Does anyone have any brilliant ideas about how to ensure the main
power switch remains off when someone is working on the wiring?
The switch is inside a metal box that is locked with a padlock.
When the wiring is being worked on, a warning sign saying "LEAVE OFF"
is locked into the padlock, together with the name of the electrician
and his mobile phone number.
Dozens of people have keys to this padlock, as they need to switch the
power on each morning and off each night.
Unfortunately some are not very observant and don't notice the warning
sign. The electrician was rather lucky to notice when the power came
on again.
I suppose that temporarily changing the padlock would be a start.
However some people are known to use bolt cutters on padlocks when
they feel they are entitled to open them.

Perhaps another metal box with a flush lock could be placed over the
existing box.

Any other ideas? It's too late to sack a moron after the electrician
is dead.

"Matty F" wrote in message
...
Does anyone have any brilliant ideas about how to ensure the main
power switch remains off when someone is working on the wiring?
The switch is inside a metal box that is locked with a padlock.
When the wiring is being worked on, a warning sign saying "LEAVE OFF"
is locked into the padlock, together with the name of the electrician
and his mobile phone number.
Dozens of people have keys to this padlock, as they need to switch the
power on each morning and off each night.
Unfortunately some are not very observant and don't notice the warning
sign. The electrician was rather lucky to notice when the power came
on again.
I suppose that temporarily changing the padlock would be a start.
However some people are known to use bolt cutters on padlocks when
they feel they are entitled to open them.

Perhaps another metal box with a flush lock could be placed over the
existing box.

Any other ideas? It's too late to sack a moron after the electrician
is dead.

Changing the padlock when the electrician is about will mean people have to
think about why they can't get into the box, which means they will get to
read the sign. Also, make your sign more obvious : "Electrician working, do
not touch" is better than just "Leave off".

The sign would stop pretty much anybody getting the bolt croppers.

Also, who has keys to the padlock? You ought to be able to contact them - do
so. If you can't, time to revisit your systems.

Matty F wrote:

Any other ideas? It's too late to sack a moron after the electrician
is dead.

A circuit breaker lockout kit. This has a lockout hasp with multiple
holes. Each hole takes a padlock, each electrician has a personal
padlock. Each person working on that circuit adds their padlock to the
hasp. When they finish their job they remove their padlock. When all the
padlocks have gone the hasp is removed and the power is switched back
on. To guard against ****wittery (going home and forgetting to remove a
padlock) the gaffer has a master key which fits all of the padlocks so
if things do get forgotten the gaffer can remove the offending
padlock(s).

This needs some discipline and a procedure to follow in the event of a
forgotten padlock/lost key.

http://www.reecesafety.co.uk/Circuit...20&%20Kits.htm

"Clive George" wrote in message
o.uk...
"Matty F" wrote in message
...
Does anyone have any brilliant ideas about how to ensure the main
power switch remains off when someone is working on the wiring?
The switch is inside a metal box that is locked with a padlock.
When the wiring is being worked on, a warning sign saying "LEAVE OFF"
is locked into the padlock, together with the name of the electrician
and his mobile phone number.
Dozens of people have keys to this padlock, as they need to switch the
power on each morning and off each night.
Unfortunately some are not very observant and don't notice the warning
sign. The electrician was rather lucky to notice when the power came
on again.
I suppose that temporarily changing the padlock would be a start.
However some people are known to use bolt cutters on padlocks when
they feel they are entitled to open them.

Perhaps another metal box with a flush lock could be placed over the
existing box.

Any other ideas? It's too late to sack a moron after the electrician
is dead.

Changing the padlock when the electrician is about will mean people have
to think about why they can't get into the box, which means they will get
to read the sign. Also, make your sign more obvious : "Electrician
working, do not touch" is better than just "Leave off".

The sign would stop pretty much anybody getting the bolt croppers.

Also, who has keys to the padlock? You ought to be able to contact them -
do so. If you can't, time to revisit your systems.

