Mother has got safety ignorant Indian cowboys in to replace an asbestos
cement garage roof. Method of removal of the old roof is hammers and
smashing it all to pieces, dry, no mask or overall protection & dust
everywhere.

Should I call H&S?

Should they all start making wills?

How long should she wait for the dust to settle before entering the place?

:-(((

--
Adrian C

Should I call H&S?

http://www.hse.gov.uk/asbestos/regulations.htm

Yes - for the sake of the poor saps getting regular work exposure, and
likely to have serious health problems years down the line.

Are they paying for proper, legal disposal of asbestos?

Are you aware that you are likely to be committing an offence by
knowingly contracting someone to work like this?

On 07/03/2011 10:59, wrote:

Are they paying for proper, legal disposal of asbestos?
Are you aware that you are likely to be committing an offence by
knowingly contracting someone to work like this?

Yes, the knowingly bit unfortunately came *after* their stupid act was
done. I'm calling H&S...

Er, "committing an offence" - they can lock up my mum, fine by me.

--
Adrian C

On Mar 7, 10:35*am, Adrian C wrote:
Mother has got safety ignorant Indian cowboys in to replace an asbestos
cement garage roof.

Any particular reason to replace it? Did it need fixing, or was it
being removed because asbestos is "too dangerous to leave in place".

Method of removal of the old roof is hammers and
smashing it all to pieces,

Hammering it is fortunately a bit less troublesome than disk cutting
it - or even for that matter, pressure-washing the moss off it.

I wouldn't panic, but I would try to encourage safe practice from now
on, a cleanup of the mess they've made so far, and having _their_
lungs doing it. Also check where the stuff is eventually being
disposed of, as they sound like the sort of people who'd be fly-
tipping it under the nearest hedge.

On Mar 7, 10:59*am, " wrote:
Are you aware that you are likely to be committing an offence by
knowingly contracting someone to work like this?

"Sporadic and low intensity, guv'nor" is the favoured form of words
for fending off the bowler hat.

That, and placing the air sampler well _upwind_ of the job site.

"Air sampler". I crack myself up. As if.

Adrian C wrote:

How long should she wait for the dust to settle before entering the
place?

That depends on her life expectancy. If it's less than 25 years she won't
die from the asbestos. Her neighbours may, of course, though. She's nowhere
near the N2 postcode, I hope?

In 07/03/2011 12:16, Andy Dingley wrote:
On Mar 7, 10:35 am, Adrian wrote:
Mother has got safety ignorant Indian cowboys in to replace an asbestos
cement garage roof.

Any particular reason to replace it? Did it need fixing,

beyond fixing, leaks and holes where a neighbours chimney once fell through.

I wouldn't panic, but I would try to encourage safe practice from now
on, a cleanup of the mess they've made so far,

In the end, It'll be me.

Her negoitating skills are not that strong, I can imagine them pulling
one and leaving a half done cleanup... :-(

--
Adrian C

In article , lid says...
Mother has got safety ignorant Indian cowboys in to replace an asbestos
cement garage roof. Method of removal of the old roof is hammers and
smashing it all to pieces, dry, no mask or overall protection & dust
everywhere.


That happened at school a few years ago. Work on the edge of the roof
taking place during the holidays. Perviously identified (and nasty sort)
of asbestos was drawn to the contractor's attention and they duly signed
the appropriate book to say they'd read the appropriate bit of the
school's asbestos report.

Site inspector came to see how things were going and found the old bloke
telling the young bloke to stand well back while he removed the asbestos
with a hammer and saw.

Cleanup set the work back some time - at least enough to run over into
termtime, much to the annoyance of all concerned. The bill wasn't small,
either and got passed to the **** with the hammer.

--
Skipweasel - never knowingly understood.

Skipweasel wrote:

Site inspector came to see how things were going and found the old
bloke telling the young bloke to stand well back while he removed the
asbestos with a hammer and saw.

