Interesting consequence of the credit crunch...

We mentioned a few weeks back how price for scrap copper and lead
had plumetted. Same thing has happened for the recyclable rubbish.
Councils suddenly can't get rid of the recycled rubbish they collect.
Some items such as the plastics have dropped to very low prices.
Some items such as paper/cardboard only have any value from those
councils which take only paper and insist you tear out things like
transparent windows from envelopes so the end result is high quality.
Even this is expected to come to an end as postal advertising stops.
Chorus (formerly British Steel) have stopped taking all recyclable
steel [tins] (steel production has dropped to the point where they can
meet it entirely from their long term iron ore contracts, which they
can't get out of).

Councils are looking for somewhere to stockpile the recyclables until
the recession ends, and have asked if they can use military bases.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

Interesting consequence of the credit crunch...

You might have credited Radio4 ;-)

Amazing how we can suddenly contemplate pulling out of CO2 reduction
commitments, waste recycling commitments etc?

On 13 Nov 2008 12:23:18 GMT someone who may be
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote this:-

Councils are looking for somewhere to stockpile the recyclables until
the recession ends, and have asked if they can use military bases.

One of the reasons why recycling is the last 'R', after reduce and
re-use.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

In article ,
Andy Burns writes:
Andrew Gabriel wrote:

Interesting consequence of the credit crunch...

You might have credited Radio4 ;-)

Yes, apparently it will be available as a podcast later today
(and on the Listen Again service I presume "You and Yours").

Amazing how we can suddenly contemplate pulling out of CO2 reduction
commitments, waste recycling commitments etc?

Well, as we know know, the politicians didn't understand the
advice from their government scientists, and much to the horror
of their scientists, signed up to something completely unachievable
without completely destroying the economy (and that was before
the crunch).

CO2 reduction commitments will die as a result of European recession.
What will be interesting is if we can get out of paying the massive
fines. Actually, CO2 savings over the next few years are most likely
to be directly due to the recession across Europe. Things like wind
generation are seeing the government subsidies pulled across Europe,
following the admission of Denmark that their massive investment in
wind power isn't working. Given our dire country finances, I can't
imagine our wind subsidy lasting much longer.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

David Hansen coughed up some electrons that declared:

On 13 Nov 2008 12:23:18 GMT someone who may be
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote this:-

Councils are looking for somewhere to stockpile the recyclables until
the recession ends, and have asked if they can use military bases.

One of the reasons why recycling is the last 'R', after reduce and
re-use.



http://www.inhabitat.com/2008/11/12/...nerate-energy/

Incineration with style!

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Tim S saying
something like:

http://www.inhabitat.com/2008/11/12/...nerate-energy/

Incineration with style!

And a typically journalistic half-arsed grasp of technology, it seems.

Grimly Curmudgeon coughed up some electrons that declared:

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Tim S saying
something like:

http://www.inhabitat.com/2008/11/12/...nerate-energy/

Incineration with style!

And a typically journalistic half-arsed grasp of technology, it seems.

Surely they could just build one of those space elevator thingies and lob it
all into the sun?

And where's my flying car that runs on seawater with anti-gravity blinds?

;-

And where's my flying car that runs on seawater with anti-gravity
blinds?

;-

Now you *know* you are supposed to turn off the cloaking device before
you leave the car park.

--
Robin

"Tim S" wrote in message
...

And where's my flying car that runs on seawater with anti-gravity blinds?

Weapons of mass destruction are banned and anti gravity blinds are weapons
of mass destruction.

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
Interesting consequence of the credit crunch...

We mentioned a few weeks back how price for scrap copper and lead
had plumetted.
--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]


interesting that lead prices are at an alltime high for those that buy Scuba
Diving weights ... lead shot for example currently £6 per Kg !

In message , Andrew Gabriel
writes
Interesting consequence of the credit crunch...

We mentioned a few weeks back how price for scrap copper and lead
had plumetted. Same thing has happened for the recyclable rubbish.
Councils suddenly can't get rid of the recycled rubbish they collect.
Some items such as the plastics have dropped to very low prices.
Some items such as paper/cardboard only have any value from those
councils which take only paper and insist you tear out things like
transparent windows from envelopes so the end result is high quality.
Even this is expected to come to an end as postal advertising stops.
Chorus (formerly British Steel) have stopped taking all recyclable
steel [tins] (steel production has dropped to the point where they can
meet it entirely from their long term iron ore contracts, which they
can't get out of).

