I think they are an incredibly BAD idea. And will cost a fortune. They
won't be worth the paper they're written on after the property has
been on the market for more than a few months. What then? Another
grand to get 'em revised? Buyers will trust them less than Tony Blair
with the truth. All in all, I'd say HIPs are going to be Labour's poll
tax.

MM

In article , Mm wrote:
I think they are an incredibly BAD idea. And will cost a fortune.
They won't be worth the paper they're written on after the property
has been on the market for more than a few months.

True. But when I bought an off-plan flat in Australia I was given a
contract pack that was much the same as what is envisaged in the sellers
pack: plan, search, copy of title, planning consent etc. It was almost
easier than buying a car.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
[Latest version QSEDBUK 1.10 released 4 April 2005]

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
In article , Mm wrote:
I think they are an incredibly BAD idea. And will cost a fortune.
They won't be worth the paper they're written on after the property
has been on the market for more than a few months.

True. But when I bought an off-plan flat in Australia I was given a
contract pack that was much the same as what is envisaged in the sellers
pack: plan, search, copy of title, planning consent etc. It was almost
easier than buying a car.

Surely Tony; you'll concede that a Developer who's purchased
a virgin site would readily provide a search; copy of title, planning
permission et.al - which hed had to generate anyway in the course
of developing his purchase into saleable portions; however
Mr and Mrs Bloggs are now to be faced with spending all this money
up front. All of these 'packs' seemed to have been dreamed up
by lawyers to keep other lawyers in the standard to which they've become
accustomed.

--

Brian

Just how are surveyors going to get by on doing just one survey per
house?

In article .com,
Phil wrote:
Just how are surveyors going to get by on doing just one survey per
house?

According to today's Telegraph 80% of buyers just rely on the mortgage
valuation. The likely problem is not going to be unemployed surveyors,
rather a shortage of suitably qualified people to produce the reports.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
[Latest version QSEDBUK 1.10 released 4 April 2005]

Tony Bryer wrote:

According to today's Telegraph 80% of buyers just rely on the mortgage
valuation. The likely problem is not going to be unemployed surveyors,
rather a shortage of suitably qualified people to produce the reports.

That and those who still want their own independent survey because the
don't trust the marketing bro^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h survey produced at
the vendors behest.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

brown envelopes from estate agents?

John Rumm wrote:
Tony Bryer wrote:
According to today's Telegraph 80% of buyers just rely on the mortgage
valuation. The likely problem is not going to be unemployed surveyors,
rather a shortage of suitably qualified people to produce the reports.

That and those who still want their own independent survey because the
don't trust the marketing bro^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h survey produced at
the vendors behest.

Twenty years ago you rarely saw 'For Sale' signs, by the time the agent
got the board up it said 'Sold'. I expect the 'For Sale' signs will be
rarer in future. The HIP is supposed to save money overall by avoiding
surveys where the sale is not completed. But apart from the problem of a
vendor survey being wothless, none of the other information in the pack
will be valid for more than a few months. So if I was selling I wouldn't
go to the expense unless I was sure of a sale. So I might by some form
of words indicate that the property would be worth looking at, that if
the right offer was made etc, but I wouldn't be putting it up for sale
or putting together the HIP until the right offer was made.
It is just interfering in the normal process of price negotiation
between buyer and seller. As with most legislation it is driven by
special interest groups and large companies -- big housebuilders with
whole estates of tacky little boxes to shift will of course have all the
right paper work in big bright glossy folders.



--
David Clark

$message_body_include ="PLES RING IF AN RNSR IS REQIRD"

On 1 Nov 2005 13:46:13 -0800, "andy hall"
wrote:

brown envelopes from estate agents?

If HIPs ever get off the ground, the screaming will start low, then
work itself up to an ear-shattering crescendo before culminating in a
cacophony of complaints and litigation. There is so much that can go
wrong, that will go wrong, with bungs, out-of-date HIPs, buyers
refusing to consider a HIP, cowboy surveyors, and so on, that the
government must be totally mad to be contemplating all of this in a
very shaky market on which the economy largely depends for people to
start spending again.

But then we already knew that this government is mad.

MM

On 2 Nov 2005 10:04:05 GMT, (Huge) wrote:

MM writes:
On 1 Nov 2005 13:46:13 -0800, "andy hall"
wrote:

brown envelopes from estate agents?

