take the outside lane on the slip road,
to join the dual carriageway. The inside lane of the slip continued on as a
joining lane, and stayed there for about a mile, until it exited at the next
junction. Since they reworked it, if you now approach the roundabout in the
outside lane, you become 'forced' into the inside lane of the roundabout,
which then doesn't allow you to exit onto the A45 joining slip, without
crossing a ghost island. Even more stupidly, when they first did the
rebuild, the ghost island was a 'real' one, but it caused so much trouble
with people being forced counter-intuitively to its right, and then not
being able to correct because of its presence, that they had to get rid of
it. That alone says to me that it is a poor 'committee' design.

Arfa

Colin Bignell

On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 11:55:37 AM UTC+1, John Williamson wrote:
Tim Lamb wrote:

In message , Mike Barnes

writes

Nightjar :

On 20/05/2013 15:51, mully wrote:

Nightjar wrote:

...

By comparison, a smallish concentric marked roundabout has traffic

entering and leaving in all directions, often without signals, short

weaving zones, and highly variable traffic speeds, which I view as

involving a much higher workload.



Can agree on that, and in France the common signal to go straight on

(for

exit 2) is to signal as though going all the way round until they

reach the

exit



The Highway Code used to give that as the way to signal at roundabouts,

so you sometimes see it in Britain too.



A friend of mine does that. I've never plucked up the courage to ask him

why. I did once query his use of sidelights at dusk, but it didn't get

me anywhere.



Defensive? Minor aid to help others know you are there?



I find just sidelights to be useless unless it's dark, in which case,

you need headlights anyway. Dipped headlights, Scandinavian style

driving lights or nothing. Sidelights only make you *think* that others

can see you better.



--

Tciao for Now!



John.

I prefer to call side lights parking lights which is all they should be used for anyway.

The recent advent of driving lights and increasing number of cars with automatic headlights should eventually cure a lot of the mis-use of car lights, not to mention the automotive jewellery (Fog lights)

On 22/05/2013 08:45, fred wrote:
On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 11:55:37 AM UTC+1, John Williamson wrote:
Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Mike Barnes
writes
....
A friend of mine does that. I've never plucked up the courage to ask him
why. I did once query his use of sidelights at dusk, but it didn't get
me anywhere.

Defensive? Minor aid to help others know you are there?

I find just sidelights to be useless unless it's dark, in which case,
you need headlights anyway. Dipped headlights, Scandinavian style
driving lights or nothing. Sidelights only make you *think* that others
can see you better.

I prefer to call side lights parking lights which is all they should be used for anyway.

In the legislation they are called position lights, a name that probably
dates back to when you could have the headlights close together, as in
Mk1 Land Rovers. To anybody in the habit of using them by themselves in
a built-up area, once a common practice, a parking light probably means
a single bulb lamp, showing white in one direction and red in the other,
that you clipped over the top of the door window when parking at night.

The recent advent of driving lights and increasing number of cars with automatic headlights should eventually cure a lot of the mis-use of car lights, not to mention the automotive jewellery (Fog lights)

At one time, if you used dipped headlights in a built-up area, you stood
a good chance of getting main beams turned on in your face. If you had
halogen lights when they were new, it was virtually guaranteed.

Colin Bignell

In article , Nightjar
wrote:
On 22/05/2013 08:45, fred wrote:
On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 11:55:37 AM UTC+1, John Williamson wrote:
Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Mike
Barnes writes
...
A friend of mine does that. I've never plucked up the courage to ask
him why. I did once query his use of sidelights at dusk, but it
didn't get me anywhere.

Defensive? Minor aid to help others know you are there?

I find just sidelights to be useless unless it's dark, in which case,
you need headlights anyway. Dipped headlights, Scandinavian style
driving lights or nothing. Sidelights only make you *think* that
others can see you better.

I prefer to call side lights parking lights which is all they should be
used for anyway.

In the legislation they are called position lights, a name that probably
dates back to when you could have the headlights close together, as in
Mk1 Land Rovers. To anybody in the habit of using them by themselves in
a built-up area, once a common practice, a parking light probably means
a single bulb lamp, showing white in one direction and red in the other,
that you clipped over the top of the door window when parking at night.

my father's one had an electromagnet, so it stuck to the side of teh car
when plugged in.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 9:11:49 AM UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
On 22/05/2013 08:45, fred wrote:

On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 11:55:37 AM UTC+1, John Williamson wrote:

Tim Lamb wrote:

In message , Mike Barnes

writes

...

