Simon Finnigan wrote:


I spent a few years tutoring and demonstrating degree level stuff at uni,
when doing my post-grad stuff. The difference in ability between when I
started the course myself, an when I stopped demonstrating 8 years later
was amazing. I had to teach a group of radiology students what the
gradient of a line graph was, how to calculate it and what it actually
meant. These students had at least a good gcse grade, if not a level, in
maths and where doing a scientific degree. the grades these days are a
useless way of determining ability, which is a real shame. As are the
results of letting thousands of people leave the education system thinking
they're very intelligent when they are only average. Cue disappointment at
best, a wasted lifetime at worst.

God help this miserable country

--
Tim Watts

I'm sorry if you find this offensive, but I am equally annoyed by the
assumption all households are tooled up for such provisions at primary
school age.

Offensive, nah. I just don't think it's good to dig your heels in over
an OS, which is how it comes across. You could pick up my XP machine on
EBay for less than £100, but it does everything I need, so it's hardly
expensive to conform (which IME is strangely important to kids).

My grandkids are in a Mac household, yet they seem remarkably well
adjusted :-)

stuart noble wrote:


I'm sorry if you find this offensive, but I am equally annoyed by the
assumption all households are tooled up for such provisions at primary
school age.

Offensive, nah. I just don't think it's good to dig your heels in over
an OS, which is how it comes across.

Hi Stuart,

Oddly, it *is* meant to come across like that

I've had enough experience of MS to make a very overt decision to dig my
heels in hard on this.

3 reasons:

1) I don't want to maintain a crap OS (which has been my experience when I
have had to deal with it professionally). I'm a linux specialist and know
very little about the deep internals of Windows now.

2) It's good for the kids' souls to get used to something other that what
the schools will shove at them. I do not want them to conform to the "MS is
the only option" by default, that afflicts so many.

3) I want to give them a system that integrates cleanly with my servers and
they cannot break (trivially anyway).

Like I say, if they want MS Windows, they can pay for it (IIRC they can get
a serious educational discount anyway but it will still hurt), install it
(with some oversight and guidance from me) and when it breaks (it will),
they can fix it or reinstall it. At least then, they will have a holistic
view of the damn thing.

But I bet you a fiver that as soon as money is mentioned, Linux or *BSD will
suddenly seem very attractive. Daughter's already seen my initial install of
Xubuntu and likes the look of it. I just need to do the systems integration
(NFS, Kerberos) so she'll be working off a backed up fileserver, then it's
hers for as long as it lives.

I do have some work to do on the email side (not that she needs that yet)
but I want to fix her account as a moderated list where I'm the moderator
for all new material. I can gradually whitelist her friends then - but
that's a job for a couple of years down the line.

I also need to fix the firewall at the border to block as much crap as
possible (with this probably: http://dansguardian.org/?page=whatisdg )

These are the things I am better spending my time on than fixing ditsy crap
OSes.

You could pick up my XP machine on
EBay for less than £100, but it does everything I need, so it's hardly
expensive to conform (which IME is strangely important to kids).

Right now, it will be money that has to be spent again in a few years.
Rather wait until they need a proper system then let them build it from
parts - they'll learn more than they do from the wibbly execises they get
now!

My grandkids are in a Mac household, yet they seem remarkably well
adjusted :-)

Good for them. Not that I'm an Apple fan, but at least it breaks the notion
that "there can only be one!"

Cheers

Tim

--
Tim Watts

On 19 May 2011 13:34:54 GMT, Simon Finnigan
wrote:

I had to teach a group of radiology students what the gradient
of a line graph was, how to calculate it and what it actually meant.

Very strange. My older kids were taught this well before GCSEs.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

On Thu, 19 May 2011 11:24:04 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I don't think they have paper at schools any more ;-)

Not even in the toilets?

Toilets?

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Thu, 19 May 2011 12:22:04 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

Mark wrote:
I had a brief look at LibreOffice but it didn't seem to work very well
(menu options grayed out for no obvious reason).

No problems with the pre-packaged one in Ubuntu 11.04 (latest) not with
OpenOffice in previous versions. Are you hand installing it - under what OS?

Win XP.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

Mark wrote:

On Thu, 19 May 2011 12:22:04 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

Mark wrote:
I had a brief look at LibreOffice but it didn't seem to work very well
(menu options grayed out for no obvious reason).

No problems with the pre-packaged one in Ubuntu 11.04 (latest) not with
OpenOffice in previous versions. Are you hand installing it - under what
OS?

Win XP.

Hmm sorry can't help.