Forgot to add - if this is at a place of work (implied by "sack a moron"),
boltchoppers on that padlock = H+S breach = bollocking/sacking. If you've
got staff who will consider doing that, you need to seriously clamp down on
them.

On Aug 10, 12:30 pm, (Steve Firth) wrote:
Matty F wrote:
Any other ideas? It's too late to sack a moron after the electrician
is dead.

A circuit breaker lockout kit. This has a lockout hasp with multiple
holes. Each hole takes a padlock, each electrician has a personal
padlock. Each person working on that circuit adds their padlock to the
hasp. When they finish their job they remove their padlock. When all the
padlocks have gone the hasp is removed and the power is switched back
on. To guard against ****wittery (going home and forgetting to remove a
padlock) the gaffer has a master key which fits all of the padlocks so
if things do get forgotten the gaffer can remove the offending
padlock(s).

This needs some discipline and a procedure to follow in the event of a
forgotten padlock/lost key.

http://www.reecesafety.co.uk/Circuit...20&%20Kits.htm

That's a good idea. in my case there is only one electrician, so I
think he should have his own special lock. If I'm helping him I'd be
inclined to short the live wire to earth and have some kind of
indicator near where we are working to show if the wiring becomes
live. That may not be easy with 600v DC when there's no earth for 6
metres.

On Aug 10, 12:42 pm, "Clive George" wrote:

Changing the padlock when the electrician is about will mean people have
to think about why they can't get into the box, which means they will get
to read the sign. Also, make your sign more obvious : "Electrician
working, do not touch" is better than just "Leave off".

The old sign said a bit more than that. I've made a new one that's
12"x8" and double sided.

The sign would stop pretty much anybody getting the bolt croppers.

I want to be 100% certain. Padlocks have been cut off frequently
elsewhere. The people concerned do not necessarily have a high IQ.

Also, who has keys to the padlock? You ought to be able to contact them -
do so. If you can't, time to revisit your systems.

Sure we can contact them. How do we make them be observant and follow
the rules?

Forgot to add - if this is at a place of work (implied by "sack a moron"),
boltchoppers on that padlock = H+S breach = bollocking/sacking. If you've
got staff who will consider doing that, you need to seriously clamp down on
them.

Too late after someone has died. It might be me that's dead. I am
really ****ed off.

Steve Firth wrote:

A circuit breaker lockout kit.

Sorry, forgot to mention, if the kit doesn't meet your needs, buy the
components separately:

Safety lockout hasps (select one(s) that meet your needs)

http://www.reecesafety.co.uk/Lockout%20hasps.htm

And padlocks, the best combination is "Padlocks Master & Differ" which
gives you one master key and individual keys for each padlock.

http://www.reecesafety.co.uk/Padlocks.htm

It's probably also worth getting the tags and the training wallchart for
the thickos.

"Matty F" wrote in message
...
On Aug 10, 12:42 pm, "Clive George" wrote:

Changing the padlock when the electrician is about will mean people
have
to think about why they can't get into the box, which means they will
get
to read the sign. Also, make your sign more obvious : "Electrician
working, do not touch" is better than just "Leave off".

The old sign said a bit more than that. I've made a new one that's
12"x8" and double sided.

The sign would stop pretty much anybody getting the bolt croppers.

I want to be 100% certain. Padlocks have been cut off frequently
elsewhere. The people concerned do not necessarily have a high IQ.

This is a bit scary. Where are these padlocks chopped off frequently, and
why?

Also, who has keys to the padlock? You ought to be able to contact
them -
do so. If you can't, time to revisit your systems.

Sure we can contact them. How do we make them be observant and follow
the rules?

Depends on what relationship you have with them. If it's employee, it's
"you're fired if you break these rules". If they don't understand that, it's
"you're fired for being too dangerous".