A friend of mine does that. I've never plucked up the courage to ask him

why. I did once query his use of sidelights at dusk, but it didn't get

me anywhere.



Defensive? Minor aid to help others know you are there?



I find just sidelights to be useless unless it's dark, in which case,

you need headlights anyway. Dipped headlights, Scandinavian style

driving lights or nothing. Sidelights only make you *think* that others

can see you better.



I prefer to call side lights parking lights which is all they should be used for anyway.



In the legislation they are called position lights, a name that probably

dates back to when you could have the headlights close together, as in

Mk1 Land Rovers. To anybody in the habit of using them by themselves in

a built-up area, once a common practice, a parking light probably means

a single bulb lamp, showing white in one direction and red in the other,

that you clipped over the top of the door window when parking at night.



The recent advent of driving lights and increasing number of cars with automatic headlights should eventually cure a lot of the mis-use of car lights, not to mention the automotive jewellery (Fog lights)



At one time, if you used dipped headlights in a built-up area, you stood

a good chance of getting main beams turned on in your face. If you had

halogen lights when they were new, it was virtually guaranteed.



Colin Bignell

Yes I remember those little parking lights. In those days Old Bill patrolled on foot the minor streets and would ticket those cars with no lights. I had a car once where the side lights could be turned on on one side only by setting the indicator with the ignition turned off.

Many years ago (like 50 ) Birmingham had a trial run of encouraging people to use dipped headlights within the city. Not sure how it panned out

fred wrote:


Yes I remember those little parking lights. In those days Old Bill patrolled on foot the minor streets and would ticket those cars with no lights. I had a car once where the side lights could be turned on on one side only by setting the indicator with the ignition turned off.

1970s Fords did that. I think our works 07 plate Focus still does.
--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 22/05/2013 11:13, fred wrote:

Yes I remember those little parking lights. In those days Old Bill
patrolled on foot the minor streets and would ticket those cars with
no lights. I had a car once where the side lights could be turned on
on one side only by setting the indicator with the ignition turned
off.


A bit pointless IMO as the law requires the lights to be on both sides
where parking lights are required.

On 22/05/2013 12:59, dennis@home wrote:
On 22/05/2013 11:13, fred wrote:

Yes I remember those little parking lights. In those days Old Bill
patrolled on foot the minor streets and would ticket those cars with
no lights. I had a car once where the side lights could be turned on
on one side only by setting the indicator with the ignition turned
off.

My rotary main light switch has parking light left and parking light
right positions.

A bit pointless IMO as the law requires the lights to be on both sides
where parking lights are required.

However, that is not the law in all countries and, at one time, it was
not the law in the UK, hence the clip-on parking lights I mentioned.

Colin Bignell

dennis@home wrote:
On 22/05/2013 11:13, fred wrote:

Yes I remember those little parking lights. In those days Old Bill
patrolled on foot the minor streets and would ticket those cars with
no lights. I had a car once where the side lights could be turned on
on one side only by setting the indicator with the ignition turned
off.


A bit pointless IMO as the law requires the lights to be on both sides
where parking lights are required.

At the time when this facility was first introduced, it didn't.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article , Nightjar
wrote:
On 22/05/2013 08:45, fred wrote:
On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 11:55:37 AM UTC+1, John Williamson wrote:
Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Mike
Barnes writes
...
A friend of mine does that. I've never plucked up the courage to ask
him why. I did once query his use of sidelights at dusk, but it
didn't get me anywhere.

Defensive? Minor aid to help others know you are there?

I find just sidelights to be useless unless it's dark, in which case,
you need headlights anyway. Dipped headlights, Scandinavian style
driving lights or nothing. Sidelights only make you *think* that
others can see you better.

I prefer to call side lights parking lights which is all they should be
used for anyway.

In the legislation they are called position lights, a name that probably
dates back to when you could have the headlights close together, as in
Mk1 Land Rovers. To anybody in the habit of using them by themselves in
a built-up area, once a common practice, a parking light probably means
a single bulb lamp, showing white in one direction and red in the other,
that you clipped over the top of the door window when parking at night.

my father's one had an electromagnet, so it stuck to the side of teh car
when plugged in.


And the battery wasn't flat in the morning ... ?

