We have just moved into a new 1960s house and the upstairs ring main
has been extended into the loft by drilling a hole through the wall of
the back of a socket in one of the bedrooms into the airing cupboard.

2 X 2.5mm T+E then loops round the loft and back to the socket. So..
in the back of my socket I have 4 pairs of wires attached.

This to me seems wrong. I would have added a junction box in the
airing cupboard and then run one of the existing wires to that. I
would then loop from there round the loft and back to the socket.

Can anyone confirm if the way it's been done is acceptable. I would
have thought that this setup would mean an imbalance in the current
travelling round the ring.

Cheers.

On Dec 13, 12:40 pm, wrote:
We have just moved into a new 1960s house and the upstairs ring main
has been extended into the loft by drilling a hole through the wall of
the back of a socket in one of the bedrooms into the airing cupboard.

2 X 2.5mm T+E then loops round the loft and back to the socket. So..
in the back of my socket I have 4 pairs of wires attached.

This to me seems wrong. I would have added a junction box in the
airing cupboard and then run one of the existing wires to that. I
would then loop from there round the loft and back to the socket.

Can anyone confirm if the way it's been done is acceptable. I would
have thought that this setup would mean an imbalance in the current
travelling round the ring.

Cheers.


If's it's a double socket individually wired then it sounds fine to
me.

On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 04:40:28 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

We have just moved into a new 1960s house and the upstairs ring main
has been extended into the loft by drilling a hole through the wall of
the back of a socket in one of the bedrooms into the airing cupboard.

2 X 2.5mm T+E then loops round the loft and back to the socket. So..
in the back of my socket I have 4 pairs of wires attached.

When you say "2 x 2.5mm " I presume you mean one piece of cable so the
"2 x " refers to both ends ?

Dunno about the "technicalities" of imbalance etc but it's not the way
to do it IMHO...If possible they should have gone to the socket next
to the one you speak of and removed the connecting cable and replaced
it with a piece long enough to go round the loft and back to the
socket in the airing cupboard,thereby extending the ring .

If that wasn't possible then using a junction box as you suggest would
be my next option and doing that now is presumably your easiest way
unless you can get to the socket next in line and do as I suggested
should have been done in the first place ..

On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 05:03:34 -0800 (PST), adder1969
wrote:

On Dec 13, 12:40 pm, wrote:
We have just moved into a new 1960s house and the upstairs ring main
has been extended into the loft by drilling a hole through the wall of
the back of a socket in one of the bedrooms into the airing cupboard.

2 X 2.5mm T+E then loops round the loft and back to the socket. So..
in the back of my socket I have 4 pairs of wires attached.

This to me seems wrong. I would have added a junction box in the
airing cupboard and then run one of the existing wires to that. I
would then loop from there round the loft and back to the socket.

Can anyone confirm if the way it's been done is acceptable. I would
have thought that this setup would mean an imbalance in the current
travelling round the ring.

Cheers.


If's it's a double socket individually wired then it sounds fine to
me.


How do you mean ,individually wired ? It's part of a ring and
another ring has been added to that socket with who knows how many
sockets on it . Thats not the way to extend a ring afaik .

On Dec 13, 12:40 pm, wrote:
We have just moved into a new 1960s house and the upstairs ring main
has been extended into the loft by drilling a hole through the wall of
the back of a socket in one of the bedrooms into the airing cupboard.

2 X 2.5mm T+E then loops round the loft and back to the socket. So..
in the back of my socket I have 4 pairs of wires attached.

This to me seems wrong. I would have added a junction box in the
airing cupboard and then run one of the existing wires to that. I
would then loop from there round the loft and back to the socket.

Can anyone confirm if the way it's been done is acceptable. I would
have thought that this setup would mean an imbalance in the current
travelling round the ring.

Cheers.

Are all four cables terminated directly into the back of the socket
(four wires into each terminal)? If so then that is indeed incorrect.

One of the original pair of wires should be joined using crimps to one
of the new pairs of wires. The remaining old and new pairs should then
be terminated into the back of the socket.

Steve

wrote:
We have just moved into a new 1960s house and the upstairs ring main
has been extended into the loft by drilling a hole through the wall of
the back of a socket in one of the bedrooms into the airing cupboard.

2 X 2.5mm T+E then loops round the loft and back to the socket. So..
in the back of my socket I have 4 pairs of wires attached.

This to me seems wrong.

It is wrong, unless there's only one single or double socket in the
loft. The extension is effectively an unfused spur and is subject to
the rules for same.

I would have added a junction box in the airing cupboard and then run
one of the existing wires to that. I would then loop from there round
the loft and back to the socket.