I'm curious as to how you are supposed to do this? Water sprays to keep it
all damped down? Or do you paint over it all before you start? In which
case, what about cut edges? I'm assuming here that it's not possible on a
roof to seal the whole area off completely.

In article ,
says...
Site inspector came to see how things were going and found the old
bloke telling the young bloke to stand well back while he removed the
asbestos with a hammer and saw.

I'm curious as to how you are supposed to do this? Water sprays to keep it
all damped down? Or do you paint over it all before you start? In which
case, what about cut edges? I'm assuming here that it's not possible on a
roof to seal the whole area off completely.

Well, since it was only a single storey building, IIRC they built a tent
over the whole affected fascia and took it down like that.

--
Skipweasel - never knowingly understood.

On 07/03/2011 18:06, GB wrote:
Skipweasel wrote:

Site inspector came to see how things were going and found the old
bloke telling the young bloke to stand well back while he removed the
asbestos with a hammer and saw.

I'm curious as to how you are supposed to do this? Water sprays to keep it
all damped down?

Ideally from what I've read, but more avoid doing it in the first place.

Anyway, her neighbour and I are planning to jetwash the place inside,
both of us wearing protective gear. There's little else we can do.

--
Adrian C

On Mon, 7 Mar 2011 18:08:30 -0000, Skipweasel wrote:

Well, since it was only a single storey building, IIRC they built a tent
over the whole affected fascia and took it down like that.

Yep build a scaffold to enclose the entire structure, double cover
that with polythene, fit air locks and a negative pressure system.
Everything is double bagged inside the containment.

Bit OTT for an asbestos cement roof which is probably white asbestos
and relatively safe compared to blue or brown. Bashing it up with
hammers or angle grinding into manageable bits with no attempt at
dust control or breathing protection is at the other extreme though.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 7 Mar 2011 18:08:30 -0000, Skipweasel wrote:

Well, since it was only a single storey building, IIRC they built a
tent over the whole affected fascia and took it down like that.

Yep build a scaffold to enclose the entire structure, double cover
that with polythene, fit air locks and a negative pressure system.
Everything is double bagged inside the containment.

Doing that to the outside of a school, though, how do you get the inside
clean enough to put kids in?

In article o.uk,
says...
Bit OTT for an asbestos cement roof which is probably white asbestos
and relatively safe compared to blue or brown. Bashing it up with
hammers or angle grinding into manageable bits with no attempt at
dust control or breathing protection is at the other extreme though.

This is insulation contained within a (previously) sealed void.

--
Skipweasel - never knowingly understood.

In article ,
says...
Doing that to the outside of a school, though, how do you get the inside
clean enough to put kids in?


They came along with stickytape and took samples of dust from all over
the place before declaring it safe.

--
Skipweasel - never knowingly understood.

On Mon, 07 Mar 2011 19:42:59 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:


Yep build a scaffold to enclose the entire structure, double cover
that with polythene, fit air locks and a negative pressure system.
Everything is double bagged inside the containment.

Bit OTT for an asbestos cement roof which is probably white asbestos
and relatively safe compared to blue or brown. Bashing it up with
hammers or angle grinding into manageable bits with no attempt at
dust control or breathing protection is at the other extreme though.

It is asbestos cement - it can be removed without any particular
precautions other than minimising dust by wetting it well. It does
not require a licenced asbestos fraudster to do the job.

On Mon, 07 Mar 2011 22:24:07 +0000, Peter Parry wrote:

It is asbestos cement - it can be removed without any particular
precautions other than minimising dust by wetting it well. It does
not require a licenced asbestos fraudster to do the job.

I'd agree with that. There is a lot of FUD surrounding asbestos. Yes,
it can be nasty stuff, documented cases of people going down with
asbestosis or related lung disease 50 years after a single 15 minute
exposure to low levels. But that would almost certainly be blue or
brown asbestos not white that is commonly found in asbestos cement.

