Thank goodness I don't need heating oil at the moment. But for next
year, what about using propane gas in a bottle as a stopgap?

I'm looking at the webpage
http://www.coals2u.co.uk/large-propa...gs-best-prices
where the price of a 47kg bottle is £54.18 in my area.

If I had, say, a gas cooker hob how long might I run it full tilt
during the day on 47kg? Say 10 hours a day.

MM

On Dec 18, 10:34*am, MM wrote:
Thank goodness I don't need heating oil at the moment. But for next
year, what about using propane gas in a bottle as a stopgap?

I'm looking at the webpagehttp://www.coals2u.co.uk/large-propane-gas-bottles-uk-calor-propane-g...
where the price of a 47kg bottle is £54.18 in my area.

If I had, say, a gas cooker hob how long might I run it full tilt
during the day on 47kg? Say 10 hours a day.

MM

That is the last thing you want to do, the condensation about the
house would be incredible. You can get portable propane heaters that
are more effective, (radiant heat) but there is a condensation problem
here too.
Propane is the most expensive heat source you can get. Only used as
last resort by the wealthy. Not to mention capital costs.

Bear in mind, you have to buy a cylinder and they won'y buy it back if
you decide to finish with propane. *******s.

On 18/12/2010 10:34, MM wrote:
Thank goodness I don't need heating oil at the moment. But for next
year, what about using propane gas in a bottle as a stopgap?

I'm looking at the webpage
http://www.coals2u.co.uk/large-propa...gs-best-prices
where the price of a 47kg bottle is £54.18 in my area.

If I had, say, a gas cooker hob how long might I run it full tilt
during the day on 47kg? Say 10 hours a day.

MM
A 19 kg bottle lasts me 5 months just for cooking on a hob. I do lots of
cooking but it isn't used on average for more than 60 mins a day, with
one to three burners in use. Using a *very* rough guesstimate, if on 10
hours a day with one big burner in use, you might get two months. Don't
hold me to that though. The data about my use is correct, so you can do
your own calculations.

Also you'd get a lot of condensation unless you had an extractor fan
which had an external outlet.

Peter Scott

On Dec 18, 10:34*am, MM wrote:
Thank goodness I don't need heating oil at the moment. But for next
year, what about using propane gas in a bottle as a stopgap?

I'm looking at the webpagehttp://www.coals2u.co.uk/large-propane-gas-bottles-uk-calor-propane-g...
where the price of a 47kg bottle is £54.18 in my area.

If I had, say, a gas cooker hob how long might I run it full tilt
during the day on 47kg? Say 10 hours a day.

MM

Assuming your oil boiler is a pressure jet model. Have a look round
for a small blown-gas propane fired burner to interchange with your
oil burner on the boiler.

On Sat, 18 Dec 2010 11:59:27 +0000, Peter Scott
wrote:

On 18/12/2010 10:34, MM wrote:
Thank goodness I don't need heating oil at the moment. But for next
year, what about using propane gas in a bottle as a stopgap?

I'm looking at the webpage
http://www.coals2u.co.uk/large-propa...gs-best-prices
where the price of a 47kg bottle is £54.18 in my area.

If I had, say, a gas cooker hob how long might I run it full tilt
during the day on 47kg? Say 10 hours a day.

MM
A 19 kg bottle lasts me 5 months just for cooking on a hob. I do lots of
cooking but it isn't used on average for more than 60 mins a day, with
one to three burners in use. Using a *very* rough guesstimate, if on 10
hours a day with one big burner in use, you might get two months. Don't
hold me to that though. The data about my use is correct, so you can do
your own calculations.

Also you'd get a lot of condensation unless you had an extractor fan
which had an external outlet.

Harry mentioned condensation, too. Something I hadn't considered at
all, actually.

Now, in terms of cost, I could:
- have the oil CH working most of the day with all radiators except
the kitchen (which is mainly where I spend the winter) turned down to
frost protection only

- use an oil-filled electric radiator (variable 800W to 2000W) as I
presently do

- use an external propane red bottle to power the gas hob

At present, the hob is electric (wipe-clean flat-surface type)

Which one of those scenarios appeals? NB: Take into account the
current enormous rise in heating oil price, which might not drop for
several months.

