http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6951171.stm

On Aug 17, 1:11 pm, Phil wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6951171.stm

I can't wait for id cards. Who wants to bet that wont be the biggest
monumental f**kup of all time.

Kevin

On 17 Aug, 14:48, Kev wrote:
On Aug 17, 1:11 pm, Phil wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6951171.stm

I can't wait for id cards. Who wants to bet that wont be the biggest
monumental f**kup of all time.

Kevin

Well I didn't realise they no longer contain a survey. Surely that was
the main thing said would help first-time buyers etc, and that has
gone.
And can you use the searches done pre-HIP when you bought the house
you are selling ? I mean, if there used to be a coal mine nearby, that
won't have changed. It's unlikely anything near would come up on the
searches, but I suppose they would have to be done again anyway.
As for the energy certificate, I wonder what it will say for old solid-
wall homes ? Probably just to insulate the loft !
Simon.

sm_jamieson wrote:
On 17 Aug, 14:48, Kev wrote:
On Aug 17, 1:11 pm, Phil wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6951171.stm
I can't wait for id cards. Who wants to bet that wont be the biggest
monumental f**kup of all time.

Kevin

Well I didn't realise they no longer contain a survey. Surely that was
the main thing said would help first-time buyers etc, and that has
gone.
And can you use the searches done pre-HIP when you bought the house
you are selling ? I mean, if there used to be a coal mine nearby, that
won't have changed. It's unlikely anything near would come up on the
searches, but I suppose they would have to be done again anyway.
As for the energy certificate, I wonder what it will say for old solid-
wall homes ? Probably just to insulate the loft !
Simon.

It is simply another form of taxation, the HIPs are subject to VAT. The
usual government way, knew there would be uproar if they introduced it
all at once, by doing it in stages people accept it.

On 17 Aug, 15:27, Broadback wrote:
sm_jamieson wrote:
On 17 Aug, 14:48, Kev wrote:
On Aug 17, 1:11 pm, Phil wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6951171.stm
I can't wait for id cards. Who wants to bet that wont be the biggest
monumental f**kup of all time.

Kevin

Well I didn't realise they no longer contain a survey. Surely that was
the main thing said would help first-time buyers etc, and that has
gone.
And can you use the searches done pre-HIP when you bought the house
you are selling ? I mean, if there used to be a coal mine nearby, that
won't have changed. It's unlikely anything near would come up on the
searches, but I suppose they would have to be done again anyway.
As for the energy certificate, I wonder what it will say for old solid-
wall homes ? Probably just to insulate the loft !
Simon.

It is simply another form of taxation, the HIPs are subject to VAT. The
usual government way, knew there would be uproar if they introduced it
all at once, by doing it in stages people accept it.

Yep, frog in a saucepan of water.
Simon.

On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 05:11:34 -0700, Phil
wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6951171.stm

Just how does a 'HIP' save millions of tonnes of carbon? It doesn't
save anything at all - indeed all the extra paper and stuff needed
will add to the pollution...

--
Frank Erskine

On 17 Aug, 15:52, Frank Erskine wrote:
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 05:11:34 -0700, Phil
wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6951171.stm

Just how does a 'HIP' save millions of tonnes of carbon? It doesn't
save anything at all - indeed all the extra paper and stuff needed
will add to the pollution...

--
Frank Erskine

The misuse of terms is typical of folks spouting stats. Million tonnes
of carbon (dioxide / diamond / graphite ?), in a (day / month / year /
lifetime of some power station ?) etc.
I know the context of these terms is often assumed, but even so.
Simon.

On Aug 17, 2:48 pm, Kev wrote:
On Aug 17, 1:11 pm, Phil wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6951171.stm

I can't wait for id cards. Who wants to bet that wont be the biggest
monumental f**kup of all time.

Oh I don't know. There's really quite a lot of competition for title
of BIGGEST ****up (even if we confine ourselves to goverment computing
programs) ... but there's no way I want to bet it won't be a serious
contender!

On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 15:27:15 +0100 Broadback wrote :
It is simply another form of taxation, the HIPs are subject to VAT.

True but if it's a sale subject to IHT or CGT HMG gets 17.5% of the
pack price but then loses 40% of the with-VAT price, e.g. pack price
£500+, they get £87.50 VAT, lose £235 in inheritance tax.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

"Martin Bonner" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Aug 17, 2:48 pm, Kev wrote:
On Aug 17, 1:11 pm, Phil wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6951171.stm

I can't wait for id cards. Who wants to bet that wont be the biggest
monumental f**kup of all time.