I have had OpenOffice a couple of years back work fine on XP but maybe
something went bad in the transition to LibreOffice - maybe try an older
version of OpenOffice - should be knocking around on a mirror somewhere
(maybe www.mirrorservice.org.uk)

Maybe here?
http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/d...rg/packages/2/

--
Tim Watts

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:


I refuse to have any MS in the house and if it weren't for this old
laptop,
she'd be unlucky because I generally don't let the kids near my good one
(too much previous abuse).

That's just mean, its about freedom and if someone wants to use windows
they should be able to, just as someone should be free to use linux.

My house, my laptop, my network - end of. When they can pay for and set up
their own MS Windows OS they can. If they get too many
trojans/zombies/virus, I will cut their network connection off until they
learn

In the meantime, they get what they are given.

It's all about educating them in the ways of the light - darkness will
find
it's own way to advertise itself - having used at least one other system,
they will be in a position of knowledge to make an informed choice.

However you can't expect others to change their preferences just because
you can't work with them, its up to you to change yours if you need/want
the stuff.

No it isn't. If the school expect stuff to run on *my* systems, it is up
to
them to provide material in open and/or supported formats. I'll make the
effort to support as many formats as I can but if it is totally MS only,
forget it.

They are under no obligation to support every format just so the odd odd
person can use it.


It's not exactly an insoluable problem. If they can't work here, the kids
can stay at school and use their computers. I am not paying for and
wasting
time maintaining sub rate OSes which risk filling my networks with crap
just
to keep them happy. Again, end of.

Same old arguments.. I have been running windows on the internet since 98
was new and have never got a virus yet.
Sure anyone can be really stupid and install a trojan but they can do that
on any OS.



I wonder if you refuse to buy petrol or use motor vehicles because the
oil
companies make profits?

No - because I buy oil that meets the standard required by my engine.
There
are several suppliers of each standard - I have a choice.

Or refuse mains electricity and water because they are run by profit
making monopolies?

If someone offered me free reliable electricity I'd fecking take it.
Wouldn't you? Even more so if the paying suppliers had erratic suplly full
of spikes and brown outs which knackered my equipment (spot on analogy
BTW).

But a false analogy though.


Everyone offers me "standard electricity at 230V/50Hz nominal" so it all
works and I buy the cheapest.

You are missing the point - I expect schools to work with material that
supports open standards or has viewers for a variety of systems so I get a
choice of systems to run it on.

I expect schools to use what's best for the job.


Don't forget MAC only families - same issues as linux or *BSD.

Probably not, Mac software tends to work OK with windows files.


The paying is a secondary aspect - but since I have no other reason to pay
MS money, why should I start now just because the school has a bent
website
or ships me some unfathomable file format?

At least most of the .doc and .xls stuff works OK with LibreOffice, but if
it doesn't, words will be had - particularly as the fix is trivial and
free
for them (save as older format).

Maybe refuse drugs because the companies make huge profits.
Why refuse to use M$ stuff, its just products from another company.
They aren't even expensive.


You can stop now...

OK.

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
stuart noble wrote:


I'm sorry if you find this offensive, but I am equally annoyed by the
assumption all households are tooled up for such provisions at primary
school age.

Offensive, nah. I just don't think it's good to dig your heels in over
an OS, which is how it comes across.

Hi Stuart,

Oddly, it *is* meant to come across like that

I've had enough experience of MS to make a very overt decision to dig my
heels in hard on this.

3 reasons:

1) I don't want to maintain a crap OS (which has been my experience when I
have had to deal with it professionally). I'm a linux specialist and know
very little about the deep internals of Windows now.

2) It's good for the kids' souls to get used to something other that what
the schools will shove at them. I do not want them to conform to the "MS
is
the only option" by default, that afflicts so many.

3) I want to give them a system that integrates cleanly with my servers
and
they cannot break (trivially anyway).

Like I say, if they want MS Windows, they can pay for it (IIRC they can
get
a serious educational discount anyway but it will still hurt), install it
(with some oversight and guidance from me) and when it breaks (it will),
they can fix it or reinstall it. At least then, they will have a holistic
view of the damn thing.

You didn't say you were going to make them install and administer Linux, I
think that is a good idea.
They really should know how to do so.
You could even get them to "fix" the problems in the software so it does
work with the stuff the school provides.


But I bet you a fiver that as soon as money is mentioned, Linux or *BSD
will
suddenly seem very attractive. Daughter's already seen my initial install
of
Xubuntu and likes the look of it. I just need to do the systems
integration
(NFS, Kerberos) so she'll be working off a backed up fileserver, then it's
hers for as long as it lives.