MM

On Sat, 18 Dec 2010 04:01:03 -0800 (PST), cynic wrote:

Assuming your oil boiler is a pressure jet model. Have a look round
for a small blown-gas propane fired burner to interchange with your
oil burner on the boiler.

Oh that sounds an interesting device, a google didn't produce much
above some very brief DIY construction stuff rather than some nice,
commercially produced, drop in burners.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sat, 18 Dec 2010 10:34:14 +0000, MM wrote:

If I had, say, a gas cooker hob how long might I run it full tilt
during the day on 47kg? Say 10 hours a day.

Calorific value of propane is 50,350 KJ/Kg so you have 2.37 GJ of
energy available. A mixture of small and large rings all flat out on
a 4 ring hob say 10kW or 10KJ/sec so 237,000 seconds = 3950 min =
nearly 65 hours or about a week at 10hrs/day.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Dec 18, 12:54*pm, MM wrote:
On Sat, 18 Dec 2010 11:59:27 +0000, Peter Scott





wrote:
On 18/12/2010 10:34, MM wrote:
Thank goodness I don't need heating oil at the moment. But for next
year, what about using propane gas in a bottle as a stopgap?

I'm looking at the webpage
http://www.coals2u.co.uk/large-propa...alor-propane-g....
where the price of a 47kg bottle is 54.18 in my area.

If I had, say, a gas cooker hob how long might I run it full tilt
during the day on 47kg? Say 10 hours a day.

MM
A 19 kg bottle lasts me 5 months just for cooking on a hob. I do lots of
cooking but it isn't used on average for more than 60 mins a day, with
one to three burners in use. Using a *very* rough guesstimate, if on 10
hours a day with one big burner in use, you might get two months. Don't
hold me to that though. The data about my use is correct, so you can do
your own calculations.

Also you'd get a lot of condensation unless you had an extractor fan
which had an external outlet.

Harry mentioned condensation, too. Something I hadn't considered at
all, actually.

Now, in terms of cost, I could:
- have the oil CH working most of the day with all radiators except
the kitchen (which is mainly where I spend the winter) turned down to
frost protection only

- use an oil-filled electric radiator (variable 800W to 2000W) as I
presently do

- use an external propane red bottle to power the gas hob

At present, the hob is electric (wipe-clean flat-surface type)

Which one of those scenarios appeals? NB: Take into account the
current enormous rise in heating oil price, which might not drop for
several months.

MM- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Bigger oil tank. Fill up in Summer?

On Dec 18, 4:11*pm, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Sat, 18 Dec 2010 04:01:03 -0800 (PST), cynic wrote:
Assuming your oil boiler is a pressure jet model. Have a look round
for a small blown-gas propane fired burner to interchange with your
oil burner on the boiler.

Oh that sounds an interesting device, a google didn't produce much
above some very brief DIY construction stuff rather than some nice,
commercially produced, drop in burners.

--
Cheers
Dave.

http://uk.ask.com/web?q=dual+fuel+bl...rc=0&o=0&l=dir

You can get dual fuel burners. Blown type. But it doesn't solve the
problem.
I think you need an energy efficiency programme. More insulation. Low
tech , no maintenance. More efficient boiler.

On Dec 18, 5:09*pm, Tim Streater wrote:
Bigger oil tank. Fill up in Summer?

Ha, this is a very good point. We've got a miserable 1200 lt and will be
faced with an expensive fill in January. Next stop a 3000 lt tank,
methinks.
Yes that would be a sensible option if you can eliminate the risk of
theft. £2000+ worth of black gold sitting in a big tank in your garden
is an open invitation. It would take minutes for anyone equipped with
a large tank on a flatbed with a pump to drain and once theirs was
full they'd let the rest spill on the ground. Or they might be clever
and have a sign written box van with the tank stowed away inside out
of sight.

Dave

On 18/12/2010 12:54, MM wrote:

- use an external propane red bottle to power the gas hob

At present, the hob is electric (wipe-clean flat-surface type)

Which one of those scenarios appeals? NB: Take into account the
current enormous rise in heating oil price, which might not drop for
several months.

We have an external propane red bottle (two actually) to power our gas
hob instead of electric, but that's just because we find a gas hob nicer
to use, nothing to do with heating the house and price of oil.