Forgot to add - if this is at a place of work (implied by "sack a
moron"),
boltchoppers on that padlock = H+S breach = bollocking/sacking. If you've
got staff who will consider doing that, you need to seriously clamp down
on
them.

Too late after someone has died. It might be me that's dead. I am
really ****ed off.

Well, yeah, I can see that. But if it's a place of work, "how do we make
them be observant and follow the rules" is important. If you've seriously
got staff who will crop a padlock on a well-signed electrical installation,
and you can't train them not to, you need to fire them. This is HSE-type
stuff - they'll get heavy on you if you don't get heavy on staff for this
sort of basic thing.

Matty F wrote:

On Aug 10, 12:42 pm, "Clive George" wrote:

Changing the padlock when the electrician is about will mean people have
to think about why they can't get into the box, which means they will get
to read the sign. Also, make your sign more obvious : "Electrician
working, do not touch" is better than just "Leave off".

The old sign said a bit more than that. I've made a new one that's
12"x8" and double sided.

The sign would stop pretty much anybody getting the bolt croppers.

I want to be 100% certain. Padlocks have been cut off frequently
elsewhere. The people concerned do not necessarily have a high IQ.

The electrician having their own padlock would seem to be a good start.

Something on the notice pointing out that anyone removing a padlock
without authorisation will be immediately sacked and possibly prosecuted!

Forgot to add - if this is at a place of work (implied by "sack a moron"),
boltchoppers on that padlock = H+S breach = bollocking/sacking. If you've
got staff who will consider doing that, you need to seriously clamp down on
them.

Too late after someone has died. It might be me that's dead. I am
really ****ed off.

If in doubt, crowbar the circuit such that any attempt to power it up
will result in an immediate trip.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Matty F" wrote in message
...
Does anyone have any brilliant ideas about how to ensure the main
power switch remains off when someone is working on the wiring?


Something like this
http://www.findtheneedle.co.uk/image...cts/497067.jpg is what you
should put on the padlock. It is 12 inches X 12 inches (300mm X 300mm) and
highly visible, so people can see it without to much problem. If they say
they didn't see it, then sack them for not having proper sight correction
( spectacles or glasses ) in a place of employment.

On Aug 10, 2:11 pm, "Clive George" wrote:
"Matty F" wrote in message

...



On Aug 10, 12:42 pm, "Clive George" wrote:

Changing the padlock when the electrician is about will mean people
have
to think about why they can't get into the box, which means they will
get
to read the sign. Also, make your sign more obvious : "Electrician
working, do not touch" is better than just "Leave off".

The old sign said a bit more than that. I've made a new one that's
12"x8" and double sided.

The sign would stop pretty much anybody getting the bolt croppers.

I want to be 100% certain. Padlocks have been cut off frequently
elsewhere. The people concerned do not necessarily have a high IQ.

This is a bit scary. Where are these padlocks chopped off frequently, and
why?

None of the chopped padlocks has involved such danger, except to allow
unauthorised people access to areas where they should not be.

Also, who has keys to the padlock? You ought to be able to contact
them -
do so. If you can't, time to revisit your systems.

Sure we can contact them. How do we make them be observant and follow
the rules?

Depends on what relationship you have with them. If it's employee, it's
"you're fired if you break these rules". If they don't understand that, it's
"you're fired for being too dangerous".

Forgot to add - if this is at a place of work (implied by "sack a
moron"),
boltchoppers on that padlock = H+S breach = bollocking/sacking. If you've
got staff who will consider doing that, you need to seriously clamp down
on
them.

Too late after someone has died. It might be me that's dead. I am
really ****ed off.

Well, yeah, I can see that. But if it's a place of work, "how do we make
them be observant and follow the rules" is important. If you've seriously
got staff who will crop a padlock on a well-signed electrical installation,
and you can't train them not to, you need to fire them. This is HSE-type
stuff - they'll get heavy on you if you don't get heavy on staff for this
sort of basic thing.