Arfa


--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

"fred" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 9:11:49 AM UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
On 22/05/2013 08:45, fred wrote:

On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 11:55:37 AM UTC+1, John Williamson wrote:

Tim Lamb wrote:

In message , Mike
Barnes

writes

...

A friend of mine does that. I've never plucked up the courage to ask
him

why. I did once query his use of sidelights at dusk, but it didn't
get

me anywhere.



Defensive? Minor aid to help others know you are there?



I find just sidelights to be useless unless it's dark, in which case,

you need headlights anyway. Dipped headlights, Scandinavian style

driving lights or nothing. Sidelights only make you *think* that
others

can see you better.



I prefer to call side lights parking lights which is all they should be
used for anyway.



In the legislation they are called position lights, a name that probably

dates back to when you could have the headlights close together, as in

Mk1 Land Rovers. To anybody in the habit of using them by themselves in

a built-up area, once a common practice, a parking light probably means

a single bulb lamp, showing white in one direction and red in the other,

that you clipped over the top of the door window when parking at night.



The recent advent of driving lights and increasing number of cars with
automatic headlights should eventually cure a lot of the mis-use of car
lights, not to mention the automotive jewellery (Fog lights)



At one time, if you used dipped headlights in a built-up area, you stood

a good chance of getting main beams turned on in your face. If you had

halogen lights when they were new, it was virtually guaranteed.



Colin Bignell

Yes I remember those little parking lights. In those days Old Bill
patrolled on foot the minor streets and would ticket those cars with no
lights. I had a car once where the side lights could be turned on on one
side only by setting the indicator with the ignition turned off.

That's quite common. The Ford Fester that I had before my current car did
it. To be honest, I've never checked on this one, but it is another Ford, so
it might ...

Arfa

Many years ago (like 50 ) Birmingham had a trial run of encouraging people
to use dipped headlights within the city. Not sure how it panned out

On 23/05/2013 01:27, Arfa Daily wrote:


"charles" wrote in message
...
In article , Nightjar
wrote:
....
In the legislation they are called position lights, a name that probably
dates back to when you could have the headlights close together, as in
Mk1 Land Rovers. To anybody in the habit of using them by themselves in
a built-up area, once a common practice, a parking light probably means
a single bulb lamp, showing white in one direction and red in the other,
that you clipped over the top of the door window when parking at night.

my father's one had an electromagnet, so it stuck to the side of teh car
when plugged in.


And the battery wasn't flat in the morning ... ?

That was the point of having a single 5 watt bulb. You could run that
off a battery for a couple of nights and still have a good chance of
starting the car, even with the measly batteries used in the 1950s and
dynamo charging.

Colin Bignell

Nightjar :
On 23/05/2013 01:27, Arfa Daily wrote:


"charles" wrote in message
...
In article , Nightjar
wrote:
...
In the legislation they are called position lights, a name that probably
dates back to when you could have the headlights close together, as in
Mk1 Land Rovers. To anybody in the habit of using them by themselves in
a built-up area, once a common practice, a parking light probably means
a single bulb lamp, showing white in one direction and red in the other,
that you clipped over the top of the door window when parking at night.

my father's one had an electromagnet, so it stuck to the side of teh car
when plugged in.


And the battery wasn't flat in the morning ... ?

That was the point of having a single 5 watt bulb. You could run that
off a battery for a couple of nights and still have a good chance of
starting the car, even with the measly batteries used in the 1950s and
dynamo charging.

I modified one by adding a light-level detector so that the bulb stopped
drawing current at dawn. That was advanced technology back then.

But I take Arfa's point about the electromagnet. The usual method was to
jam the parking light in place with the window. I can't see why you'd
want the extra current drain of an electromagnet, and presumably a
tendency to fall off when the battery inevitably ran down.

--
Mike Barnes

On 23/05/2013 09:18, Mike Barnes wrote:
Nightjar :
On 23/05/2013 01:27, Arfa Daily wrote:


"charles" wrote in message
...
In article , Nightjar
wrote:
...
In the legislation they are called position lights, a name that probably
dates back to when you could have the headlights close together, as in
Mk1 Land Rovers. To anybody in the habit of using them by themselves in
a built-up area, once a common practice, a parking light probably means
a single bulb lamp, showing white in one direction and red in the other,
that you clipped over the top of the door window when parking at night.

my father's one had an electromagnet, so it stuck to the side of teh car
when plugged in.


And the battery wasn't flat in the morning ... ?