Councils are looking for somewhere to stockpile the recyclables until
the recession ends, and have asked if they can use military bases.


and the vast quantity of paper and cardboard which has been sent to
china has ground to a halt, as the cardboard boxes that it is converted
into to send produce back to us are no longer needed in such quantities

--
geoff

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Andy Burns writes:
Andrew Gabriel wrote:

Interesting consequence of the credit crunch...

You might have credited Radio4 ;-)

Yes, apparently it will be available as a podcast later today
(and on the Listen Again service I presume "You and Yours").

Amazing how we can suddenly contemplate pulling out of CO2 reduction
commitments, waste recycling commitments etc?

Well, as we know know, the politicians didn't understand the
advice from their government scientists, and much to the horror
of their scientists, signed up to something completely unachievable
without completely destroying the economy (and that was before
the crunch).

I tihnk the explanation is rather less honest. Senior politicians have
scientific, financial and PR advisors after all. They seem to make a
habit of promising things its clear they cant deliver, but promising
them far enough off in time that they can say 'well we tried' 'things
changed' 'we didnt know but meant well' 'we tried, the other lot
didnt' or simply '2 out of 4 aint bad.'


NT

Owain wrote:
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
Councils are looking for somewhere to stockpile the recyclables until
the recession ends, and have asked if they can use military bases.

I would have thought the sensible thing would be to bury it in some
large holes in the ground, and then put some nice parkland over the top.

Owain


Surely almost anything is more sensible than having four separate
collections from every house in the area? (As we have.)

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

Rod wrote:

Surely almost anything is more sensible than having four separate
collections from every house in the area? (As we have.)

We have four (paper+card, glass, someplastic+tins, other-rubbish) with
an optional fifth (garden).

Andy Burns wrote:
Rod wrote:

Surely almost anything is more sensible than having four separate
collections from every house in the area? (As we have.)

We have four (paper+card, glass, someplastic+tins, other-rubbish) with
an optional fifth (garden).

I knew some smart-ass would be along to trump our measly four
collections. YBS!!! :-)

(Ours is similar but glass is not collected here. Still have to trek to
the recycling bins.)

Yes - even madder...

But possibly not as mad as having had at least three clothing collection
bags through the letterbox in the last week.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 22:45:47 +0000 someone who may be Rod
wrote this:-

Surely almost anything is more sensible than having four separate
collections from every house in the area? (As we have.)

Are these four collections made every week?


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

David Hansen wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 22:45:47 +0000 someone who may be Rod
wrote this:-

Surely almost anything is more sensible than having four separate
collections from every house in the area? (As we have.)

Are these four collections made every week?


Not from every property. We are on the border between two areas so we
actually get the noise and exhaust fumes of collections (2 x 1 - 'grey
bin') one week and (3 x 3 - 'paper', 'plastic/metal' and 'green') the
next. Each of these is collected entirely separately. If I can remember
the schedule of what is being collected from one week to the next... :-)

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

Rod wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

We have four (paper+card, glass, someplastic+tins, other-rubbish) with
an optional fifth (garden).

(Ours is similar but glass is not collected here. Still have to trek to
the recycling bins.)

We have to trek if we want to recycle tetra-paks

But possibly not as mad as having had at least three clothing collection
bags through the letterbox in the last week.

The council have muscled in on that round here too.

Andy Burns wrote:
Rod wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

We have four (paper+card, glass, someplastic+tins, other-rubbish)
with an optional fifth (garden).

(Ours is similar but glass is not collected here. Still have to trek
to the recycling bins.)

We have to trek if we want to recycle tetra-paks

But possibly not as mad as having had at least three clothing
collection bags through the letterbox in the last week.

The council have muscled in on that round here too.

We've got a huge clothing collection bin next to the glass bank - and
still the "charity" collectors bother.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

Rod wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
Rod wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

We have four (paper+card, glass, someplastic+tins, other-rubbish)
with an optional fifth (garden).