If HIPs ever get off the ground, the screaming will start low, then
work itself up to an ear-shattering crescendo before culminating in a
cacophony of complaints and litigation. There is so much that can go
wrong, that will go wrong, with bungs, out-of-date HIPs, buyers
refusing to consider a HIP, cowboy surveyors,

... sellers refusing to prepare them (yours truly).

Hang about, isn't a HIP going to be mandatory then?

MM

On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 10:55:42 +0000, MM wrote:

I think they are an incredibly BAD idea. And will cost a fortune. They
won't be worth the paper they're written on after the property has
been on the market for more than a few months. What then? Another
grand to get 'em revised? Buyers will trust them less than Tony Blair
with the truth. All in all, I'd say HIPs are going to be Labour's poll
tax.

MM

Most of the reports are not expensive, and can be got on line for a
small fee. The expensive one is the survayors one, where he writes a
load of words, but says noting, cause hs words it in that way. s/he
may then recommend a dozen or more reports, and now you are really
spending money.

I can't see the banks trusting a valuation form anybody they don't
appoint.

Rick

Well done. I would do exactly the same.

Apart from the complete intrusion into people's private business, this
also cuts across the basic commercial principle of "caveat emptor".

MM wrote:
I think they are an incredibly BAD idea.

Bloody handy for articulating your thighs though.

HTH

Paul.

In article .com,
"Phil" writes:
Just how are surveyors going to get by on doing just one survey per
house?

The HIP 'survey' isn't done by a surveyor.
So far, no mortgage company has said they will accept it either.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Possibly why J++ is proposing it.....

On 2 Nov 2005 18:04:00 GMT, (Huge) wrote:

MM writes:
On 2 Nov 2005 10:04:05 GMT, (Huge) wrote:

MM writes:
On 1 Nov 2005 13:46:13 -0800, "andy hall"
wrote:

brown envelopes from estate agents?

If HIPs ever get off the ground, the screaming will start low, then
work itself up to an ear-shattering crescendo before culminating in a
cacophony of complaints and litigation. There is so much that can go
wrong, that will go wrong, with bungs, out-of-date HIPs, buyers
refusing to consider a HIP, cowboy surveyors,

... sellers refusing to prepare them (yours truly).

Hang about, isn't a HIP going to be mandatory then?

Yep. Like I care.

But if one is selling, one is going to have to care! (Perhaps Blunkett
will be put in charge of HIP enforcement.)

MM

On 03 Nov 2005 00:00:16 GMT, (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:

In article .com,
"Phil" writes:
Just how are surveyors going to get by on doing just one survey per
house?

The HIP 'survey' isn't done by a surveyor.

Yes, I couldn't think of the correct term. What will the wallies with
3 days training and barely able to walk upright unaided be called?

So far, no mortgage company has said they will accept it either.

This is why there is going to be an almighty punch-up.

MM

On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 18:14:51 GMT, Rick wrote:

On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 10:55:42 +0000, MM wrote:

I think they are an incredibly BAD idea. And will cost a fortune. They
won't be worth the paper they're written on after the property has
been on the market for more than a few months. What then? Another
grand to get 'em revised? Buyers will trust them less than Tony Blair
with the truth. All in all, I'd say HIPs are going to be Labour's poll
tax.

MM

Most of the reports are not expensive, and can be got on line for a
small fee.

Huh, I don't call £135 for the local authority search small!

MM

On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 09:32:02 +0000, MM wrote:

Yes, I couldn't think of the correct term. What will the wallies with 3
days training and barely able to walk upright unaided be called?

Estate agents?

--
Regards
Tony
(Take out the garbage to reply)

On 2 Nov 2005 18:21:02 GMT, (Huge) wrote:

Rick writes:
On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 10:55:42 +0000, MM wrote:

I think they are an incredibly BAD idea. And will cost a fortune. They
won't be worth the paper they're written on after the property has
been on the market for more than a few months. What then? Another
grand to get 'em revised? Buyers will trust them less than Tony Blair
with the truth. All in all, I'd say HIPs are going to be Labour's poll
tax.

MM

Most of the reports are not expensive, and can be got on line for a
small fee. The expensive one is the survayors one, where he writes a
load of words, but says noting, cause hs words it in that way. s/he
may then recommend a dozen or more reports, and now you are really
spending money.

Not my money. The purchaser's money. If you want any of this meaningless
tosh, you can pay for it.