It's management that are chopping the padlocks. Not much I can do
about that.

On 10 Aug, 05:35, Matty F wrote:


It's management that are chopping the padlocks. Not much I can do
about that.- Hide quoted text -

Sounds like time for whistle-blowing perhaps. Completely irresponsible
management. Scary!

In article ,
Matty F writes:
On Aug 10, 12:30 pm, (Steve Firth) wrote:
Matty F wrote:
Any other ideas? It's too late to sack a moron after the electrician
is dead.

A circuit breaker lockout kit. This has a lockout hasp with multiple
holes. Each hole takes a padlock, each electrician has a personal
padlock. Each person working on that circuit adds their padlock to the
hasp. When they finish their job they remove their padlock. When all the
padlocks have gone the hasp is removed and the power is switched back
on. To guard against ****wittery (going home and forgetting to remove a
padlock) the gaffer has a master key which fits all of the padlocks so
if things do get forgotten the gaffer can remove the offending
padlock(s).

This needs some discipline and a procedure to follow in the event of a
forgotten padlock/lost key.

http://www.reecesafety.co.uk/Circuit...20&%20Kits.htm

That's a good idea. in my case there is only one electrician, so I
think he should have his own special lock. If I'm helping him I'd be

Electricians must use their own padlock and key, and not
one provided by anyone on the premises, for which there
could be other keys which are not under the electrician's
control. Your electrician should already know this.

inclined to short the live wire to earth and have some kind of
indicator near where we are working to show if the wiring becomes
live. That may not be easy with 600v DC when there's no earth for 6
metres.

Not a good idea for lots of reasons.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Aug 10, 8:46 pm, (Andrew Gabriel)
wrote:

inclined to short the live wire to earth and have some kind of
indicator near where we are working to show if the wiring becomes
live. That may not be easy with 600v DC when there's no earth for 6
metres.

Not a good idea for lots of reasons.

What reasons would those be?

In article ,
Matty F writes:
On Aug 10, 8:46 pm, (Andrew Gabriel)
wrote:

inclined to short the live wire to earth and have some kind of
indicator near where we are working to show if the wiring becomes
live. That may not be easy with 600v DC when there's no earth for 6
metres.

Not a good idea for lots of reasons.

What reasons would those be?

Assuming that protective devices will clear a large fault
current in the way you expect, and always safely, is not smart.
For example, you might find that the earth fault loop impedance
is too high (possibly due to electrician working on earthing),
and rather than the fault clearing, all earthed metalwork becomes
live, which is a serious electrocution risk to anyone on the
premises, and a risk of multiple fires starting in obscure places.

In the US, it's not uncommon for lazy electricians to identify
the breaker for a circuit by shorting the circuit out and seeing
which one trips. This technique is responsible for a number
of building fires.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Matty F wrote:
On Aug 10, 12:42 pm, "Clive George" wrote:

Changing the padlock when the electrician is about will mean people have
to think about why they can't get into the box, which means they will get
to read the sign. Also, make your sign more obvious : "Electrician
working, do not touch" is better than just "Leave off".

The old sign said a bit more than that. I've made a new one that's
12"x8" and double sided.

The sign would stop pretty much anybody getting the bolt croppers.

I want to be 100% certain. Padlocks have been cut off frequently
elsewhere. The people concerned do not necessarily have a high IQ.

Also, who has keys to the padlock? You ought to be able to contact them -
do so. If you can't, time to revisit your systems.

Sure we can contact them. How do we make them be observant and follow
the rules?

Forgot to add - if this is at a place of work (implied by "sack a moron"),
boltchoppers on that padlock = H+S breach = bollocking/sacking. If you've
got staff who will consider doing that, you need to seriously clamp down on
them.

Too late after someone has died. It might be me that's dead. I am
really ****ed off.

You seem to have a systemic failure. You can't really legislate for
this. If the management are so appallingly unconcerned about health and
safety that they would bolt-crop the padlock off even though there was a
large sign telling them not to for a good reason, then you basically
need to call the HSE for advice.