Oh I don't know. There's really quite a lot of competition for title
of BIGGEST ****up (even if we confine ourselves to goverment computing
programs) ... but there's no way I want to bet it won't be a serious
contender!

TBH they'll have to try hard to beat the LAS[1] cock-up.
However bad it is implemented, the ID card scheme is unlikely
to kill anybody.

tim

[1] London Ambulance Service

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 15:27:15 +0100 Broadback wrote :
It is simply another form of taxation, the HIPs are subject to VAT.

True but if it's a sale subject to IHT or CGT HMG gets 17.5% of the
pack price but then loses 40% of the with-VAT price, e.g. pack price
£500+, they get £87.50 VAT, lose £235 in inheritance tax.

Is the 'pack' subject to VAT? Most of the items in it are
things that you already have to buy which are either VAT
excempt or have VAT included.

I can't see that paying someone 50 quid to put it all together
generates another VAT charge (except on that 50 quid).

Personally, I can see this pack as a tax. It doesn't generate
a significant amount of VAT that wasn't already being collected
and there is no compulsion to pay someone to put it together
for you. You can do it yourself - and why would the contributors
to this group do otherwise :-)

tim

"Kev" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Aug 17, 1:11 pm, Phil wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6951171.stm

I can't wait for id cards. Who wants to bet that wont be the biggest
monumental f**kup of all time.

Kevin

You mean worse than the invasion of Iraq?

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 15:27:15 +0100 Broadback wrote :
It is simply another form of taxation, the HIPs are subject to VAT.

True but if it's a sale subject to IHT or CGT HMG gets 17.5% of the
pack price but then loses 40% of the with-VAT price, e.g. pack price
£500+, they get £87.50 VAT, lose £235 in inheritance tax.

BLBLBLBLBLblbllblblblblblllllllllllllll - can you say that in English,
please?

For the numerically challenged ...

:-)

Mary

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
t...

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 15:27:15 +0100 Broadback wrote :
It is simply another form of taxation, the HIPs are subject to VAT.

True but if it's a sale subject to IHT or CGT HMG gets 17.5% of the
pack price but then loses 40% of the with-VAT price, e.g. pack price
£500+, they get £87.50 VAT, lose £235 in inheritance tax.

BLBLBLBLBLblbllblblblblblllllllllllllll - can you say that in English,
please?

For the numerically challenged ...

Without the pack:

you make 500K profit on selling the house and pay 200K IHT

With the pack:

You make 500K minus 500 GBP for the pack, equals
499,500 profit on selling the house and pay 199,800 IHT
and 87.50 VAT.

(Yes it's a silly arguement)

tim

On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 07:12:26 -0700, sm_jamieson wrote:

On 17 Aug, 14:48, Kev wrote:
On Aug 17, 1:11 pm, Phil wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6951171.stm

I can't wait for id cards. Who wants to bet that wont be the biggest
monumental f**kup of all time.

Kevin

Well I didn't realise they no longer contain a survey. Surely that was
the main thing said would help first-time buyers etc, and that has
gone.

What is now left is what the 'industry' will allow. The rock on which the
previous versions foundered was
a) The savvy players would have disregarded a survey sponsored by the
vendor.
b) More importantly, the lenders (a very significant subset of "a") would
not trust it. Result: no mortgage means no sale in almost all cases.

A survey is as often as not a hindrance. It can often highlight minor
problems so needlessly putting of inexperienced (eg. first time buyers)
whilst occasional serious problems may be unreported even on the 'full'
survey. Moreover many of the medium serious problems will relate to the
oil/gas/water/electrical/heating installation and these will be explicit
excluded from even a 'full' survey.




And can you use the searches done pre-HIP when you bought the house
you are selling ? I mean, if there used to be a coal mine nearby, that
won't have changed. It's unlikely anything near would come up on the
searches, but I suppose they would have to be done again anyway.
As for the energy certificate, I wonder what it will say for old solid-
wall homes ? Probably just to insulate the loft !

Yes there's only so much you can do.
1 Loft.
2 better boiler and/or controls
3 better windows (which can't justify their installation on energy saving
ground alone).


Simon.






--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 19:18:44 +0100, tim..... wrote:

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 15:27:15 +0100 Broadback wrote :
It is simply another form of taxation, the HIPs are subject to VAT.