On Dec 18, 4:11*pm, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Sat, 18 Dec 2010 04:01:03 -0800 (PST), cynic wrote:
Assuming your oil boiler is a pressure jet model. Have a look round
for a small blown-gas propane fired burner to interchange with your
oil burner on the boiler.

Oh that sounds an interesting device, a google didn't produce much
above some very brief DIY construction stuff rather than some nice,
commercially produced, drop in burners.

--
Cheers
Dave.

There were a number of small boilers which were available with either
oil or gas burners fitted. Names of burner manufacturuers which I can
recall are Nu-Way, EOGB (Electro oil and Gas burners), Radiant. Many
of these will no doubt have been merged by larger groups now.

On Sat, 18 Dec 2010 14:28:50 -0800 (PST), Dave Starling
wrote:

On Dec 18, 5:09*pm, Tim Streater wrote:
Bigger oil tank. Fill up in Summer?

Ha, this is a very good point. We've got a miserable 1200 lt and will be
faced with an expensive fill in January. Next stop a 3000 lt tank,
methinks.
Yes that would be a sensible option if you can eliminate the risk of
theft. £2000+ worth of black gold sitting in a big tank in your garden
is an open invitation. It would take minutes for anyone equipped with
a large tank on a flatbed with a pump to drain and once theirs was
full they'd let the rest spill on the ground. Or they might be clever
and have a sign written box van with the tank stowed away inside out
of sight.

And there's no point having a lockable cap, because they just punch a
hole in the tank.

MM

On Sun, 19 Dec 2010 01:19:38 +0000, Clive George
wrote:

On 18/12/2010 12:54, MM wrote:

- use an external propane red bottle to power the gas hob

At present, the hob is electric (wipe-clean flat-surface type)

Which one of those scenarios appeals? NB: Take into account the
current enormous rise in heating oil price, which might not drop for
several months.

We have an external propane red bottle (two actually) to power our gas
hob instead of electric, but that's just because we find a gas hob nicer
to use, nothing to do with heating the house and price of oil.

Well, yes, that was what motivated my neighbour to change and what
initially interested me, too, since I also hate cooking on an electric
hob. An electric oven is fine, but gas rings are so much more
controllable for everything else. However, in Flackwell Heath, my
previous demesne, the gas hob was very useful for quickly spreading
warmth throughout the kitchen on very cold days.

MM

On Dec 19, 10:27*am, cynic wrote:
On Dec 18, 4:11*pm, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Sat, 18 Dec 2010 04:01:03 -0800 (PST), cynic wrote:
Assuming your oil boiler is a pressure jet model. Have a look round
for a small blown-gas propane fired burner to interchange with your
oil burner on the boiler.

Oh that sounds an interesting device, a google didn't produce much
above some very brief DIY construction stuff rather than some nice,
commercially produced, drop in burners.

--
Cheers
Dave.

There were a number of small boilers which were available with either
oil or gas burners fitted. Names of burner manufacturuers which I can
recall are *Nu-Way, EOGB (Electro oil and Gas burners), Radiant. Many
of these will no doubt have been merged by larger groups now.

Adding to my own post - riello were another manufacturer who are still
going. The model 40 burner was available and generally the mounting
flange was identical so a simple plug and socket from boiler panel to
burner and a shut off valve and flexible fuel connection would permit
easy swapping over without serious buggering about and altering
combustion settings to change from oil to gas. You would need to
contact Riello to ascertain the suitability/availability for Propane
rather than NG.
The smaller Ideal Standard package boilers of a decade ago were
offered with choice of burner and I do recall servicing a couple of
Ideal Falcons at RAF Cowden which operated on a Propane tank supply
but that was around fifteen years ago. Coastal erosion may have
claimed them by now.

On 19/12/2010 10:45, cynic wrote:
On Dec 19, 10:27 am, wrote:
On Dec 18, 4:11 pm, "Dave
wrote:

On Sat, 18 Dec 2010 04:01:03 -0800 (PST), cynic wrote:
Assuming your oil boiler is a pressure jet model. Have a look round
for a small blown-gas propane fired burner to interchange with your
oil burner on the boiler.

Oh that sounds an interesting device, a google didn't produce much
above some very brief DIY construction stuff rather than some nice,
commercially produced, drop in burners.

--
Cheers
Dave.

There were a number of small boilers which were available with either
oil or gas burners fitted. Names of burner manufacturuers which I can
recall are Nu-Way, EOGB (Electro oil and Gas burners), Radiant. Many
of these will no doubt have been merged by larger groups now.