Oh, you aren't going to get them to install and administer Linux then,
that's a shame, a holistic experience would benefit them.
Especially if they decide to buy/build a machine in a couple of years.

dennis@home wrote:


They are under no obligation to support every format just so the odd odd
person can use it.

I am under no obligation to support every format people fancy either.

Especially when the cost to them is effectively zero because they can choose
to send out supported formats.

Or in your world, it would be OK for them to decide AutoCAD was good
software to use then expect everyone to buy a copy?

As for web pages, there really is no excuse. It is not my job to compensate
for someone else's ineptitude.


Same old arguments.. I have been running windows on the internet since 98
was new and have never got a virus yet.
Sure anyone can be really stupid and install a trojan but they can do that
on any OS.

And for every time some says that, I can think of a person who did get
crapped on - including, 3 or so months ago someone who picked up a virus
that was unknown to a fully maintained and uptodate Symantec scanner on
their PC.

And it is a lot harder in a real OS to click on a web link and pick up a
trojan that promptly roots your system and goes zombie.

Well, I suppose at least my we server logs are no longer full of Nimbda and
CodeRed "attacks" from hordes of infected Windows boxen so something must be
improving...

If someone offered me free reliable electricity I'd fecking take it.
Wouldn't you? Even more so if the paying suppliers had erratic suplly
full of spikes and brown outs which knackered my equipment (spot on
analogy BTW).

But a false analogy though.

Nope, spot on.

Tell you what - I won't make you use the crap I like and you stop expecting
me to use your crap... Because I like my crap as it has caused me far less
wasted hours than yours.


Everyone offers me "standard electricity at 230V/50Hz nominal" so it all
works and I buy the cheapest.

You are missing the point - I expect schools to work with material that
supports open standards or has viewers for a variety of systems so I get
a choice of systems to run it on.

I expect schools to use what's best for the job.

I suspect they use what they know, which is why I happy to make a fuss and
prove there are alternatives.

Besides, why are they wasting money on commercial software when budgets are
tight? Everythign our primary school does could be done for free if someone
in the LEA bothered to make an effort.


--
Tim Watts

dennis@home wrote:


Oh, you aren't going to get them to install and administer Linux then,
that's a shame, a holistic experience would benefit them.
Especially if they decide to buy/build a machine in a couple of years.

They'll get to do that at the time when they are able. All I said was if
they want Windows, they can manage it themselves. Which will be in some
number of years I expect.

Until then, if I have to do the work, it will be my way, which means linux.

You have a tough time coping with people who have views different to you
don't you?

--
Tim Watts

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...

Besides, why are they wasting money on commercial software when budgets
are
tight? Everythign our primary school does could be done for free if
someone
in the LEA bothered to make an effort.

Ah that's the rub isn't it.. just because linux is free doesn't mean zero
cost.

The reason why most people use windows.. if you have a problem using windows
you can ask lots how and you will get a workable answer. the same is not
true for linux as there are so few users you won't find anyone to help, and
if you do find someone they will be using different software and you will
have to relearn it.
Unless linux can actually get to 10-20% of users it will remain the same.

I expect Google's android will get there before linux.

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:


Oh, you aren't going to get them to install and administer Linux then,
that's a shame, a holistic experience would benefit them.
Especially if they decide to buy/build a machine in a couple of years.

They'll get to do that at the time when they are able. All I said was if
they want Windows, they can manage it themselves. Which will be in some
number of years I expect.

Until then, if I have to do the work, it will be my way, which means
linux.

You have a tough time coping with people who have views different to you
don't you?

I have no problem with that thanks.
I do like to wind up people with irrational beliefs though.

In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
Besides, why are they wasting money on commercial software when
budgets are tight? Everythign our primary school does could be done
for free if someone in the LEA bothered to make an effort.

Ah that's the rub isn't it.. just because linux is free doesn't mean
zero cost.

The reason why most people use windows.. if you have a problem using
windows you can ask lots how and you will get a workable answer. the
same is not true for linux as there are so few users you won't find
anyone to help, and if you do find someone they will be using different
software and you will have to relearn it.

Schools have IT people to sort out problems. They don't tend to have to go
begging for help.

--
*Husbands should come with instructions

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

dennis@home wrote:



"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...

Besides, why are they wasting money on commercial software when budgets
are
tight? Everythign our primary school does could be done for free if
someone
in the LEA bothered to make an effort.

Ah that's the rub isn't it.. just because linux is free doesn't mean zero
cost.