True but if it's a sale subject to IHT or CGT HMG gets 17.5% of the
pack price but then loses 40% of the with-VAT price, e.g. pack price
£500+, they get £87.50 VAT, lose £235 in inheritance tax.

Is the 'pack' subject to VAT? Most of the items in it are
things that you already have to buy which are either VAT
excempt or have VAT included.

I can't see that paying someone 50 quid to put it all together
generates another VAT charge (except on that 50 quid).

Personally, I can see this pack as a tax. It doesn't generate
a significant amount of VAT that wasn't already being collected
and there is no compulsion to pay someone to put it together
for you. You can do it yourself - and why would the contributors
to this group do otherwise :-)

Even if the local authority search and land registry searches are VAT
exempt the energy assessors fees are and the overall package assembly
charge will be.




--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

Phil wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6951171.stm


"Hips and EPCs can help families to save hundreds of pounds off their
fuel bills, and cut a million tonnes of carbon a year," she continued."

What a load of ********. It will help every householder spend another
£400 - £1000 for no return whatsoever!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Broadback wrote:
sm_jamieson wrote:

On 17 Aug, 14:48, Kev wrote:

On Aug 17, 1:11 pm, Phil wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6951171.stm

I can't wait for id cards. Who wants to bet that wont be the biggest
monumental f**kup of all time.

Kevin


Well I didn't realise they no longer contain a survey. Surely that was
the main thing said would help first-time buyers etc, and that has
gone.
And can you use the searches done pre-HIP when you bought the house
you are selling ? I mean, if there used to be a coal mine nearby, that
won't have changed. It's unlikely anything near would come up on the
searches, but I suppose they would have to be done again anyway.
As for the energy certificate, I wonder what it will say for old solid-
wall homes ? Probably just to insulate the loft !
Simon.

It is simply another form of taxation, the HIPs are subject to VAT. The
usual government way, knew there would be uproar if they introduced it
all at once, by doing it in stages people accept it.

So why can't I sell a house without an HIP? I can sell a car, aeroplane,
or a yacht, all of which can cost much more than a house.

Dave

"tim....." wrote in message
...

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
t...

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 15:27:15 +0100 Broadback wrote :
It is simply another form of taxation, the HIPs are subject to VAT.

True but if it's a sale subject to IHT or CGT HMG gets 17.5% of the
pack price but then loses 40% of the with-VAT price, e.g. pack price
£500+, they get £87.50 VAT, lose £235 in inheritance tax.

BLBLBLBLBLblbllblblblblblllllllllllllll - can you say that in English,
please?

For the numerically challenged ...

Without the pack:

you make 500K profit on selling the house and pay 200K IHT

With the pack:

You make 500K minus 500 GBP for the pack, equals
499,500 profit on selling the house and pay 199,800 IHT
and 87.50 VAT.

(Yes it's a silly arguement)

I'm not saying it's silly at all, I just don't understand numbers :-) But
thanks for trying!

Mary

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 19:18:44 +0100, tim..... wrote:

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 15:27:15 +0100 Broadback wrote :
It is simply another form of taxation, the HIPs are subject to VAT.

True but if it's a sale subject to IHT or CGT HMG gets 17.5% of the
pack price but then loses 40% of the with-VAT price, e.g. pack price
£500+, they get £87.50 VAT, lose £235 in inheritance tax.

Is the 'pack' subject to VAT? Most of the items in it are
things that you already have to buy which are either VAT
excempt or have VAT included.

I can't see that paying someone 50 quid to put it all together
generates another VAT charge (except on that 50 quid).

Personally, I can see this pack as a tax. It doesn't generate
a significant amount of VAT that wasn't already being collected
and there is no compulsion to pay someone to put it together
for you. You can do it yourself - and why would the contributors
to this group do otherwise :-)

Even if the local authority search and land registry searches are VAT
exempt the energy assessors fees are and the overall package assembly
charge will be.

I can see that there is a (small) amount of extra tax collected.

But my point is that, I believe that the introduction of these
packs has not been done to create revenue.

It's been done because someone genuinely believes that they
will be helpful. You will recall (or perhaps not) that (for reasons
which I never understood) Estate Agents where in favour of
such a the scheme when the Government were initially consulting
on "how to avoid gazumping", perhaps because they thought
the alternatives were worse. They only became negative to the
scheme after the initial trials.

tim

John Rumm wrote:
Phil wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6951171.stm


"Hips and EPCs can help families to save hundreds of pounds off their
fuel bills, and cut a million tonnes of carbon a year," she continued."