The average handyman is probably more at risk from the dust produced
by machine MDF or hard woods.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 07/03/2011 22:43, Dave Liquorice wrote:

I'd agree with that. There is a lot of FUD surrounding asbestos. Yes,
it can be nasty stuff, documented cases of people going down with
asbestosis or related lung disease 50 years after a single 15 minute
exposure to low levels. But that would almost certainly be blue or
brown asbestos not white that is commonly found in asbestos cement.

snip

Ill agree about the FUD. Those documented cases - do you have a link?
Or is it just a case of "Well they must have been exposed to Asbestos or
they wouldn't be ill"?

I'm sure most builders won't remember exactly what was in that building
they knocked down 15 years ago.

Andy

On Tue, 08 Mar 2011 20:29:19 +0000, Andy Champ wrote:

Ill agree about the FUD. Those documented cases - do you have a link?

Ah, TV documntaries I think. B-) But ceratinly not builders or
others routinely exposed to asbestos. Just people on a visit to a
place that had asbestos in the air at the time of their visit.

Or is it just a case of "Well they must have been exposed to Asbestos or
they wouldn't be ill"?

Pretty sure that some forms of lung disease only have one cause...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 07/03/2011 18:17, Adrian C wro

Anyway, her neighbour and I are planning to jetwash the place inside,
both of us wearing protective gear. There's little else we can do.

Update. Been now told jet washing is a no-no, so now holding off for
quotes to have the area properly cleaned (probably 'class H' vacuumed).

Grrrrr....

--
Adrian C

On Wed, 09 Mar 2011 00:19:55 +0000, Adrian C
wrote:


Update. Been now told jet washing is a no-no, so now holding off for
quotes to have the area properly cleaned (probably 'class H' vacuumed).

You don't want high pressure water as it blows the dust everywhere -
just lots of low pressure water. The ideal device is a watering can
with a rose sprinkler on it and about a teaspoon full of washing up
liquid to each can of wate. The washing up liquid acts a s a wetting
agent ensuring the dust doesn't blow about..

Removing asbestos cement waste is a non-licensed task See Leaflet
A11.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/guidance/a11.pdf

On Mar 9, 9:28 am, Peter Parry wrote:
On Wed, 09 Mar 2011 00:19:55 +0000, Adrian C
wrote:



Update. Been now told jet washing is a no-no, so now holding off for
quotes to have the area properly cleaned (probably 'class H' vacuumed).

get a chair ready....
why not just rent a class H vacuum???

You don't want high pressure water as it blows the dust everywhere
-
just lots of low pressure water.

Though a standard home pressure washer can be used successfully to fog
or mist (dampen) large areas effectively.....

(Mine also has an additive pipe so one could add a detergent/whatever
if that was wanted/necessary)

Jim K

On Mar 9, 9:28 am, Peter Parry wrote:
On Wed, 09 Mar 2011 00:19:55 +0000, Adrian C
wrote:



Update. Been now told jet washing is a no-no, so now holding off for
quotes to have the area properly cleaned (probably 'class H' vacuumed).

get a chair ready....
why not just rent a class H vacuum???

You don't want high pressure water as it blows the dust everywhere
-
just lots of low pressure water.

Though a standard home pressure washer can be used successfully to fog
or mist (dampen) large areas effectively.....

(Mine also has an additive pipe so one could add a detergent/whatever
if that was wanted/necessary)

Jim K

In message on Tue, 08 Mar
2011 20:29:19 +0000
Andy Champ wrote:

On 07/03/2011 22:43, Dave Liquorice wrote:

I'd agree with that. There is a lot of FUD surrounding asbestos. Yes,
it can be nasty stuff, documented cases of people going down with
asbestosis or related lung disease 50 years after a single 15 minute
exposure to low levels. But that would almost certainly be blue or
brown asbestos not white that is commonly found in asbestos cement.

snip

Ill agree about the FUD. Those documented cases - do you have a link?
Or is it just a case of "Well they must have been exposed to Asbestos or
they wouldn't be ill"?

I'm sure most builders won't remember exactly what was in that building
they knocked down 15 years ago.