That's one option, to enlarge the ring, but be careful to check the
overall circuit length to ensure compliance on voltage drop and earth
loop fault impedance. Also, when modifying an existing circuit like
this in an older installation you need to check that the existing
earthing and bonding are adequate to ensure safety of the modified
circuit. If any sockets on the circuit are likely to be used for
portable equipment outdoors you'd need to add RCD protection (30 mA) if
there is none at present.

A second option, possibly easier and adequate, is to turn the illicit
extension into a fused spur by adding a fused connection unit.

--
Andy

On Dec 13, 1:15 pm, Stuart B wrote:
On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 05:03:34 -0800 (PST),adder1969





wrote:
On Dec 13, 12:40 pm, wrote:
We have just moved into a new 1960s house and the upstairs ring main
has been extended into the loft by drilling a hole through the wall of
the back of a socket in one of the bedrooms into the airing cupboard.

2 X 2.5mm T+E then loops round the loft and back to the socket. So..
in the back of my socket I have 4 pairs of wires attached.

This to me seems wrong. I would have added a junction box in the
airing cupboard and then run one of the existing wires to that. I
would then loop from there round the loft and back to the socket.

Can anyone confirm if the way it's been done is acceptable. I would
have thought that this setup would mean an imbalance in the current
travelling round the ring.

Cheers.

If's it's a double socket individually wired then it sounds fine to
me.

How do you mean ,individually wired ? It's part of a ring and
another ring has been added to that socket with who knows how many
sockets on it . Thats not the way to extend a ring afaik .


If one side of the old ring and one side of the new ring are joined
together in one socket, and the other sides of both rings are joined
in the other socket then it remains a ring. If however they're all
jammed into one connection then it's more of a spur but then i don't
see the need for the two runs up to the loft.

On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 07:05:58 -0800 (PST), adder1969
wrote:

On Dec 13, 1:15 pm, Stuart B wrote:
On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 05:03:34 -0800 (PST),adder1969





wrote:
On Dec 13, 12:40 pm, wrote:
We have just moved into a new 1960s house and the upstairs ring main
has been extended into the loft by drilling a hole through the wall of
the back of a socket in one of the bedrooms into the airing cupboard.

2 X 2.5mm T+E then loops round the loft and back to the socket. So..
in the back of my socket I have 4 pairs of wires attached.

This to me seems wrong. I would have added a junction box in the
airing cupboard and then run one of the existing wires to that. I
would then loop from there round the loft and back to the socket.

Can anyone confirm if the way it's been done is acceptable. I would
have thought that this setup would mean an imbalance in the current
travelling round the ring.

Cheers.

If's it's a double socket individually wired then it sounds fine to
me.

How do you mean ,individually wired ? It's part of a ring and
another ring has been added to that socket with who knows how many
sockets on it . Thats not the way to extend a ring afaik .


If one side of the old ring and one side of the new ring are joined
together in one socket, and the other sides of both rings are joined
in the other socket then it remains a ring. If however they're all
jammed into one connection then it's more of a spur but then i don't
see the need for the two runs up to the loft.

But that is NOT what the OP aid .He says
"We have just moved into a new 1960s house and the upstairs ring main
has been extended into the loft by drilling a hole through the wall
of the back of a socket in one of the bedrooms into the airing
cupboard.

2 X 2.5mm T+E then loops round the loft and back to the socket. So..
in the back of my socket I have 4 pairs of wires attached."

re-read that last sentence

Stuart B wrote:

2 X 2.5mm T+E then loops round the loft and back to the socket. So..
in the back of my socket I have 4 pairs of wires attached."

re-read that last sentence

Much depends on how they are attached and to what. All to the set of
terminals on the socket, not good. To a combination of the socket and a
chockie block, might be ok.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 13 Dec, 13:03, adder1969 wrote:
On Dec 13, 12:40 pm, wrote:



We have just moved into a new 1960s house and the upstairs ring main
has been extended into the loft by drilling a hole through the wall of
the back of a socket in one of the bedrooms into the airing cupboard.

2 X 2.5mm T+E then loops round the loft and back to the socket. So..
in the back of my socket I have 4 pairs of wires attached.

This to me seems wrong. I would have added a junction box in the
airing cupboard and then run one of the existing wires to that. I
would then loop from there round the loft and back to the socket.

Can anyone confirm if the way it's been done is acceptable. I would
have thought that this setup would mean an imbalance in the current
travelling round the ring.

Cheers.

If's it's a double socket individually wired then it sounds fine to
me.

Certainly to me the description sounds as if this is a spur that has
been set up as a ring off a ring - ie a 'ring' spur ! ! The OP talks
of 4 wires going into the socket :
So in the back of my socket I have 4 pairs of wires attached.

Nowhere does the description make me think that the 'primary' ring has
been opened up and the additional wiring included within this ring.