What a load of ********. It will help every householder spend another
£400 - £1000 for no return whatsoever!



Without the energy survey it seems like a sensible idea, rather like a
log book for the house. All the tedious stuff gets done in advance,
which has to be beneficial for both parties.
The energy survey will be a farce, and no one will take any notice of
the results.

Stuart Noble wrote:

Without the energy survey it seems like a sensible idea, rather like a
log book for the house. All the tedious stuff gets done in advance,
which has to be beneficial for both parties.

Except it's not. I for one will not trust a survey that I have not
commissioned and at present it's unclear who is responsible should the
HIP turn out to be inaccurate.

In article ,
tim..... wrote:

I can see that there is a (small) amount of extra tax collected.

But my point is that, I believe that the introduction of these
packs has not been done to create revenue.

It's been done because someone genuinely believes that they will
be helpful. You will recall (or perhaps not) that (for reasons
which I never understood) Estate Agents where in favour of such a
the scheme when the Government were initially consulting on "how
to avoid gazumping", perhaps because they thought the
alternatives were worse. They only became negative to the scheme
after the initial trials.

I thought the energy assessment element was as a result
of an EEC Directive, which the gov't is obeying, and they
have hidden it (paying for it) by wrapping it inside the HIP.

--
Tony Williams.

Steve Firth wrote:
Stuart Noble wrote:

Without the energy survey it seems like a sensible idea, rather like a
log book for the house. All the tedious stuff gets done in advance,
which has to be beneficial for both parties.

Except it's not. I for one will not trust a survey that I have not
commissioned and at present it's unclear who is responsible should the
HIP turn out to be inaccurate.

The building survey element was, sensibly, abandoned ages ago. Without
the green survey it would just be fixed price conveyancing in advance,
which seems eminently sensible.

"Huge" wrote in message
...
On 2007-08-18, tim..... wrote:

It's been done because someone genuinely believes that they
will be helpful.

And that someone is a politician. Someone who genuinely believes, with no
evidence whatsoever, that they can can run your life better than you can.
And
they're wrong. They're always wrong. More often than not, what they do
will have
thye opposite effect to what they intended, and there will always be
unseen side
effects. I firmly belive that HIPS will have the opposite effect to that
desired; it will make it more difficult and expensive to buy and sell
houses.
All we needed was to make the offer & acceptance legally binding. Nothing
else.

Before which we will have to have surveys done and mortgage offers
guarenteed.

How does this move the goal posts? ISTM that all it does is change
their name.

tim

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
. ..
Stuart Noble wrote:

Without the energy survey it seems like a sensible idea, rather like a
log book for the house. All the tedious stuff gets done in advance,
which has to be beneficial for both parties.

Except it's not. I for one will not trust a survey that I have not
commissioned and at present it's unclear who is responsible should the
HIP turn out to be inaccurate.

There is no survey in a HIP

tim

"Huge" wrote in message
...
On 2007-08-18, Stuart Noble wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
Phil wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6951171.stm


"Hips and EPCs can help families to save hundreds of pounds off their
fuel bills, and cut a million tonnes of carbon a year," she continued."

What a load of ********. It will help every householder spend another
£400 - £1000 for no return whatsoever!



Without the energy survey it seems like a sensible idea, rather like a
log book for the house. All the tedious stuff gets done in advance,
which has to be beneficial for both parties.
The energy survey will be a farce, and no one will take any notice of
the results.

Too long.

"The whole thing will be a farce, and no one will take any notice of the
results."

There, that's better.

I for one have no intention whatsoever of paying the slightest notice of
anything commissoned & held by the vendor. Ergo, the entire thing is a
waste of
time, effort and money.

Then you aren't going to be buying a house.

Much of what's in the pack: copies of planning, guarentees,
lease, services charges, insurances and the draft contract are
things which the buyer has alwas asked the seller to supply.

If you're going to ignore these, you aren't going to get very far.

tim

On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 10:51:22 +0100 someone who may be "tim....."
wrote this:-

It's been done because someone genuinely believes that they
will be helpful.

One of the most destructive things in society is party politicians
with religious zeal, doing what they genuinely believe is right. The
lying scumbag who was the previous Prime Minister is a good example
of the perils of such an approach.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 19:13:22 +0100 someone who may be "tim....."
wrote this:-

TBH they'll have to try hard to beat the LAS[1] cock-up.
However bad it is implemented, the ID card scheme is unlikely
to kill anybody.