Neither is Windows "free" to support. It takes as much effort as linux. More
so for your average home Joe. Stick and Ubuntu CD/USB in a machine and in
less than an hour (ADSL assumed) you have a working machine with
applications including the latest patches for *everything* with one post
install reboot.

That is not true of Windows if we assume you want Office, Flash, various
drivers etc.

The reason why most people use windows.. if you have a problem using
windows you can ask lots how and you will get a workable answer. the same
is not true for linux as there are so few users you won't find anyone to
help, and if you do find someone they will be using different software and
you will have to relearn it.
Unless linux can actually get to 10-20% of users it will remain the same.

That is only partly true. There is plenty of help available online, in one
place for specifically Ubuntu and you generally get solid answers.

I expect Google's android will get there before linux.

That is likely.

--
Tim Watts

On Thu, 19 May 2011 13:34:54 +0000, Simon Finnigan wrote:

I spent a few years tutoring and demonstrating degree level stuff at
uni, when doing my post-grad stuff. The difference in ability between
when I started the course myself, an when I stopped demonstrating 8
years later was amazing. I had to teach a group of radiology students
what the gradient of a line graph was, how to calculate it and what it
actually meant. These students had at least a good gcse grade, if not a
level, in maths and where doing a scientific degree. the grades these
days are a useless way of determining ability, which is a real shame. As
are the results of letting thousands of people leave the education
system thinking they're very intelligent when they are only average. Cue
disappointment at best, a wasted lifetime at worst.

We require GCSE maths at C. But then we teach it over again, plus part of
the A level, plus some other stuff (discrete maths). The only safe way.



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

dennis@home wrote:



"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:


Oh, you aren't going to get them to install and administer Linux then,
that's a shame, a holistic experience would benefit them.
Especially if they decide to buy/build a machine in a couple of years.

They'll get to do that at the time when they are able. All I said was if
they want Windows, they can manage it themselves. Which will be in some
number of years I expect.

Until then, if I have to do the work, it will be my way, which means
linux.

You have a tough time coping with people who have views different to you
don't you?

I have no problem with that thanks.
I do like to wind up people with irrational beliefs though.

You're not winding me up and my opinions are well rooted in experience of MS
Windows. MS sucks - quite rational after all these years of uncountable
exploits.

I accept every other OS has also had exploits (including MacOSX, Linux,
*BSD, VMS) but none of them on anything like the same scale.

You have to ask - when you see a crashed out ATM or info screen somewhere -
which OS screen is it displaying 90+% of the time? And, especially with
ATMs, plenty of those don;t run windows for comparitive purposes.

--
Tim Watts

On Thu, 19 May 2011 17:56:10 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

You didn't say you were going to make them install and administer Linux,
I think that is a good idea.

My son has started that with BSD. I got him to build the machine first,
then install it.

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
Besides, why are they wasting money on commercial software when
budgets are tight? Everythign our primary school does could be done
for free if someone in the LEA bothered to make an effort.

Ah that's the rub isn't it.. just because linux is free doesn't mean
zero cost.

The reason why most people use windows.. if you have a problem using
windows you can ask lots how and you will get a workable answer. the
same is not true for linux as there are so few users you won't find
anyone to help, and if you do find someone they will be using different
software and you will have to relearn it.

Schools have IT people to sort out problems. They don't tend to have to go
begging for help.

Most people aren't IT people, nor do they work at schools.

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:



"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...

Besides, why are they wasting money on commercial software when budgets
are
tight? Everythign our primary school does could be done for free if
someone
in the LEA bothered to make an effort.

Ah that's the rub isn't it.. just because linux is free doesn't mean zero
cost.

Neither is Windows "free" to support.

I didn't say it was.

It takes as much effort as linux. More
so for your average home Joe. Stick and Ubuntu CD/USB in a machine and in
less than an hour (ADSL assumed) you have a working machine with
applications including the latest patches for *everything* with one post
install reboot.

That is not true of Windows if we assume you want Office, Flash, various
drivers etc.


Well no, you wouldn't do it that way in a school environment.
You would network boot the machine and download the pre-configured image and
have the machine up and working in about 10 minutes, for windows or any
other OS you chose.

The reason why most people use windows.. if you have a problem using
windows you can ask lots how and you will get a workable answer. the same
is not true for linux as there are so few users you won't find anyone to
help, and if you do find someone they will be using different software
and
you will have to relearn it.
Unless linux can actually get to 10-20% of users it will remain the same.

That is only partly true. There is plenty of help available online, in one
place for specifically Ubuntu and you generally get solid answers.