Pay up front, yes. In this land of one trillion in personal debt, not
many can stump up a grand UNTIL the house has been sold. And if they
borrow the money, then the house doesn't sell and the HIP lapses after
a while, which it surely will, as nothing it contains will be valid
any longer, they will be even deeper in the financial doodoo.

MM

That should knock it on the head nicely......

Cabinet ministers

On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 09:33:00 +0000, MM wrote:

On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 18:14:51 GMT, Rick wrote:

On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 10:55:42 +0000, MM wrote:

I think they are an incredibly BAD idea. And will cost a fortune. They
won't be worth the paper they're written on after the property has
been on the market for more than a few months. What then? Another
grand to get 'em revised? Buyers will trust them less than Tony Blair
with the truth. All in all, I'd say HIPs are going to be Labour's poll
tax.

MM

Most of the reports are not expensive, and can be got on line for a
small fee.

Huh, I don't call £135 for the local authority search small!

MM
0.1 % of the total cost of the property - its small. Its all a matter
of scale. I used to fix computers holding a long way over a trillion
in bank account balances, so a trillion in debit for the whole UK does
not sould too bad. A trillon in debit for one poor person - is indeed
lots, as is 135 quid for a recently divorced male whose now ex wife
had a better solicitor than he did.

Rick

On 3 Nov 2005 10:57:22 GMT, (Huge) wrote:

MM writes:
On 2 Nov 2005 18:04:00 GMT, (Huge) wrote:

MM writes:
On 2 Nov 2005 10:04:05 GMT, (Huge) wrote:

MM writes:
On 1 Nov 2005 13:46:13 -0800, "andy hall"
wrote:

brown envelopes from estate agents?

If HIPs ever get off the ground, the screaming will start low, then
work itself up to an ear-shattering crescendo before culminating in a
cacophony of complaints and litigation. There is so much that can go
wrong, that will go wrong, with bungs, out-of-date HIPs, buyers
refusing to consider a HIP, cowboy surveyors,

... sellers refusing to prepare them (yours truly).

Hang about, isn't a HIP going to be mandatory then?

Yep. Like I care.

But if one is selling, one is going to have to care!

Who's going to enforce it?

Well, I thought the whole idea behind HIPs was that they would be
*mandatory*, as yet another addition to Tony Blair's police state
measures. Are you saying that they will NOT be mandatory?

MM

On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 17:31:34 GMT, Rick wrote:

On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 09:33:00 +0000, MM wrote:

On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 18:14:51 GMT, Rick wrote:

On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 10:55:42 +0000, MM wrote:

I think they are an incredibly BAD idea. And will cost a fortune. They
won't be worth the paper they're written on after the property has
been on the market for more than a few months. What then? Another
grand to get 'em revised? Buyers will trust them less than Tony Blair
with the truth. All in all, I'd say HIPs are going to be Labour's poll
tax.

MM

Most of the reports are not expensive, and can be got on line for a
small fee.

Huh, I don't call £135 for the local authority search small!

MM
0.1 % of the total cost of the property - its small. Its all a matter
of scale. I used to fix computers holding a long way over a trillion
in bank account balances, so a trillion in debit for the whole UK does
not sould too bad. A trillon in debit for one poor person - is indeed
lots, as is 135 quid for a recently divorced male whose now ex wife
had a better solicitor than he did.

Yes, but £135 may be one outlay - for the BUYER, normally! Finding up
to a thousand pounds up front for the SELLER is a different thing
entirely. The seller is already having to budget for the large chunk
of money that goes to the estate agent in most transactions and may
already have spent thousands getting the house ready for sale. I mean,
do you *want* to encourage a housing market crash? For this is surely
going to be the result. Sure, the middle and top end of the market may
be able to finance the HIPs, but a low-income couple with baby on the
way who are already stretched but want to move from their one-bedroom
flat to a two-bed terrace? How are they going to suddenly afford a
HIP?

MM

On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 18:04:00 +0000, Huge wrote:

MM writes:
On 2 Nov 2005 10:04:05 GMT, (Huge) wrote:

MM writes:
On 1 Nov 2005 13:46:13 -0800, "andy hall"
wrote:

brown envelopes from estate agents?

If HIPs ever get off the ground, the screaming will start low, then
work itself up to an ear-shattering crescendo before culminating in a
cacophony of complaints and litigation. There is so much that can go
wrong, that will go wrong, with bungs, out-of-date HIPs, buyers
refusing to consider a HIP, cowboy surveyors,

... sellers refusing to prepare them (yours truly).