In the interim:

1. Refuse to work on the equipment at all and advise anybody else who
may work on the equipment that they take their life in their hands. Make
it a big issue that everybody knows about, so nobody can ignore it,
especially management. You're under no obligation to put your life at
risk in this way. A lack of significant action by management would
constitute constructive dismissal if you felt you had to leave your job
to avoid dying.

2. If you do choose to work on the equipment, absolutely put a different
padlock and a big sign on whilst you are working on the system. Make the
sign big enough to cover the whole box so it has to be moved out of the
way before any attempt can be made at the padlock.

Buy this type of padlock if you can bring it to bear: -

http://www.locksonline.co.uk/acatalo..._Padlocks.html

or

http://www.locksonline.co.uk/acatalo...Padlocks_.html

They're harder to bolt-crop.

3. Arrange for a second power isolator to be installed. The second power
isolator could be upstream or downstream of the existing one, but should
be either physically out of sight of the original or in a location where
its purpose is not obvious (i.e adjacent to a load of switchgear). Make
this isolator lockable as well (and don't issue any keys). Then do your
best to keep the location/purpose of this isolator a secret. Then if
somebody does cut off the original lock to switch on, nothing will
happen. Then they can go and find the electrician and take a bollocking
for ignoring the sign.


Finally, if this switch needs to be operated morning and night and
dozens of people have they key, why is it locked at all?

Psychologically, you would be better to ditch the existing lock
altogether and just use a lock when you are on maintenance. This would
then make it clear that if there is a lock on this switch *at all*, then
today must be a special occasion for some reason.

Matty F wrote:

That's a good idea. in my case there is only one electrician, so I
think he should have his own special lock. If I'm helping him I'd be
inclined to short the live wire to earth and have some kind of
indicator near where we are working to show if the wiring becomes
live. That may not be easy with 600v DC when there's no earth for 6
metres.

If there's you and an electrician that's two padlocks. This is basic
electrical safety stuff. Have a browse around the Reece website. There
are useful ideas and info on there. If you have CO2 floods or other fire
fighting equipment it's also worth considering a sign in/out or tag
system.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Matty F
saying something like:

Unfortunately some are not very observant and don't notice the warning
sign. The electrician was rather lucky to notice when the power came
on again.

I find bellowing, "YOU STUPID ****!" in their ear works well. They
certainly don't forget it, and any who do shouldn't have a job where
they have access to switchgear.

On Aug 10, 10:19 pm, Dave Osborne wrote:

1. Refuse to work on the equipment at all and advise anybody else who
may work on the equipment that they take their life in their hands. Make
it a big issue that everybody knows about, so nobody can ignore it,
especially management. You're under no obligation to put your life at
risk in this way. A lack of significant action by management would
constitute constructive dismissal if you felt you had to leave your job
to avoid dying.

Well I'm glad everyone here seems to think this is a serious matter.
The person who ignored the sign and turned the power on was telling
everybody at the lunch table that the electrician had over-reacted.
I managed to avoid saying what I thought about that.
I have also managed to avoid emailing my boss about this appalling
incident. I hope I remember everything I want to say to my boss
tomorrow.

Finally, if this switch needs to be operated morning and night and
dozens of people have they key, why is it locked at all?

If the switch was not locked it could be turned on or off by the
public.
In theory only intelligent well-trained people have a key. I now know
that to be false.

On 10 Aug, 01:13, Matty F wrote:
Does anyone have any brilliant ideas about how to ensure the main
power switch remains off when someone is working on the wiring?

You don't use a padlock alone, you use a "lockout clamp" and then you
use multiple padlocks.

http://www.supplysideusa.com/Images/...ges/SS-003.jpg

The clamp is a simple "padlock multiplier". Rather than relying on
one padlock per lock (and everyone + dog has a key) the clamp always
leaves at least a couple of spare holes. In one of these the
electrician places their own padlock, to which only they have a key.
That way no-one else gets to remove the electrician's padlock. Bolt-
cutters are an obvious issue otherwise.