OK, so I put in my boot CD and get it to wipe windows and install ubuntu.
Now how do I get online with my wireless router (warning this is a tricky
question to answer).


I expect Google's android will get there before linux.

That is likely.

If I can get a good price on a galaxy s2 I will be one of them, if I can't
it will be a HD7 (windows).

In message , Tim Watts
writes
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I tried em, and they had so little stock it wasn't worth it.

That must be warehouse dependant I guess. Even Dartford doesn't have the
full range that you see in store.


Waitrose direct is better.

I have heard of that - might investigate further. But does it suffer from
the "packed in store half of the items are missing" syndrome - especially
for orders where the pick is say late afternoon after all the store vistors
have cleaned out the shelves and the next delivery hasn't come yet?

Seemed to be the problem with Sainsburys...


It's always going to be a problem with the packed in store operation.
ISTR hearing that Tesco (i think) are trialing a warehouse style
operation.

As to Ocado compared to Waitrose direct. It also depends on your local
store. Ours is fairly small, and so has a smaller range anyway compared
to the big store in Cambridge. I think we probably get a better range
overall via Ocado.
--
Chris French

In message , Bob Eager
writes
On Thu, 19 May 2011 12:54:03 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

We got the £99 yearly pass which means delivery is otherwise free (min
spend £40 but that's easy) at any time (bar a few Christmas days I
think).

Ooh - that is interesting... Will check.

It's probably gone up now - not to mention the VAT rise. But still a good
deal. We do well out of Amazon Prime too!


No, it's gone down from last month.
--
Chris French

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:



"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:


Oh, you aren't going to get them to install and administer Linux then,
that's a shame, a holistic experience would benefit them.
Especially if they decide to buy/build a machine in a couple of years.

They'll get to do that at the time when they are able. All I said was if
they want Windows, they can manage it themselves. Which will be in some
number of years I expect.

Until then, if I have to do the work, it will be my way, which means
linux.

You have a tough time coping with people who have views different to you
don't you?

I have no problem with that thanks.
I do like to wind up people with irrational beliefs though.

You're not winding me up and my opinions are well rooted in experience of
MS
Windows. MS sucks - quite rational after all these years of uncountable
exploits.

I accept every other OS has also had exploits (including MacOSX, Linux,
*BSD, VMS) but none of them on anything like the same scale.

Scale is a problem, especially when nobody actually knows how many linux
machines have been exploited.
They don't report back to anywhere and no linux user will ever admit to
having been exploited or the other linux users will jump on him immediately.

Nobody checks that their linux machine hasn't been compromised even after
major problems have been in the field for several months.

There are even cases where the fix has stopped the exploit being used again
but doesn't have any effect on machines that have been compromised.

At least with windows the majority do check occasionally and if updates are
on M$ checks them for you.


You have to ask - when you see a crashed out ATM or info screen
somewhere -
which OS screen is it displaying 90+% of the time? And, especially with
ATMs, plenty of those don;t run windows for comparitive purposes.

I don't have to ask anything about ATMs, I haven't seen enough of them
broken to make a statistically meaningful inference.

"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 19 May 2011 17:56:10 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

You didn't say you were going to make them install and administer Linux,
I think that is a good idea.

My son has started that with BSD. I got him to build the machine first,
then install it.

But BSD is more secure than linux so its easier. 8-)

dennis@home wrote:



"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:



"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...

Besides, why are they wasting money on commercial software when budgets
are
tight? Everythign our primary school does could be done for free if
someone
in the LEA bothered to make an effort.

Ah that's the rub isn't it.. just because linux is free doesn't mean
zero cost.

Neither is Windows "free" to support.

I didn't say it was.

Implied it. Both require some support, one has zero capital cost, which is
cheaper?

It takes as much effort as linux. More
so for your average home Joe. Stick and Ubuntu CD/USB in a machine and in
less than an hour (ADSL assumed) you have a working machine with
applications including the latest patches for *everything* with one post
install reboot.

That is not true of Windows if we assume you want Office, Flash, various
drivers etc.


Well no, you wouldn't do it that way in a school environment.
You would network boot the machine and download the pre-configured image
and have the machine up and working in about 10 minutes, for windows or
any other OS you chose.

Thank you - I have done this before you know...

And who do you think makes your nice pre-configured image?

BTW you can pull the same stunt with linux - but as the auto installer tools
are freely supplied, you don't necessarily need to.

It is also a lot less aggravation to clone linux in a networked environment,
or at least it was as there's none of this SID changng business (though I
accept that may have changed).

And my example still stands for Joe Home User who has to do the initial
stuff from scratch.