That was the point of having a single 5 watt bulb. You could run that
off a battery for a couple of nights and still have a good chance of
starting the car, even with the measly batteries used in the 1950s and
dynamo charging.

I modified one by adding a light-level detector so that the bulb stopped
drawing current at dawn. That was advanced technology back then.

But I take Arfa's point about the electromagnet. The usual method was to
jam the parking light in place with the window. I can't see why you'd
want the extra current drain of an electromagnet, and presumably a
tendency to fall off when the battery inevitably ran down.

Memory is fallible and I assumed it was more probably a permanent magnet.

Colin Bignell

"Nightjar" wrote in message
news
On 23/05/2013 01:27, Arfa Daily wrote:


"charles" wrote in message
...
In article , Nightjar
wrote:
...
In the legislation they are called position lights, a name that
probably
dates back to when you could have the headlights close together, as in
Mk1 Land Rovers. To anybody in the habit of using them by themselves in
a built-up area, once a common practice, a parking light probably means
a single bulb lamp, showing white in one direction and red in the
other,
that you clipped over the top of the door window when parking at night.

my father's one had an electromagnet, so it stuck to the side of teh car
when plugged in.


And the battery wasn't flat in the morning ... ?

That was the point of having a single 5 watt bulb. You could run that off
a battery for a couple of nights and still have a good chance of starting
the car, even with the measly batteries used in the 1950s and dynamo
charging.

Colin Bignell



You miss my point. He said that it hung there by electromagnet when it was
plugged in, and no electromagnet strong enough to hold a small parking
light, is going to be down at 5 watts on its consumption. And even if it
was, that, plus the 5 watts of the bulb, would still be the better part of
one amp, and given the small size and lack of sophistication of car
batteries back then, and the fact that they were charged by a dynamo barely
adequate for the job, I would think that a 14 hour (6pm until 8am) overnight
operation of such a light, would leave the battery seriously depleted.

I would imagine that it was actually a permanent magnet. In fact, I've a
vague recollection of owning one - although it might have been an
over-the-window one ...

Arfa

On 23/05/2013 10:20, Arfa Daily wrote:


"Nightjar" wrote in message
news
On 23/05/2013 01:27, Arfa Daily wrote:


"charles" wrote in message
...
In article , Nightjar
wrote:
...
In the legislation they are called position lights, a name that
probably
dates back to when you could have the headlights close together, as in
Mk1 Land Rovers. To anybody in the habit of using them by
themselves in
a built-up area, once a common practice, a parking light probably
means
a single bulb lamp, showing white in one direction and red in the
other,
that you clipped over the top of the door window when parking at
night.

my father's one had an electromagnet, so it stuck to the side of teh
car
when plugged in.


And the battery wasn't flat in the morning ... ?

That was the point of having a single 5 watt bulb. You could run that
off a battery for a couple of nights and still have a good chance of
starting the car, even with the measly batteries used in the 1950s and
dynamo charging.

Colin Bignell



You miss my point. He said that it hung there by electromagnet when it
was plugged in, and no electromagnet strong enough to hold a small
parking light, is going to be down at 5 watts on its consumption. And
even if it was, that, plus the 5 watts of the bulb, would still be the
better part of one amp, and given the small size and lack of
sophistication of car batteries back then, and the fact that they were
charged by a dynamo barely adequate for the job, I would think that a 14
hour (6pm until 8am) overnight operation of such a light, would leave
the battery seriously depleted.

Why wouldn't it be possible to put the coil in series with the lamp?
Its DC so it wouldn't affect the lamp if it were thick enough and
doesn't need to dissipate power if the field is static.
The only loss would be the coils resistance.
I doubt if you would need many turns as you have about half an amp of
current flowing.

In article , Arfa Daily
wrote:


"Nightjar" wrote in message
news
On 23/05/2013 01:27, Arfa Daily wrote:


"charles" wrote in message
...
In article , Nightjar
wrote:
...
In the legislation they are called position lights, a name that
probably dates back to when you could have the headlights close
together, as in Mk1 Land Rovers. To anybody in the habit of using
them by themselves in a built-up area, once a common practice, a
parking light probably means a single bulb lamp, showing white in
one direction and red in the other, that you clipped over the top
of the door window when parking at night.

my father's one had an electromagnet, so it stuck to the side of teh
car when plugged in.


And the battery wasn't flat in the morning ... ?