On the contrary, it is quite likely to result in people being
killed. An "identity register" is a wonderful place for all sorts of
nasty people to attack. Don't like the witness who had you sent to
prison? Get your insider to find out where they moved to.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

Stuart Noble wrote:
Steve Firth wrote:
Stuart Noble wrote:

Without the energy survey it seems like a sensible idea, rather like a
log book for the house. All the tedious stuff gets done in advance,
which has to be beneficial for both parties.

Except it's not. I for one will not trust a survey that I have not
commissioned and at present it's unclear who is responsible should the
HIP turn out to be inaccurate.

The building survey element was, sensibly, abandoned ages ago. Without
the green survey it would just be fixed price conveyancing in advance,
which seems eminently sensible.

In theory. In practice the searches etc will be out of date, and would
hence need redoing.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

tim..... wrote:
"Huge" wrote in message
...
On 2007-08-18, Stuart Noble wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
Phil wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6951171.stm

"Hips and EPCs can help families to save hundreds of pounds off their
fuel bills, and cut a million tonnes of carbon a year," she continued."

What a load of ********. It will help every householder spend another
£400 - £1000 for no return whatsoever!


Without the energy survey it seems like a sensible idea, rather like a
log book for the house. All the tedious stuff gets done in advance,
which has to be beneficial for both parties.
The energy survey will be a farce, and no one will take any notice of
the results.
Too long.

"The whole thing will be a farce, and no one will take any notice of the
results."

There, that's better.

I for one have no intention whatsoever of paying the slightest notice of
anything commissoned & held by the vendor. Ergo, the entire thing is a
waste of
time, effort and money.

Then you aren't going to be buying a house.

Much of what's in the pack: copies of planning, guarentees,
lease, services charges, insurances and the draft contract are
things which the buyer has alwas asked the seller to supply.

And presumably your solicitor will still check these and charge you the
same as before. The fact that they were delivered to him in an envelope
with HIP written on it seems neither here nor there.

More to the point, this creates an window of opportunity for deception.

Say for example you know that a neighbour is about to make a planing
application that you anticipate may devalue your property, but is
unlikely to be opposed based on other similar local applications
succeeding. You quickly assemble your HIP before said application is
made. If the buyers solicitor now relies on the information in the HIP
rather than repeating all the searches contained in it, their client
stands to lose out.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

David Hansen wrote:
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 19:13:22 +0100 someone who may be "tim....."
wrote this:-

TBH they'll have to try hard to beat the LAS[1] cock-up.
However bad it is implemented, the ID card scheme is unlikely
to kill anybody.

On the contrary, it is quite likely to result in people being
killed. An "identity register" is a wonderful place for all sorts of
nasty people to attack. Don't like the witness who had you sent to
prison? Get your insider to find out where they moved to.

Feature creep will ensure that there are plenty more ways for you to get
killed by them. The NHS would no doubt be one of the first organisations
to rely on them for patient identification. Hence they will allow
someone else's medical records to be attached to your identity much more
quickly than before. Net result you receive medication that is
incompatible with your current condition (and continued survival!)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 19:13:22 +0100 someone who may be "tim....."
wrote this:-

TBH they'll have to try hard to beat the LAS[1] cock-up.
However bad it is implemented, the ID card scheme is unlikely
to kill anybody.

On the contrary, it is quite likely to result in people being
killed. An "identity register" is a wonderful place for all sorts of
nasty people to attack. Don't like the witness who had you sent to
prison? Get your insider to find out where they moved to.

What.

If you want to know who lives where you can already
get this information.

How is this going to make it any worse.

tim

On 2007-08-18 12:36:26 +0100, "tim....." said:


"Huge" wrote in message
...
On 2007-08-18, tim..... wrote:

It's been done because someone genuinely believes that they
will be helpful.

And that someone is a politician. Someone who genuinely believes, with no
evidence whatsoever, that they can can run your life better than you can.
And
they're wrong. They're always wrong. More often than not, what they do
will have
thye opposite effect to what they intended, and there will always be
unseen side
effects. I firmly belive that HIPS will have the opposite effect to that
desired; it will make it more difficult and expensive to buy and sell
houses.
All we needed was to make the offer & acceptance legally binding. Nothing
else.

Before which we will have to have surveys done and mortgage offers
guarenteed.