Where does this 15 year period come from?

My father died of gastric ulcers when I was three.

When I was 14, our geography teacher, describing some part of this planet (but
I can't remember which part!) mentioned the asbestos industry there and told us
that death from gastric ulcers was common in asbestos workers ...

My father's death certificate shows his employment as "Labourer, Asbestos
Factory" ...

However, from things my mum told me about other jobs he'd had, it's obvious
that he hadn't worked there for 15 years, or anything like as long ...

--

Terry

On 09/03/2011 09:43, Jim K wrote:

You don't want high pressure water as it blows the dust everywhere
-
just lots of low pressure water.

Though a standard home pressure washer can be used successfully to fog
or mist (dampen) large areas effectively.....

(Mine also has an additive pipe so one could add a detergent/whatever
if that was wanted/necessary)


I (for her neighbour was busy with something else...) washed it down
today with a pressure washer, gentle suds from the soap attachment then
a wide jet, on all walls. Gave the live electrics a bit of a soaking
too, which ain't great. Swept all it to the drain and that's as far as
it goes. Threw the broom, overalls and face mask away. Bags are in the
boot to drive to the tip tomorrow. (me thinks - must sell that car...)

There is obviously going to be some residue lying on the ground both
inside and outside of the garage. No one around here rents those
cleaners so it's going to be left as is - hope it's a minor issue.

One thing in the positive, is that the garage contains a fair number of
wooden shelves that would have been good places to trap fragments of the
concrete as they pulled it down. I found a handfull, but not loads of
the broken stuff to indicate that they had completely pulverised the
original corrugated sheets.

Had a guy visit from one of the asbestos cleanup companies, who had a
brief look about (without PE) and encoraged me to clean it up - he
wasn't really looking to do it himself, or have mum pay over the odds
for possibly the same job done by his lot.

Which was jolly nice of him... (me thinks - cancel pension payments)

--
Adrian C

On Mar 9, 6:14 pm, Adrian C wrote:
On 09/03/2011 09:43, Jim K wrote:

You don't want high pressure water as it blows the dust everywhere
-
just lots of low pressure water.

Though a standard home pressure washer can be used successfully to fog
or mist (dampen) large areas effectively.....

(Mine also has an additive pipe so one could add a detergent/whatever
if that was wanted/necessary)

I (for her neighbour was busy with something else...) washed it down
today with a pressure washer, gentle suds from the soap attachment then
a wide jet, on all walls. Gave the live electrics a bit of a soaking
too, which ain't great. Swept all it to the drain and that's as far as
it goes. Threw the broom, overalls and face mask away. Bags are in the
boot to drive to the tip tomorrow. (me thinks - must sell that car...)

There is obviously going to be some residue lying on the ground both
inside and outside of the garage. No one around here rents those
cleaners so it's going to be left as is - hope it's a minor issue.

One thing in the positive, is that the garage contains a fair number of
wooden shelves that would have been good places to trap fragments of the
concrete as they pulled it down. I found a handfull, but not loads of
the broken stuff to indicate that they had completely pulverised the
original corrugated sheets.

Had a guy visit from one of the asbestos cleanup companies, who had a
brief look about (without PE) and encoraged me to clean it up - he
wasn't really looking to do it himself, or have mum pay over the odds
for possibly the same job done by his lot.

Which was jolly nice of him... (me thinks - cancel pension payments)

--
Adrian C

leave enough in the kitty for a decent wake....

Jim K

On 08/03/2011 21:12, Dave Liquorice wrote:

Pretty sure that some forms of lung disease only have one cause...


That's possibly true. But how do you prove it? Say 90% of all cases
are in people who smoked. And the other 10% are in people who have been
exposed to smoke (or asbestos). You can't really tell whether some of
the cases were associated with something else, because of the strong
smoke (or asbestos!) effect on the disease.

Andy

On Mar 9, 8:53*pm, Andy Champ wrote:
You can't really tell whether some of
the cases were associated with something else,

You can't with lung diseases, but you can with mesothelioma. There's
really nothing much else that causes it.