It's also bad practice to use isolators as switches. Switching one &
off every day through the isolator encourages the view that finding
the isolator locked out and turning it back on is "normal working
practice", rather than an indication that something unusual and not to
be fiddled with is happening that day.

On 10 Aug, 11:19, Dave Osborne wrote:

They're harder to bolt-crop.

That just makes the idiots work harder, when the point is to stop
them behaving as idiots at all.

Many isolator switches look like this:
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Images/P...3/EULB204P.JPG
The padlock goes through a plastic shield around the switch. Now
who's seen these in service where someone has cut the _switch_ to
remove a padlock(?!?!) because it's easier!

On 10 Aug, 03:57, "BigWallop" wrote:

Something like thishttp://www.findtheneedle.co.uk/images/products/497067.jpg*is what you
should put on the padlock. *

Somewhere I still have the severed hand (rubber) holding such a sign
that I used to use on power presses.

Andy Dingley wrote:
On 10 Aug, 11:19, Dave Osborne wrote:

They're harder to bolt-crop.

That just makes the idiots work harder, when the point is to stop
them behaving as idiots at all.

Many isolator switches look like this:
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Images/P...3/EULB204P.JPG
The padlock goes through a plastic shield around the switch. Now
who's seen these in service where someone has cut the _switch_ to
remove a padlock(?!?!) because it's easier!

If you would care to read the op's original post you would note that the
switch is in a steel box fitted with a padlock.

The *point* is to minimise risk by any and all appropriate methods.

In article ,
Matty F writes:
On Aug 10, 10:19 pm, Dave Osborne wrote:

1. Refuse to work on the equipment at all and advise anybody else who
may work on the equipment that they take their life in their hands. Make
it a big issue that everybody knows about, so nobody can ignore it,
especially management. You're under no obligation to put your life at
risk in this way. A lack of significant action by management would
constitute constructive dismissal if you felt you had to leave your job
to avoid dying.

Well I'm glad everyone here seems to think this is a serious matter.
The person who ignored the sign and turned the power on was telling
everybody at the lunch table that the electrician had over-reacted.
I managed to avoid saying what I thought about that.
I have also managed to avoid emailing my boss about this appalling
incident. I hope I remember everything I want to say to my boss
tomorrow.

I don't know your boss, but I'd suggest you write some notes
to take in with you so you don't forget anything. This will
make you think clearly about what you want to say beforehand,
and it will show your manager that you thought the incident
was serious enough prepare your comments in advance, which
could add as much weight again as the actual points themselves.

Finally, if this switch needs to be operated morning and night and
dozens of people have they key, why is it locked at all?

If the switch was not locked it could be turned on or off by the
public.
In theory only intelligent well-trained people have a key. I now know
that to be false.

Functional switching should be handled differently from
isolation for maintenance. They might both need to be key
operated, but that doesn't mean they need to use the same
keys or switches.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

If not already said...

1 - Lose the bolt croppers

If the tools to break a lockoff are removed it reduces their options.


2 - Electrician uses their padlock which must NOT be a safety type

Thereby being more difficult to simply break open with a screwdriver.
Safety padlocks are often weak so a lost key doesn't mean broken (&
live) equipment.


3 - Electrician should wear 00 or 0 safey gloves and assume live
working

Plenty ways to become a conductor across L-N without an imbalance
tripping an RCD.


4 - Most difficult - do the Directors know (as they risk criminal
charges)

Directors can only control that which they know - both re policy &
enforcement.
Your difficulty is finding out - any admin staff aware of the problem
as they can actually be useful at casual contact & dropping a comment
"cutting the lockout nearly killed someone today". Realise it need not
*just* be the electrician that is killed, realise it is perfectly
possible for it to be a whole group of people if metalwork becomes
live.