How does this move the goal posts? ISTM that all it does is change
their name.

tim

The HIP concept is fundamentally broken because it is something
commissioned by the seller. Any buyer with half a brain would want to
be in control of the evaluation and survey. As to the value of a
survey about energy profile, is it going to cause either party to take
an action or make a purchasing decision based on its contents? In the
cloud cuckoo land of Whitehall, possibly. In the real world, certainly
not.

On 2007-08-18 11:38:33 +0100, Stuart Noble
said:

John Rumm wrote:
Phil wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6951171.stm


"Hips and EPCs can help families to save hundreds of pounds off their
fuel bills, and cut a million tonnes of carbon a year," she continued."

What a load of ********. It will help every householder spend another
£400 - £1000 for no return whatsoever!



Without the energy survey it seems like a sensible idea, rather like a
log book for the house. All the tedious stuff gets done in advance,
which has to be beneficial for both parties.

As a buyer, would you trust such a thing commissioned by the seller?



The energy survey will be a farce, and no one will take any notice of
the results.

That's true.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-08-18 12:36:26 +0100, "tim....." said:


"Huge" wrote in message
...
On 2007-08-18, tim..... wrote:

It's been done because someone genuinely believes that they
will be helpful.

And that someone is a politician. Someone who genuinely believes, with
no
evidence whatsoever, that they can can run your life better than you
can.
And
they're wrong. They're always wrong. More often than not, what they do
will have
thye opposite effect to what they intended, and there will always be
unseen side
effects. I firmly belive that HIPS will have the opposite effect to that
desired; it will make it more difficult and expensive to buy and sell
houses.
All we needed was to make the offer & acceptance legally binding.
Nothing
else.

Before which we will have to have surveys done and mortgage offers
guarenteed.

How does this move the goal posts? ISTM that all it does is change
their name.

tim

The HIP concept is fundamentally broken because it is something
commissioned by the seller. Any buyer with half a brain would want to be
in control of the evaluation and survey. As to the value of a survey
about energy profile, is it going to cause either party to take an action
or make a purchasing decision based on its contents? In the cloud cuckoo
land of Whitehall, possibly. In the real world, certainly not.

Do people believe the efficiency ratings on Fridges,
or do they pay someone to conduct their own survey?

tim

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-08-18 11:38:33 +0100, Stuart Noble
said:

John Rumm wrote:
Phil wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6951171.stm


"Hips and EPCs can help families to save hundreds of pounds off their
fuel bills, and cut a million tonnes of carbon a year," she continued."

What a load of ********. It will help every householder spend another
£400 - £1000 for no return whatsoever!



Without the energy survey it seems like a sensible idea, rather like a
log book for the house. All the tedious stuff gets done in advance, which
has to be beneficial for both parties.

As a buyer, would you trust such a thing commissioned by the seller?



The energy survey will be a farce, and no one will take any notice of the
results.

That's true.

I agree, but that's a different thing to not believing it.

tim

On 2007-08-18 13:20:08 +0100, "tim....." said:


"Huge" wrote in message

Too long.

"The whole thing will be a farce, and no one will take any notice of the
results."

There, that's better.

I for one have no intention whatsoever of paying the slightest notice of
anything commissoned & held by the vendor. Ergo, the entire thing is a
waste of
time, effort and money.

Then you aren't going to be buying a house.

Much of what's in the pack: copies of planning, guarentees,
lease, services charges, insurances and the draft contract are
things which the buyer has alwas asked the seller to supply.

If you're going to ignore these, you aren't going to get very far.

tim

John Rumm wrote:
Stuart Noble wrote:
Steve Firth wrote:
Stuart Noble wrote:

Without the energy survey it seems like a sensible idea, rather like a
log book for the house. All the tedious stuff gets done in advance,
which has to be beneficial for both parties.

Except it's not. I for one will not trust a survey that I have not
commissioned and at present it's unclear who is responsible should the
HIP turn out to be inaccurate.

The building survey element was, sensibly, abandoned ages ago. Without
the green survey it would just be fixed price conveyancing in advance,
which seems eminently sensible.

In theory. In practice the searches etc will be out of date, and would
hence need redoing.



Hmm.

tim..... wrote:

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
. ..
Stuart Noble wrote:

Without the energy survey it seems like a sensible idea, rather like a
log book for the house. All the tedious stuff gets done in advance,
which has to be beneficial for both parties.

Except it's not. I for one will not trust a survey that I have not
commissioned and at present it's unclear who is responsible should the
HIP turn out to be inaccurate.

There is no survey in a HIP

A complete waste of time and money then aren't they?