Firstly this is not acceptable, if for nothing else that it could
cause a severe misbalance in the 'primary' ring at this point. A spur
is just that - a single branch cable off the ring.

The OP needs to either convert this just to a spur with one socket on
it - ie a radial - or incorporate this loop properly within the ring
feeding his bedroom area. I will leave it to those who are more up to
date than I to state the regulations on how that can be done !

Rob

In article
,
wrote:
We have just moved into a new 1960s house and the upstairs ring main
has been extended into the loft by drilling a hole through the wall of
the back of a socket in one of the bedrooms into the airing cupboard.

2 X 2.5mm T+E then loops round the loft and back to the socket. So..
in the back of my socket I have 4 pairs of wires attached.

This to me seems wrong. I would have added a junction box in the
airing cupboard and then run one of the existing wires to that. I
would then loop from there round the loft and back to the socket.

Can anyone confirm if the way it's been done is acceptable. I would
have thought that this setup would mean an imbalance in the current
travelling round the ring.

Remove the socket. Couple one end of the original ring to the extension
upstairs using a suitable choc block. The other two cables to the socket.
You now have a normal ring.

--
*Upon the advice of my attorney, my shirt bears no message at this time

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 04:40:28 -0800, andy.hide wrote:

We have just moved into a new 1960s house and the upstairs ring main has
been extended into the loft by drilling a hole through the wall of the
back of a socket in one of the bedrooms into the airing cupboard.

2 X 2.5mm T+E then loops round the loft and back to the socket. So.. in
the back of my socket I have 4 pairs of wires attached.

This to me seems wrong. I would have added a junction box in the airing
cupboard and then run one of the existing wires to that. I would then
loop from there round the loft and back to the socket.

Can anyone confirm if the way it's been done is acceptable. I would have
thought that this setup would mean an imbalance in the current
travelling round the ring.

Cheers.

If two of the pairs of wires (int the socket) are nicely joined with a
proper crimping tool. If all the earths are properly sleeved and joined
If the back box has (a) grommet(s) fitted for the new cable exit(s). If
the resulting new ring is still compliant for total cable length (for the
given fuse or MCB) and for expected loading and for the served floor
area.
Then it's probably OK.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 18:20:38 +0000 (UTC), Ed Sirett
wrote:

On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 04:40:28 -0800, andy.hide wrote:

We have just moved into a new 1960s house and the upstairs ring main has
been extended into the loft by drilling a hole through the wall of the
back of a socket in one of the bedrooms into the airing cupboard.

2 X 2.5mm T+E then loops round the loft and back to the socket. So.. in
the back of my socket I have 4 pairs of wires attached.

This to me seems wrong. I would have added a junction box in the airing
cupboard and then run one of the existing wires to that. I would then
loop from there round the loft and back to the socket.

Can anyone confirm if the way it's been done is acceptable. I would have
thought that this setup would mean an imbalance in the current
travelling round the ring.

Cheers.

If two of the pairs of wires (int the socket) are nicely joined with a
proper crimping tool. If all the earths are properly sleeved and joined
If the back box has (a) grommet(s) fitted for the new cable exit(s). If
the resulting new ring is still compliant for total cable length (for the
given fuse or MCB) and for expected loading and for the served floor
area.
Then it's probably OK.

Must have been tricky getting 4 x 2.5mm cable in to the socket
connectors

In article ,
Ed Sirett wrote:
If two of the pairs of wires (int the socket) are nicely joined with a
proper crimping tool. If all the earths are properly sleeved and joined
If the back box has (a) grommet(s) fitted for the new cable exit(s). If
the resulting new ring is still compliant for total cable length (for
the given fuse or MCB) and for expected loading and for the served
floor area. Then it's probably OK.

There's no need to crimp if the connection is inside the backing box - a
choc block will be fine as it's accessible. Might be tight if it's a
shallow box, though.

--
*Work is for people who don't know how to fish.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Ed Sirett wrote:
If two of the pairs of wires (int the socket) are nicely joined with a
proper crimping tool. If all the earths are properly sleeved and joined
If the back box has (a) grommet(s) fitted for the new cable exit(s). If
the resulting new ring is still compliant for total cable length (for
the given fuse or MCB) and for expected loading and for the served
floor area. Then it's probably OK.

There's no need to crimp if the connection is inside the backing box - a
choc block will be fine as it's accessible. Might be tight if it's a
shallow box, though.


One of the backboxes in my house (not put in by me...) has 5 sets of wires

2 for the original ring. 2 for the ring extension. 1 for the spur.

All done tidily enough, though I scratched my head when I first saw it.
Only found it because I replaced the CU and the resistances for
Phase/Phase and Phase/Earth didn't add up - they'd married all the
earths together, so the earth resistance was about half what it should
have been for a straight ring.

Ben