Adding to my own post - riello were another manufacturer who are still
going. The model 40 burner was available and generally the mounting
flange was identical so a simple plug and socket from boiler panel to
burner and a shut off valve and flexible fuel connection would permit
easy swapping over without serious buggering about and altering
combustion settings to change from oil to gas. You would need to
contact Riello to ascertain the suitability/availability for Propane
rather than NG.
The smaller Ideal Standard package boilers of a decade ago were
offered with choice of burner and I do recall servicing a couple of
Ideal Falcons at RAF Cowden which operated on a Propane tank supply
but that was around fifteen years ago. Coastal erosion may have
claimed them by now.

The bloke I use (and trust) to measure the flue gases on my Myson raves
about Riello. He's trying to find me a secondhand one to replace my
current one. Says they do him out of business because they need little care.

Peter Scott

On 19/12/2010 10:34, MM wrote:
On Sun, 19 Dec 2010 01:19:38 +0000, Clive George
wrote:

On 18/12/2010 12:54, MM wrote:

- use an external propane red bottle to power the gas hob

At present, the hob is electric (wipe-clean flat-surface type)

Which one of those scenarios appeals? NB: Take into account the
current enormous rise in heating oil price, which might not drop for
several months.

We have an external propane red bottle (two actually) to power our gas
hob instead of electric, but that's just because we find a gas hob nicer
to use, nothing to do with heating the house and price of oil.

Well, yes, that was what motivated my neighbour to change and what
initially interested me, too, since I also hate cooking on an electric
hob. An electric oven is fine, but gas rings are so much more
controllable for everything else. However, in Flackwell Heath, my
previous demesne, the gas hob was very useful for quickly spreading
warmth throughout the kitchen on very cold days.

We have 2 13kg bottles on an automatic changeover, one lasts about 6
months, and we can easily swap them ourselves. (I think a 47kg cylinder
would fail on the last point.). It's a fairly easy job to install a
setup like that (flexible 10mm-ish copper, ours was done in one run,
though the cylinders are just outside the kitchen), there's no worries
about gas boards looking at your installation and condemning it, so if
you're at all competent I'd say do it.

"MM" wrote in message
...


And there's no point having a lockable cap, because they just punch a
hole in the tank.

No you need to do what Chubb used to do when I worked there.. run a
continuous length of thin, weak wire in a snake pattern all over the surface
yo want to protect and run the alarms anti-tamper circuit through it. Any
attempt to get through breaks the wire and sounds the alarm. You will
probably have to glue the cable to the tank or use the lead foil strips that
you see on shops. The foil is easy to attach using varnish.

MM wrote:

And there's no point having a lockable cap, because they just punch a
hole in the tank.

That would be amusingly difficult on a modern bunded tank.

Tim Streater wrote:

In article ,
(Steve Firth) wrote:

MM wrote:

And there's no point having a lockable cap, because they just punch a
hole in the tank.

That would be amusingly difficult on a modern bunded tank.

Can't they just cut a hole in the outer and then screw a tap into the
inner (I don't know enough about the tanks yet to know whether this is
rubbish or not).

Local NFU man suggested says they heat up a scaffold pole and poke it
through both layers of a plastic tank, leaving the excess to drain to
ground.

AJH

On Sun, 19 Dec 2010 11:59:58 -0000, "dennis@home"
wrote:



"MM" wrote in message
.. .


And there's no point having a lockable cap, because they just punch a
hole in the tank.

No you need to do what Chubb used to do when I worked there.. run a
continuous length of thin, weak wire in a snake pattern all over the surface
yo want to protect and run the alarms anti-tamper circuit through it. Any
attempt to get through breaks the wire and sounds the alarm. You will
probably have to glue the cable to the tank or use the lead foil strips that
you see on shops. The foil is easy to attach using varnish.

I think what is needed is a strong metal spiked fence all around the
tank, 2 feet away from the tank. After all, by making it more
difficult at one tank, the thieves will choose elsewhere. Tough on the
neighbours I know, but it's worth several hundred quid as a one-off to
protect £1500's worth of oil.

MM

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
...

Well, that sounds interesting in principle, but it's a large area to cover
with thin wire and I'd hate to have to find a break in it because Mr
Blackbird chased Mrs Blackbird all over the top of the thing.