(Ours is similar but glass is not collected here. Still have to trek
to the recycling bins.)

We have to trek if we want to recycle tetra-paks

But possibly not as mad as having had at least three clothing
collection bags through the letterbox in the last week.

The council have muscled in on that round here too.

We've got a huge clothing collection bin next to the glass bank - and
still the "charity" collectors bother.


Round here, on a windy day, the plastic gets blown all over the place,
which effectively converts it to litter.

Rod wrote:

But possibly not as mad as having had at least three clothing collection
bags through the letterbox in the last week.

Must remember to drop my plastic bag collection in the collecting
bin at Sainsbury's.

Seems we have reached the stage that, now being equipped with
re-useable shopping bags, the biggest source of plastic ones is
the letterbox :-(

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.

On Fri, 14 Nov 2008 08:41:09 +0000 someone who may be Andy Burns
wrote this:-

We have to trek if we want to recycle tetra-paks

I don't buy the things that often, but if I do then a little slosh
around in the dishwater and they go in with the paper and cardboard.
As I understand it they remove the plastic tops and deal with them
separately. The plastic lids go in the plastic recycling bins with
other plastic of the same type.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Fri, 14 Nov 2008 08:34:16 +0000 someone who may be Rod
wrote this:-

Not from every property. We are on the border between two areas so we
actually get the noise and exhaust fumes of collections (2 x 1 - 'grey
bin') one week and (3 x 3 - 'paper', 'plastic/metal' and 'green') the
next. Each of these is collected entirely separately.

Would you prefer sorting of these items at the roadside, with the
staff placing them in a multi-compartment lorry, as some councils
do?

If I can remember
the schedule of what is being collected from one week to the next... :-)

The timetable is a bookmark on my web browser. It provides
information on which collections there will be for the next eight
weeks.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

David Hansen wrote:
On Fri, 14 Nov 2008 08:41:09 +0000 someone who may be Andy Burns
wrote this:-

We have to trek if we want to recycle tetra-paks

I don't buy the things that often, but if I do then a little slosh
around in the dishwater and they go in with the paper and cardboard.
As I understand it they remove the plastic tops and deal with them
separately. The plastic lids go in the plastic recycling bins with
other plastic of the same type.



Which highlights one of the problems - these rules and approaches vary
considerably from place to place. Here, multi-layer packaging such as
tetra-paks must not go into the paper bin, nor are they permitted in the
metal/plastic bin. With no other recycling points for them, our only
'choice' is the 'other' bin for landfill.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

David Hansen wrote:
On Fri, 14 Nov 2008 08:34:16 +0000 someone who may be Rod
wrote this:-

Not from every property. We are on the border between two areas so we
actually get the noise and exhaust fumes of collections (2 x 1 - 'grey
bin') one week and (3 x 3 - 'paper', 'plastic/metal' and 'green') the
next. Each of these is collected entirely separately.

Would you prefer sorting of these items at the roadside, with the
staff placing them in a multi-compartment lorry, as some councils
do?

If I can remember
the schedule of what is being collected from one week to the next... :-)

The timetable is a bookmark on my web browser. It provides
information on which collections there will be for the next eight
weeks.


If we have to sort things by type, I would prefer a multi-compartment
bin. So we can put things into the right compartments and they could
scoop up one bin and empty it into three/four divisions of the lorry. Or
even empty all four separate containers at the same time.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Rod saying
something like:

But possibly not as mad as having had at least three clothing collection
bags through the letterbox in the last week.

Many of the clothing collection schemes are a scam. You'll find your
clothes being sold on in Eastern Europe and the money pocketed by the
organisers with buggerall given to charity.
I only deal with registered and recognised charity collections.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Rod saying
something like:

If we have to sort things by type, I would prefer a multi-compartment
bin. So we can put things into the right compartments and they could
scoop up one bin and empty it into three/four divisions of the lorry. Or
even empty all four separate containers at the same time.

I watched with incredulity and amusement as a large open-topped truck
came into my local bottle/tin bank collection point and proceeded to
empty the different colours of glass containers into the back of itself.

Thing was... the open-topped lorry back didn't have any separation at
all.