Legally there's no requirement to prove that asbestos caused a
condition anyway. The legal test is that it _probably_ caused it,
which is accepted as being proven if the exposure caused at least a
doubling of risk (sounds low, but actually it makes statistical
sense). A doubling of risk is not an epidemiologically serious
increase in risk - in most studies of rare conditions with small
sample groups it's hard to demonstrate significance - but it can be
enough to show cause.

On Mar 9, 11:39*am, Terry Casey wrote:
In message on Tue, 08 Mar
2011 20:29:19 +0000
*Andy Champ wrote:





On 07/03/2011 22:43, Dave Liquorice wrote:

I'd agree with that. There is a lot of FUD surrounding asbestos. Yes,
it can be nasty stuff, documented cases of people going down with
asbestosis or related lung disease 50 years after a single 15 minute
exposure to low levels. But that would almost certainly be blue or
brown asbestos not white that is commonly found in asbestos cement.

snip

Ill agree about the FUD. *Those documented cases - do you have a link?
Or is it just a case of "Well they must have been exposed to Asbestos or
they wouldn't be ill"?

I'm sure most builders won't remember exactly what was in that building
they knocked down 15 years ago.

Where does this 15 year period come from?

My father died of gastric ulcers when I was three.

When I was 14, our geography teacher, describing some part of this planet (but
I can't remember which part!) mentioned the asbestos industry there and told us
that death from gastric ulcers was common in asbestos workers

How long ago was that? Stomach ulcers, and their causes, are much
getter understood than they used to be.

MBQ

In message
on Thu, 10 Mar 2011 02:14:49 -0800 (PST)
Man at B&Q wrote:

On Mar 9, 11:39Â*am, Terry Casey wrote:
In message on Tue, 08 Mar
2011 20:29:19 +0000

My father died of gastric ulcers when I was three.

When I was 14, our geography teacher, describing some part of this planet (but
I can't remember which part!) mentioned the asbestos industry there and told us
that death from gastric ulcers was common in asbestos workers

How long ago was that? Stomach ulcers, and their causes, are much
getter understood than they used to be.


My father died in 1947

--

Terry

On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 02:14:49 -0800 (PST), Man at B&Q wrote:

How long ago was that? Stomach ulcers, and their causes, are much
getter understood than they used to be.

Quite, the most common cause is a bacteria (helicobacter pylori),
not "stress". Of cousre it's not quite that simple, other factors do
come into play but having that bacteria present will greatly increase
the chances of a small ulcer caused, by say asprin, becoming rather
more serious.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Mar 10, 1:29*pm, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

Quite, the most common cause is a bacteria (helicobacter pylori),

Causes both stomach ulcers and Bristol trip hop. Tricky's music has
never been so good since he was cured.

On Mar 10, 5:10 pm, Andy Dingley wrote:
On Mar 10, 1:29 pm, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

Quite, the most common cause is a bacteria (helicobacter pylori),

Causes both stomach ulcers and Bristol trip hop. Tricky's music has
never been so good since he was cured.

thought that was just old age...

Jim K

On 10/03/2011 00:24, Andy Dingley wrote:
On Mar 9, 8:53 pm, Andy wrote:
You can't really tell whether some of
the cases were associated with something else,

You can't with lung diseases, but you can with mesothelioma. There's
really nothing much else that causes it.

Again, how do you know?

BTW it says here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesothelioma

Mesothelioma can be associated with glass dust.


Legally there's no requirement to prove that asbestos caused a
condition anyway. The legal test is that it _probably_ caused it,
which is accepted as being proven if the exposure caused at least a
doubling of risk (sounds low, but actually it makes statistical
sense). A doubling of risk is not an epidemiologically serious
increase in risk - in most studies of rare conditions with small
sample groups it's hard to demonstrate significance - but it can be
enough to show cause.

As you say, much easier to prove. The odd 1% error in the numbers is
then unimportant.

Andy