Its a compromise, you need it to be robust enough to not break under normal
use and to break under stress. I doubt a bird would break a wire glued to
the surface, squirrels are a different game.

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Steve Firth) wrote:

MM wrote:

And there's no point having a lockable cap, because they just punch a
hole in the tank.

That would be amusingly difficult on a modern bunded tank.

Can't they just cut a hole in the outer and then screw a tap into the
inner (I don't know enough about the tanks yet to know whether this is
rubbish or not).

Why bother when you can cut the feed pipe?

On 19/12/2010 12:04, Huge wrote:
On 2010-12-19, Clive wrote:
On 19/12/2010 10:34, MM wrote:
On Sun, 19 Dec 2010 01:19:38 +0000, Clive George
wrote:

On 18/12/2010 12:54, MM wrote:

- use an external propane red bottle to power the gas hob

At present, the hob is electric (wipe-clean flat-surface type)

Which one of those scenarios appeals? NB: Take into account the
current enormous rise in heating oil price, which might not drop for
several months.

We have an external propane red bottle (two actually) to power our gas
hob instead of electric, but that's just because we find a gas hob nicer
to use, nothing to do with heating the house and price of oil.

Well, yes, that was what motivated my neighbour to change and what
initially interested me, too, since I also hate cooking on an electric
hob. An electric oven is fine, but gas rings are so much more
controllable for everything else. However, in Flackwell Heath, my
previous demesne, the gas hob was very useful for quickly spreading
warmth throughout the kitchen on very cold days.

We have 2 13kg bottles on an automatic changeover, one lasts about 6
months, and we can easily swap them ourselves. (I think a 47kg cylinder
would fail on the last point.). It's a fairly easy job to install a
setup like that (flexible 10mm-ish copper, ours was done in one run,
though the cylinders are just outside the kitchen), there's no worries
about gas boards looking at your installation and condemning it, so if
you're at all competent I'd say do it.

We have 2 x 47kg propane on an automatic changeover valve. I fitted the hob
and valve myself - it's reasonably easy if you're competent with copper
plumbing. I thoroughly leak tested the whole thing - I don't care what the
law says but I care very much about being blown up. 47kg of propane lasts
about a year; we're keen cooks so the hob gets used every day.

I leak tested mine - it's a pretty obvious thing to do. Unfortunately
the builders doing the extension didn't test the cut/join they did :-(.
Replaced the ill-sized compression fitting they tried to use with a
proper solder one, and all is good again.

One nice thing about a propane cylinder is on a quiet night you can hear
it boiling gently when gas is coming out, even if just through a leak.

MM wrote:

Well, yes, that was what motivated my neighbour to change and what
initially interested me, too, since I also hate cooking on an electric
hob. An electric oven is fine, but gas rings are so much more
controllable for everything else.

Get an induction hob. They're even better than a gas hob.

Everyone I ever showed ours to went out and got one themselves!

--
Scott

Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

On Sun, 19 Dec 2010 22:50:34 +0000, Scott M
wrote:

MM wrote:

Well, yes, that was what motivated my neighbour to change and what
initially interested me, too, since I also hate cooking on an electric
hob. An electric oven is fine, but gas rings are so much more
controllable for everything else.

Get an induction hob. They're even better than a gas hob.

Specifically, in what way are they "better"? I use a ceramic hob, but
I'm interested in a serious comparison of the various types.

Most of my existing pans are non-ferrous for a start...

--
Frank Erskine

In message , Frank Erskine
writes
On Sun, 19 Dec 2010 22:50:34 +0000, Scott M
wrote:

MM wrote:

Well, yes, that was what motivated my neighbour to change and what
initially interested me, too, since I also hate cooking on an electric
hob. An electric oven is fine, but gas rings are so much more
controllable for everything else.

Get an induction hob. They're even better than a gas hob.

Specifically, in what way are they "better"? I use a ceramic hob, but
I'm interested in a serious comparison of the various types.

Most of my existing pans are non-ferrous for a start...

Did you get them cheap from denise ?

--
geoff

Tim Streater wrote:

Specifically, in what way are they "better"?

As far as I can tell, because the heat is generated directly in the
bottom of your pan, rather than in the hob and then transferred by
conduction to the pan. So things should heat more quickly, as less heat
is wasted by never going into the pan. Also, when you remove the power,
you haven't had to heat the hob up, so that heat is not wasted either.