The problems suggest a deeper *political* problem re management and
perhaps certain personnel re intimidation, blackmail, whatever. So
tread lightly. No matter what, an electrician must be confident a
locked-off circuit will remain so. Indeed their electrical body CAN
involve H&S. Perhaps the best route is to get someone else purely as a
H&S reporter whilst keeping the existing electrician whose life is
probably not that great if he is willing to put up with this.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On 10 Aug, 03:57, "BigWallop" wrote:

Something like
thishttp://www.findtheneedle.co.uk/images/products/497067.jpg is what you
should put on the padlock.

Somewhere I still have the severed hand (rubber) holding such a sign
that I used to use on power presses.


LOL :-)

I had an old plastic head, from a hair dressers shop, decorated with
splashes of red paint. The warning sign was mounted behind the blooded left
ear with a big nail. It caught the attention very quickly. :-)

I remember the story of the sparks in the bonded warehouse. He was jolted
along a conveyor belt when working on one of the lighting circuits. Working
after hours not to interrupt the production line and not expecting anyone to
be there at those hours, he had put red insulting tape over the switch to
stop it being used, but the cleaner just pulled the tape off and switched on
the lights. Not to serious a burn, but it left its mark on him.

Andy Dingley wrote:
On 10 Aug, 11:19, Dave Osborne wrote:

They're harder to bolt-crop.

That just makes the idiots work harder, when the point is to stop
them behaving as idiots at all.

Many isolator switches look like this:
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Images/P...3/EULB204P.JPG
The padlock goes through a plastic shield around the switch. Now
who's seen these in service where someone has cut the _switch_ to
remove a padlock(?!?!) because it's easier!

To stop the idiots, why not just lock up the bolt croppers?

Dave

In message
, Andy
Dingley writes
On 10 Aug, 01:13, Matty F wrote:
Does anyone have any brilliant ideas about how to ensure the main
power switch remains off when someone is working on the wiring?

You don't use a padlock alone, you use a "lockout clamp" and then you
use multiple padlocks.

http://www.supplysideusa.com/Images/...ges/SS-003.jpg

Ahh, that's exactly the bunny I was thinking of but couldn't name.
Coupled with a bloody big sign

--
Clint Sharp

In message , Dave
writes
To stop the idiots, why not just lock up the bolt croppers?
Sound more like they should lock up the idiots.

Dave

--
Clint Sharp

On Aug 11, 12:13 am, (Andrew Gabriel)
wrote:

Functional switching should be handled differently from
isolation for maintenance. They might both need to be key
operated, but that doesn't mean they need to use the same
keys or switches.

I have now discovered that there is yet another isolation switch
elsewhere in a locked metal cabinet. The electrician had switched that
off as well as putting a "Danger Leave Off" sign on the other switch.
When he switched the second isolation switch on again he noticed that
it was live. So no real danger then. A new padlock on the first switch
for just him will solve the problem I think.
Moral of the story - don't assume that people will read warning signs.

On Aug 12, 6:26 am, Owain wrote:
On 11 Aug, 07:29, Matty F wrote:

I have now discovered that there is yet another isolation switch
elsewhere in a locked metal cabinet. The electrician had switched that
off as well as putting a "Danger Leave Off" sign on the other switch.
When he switched the second isolation switch on again he noticed that
it was live. So no real danger then.

*This time*

Fact remains that somebody deliberately over-rode a safety lockout and
that cannot go unreported.

Next time there might not be a second isolator, or someone might over-
ride that as well.

There's a new temporary padlock for the first switch complete with a
new large double-sided red sign. Only the electrician has a key. He
always supervises the work.
None of the morons knows about the second isolation switch or has a
key to that box. I think the system is now safe enough. Unfortunately
the world is full of unobservant morons. We can't get rid of all of
them. Some of them may be useful in other ways.