That was the point of having a single 5 watt bulb. You could run that
off a battery for a couple of nights and still have a good chance of
starting the car, even with the measly batteries used in the 1950s and
dynamo charging.

Colin Bignell



You miss my point. He said that it hung there by electromagnet when it
was plugged in, and no electromagnet strong enough to hold a small
parking light, is going to be down at 5 watts on its consumption. And
even if it was, that, plus the 5 watts of the bulb, would still be the
better part of one amp, and given the small size and lack of
sophistication of car batteries back then, and the fact that they were
charged by a dynamo barely adequate for the job, I would think that a 14
hour (6pm until 8am) overnight operation of such a light, would leave
the battery seriously depleted.

I would imagine that it was actually a permanent magnet. In fact, I've a
vague recollection of owning one - although it might have been an
over-the-window one ...

you might be right about the permanent magnet but I don't recall the device
being used overnight; but perhaps for 2 or 3 hours when the car was parking
in a vulnerable position. with one bulb it would use ony 1/5 of the power
that would have been use if the side lights + number plate light had been
on.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

polygonum wrote:
On 21/05/2013 02:18, Arfa Daily wrote:


Now, I find new roundabouts are often a 'free-for-all' with lanes
weaving about all over the place, with 'instructions' painted on the
road in an effort to get you routed into the correct lane for where
you want to go.

They reworked the Barnes Meadow Interchange in Northampton a couple
of years back, and turned what was a perfectly serviceable
roundabout / interchange system, into a multi-lane nightmare that
follows no discernable rules, and often results in drivers cutting
you up as they try to find their way around it ...


Don't you love those instructions on the road at busy times? The times
when there are vehicles stopped all over them so you have no chance of
reading ...

You would not believe how many drivers I let change lanes at a roundabout
near me when they have realised that they are in the wrong lane. LH lane
left turn only - RH lane staight on and turn right. A simple sign on a post
before the road splits into two is all drivers who do not know the road
need.



--
Adam

"ARW" wrote in message
...
polygonum wrote:
On 21/05/2013 02:18, Arfa Daily wrote:


Now, I find new roundabouts are often a 'free-for-all' with lanes
weaving about all over the place, with 'instructions' painted on the
road in an effort to get you routed into the correct lane for where
you want to go.

They reworked the Barnes Meadow Interchange in Northampton a couple
of years back, and turned what was a perfectly serviceable
roundabout / interchange system, into a multi-lane nightmare that
follows no discernable rules, and often results in drivers cutting
you up as they try to find their way around it ...


Don't you love those instructions on the road at busy times? The times
when there are vehicles stopped all over them so you have no chance of
reading ...

You would not believe how many drivers I let change lanes at a roundabout
near me when they have realised that they are in the wrong lane. LH lane
left turn only - RH lane staight on and turn right. A simple sign on a
post before the road splits into two is all drivers who do not know the
road need.
--
Adam

It wouldn't be so bad if roundabouts were consistent in which lanes went
where, and if a little more thought was given when deciding this. On one
near me, they put in an extra lane for 50 yards or so, at the far left. Now
as the first exit from this roundabout is a dual carriageway ringroad, and
the 'straight on' is traffic light controlled actually on the roundabout to
allow the zombies to come out of the Tesco store that's there, and therefore
causes traffic to stack up around the roundabout when the lights are at red,
you'd have thought that the new lane would have been left turn only, so
people wanting to turn onto the ringroad had a clear run at it. But no. They
made it straight on and left, and changed what was then the far right lane
to right only. So lots of people going straight on stick to that left hand
lane, and block it up because they can't then go anywhere, because somewhere
up ahead on the roundabout, the lights are against them. And of course,
there is a box junction on the roundabout in an effort to stop them clogging
the roundabout itself for stuff coming round from the other roads, so that
blocks the left lane even longer. It's so frustrating sitting in that line
of traffic, able to se that the exit road is completely clear, and not being
able to get to it, as the straight-ons crawl onto the roundabout, one at a
time ...

A little bit of thought could have made this work so much better.

Arfa

On 21/05/2013 08:22, polygonum wrote:


Don't you love those instructions on the road at busy times? The times
when there are vehicles stopped all over them so you have no chance of
reading ...


Or when there are traffic lights on the roundabout and even if you know
the correct lane it's impossible to enter it because someone else is
parked in that spot waiting for the lights to change.

--
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