In principle the hob is not hot at all, although it's gonna get some
heat from the bottom of the pan being heated.

Yep, all that.

Plus:

* Lower "simmer" level than gas available which has to have a minimum
flame size

* Waaaaay faster than gas (due to what Tim said) at heating up. Instead
of heating water in the kettle to boil something, you just put cold in
the pan and turn it on. My demo to people was to out-boil my 3kW kettle.
(The efficiency must be close to 100%. Be interesting to know how
efficient a gas hob is with all that heat wafting up the sides.)

* None of that silly thermal inertia you get with ceramic hobs (they're
like nuclear power plants - turn 'em off and they're still hot a month
later!)

* You get a flat surface you can put things on, unlike the balancing act
of putting anything (even pans!) on the gas surrounds.

* A hob surface that, when you've finished using it, isn't sun surface
temp hot (as Tim says.) Ok, it's the same temp as the bottom of the pan
but it's not going to start setting fire to tea towels that get lobbed
on there.


The only downsides is the ferrous pan thing, but thicker/heavier pans
are better for frying & cooking than thin ally ones anyway.


I've not seen one of these in action, so I've no idea whether the fact
that it "ought to be better" actually makes it so.

In my dull engineery way I'd show it off to people occasionally and, on
the back of it, two friends and a next door neighbour all went and got
induction hobs when they re-did their kitchens. One friend then showed
his mum & dad and /they/ got one for their new kitchen.

I should be on commission!

You won't go and buy one of course because this reads like a bloody
evangelical conversion!

The peverse thing was that, before buying one, all the things I read
about induction hobs (chiefly on Usenet!) sounded the same - people
having orgasms about a heating device. Ludicrous.

But, for me, buying an induction hob was a toss up between having to
redo a 10+m run of underfloor gas pipe with 28mm (and a load of
channelling in a kitchen I didn't want to pull apart) and putting up
with a standard ceramic hob. I took a chance on the induction hob (from
eBay, just to compound the risk) and it really is a complete Damascine
conversion.

I laugh at your gas hobs; I poke fun at your halogen hobs; induction
really is cooking Nirvana.

--
Scott

Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

On Dec 20, 10:13*am, Scott M wrote:
Tim Streater wrote:
Specifically, in what way are they "better"?

As far as I can tell, because the heat is generated directly in the
bottom of your pan, rather than in the hob and then transferred by
conduction to the pan. So things should heat more quickly, as less heat
is wasted by never going into the pan. Also, when you remove the power,
you haven't had to heat the hob up, so that heat is not wasted either.

In principle the hob is not hot at all, although it's gonna get some
heat from the bottom of the pan being heated.

Yep, all that.

Plus:

* Lower "simmer" level than gas available which has to have a minimum
flame size

* Waaaaay faster than gas (due to what Tim said) at heating up. Instead
of heating water in the kettle to boil something, you just put cold in
the pan and turn it on. My demo to people was to out-boil my 3kW kettle.
(The efficiency must be close to 100%. Be interesting to know how
efficient a gas hob is with all that heat wafting up the sides.)

* None of that silly thermal inertia you get with ceramic hobs (they're
like nuclear power plants - turn 'em off and they're still hot a month
later!)

* You get a flat surface you can put things on, unlike the balancing act
of putting anything (even pans!) on the gas surrounds.

* A hob surface that, when you've finished using it, isn't sun surface
temp hot (as Tim says.) Ok, it's the same temp as the bottom of the pan
but it's not going to start setting fire to tea towels that get lobbed
on there.

The only downsides is the ferrous pan thing, but thicker/heavier pans
are better for frying & cooking than thin ally ones anyway.

I've not seen one of these in action, so I've no idea whether the fact
that it "ought to be better" actually makes it so.

In my dull engineery way I'd show it off to people occasionally and, on
the back of it, two friends and a next door neighbour all went and got
induction hobs when they re-did their kitchens. One friend then showed
his mum & dad and /they/ got one for their new kitchen.

I should be on commission!

You won't go and buy one of course because this reads like a bloody
evangelical conversion!

The peverse thing was that, before buying one, all the things I read
about induction hobs (chiefly on Usenet!) sounded the same - people
having orgasms about a heating device. Ludicrous.