Idiots.

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Rod saying
something like:

But possibly not as mad as having had at least three clothing collection
bags through the letterbox in the last week.

Many of the clothing collection schemes are a scam. You'll find your
clothes being sold on in Eastern Europe and the money pocketed by the
organisers with buggerall given to charity.
I only deal with registered and recognised charity collections.

I have got to the point of assuming all are. Even if seemingly
supporting a charity, I don;t want that many bags through my letterbox.

Heavens knows how many clothes some people must buy...

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

On Fri, 14 Nov 2008 11:48:40 +0000 someone who may be Rod
wrote this:-

Which highlights one of the problems - these rules and approaches vary
considerably from place to place. Here, multi-layer packaging such as
tetra-paks must not go into the paper bin, nor are they permitted in the
metal/plastic bin. With no other recycling points for them, our only
'choice' is the 'other' bin for landfill.

An eternal question. Does one standardise everything everywhere?
Than means the lowest common denominator, people complaining that
facilities have been withdrawn to get down to the lowest common
denominator and people complaining that it is very difficult to
start something new. Or does one let a thousand flowers bloom and
have people complaining that it is different here than it is there.
Or does one have a mixed system with a lowest common denominator, on
top of which organisations can do more?


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

"Rod" wrote in message
...
Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Rod saying
something like:

But possibly not as mad as having had at least three clothing collection
bags through the letterbox in the last week.

Many of the clothing collection schemes are a scam. You'll find your
clothes being sold on in Eastern Europe and the money pocketed by the
organisers with buggerall given to charity.
I only deal with registered and recognised charity collections.

I have got to the point of assuming all are. Even if seemingly supporting
a charity, I don;t want that many bags through my letterbox.

Heavens knows how many clothes some people must buy...

--
Rod

Many of those supposed 'respectable' charities aren't all they are cracked
up to be either. Especially after they have paid their CEO's, & provided top
of the range cars + cheap mortagages etc too.

I remember reading a report in the early 70's about a well known charity,
where it was revealed that after the deduction of salaries, expenses, rents
etc etc., only 5% actually went to famine relief!

Don.

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Rod saying
something like:

If we have to sort things by type, I would prefer a multi-compartment
bin. So we can put things into the right compartments and they could
scoop up one bin and empty it into three/four divisions of the lorry. Or
even empty all four separate containers at the same time.

I watched with incredulity and amusement as a large open-topped truck
came into my local bottle/tin bank collection point and proceeded to
empty the different colours of glass containers into the back of itself.

Thing was... the open-topped lorry back didn't have any separation at
all.

Idiots.

They are only idiots if they are going to be remade into glass,
If it is going to be road fill it doesn't matter.

Then there are auto sorters now and they may have to sort the stuff anyway
if a few idiots put the brown glass in the clear bin.

On Fri, 14 Nov 2008 12:30:42 +0000, David Hansen wrote:
On Fri, 14 Nov 2008 11:48:40 +0000 someone who may be Rod
wrote this:-

Which highlights one of the problems - these rules and approaches vary
considerably from place to place. Here, multi-layer packaging such as
tetra-paks must not go into the paper bin, nor are they permitted in the
metal/plastic bin. With no other recycling points for them, our only
'choice' is the 'other' bin for landfill.

An eternal question. Does one standardise everything everywhere?

Yes, read on for why ...

Than means the lowest common denominator, people complaining that
facilities have been withdrawn to get down to the lowest common
denominator and people complaining that it is very difficult to
start something new. Or does one let a thousand flowers bloom and
have people complaining that it is different here than it is there.
Or does one have a mixed system with a lowest common denominator, on
top of which organisations can do more?

If you standarise, you then have the basis for demanding that the
packaging meets those standards. When you have every council doing it
different, it's hard to apply pressure to retailers/manufacturers.
However, if you had th whole country putting plastics in one box, paper
in another and tins in a third - you'd be able to enforce "no mixed
packaging" rules much easier. You never know, the politicians may even
have people agreeing with them, if they did that!

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "dennis@home"
saying something like:

Thing was... the open-topped lorry back didn't have any separation at
all.

Idiots.