The reason why most people use windows.. if you have a problem using
windows you can ask lots how and you will get a workable answer. the
same is not true for linux as there are so few users you won't find
anyone to help, and if you do find someone they will be using different
software and
you will have to relearn it.
Unless linux can actually get to 10-20% of users it will remain the
same.

That is only partly true. There is plenty of help available online, in
one place for specifically Ubuntu and you generally get solid answers.

OK, so I put in my boot CD and get it to wipe windows and install ubuntu.
Now how do I get online with my wireless router (warning this is a tricky
question to answer).

Just like Windows if your driver is not bundled - either copy in down on a
USB stick or jack it in to the ethernet on the router long enough to pull
the initial install.



I expect Google's android will get there before linux.

That is likely.

If I can get a good price on a galaxy s2 I will be one of them, if I can't
it will be a HD7 (windows).

Asus eeePad Transformer kicks ass - a few bugs, but it is early Honeycomb -
nice and quick and generally as slick as my iPhone interface (which I assume
is representative of an iPad).

--
Tim Watts

On 19/05/2011 17:44, dennis@home wrote:
Same old arguments.. I have been running windows on the internet since
98 was new and have never got a virus yet.
Sure anyone can be really stupid and install a trojan but they can do
that on any OS.

me too

It's a lot easier to pick up something nasty on Windows. That is not to
say - as some do - that if you use Mac (or Linux) there is no risk at all.

Andy

dennis@home wrote:

I don't have to ask anything about ATMs, I haven't seen enough of them
broken to make a statistically meaningful inference.

The only colour screen ones (Barclays, NEC?( The standard machine in
2000, anyway) ), FWIW) I've seen showing a BSOD featured Windows XP
Professional. It was easily reproduceable, too, with a number of them
showing the BSOD on introducing my card on the same date.

The green screen ones have never, IME, shown a reboot screen. Thank
goodness, because I *really* needed the cash that day and I knew where
the only green screen one within a dozen or so miles was. The following
day, the Windoze XP ATM I had used previously worked perfectly with the
same card that had crashed three XP machines the previous day. To say I
was surprised that banks used XP on security critical applications would
be understating it.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 19/05/2011 19:23, Bob Eager wrote:

We require GCSE maths at C. But then we teach it over again, plus part of
the A level, plus some other stuff (discrete maths). The only safe way.


I told my son he ought to do A level maths - and he did. And he
reckoned it helped on your courses.

Andy

Tim Watts wrote:
dennis@home wrote:
"Tim Watts" wrote in message
Neither is Windows "free" to support.
I didn't say it was.

Implied it. Both require some support, one has zero capital cost, which is
cheaper?

It depends on the capital and support costs.

Windows may be cheaper overall if you need to retrain your support staff
and users to use whichever version of Linux and whichever office program
suite you use. Training for Ubuntu is not generally transferable to
Debian and vice versa. Then retrain them when Linux changes, and this
happens (On Ubuntu long term support versions, anyway) at about the same
frequency as Windows. I'd say, for a commercial operation, it's pretty
much a dead heat.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 19/05/11 20:40, John Williamson wrote:

It depends on the capital and support costs.

Windows may be cheaper overall if you need to retrain your support staff
and users to use whichever version of Linux and whichever office program
suite you use. Training for Ubuntu is not generally transferable to
Debian and vice versa. Then retrain them when Linux changes, and this
happens (On Ubuntu long term support versions, anyway) at about the same
frequency as Windows. I'd say, for a commercial operation, it's pretty
much a dead heat.

In industry the support costs of Windows and Linux machines are about
the same. It favours Linux if you have a large number of identical
machines because it's easier for one Linux sysadmin to service a large
number of Linux machines. This difference is likely to pretty much
disappear with the next release of Windows.

The real killer is having to support *both* platforms. In general you
need Windows for its desktop applications, the Linux equivalents aren't
quite ready yet. So if you decide on Linux servers you will need both
sets of skills.

That's very important if you have a relatively small IT team. If you
have hundreds of them you can afford to split your team into different
groups.


--
Bernard Peek

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:



"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:



"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...

Besides, why are they wasting money on commercial software when
budgets
are
tight? Everythign our primary school does could be done for free if
someone
in the LEA bothered to make an effort.

Ah that's the rub isn't it.. just because linux is free doesn't mean
zero cost.

Neither is Windows "free" to support.

I didn't say it was.

Implied it. Both require some support, one has zero capital cost, which is
cheaper?

The one with the lowest support costs including training.