But, for me, buying an induction hob was a toss up between having to
redo a 10+m run of underfloor gas pipe with 28mm (and a load of
channelling in a kitchen I didn't want to pull apart) and putting up
with a standard ceramic hob. I took a chance on the induction hob (from
eBay, just to compound the risk) and it really is a complete Damascine
conversion.

I laugh at your gas hobs; I poke fun at your halogen hobs; induction
really is cooking Nirvana.

--
Scott

Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

So exactly what sort of pans do you need. Are they vitally neccessary
or just desireable?

Tim Streater wrote:

You won't go and buy one of course because this reads like a bloody
evangelical conversion!

I'll put in a word if we can ever afford to redo the kitchen - but SWMBO
may not be convinced.

It's one of those things you have to make people try. Sadly take up of
them is limited and they never have them in showrooms so it's hard to
even see one, let alone play with one. It's a miracle anyone bothers
selling them!

FWIW, I had a DeDietrich (ex-wife took posession in the divorce) which,
although French, worked very well. The person we bought it from had
upgraded to a five ring induction (four outer, one central large/Wok
one) but the kitchen company wouldn't take the standard 4 ring back, so
sold it unused. Woo!

--
Scott

Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

harry wrote:

So exactly what sort of pans do you need. Are they vitally neccessary
or just desireable?

I won't try and out-do Tim's physics piece (never my strong point) but
the correct pan /is/ vital. A pan with an aluminium base[1] won't work
at all.

Basically, anything heavy (ie steel/iron) you've already got is
suitable. Light pans all tend to be aluminium so no good. Packaging on
pans (and sometimes the bases themselves) come with a selection of
symbols showing what they can be used on. Induction has a symbol of its own.

Oh, and you can even heat up roasting tins and the like to melt fat out
of the bottom!



[1] There are some ally pans with induction suitable bases out there.

--
Scott

Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
...

The bottom of the pan forms a loop in which the induced current
circulates. Iron is magnetic, ally is not. I can't remember if that means
that you get a higher magnetic flux in the pan bottom, and hence higher
current ( = more heating) or whether its to do with the skin effect - iron
being magnetic means the current only flows in a thin outer layer of the
pan bottom ( = more resistance, = more heating).

You can get induction hobs that work with non ferrous metals but not at a
reasonable price.
They do work by inducing currents but with ally pans the resistance is so
low you need big currents and that means expensive electronics so it doesn't
happen.
With iron and steel they have a much higher resistance so the electronics
can just be an on off triac with variable mark space ratio to control the
power, really cheap. They also need a pan detector to make sure they only
operate with the steel pans as the electronics go pop if you aren't careful.

You can see induction heating working with non ferrous metals if you go to a
foundry where they have induction furnaces to smelt ally, etc.


IIRC, the induction coil in the hob is not running at 50Hz, but at a much
higher frequency, which is why the skin effect comes into it.

I'm not so sure that's true on the cheap ones.

On Sun, 19 Dec 2010 22:50:34 +0000, Scott M
wrote:

MM wrote:

Well, yes, that was what motivated my neighbour to change and what
initially interested me, too, since I also hate cooking on an electric
hob. An electric oven is fine, but gas rings are so much more
controllable for everything else.

Get an induction hob. They're even better than a gas hob.

Absolute nonsense. NOthing compares to a gas hob for cooking on.

Everyone I ever showed ours to went out and got one themselves!

Lemmings.

MM

On Mon, 20 Dec 2010 10:13:53 +0000, Scott M
wrote:

I laugh at your gas hobs; I poke fun at your halogen hobs; induction
really is cooking Nirvana.

Yeah, like all the professional cooks in the country, who use gas, are
laughing at you!

MM

MM wrote:

Get an induction hob. They're even better than a gas hob.

Absolute nonsense. NOthing compares to a gas hob for cooking on.

shrug You've obviously not tried one.

--
Scott

Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

MM wrote:

I laugh at your gas hobs; I poke fun at your halogen hobs; induction
really is cooking Nirvana.

Yeah, like all the professional cooks in the country, who use gas, are
laughing at you!

shrug (again) The professional world and the domestic world are two
completely different things.