Hang about, isn't a HIP going to be mandatory then?

Yep. Like I care.

As I submit notifications for minor maintenance replacements. I'm
thinking this is "Dead Tree Abuse" and the paper would have more use in
the Lavatory than a HIP.

No one (except maybe for the absolute top of the market) will have all the
right paperwork and that alone will mean that a pragmatic approach will be
taken. Exactly how that works will remain to be seen.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

Huge wrote:
MM writes:

On 3 Nov 2005 10:57:22 GMT, (Huge) wrote:


MM writes:

On 2 Nov 2005 18:04:00 GMT, (Huge) wrote:


MM writes:

On 2 Nov 2005 10:04:05 GMT, (Huge) wrote:


MM writes:

On 1 Nov 2005 13:46:13 -0800, "andy hall"
wrote:


brown envelopes from estate agents?

If HIPs ever get off the ground, the screaming will start low, then
work itself up to an ear-shattering crescendo before culminating in a
cacophony of complaints and litigation. There is so much that can go
wrong, that will go wrong, with bungs, out-of-date HIPs, buyers
refusing to consider a HIP, cowboy surveyors,

... sellers refusing to prepare them (yours truly).

Hang about, isn't a HIP going to be mandatory then?

Yep. Like I care.

But if one is selling, one is going to have to care!

Who's going to enforce it?

Well, I thought the whole idea behind HIPs was that they would be
*mandatory*, as yet another addition to Tony Blair's police state
measures. Are you saying that they will NOT be mandatory?


All kinds of things that are mandatory are ignored. If a law is not
enforced, then it might as well not exist.



Well, I can see a situation where the estate agents will be offering
houses for viewing, not selling, without HIPs, on the understanding that
a worthless HIP will be provided if a serious offer is made. ie the
viewer pays a HIP fee!

This is similar to how shops get round Sunday opening hours, by
having a non trading, viewing session.

Comments?

Regards
Capitol

Capitol wrote:

Well, I can see a situation where the estate agents will be offering
houses for viewing, not selling, without HIPs, on the understanding that
a worthless HIP will be provided if a serious offer is made. ie the
viewer pays a HIP fee!


More than likely... or someone will start doing bargain basement HIPs
for a flat rate fee that tick all the regulatory boxes and come so
stuffed with disclaimers as to render them even more pointless than they
would otherwise be.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article , Capitol wrote:
Well, I can see a situation where the estate agents will be offering
houses for viewing, not selling, without HIPs, on the understanding
that a worthless HIP will be provided if a serious offer is made. ie
the viewer pays a HIP fee!

The estate agent only gets paid when the sale goes through so it is in
his interest that this happens as smoothly as possibly. If the search is
going to throw up problems, the HIP process reveals that there is no PP
for the extension, the seller has lost some vital paperwork etc etc, then
the EA may decide that putting undue effort into marketing may not be
justified. Or IOW if you want the EA to work hard for you what better
incentive than to be able to show him that all the paperwork is there and
clean.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
[Latest version QSEDBUK 1.10 released 4 April 2005]

On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 22:59:19 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

Capitol wrote:

Well, I can see a situation where the estate agents will be offering
houses for viewing, not selling, without HIPs, on the understanding that
a worthless HIP will be provided if a serious offer is made. ie the
viewer pays a HIP fee!


More than likely... or someone will start doing bargain basement HIPs
for a flat rate fee that tick all the regulatory boxes and come so
stuffed with disclaimers as to render them even more pointless than they
would otherwise be.

But the government has said that the HIP must contain details of local
searches, and that is something that you just cannot get round. I had
to pay £135 for mine. Mind you, this could show that the government,
as ever, haven't thought through the fine details yet.

MM

MM wrote:

But the government has said that the HIP must contain details of local
searches, and that is something that you just cannot get round. I had
to pay £135 for mine. Mind you, this could show that the government,
as ever, haven't thought through the fine details yet.

or as usual they will achieve the opposite of what they set out to do!

I expect some of the bigger conveyancing firms - people like
"movewithus" etc will imply do a no sale no fee HIP pack. Bargain
basement survey etc put together but with the fee deferred until after
the sale. The vendor will no doubt add the fee to the amount asked for
the house, the buyer will not trust the vendors survey and pay for it
again. So everyone pays twice for the same thing, more paperwork, and
happy lawyers! You could be lead to the impression that there is some
connection between government and lawyers... oh hang on a mo...

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/