It takes as much effort as linux. More
so for your average home Joe. Stick and Ubuntu CD/USB in a machine and
in
less than an hour (ADSL assumed) you have a working machine with
applications including the latest patches for *everything* with one post
install reboot.

That is not true of Windows if we assume you want Office, Flash, various
drivers etc.


Well no, you wouldn't do it that way in a school environment.
You would network boot the machine and download the pre-configured image
and have the machine up and working in about 10 minutes, for windows or
any other OS you chose.

Thank you - I have done this before you know...

So why did you say windows was more difficult?


And who do you think makes your nice pre-configured image?

The IT support, who are probably experts in windows and know nothing of
linux.


BTW you can pull the same stunt with linux

Yes, i said that.

but who is going to prepare the image?

- but as the auto installer tools
are freely supplied, you don't necessarily need to.

It is also a lot less aggravation to clone linux in a networked
environment,
or at least it was as there's none of this SID changng business (though I
accept that may have changed).

And my example still stands for Joe Home User who has to do the initial
stuff from scratch.

It might, you only need to reboot win7 once during the install BTW.


The reason why most people use windows.. if you have a problem using
windows you can ask lots how and you will get a workable answer. the
same is not true for linux as there are so few users you won't find
anyone to help, and if you do find someone they will be using different
software and
you will have to relearn it.
Unless linux can actually get to 10-20% of users it will remain the
same.

That is only partly true. There is plenty of help available online, in
one place for specifically Ubuntu and you generally get solid answers.

OK, so I put in my boot CD and get it to wipe windows and install ubuntu.
Now how do I get online with my wireless router (warning this is a tricky
question to answer).

Just like Windows if your driver is not bundled - either copy in down on a
USB stick or jack it in to the ethernet on the router long enough to pull
the initial install.



I expect Google's android will get there before linux.

That is likely.

If I can get a good price on a galaxy s2 I will be one of them, if I
can't
it will be a HD7 (windows).

Asus eeePad Transformer kicks ass

a bit big for a phone.

- a few bugs, but it is early Honeycomb -
nice and quick and generally as slick as my iPhone interface (which I
assume
is representative of an iPad).

The S2 is better than an iPhone and isn't tied to an evil empire like the
iPhone.

On Thu, 19 May 2011 20:13:37 +0100, chris French wrote:

In message , Bob Eager
writes
On Thu, 19 May 2011 12:54:03 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

We got the £99 yearly pass which means delivery is otherwise free
(min spend £40 but that's easy) at any time (bar a few Christmas days
I think).

Ooh - that is interesting... Will check.

It's probably gone up now - not to mention the VAT rise. But still a
good deal. We do well out of Amazon Prime too!


No, it's gone down from last month.

Oh, that's good. Nearly time to renew!

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Thu, 19 May 2011 20:13:37 +0100, chris French wrote:

In message , Bob Eager
writes
On Thu, 19 May 2011 12:54:03 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

We got the £99 yearly pass which means delivery is otherwise free
(min spend £40 but that's easy) at any time (bar a few Christmas days
I think).

Ooh - that is interesting... Will check.

It's probably gone up now - not to mention the VAT rise. But still a
good deal. We do well out of Amazon Prime too!


No, it's gone down from last month.

Hmm. We paid £99 last year and they say it's £109.99 according to the
website.



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

John Williamson wrote:

Tim Watts wrote:
dennis@home wrote:
"Tim Watts" wrote in message
Neither is Windows "free" to support.
I didn't say it was.

Implied it. Both require some support, one has zero capital cost, which
is cheaper?

It depends on the capital and support costs.

Windows may be cheaper overall if you need to retrain your support staff
and users to use whichever version of Linux and whichever office program
suite you use. Training for Ubuntu is not generally transferable to
Debian and vice versa.

I'd agree if you changed that to "ubuntu vs redhat" - as there are quite a
few differences, although thanks to the LSB, a competant RH person should be
able to find there way around 80% of ubuntu and vice versa. The odd
weirdisms like /etc/sysconfig vs /etc/default - the network config and the
package management systems are the most likely to catch the unwary.

But I didn't find yum hard coming back to Centos 5 from Ubuntu/Debian after
a period of absence. Even kickstart was much the same as back in RH6.2 (2001
vintage).

debian vs ubuntu are extremely close - at least at the server level. OK,
ubuntu uses a lot more Upstart and Debian sticks to init.d/ by default but
the files are in the same place for the most part.

Then retrain them when Linux changes, and this
happens (On Ubuntu long term support versions, anyway) at about the same
frequency as Windows. I'd say, for a commercial operation, it's pretty
much a dead heat.