They are only idiots if they are going to be remade into glass,
If it is going to be road fill it doesn't matter.

Then there are auto sorters now and they may have to sort the stuff anyway
if a few idiots put the brown glass in the clear bin.

Ok, so why do they make a big thing about separating them all out? Then
moan like feck when people do make the odd mistake?
Like I said, idiots.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Don" saying
something like:


I remember reading a report in the early 70's about a well known charity,
where it was revealed that after the deduction of salaries, expenses, rents
etc etc., only 5% actually went to famine relief!

Oxfam was the one.
I think they've cleaned up their act, but they're still not all that
efficient in terms of money raised v. overheads.

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "dennis@home"
saying something like:

Thing was... the open-topped lorry back didn't have any separation
at all.

Idiots.

They are only idiots if they are going to be remade into glass,
If it is going to be road fill it doesn't matter.

Then there are auto sorters now and they may have to sort the stuff
anyway if a few idiots put the brown glass in the clear bin.

Ok, so why do they make a big thing about separating them all out?
Then moan like feck when people do make the odd mistake?
Like I said, idiots.

I should imagine it depends on the price and demand for glass. Obviously
sorted glass is more valuable but if demand is low then you might as well
mix it and use it for road fill or whatever else they do with it. If the
price rises, you don't have to retrain the public to go back to sorting if
you've still got separate collection bins.

Tim

David Hansen wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 22:45:47 +0000 someone who may be Rod
wrote this:-

Surely almost anything is more sensible than having four separate
collections from every house in the area? (As we have.)

Are these four collections made every week?

Here in Preston, Lancashire, we have a box for plastic bottles and
cardboard, a second box for paper, a third box for cans, a fourth box for
glass bottles and a brown wheelie bin for garden waste - all that is
collected one week and the following week is the collection for the grey
wheelie-bin for landfill rubbish.

On 14 Nov 2008 14:21:40 GMT someone who may be pete
wrote this:-

If you standarise, you then have the basis for demanding that the
packaging meets those standards. When you have every council doing it
different, it's hard to apply pressure to retailers/manufacturers.

Given that retailers and manufacturers are part of the globalised,
24/7, world market, or at the very least EU market, which we are
told is so good, retailers/manufacturers can always play off bits of
the EU/world against each other.

Anyway, the pressure on retailers/manufacturers is more about
reducing packaging.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Tim Downie"
saying something like:

Ok, so why do they make a big thing about separating them all out?
Then moan like feck when people do make the odd mistake?
Like I said, idiots.

I should imagine it depends on the price and demand for glass. Obviously
sorted glass is more valuable but if demand is low then you might as well
mix it and use it for road fill or whatever else they do with it. If the
price rises, you don't have to retrain the public to go back to sorting if
you've still got separate collection bins.

When I saw this happening the price of glass was probably at a peak, so
well worth keeping separated.
There are fools, damn fools, and councils.

David Hansen wrote:
On Fri, 14 Nov 2008 11:48:40 +0000 someone who may be Rod
wrote this:-

Which highlights one of the problems - these rules and approaches vary
considerably from place to place. Here, multi-layer packaging such as
tetra-paks must not go into the paper bin, nor are they permitted in the
metal/plastic bin. With no other recycling points for them, our only
'choice' is the 'other' bin for landfill.

An eternal question. Does one standardise everything everywhere?
Than means the lowest common denominator, people complaining that
facilities have been withdrawn to get down to the lowest common
denominator and people complaining that it is very difficult to
start something new. Or does one let a thousand flowers bloom and
have people complaining that it is different here than it is there.
Or does one have a mixed system with a lowest common denominator, on
top of which organisations can do more?


I accept that differences do and will continue to exist. But it does
result in difficulties.

People have to maintain understanding of the rules in their own area
and, sometimes, several other areas with different rules. And even where
the rules are written the same, the interpretation may differ. That can
be quite a burden - especially if they are not recipients of copies of
the rules.

People discussing the issues on Usenet end up misunderstanding each
other and making inappropriate suggestions!

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

David Hansen wrote:

I don't buy [tetrapaks] that often, but if I do then a little slosh
around in the dishwater and they go in with the paper and cardboard.

But lots of them are foil lined.