Gas hobs are the only ones that'd survive in an industrial environment.
Thumping great heavy pans of food around in a tearing hurry is going to
wreck anything other than a gas hob since they're effectively just lumps
of pig iron rather than being glass or ceramic. They've also got to cope
with fluid being spilled all over them.

In a similar vein, professional cooks use uncoated pans. But, ask them
what they recommend as a good purchase and they'll say non-stick. Reason
being a Teflon pan wouldn't survive a week in a restaurant but that
doesn't mean it's in some way inferior for home use.

You're obviously desperate to prove something but I have no idea why.

--
Scott

Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

On Mon, 20 Dec 2010 18:39:43 +0000, Scott M
wrote:

MM wrote:

I laugh at your gas hobs; I poke fun at your halogen hobs; induction
really is cooking Nirvana.

Yeah, like all the professional cooks in the country, who use gas, are
laughing at you!

shrug (again) The professional world and the domestic world are two
completely different things.

Gas hobs are the only ones that'd survive in an industrial environment.
Thumping great heavy pans of food around in a tearing hurry is going to
wreck anything other than a gas hob since they're effectively just lumps
of pig iron rather than being glass or ceramic. They've also got to cope
with fluid being spilled all over them.

Seems to be an apt description of my cooking! Never mind, the food
tastes fine.

In a similar vein, professional cooks use uncoated pans.

So do I.

But, ask them
what they recommend as a good purchase and they'll say non-stick. Reason
being a Teflon pan wouldn't survive a week in a restaurant but that
doesn't mean it's in some way inferior for home use.

You're obviously desperate to prove something but I have no idea why.

I don't need to prove anything because no proof is needed. Like I
said, cooks professional and otherwise mostly prefer gas hobs, end of.

MM

On Tue, 21 Dec 2010 07:16:46 +0000, MM wrote:

I don't need to prove anything because no proof is needed. Like I
said, cooks professional and otherwise mostly prefer gas hobs, end of.

Gas is much cheaper than electricity. Gas hobs are cheaper than
induction ones. Gas hobs are more robust that induction. All factors
that are important to a business but less so in the home.

We have a solid plate electric hob and I *DETEST THE F'CKING THING*.
The thermal inertia is so high that you either wait 20 minutes for
nothing to happen or you end up with a layer of carbon in the bottom
of the pan. If you try and double guess what setting to change to
from the current activity in a pan the chances are you'll get it
wrong because you don't know if you are looking at a high or low
point in the temperature cycle. On it's lowest settings on the
smallest ring it will burn a sauce that is thick enough not to
convect in 5 to 10 mins.

You don't get these problems with gas and I'd love to play with an
induction hob to see if one will pass the "milk test" and not suffer
any of the above mentioned problems, particularly the temperature
cycling and associated effects.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice wrote:

You don't get these problems with gas and I'd love to play with an
induction hob to see if one will pass the "milk test" and not suffer
any of the above mentioned problems, particularly the temperature
cycling and associated effects.

The only thermal inertia in the system is the pan and its contents. Turn
the ring off and whatever's about to boil over stops.

And, just remembered, power cycling is interesting. On mine power
settings 5-9 were completely linear (like a light dimmer) whereas only
1-4 were mark-space ratio controlled (like standard hob/microwave.)

Remembered a couple of (pseudo) downsides:

* It had self controlling diversity to prevent overloading - turn all
hobs on quite high and it'd modulate the power to each ring.

* As they're so fast to heat up, it was easy to look away and have
something boil over!

--
Scott

Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

Scott M wrote:
MM wrote:

I laugh at your gas hobs; I poke fun at your halogen hobs; induction
really is cooking Nirvana.

Yeah, like all the professional cooks in the country, who use gas, are
laughing at you!

shrug (again) The professional world and the domestic world are two
completely different things.

Gas hobs are the only ones that'd survive in an industrial environment.
Thumping great heavy pans of food around in a tearing hurry is going to
wreck anything other than a gas hob since they're effectively just lumps
of pig iron rather than being glass or ceramic. They've also got to cope
with fluid being spilled all over them.

In a similar vein, professional cooks use uncoated pans. But, ask them
what they recommend as a good purchase and they'll say non-stick. Reason
being a Teflon pan wouldn't survive a week in a restaurant but that
doesn't mean it's in some way inferior for home use.


Thats about the lifetime my wife gets out of them: a week.

You're obviously desperate to prove something but I have no idea why.