I find relatively little changes (in a way that breaks stuff - there may be
lots of new features waiting to be taken advantage of) in Ubuntu releases
and things like Upstart and apparmour have been introduced gradually.

eg on my latest server build at home, I tried incremental in place upgrades
from 8.04-10.04-10.10-11.04 in one series of hits and a very few config
files broke (mostly dovecot which whilst bloody good, is famed for constant
config changes - and Postgres 8.4 dropped a few config items and barfed.
Quickly fixed.

I then decided on a Debian 6.0 install after I blew up the RAID doing
something that was asking for trouble (I have backups and I was curious
about how it would handle a change of stripe geometry[1])

Debian 6 took pretty much all my Ubuntu 11.04 config and worked.

[1] I was glad I tried - thanks to better MD features and improved XFS
support in the recent kernels plus a better choice of stripe width, I
quadrupled the speed of my filesystem.

Generally in 2 year space linux upgrades, I have found relatively little
breaks and a relatively few bits of config need tweaking.

That includes Mandrake 9.1-10.2, Ubuntu 8.04-10.04, Debian 5 - Debian 6
all of which I've had to handle on a big scale.

Also, the ease of replicating an accross the board set of basic config on a
new version (cp -av set-of-config to target) beats the crap out of all
versions Windows since 3.1.

Cheers

Tim
--
Tim Watts

On Thu, 19 May 2011 20:29:51 +0100, Andy Champ wrote:

On 19/05/2011 19:23, Bob Eager wrote:

We require GCSE maths at C. But then we teach it over again, plus part
of the A level, plus some other stuff (discrete maths). The only safe
way.


I told my son he ought to do A level maths - and he did. And he
reckoned it helped on your courses.

Andy

What, mine? Did I teach him? Or have we had this conversation before?

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

dennis@home wrote:



Thank you - I have done this before you know...

So why did you say windows was more difficult?

Because it takes me at least a day to get a Windows install "right", from
the initial, the installation of drivers, the apps, the security patches and
several reboots then configuration.

I can do the same on a linux install from cold with no pile-of-config files
in a couple of hours. Less than an hour to install and another hour to tweak
stuff. An hour alone to a usable laptop full off apps if I skip the tweaking
phase.


a bit big for a phone.

That's because it's not a phone


--
Tim Watts

On Thu, 19 May 2011 19:08:38 +0100 Dennis@home wrote :
The reason why most people use windows.. if you have a problem using windows
you can ask lots how and you will get a workable answer. the same is not
true for linux as there are so few users you won't find anyone to help, and
if you do find someone they will be using different software and you will
have to relearn it.
Unless linux can actually get to 10-20% of users it will remain the same.

I used OS/2 for a few years when it was a better DOS than DOS and better
Windows than Windows. Would I have advised other people to adopt it - no, for
just the reason you say, if people have problems with Windows lots of people
know what to do.

Same with boilers (to get back on topic) - unless you can fix it yourself,
stick to tried and tested models and industry standard control systems.

--
Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on', Melbourne, Australia
www.superbeam.co.uk www.eurobeam.co.uk www.greentram.com

On 19 May 2011 13:07:10 GMT Bob Eager wrote :
It's probably gone up now - not to mention the VAT rise. But still a
good deal. We do well out of Amazon Prime too!

Is that the free shipping option? I don't know how they do it but Amazon
UK are doing free shipping to Australia on orders £25 for everyone.

--
Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on', Melbourne, Australia
www.superbeam.co.uk www.eurobeam.co.uk www.greentram.com

In message , Bob Eager
writes
On Thu, 19 May 2011 20:13:37 +0100, chris French wrote:

In message , Bob Eager
writes
On Thu, 19 May 2011 12:54:03 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

We got the £99 yearly pass which means delivery is otherwise free
(min spend £40 but that's easy) at any time (bar a few Christmas days
I think).

Ooh - that is interesting... Will check.

It's probably gone up now - not to mention the VAT rise. But still a
good deal. We do well out of Amazon Prime too!


No, it's gone down from last month.

Hmm. We paid £99 last year and they say it's £109.99 according to the
website.


That is what is shown on the website, it maybe that it si still the
'offical' price. but they seem to offering a lower price in reality.
I've certainly seen the prices I quoted on the Ocado site. and I was
emailed last month to say mine was going down


--
Chris French

On 19/05/2011 22:00, dennis@home wrote:

And who do you think makes your nice pre-configured image?

The IT support, who are probably experts in windows and know nothing of
linux.

Scarily, dennis is quite close to the mark here. A disturbing number of
people in that field know nothing but windows.