Started wiring up my kitchen ring tonight. Retrieved 50m reel of 2.5 t&e
from garage, ran first length. All nice and neat.

Lightbulb goes off.

Check the end of the cable.

Black and red. I've had this reel for quite some time. Go check the regs
and discover that I should have used it by March last year....

Rip it out[1], check garage. That's one reel of 6mm that's useless as
well. Pants. Not happy.

Ben

[1] The BCO will be inspecting this lot, so it needs to be all legal...

Ben Blaukopf wrote:
Started wiring up my kitchen ring tonight. Retrieved 50m reel of 2.5 t&e
from garage, ran first length. All nice and neat.

Lightbulb goes off.

Check the end of the cable.

Black and red. I've had this reel for quite some time. Go check the regs
and discover that I should have used it by March last year....

Rip it out[1], check garage. That's one reel of 6mm that's useless as
well. Pants. Not happy.

Ben

[1] The BCO will be inspecting this lot, so it needs to be all legal...
If there's some on the reel, sell it on ebay, it will almost certainly
sell e.g.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/6-0mm-Twin-and...QQcmdZViewItem
item number 270084044778


--
Spamtrap in use
To email replace 127.0.0.1 with btinternet dot com

Keep it for the jobs that the BCO may 'not be aware of'? ...well it's a
thought


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 20:21:19 +0000, Ben Blaukopf wrote:

Started wiring up my kitchen ring tonight. Retrieved 50m reel of 2.5 t&e
from garage, ran first length. All nice and neat.

Lightbulb goes off.

Check the end of the cable.

Black and red. I've had this reel for quite some time. Go check the regs
and discover that I should have used it by March last year....

Rip it out[1], check garage. That's one reel of 6mm that's useless as
well. Pants. Not happy.

Ben

[1] The BCO will be inspecting this lot, so it needs to be all legal...

===============================
Buy some of these:

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Ind...els/index.html

Cic.

--
================================
Testing UBUNTU Linux
Everything working so far
================================

In article ,
Ben Blaukopf wrote:
Started wiring up my kitchen ring tonight. Retrieved 50m reel of 2.5 t&e
from garage, ran first length. All nice and neat.

Lightbulb goes off.

Check the end of the cable.

Black and red. I've had this reel for quite some time. Go check the regs
and discover that I should have used it by March last year....

Rip it out[1], check garage. That's one reel of 6mm that's useless as
well. Pants. Not happy.

You must be the only one in the country paying attention to such tosh -
indeed many commercial installations refuse to use the new colours for
extending or repairs.

--
*If at first you don't succeed, avoid skydiving.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Ben Blaukopf wrote:
Started wiring up my kitchen ring tonight. Retrieved 50m reel of 2.5 t&e
from garage, ran first length. All nice and neat.

Lightbulb goes off.

Check the end of the cable.

Black and red. I've had this reel for quite some time. Go check the regs
and discover that I should have used it by March last year....

Rip it out[1], check garage. That's one reel of 6mm that's useless as
well. Pants. Not happy.

You must be the only one in the country paying attention to such tosh -
indeed many commercial installations refuse to use the new colours for
extending or repairs.

Don't think he's got much option if this is under BCO supervision though...

David

Cicero wrote:
On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 20:21:19 +0000, Ben Blaukopf wrote:

Started wiring up my kitchen ring tonight. Retrieved 50m reel of 2.5 t&e
from garage, ran first length. All nice and neat.

Lightbulb goes off.

Check the end of the cable.

Black and red. I've had this reel for quite some time. Go check the regs
and discover that I should have used it by March last year....

Rip it out[1], check garage. That's one reel of 6mm that's useless as
well. Pants. Not happy.

Ben

[1] The BCO will be inspecting this lot, so it needs to be all legal...

===============================
Buy some of these:

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Ind...els/index.html

?? But the BCO (or his electrically qualified deputy) will want to see
those anyway (once he's installed the correctly-coloured cable) but he
still isn't allowed to use his old cable on the new wiring (and if he
was allowed to he wouldn't need the labels so not sure what you're
getting at...)

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Ben Blaukopf wrote:
Started wiring up my kitchen ring tonight. Retrieved 50m reel of 2.5 t&e
from garage, ran first length. All nice and neat.

Lightbulb goes off.

Check the end of the cable.

Black and red. I've had this reel for quite some time. Go check the regs
and discover that I should have used it by March last year....

Rip it out[1], check garage. That's one reel of 6mm that's useless as
well. Pants. Not happy.

You must be the only one in the country paying attention to such tosh -
indeed many commercial installations refuse to use the new colours for
extending or repairs.

--
*If at first you don't succeed, avoid skydiving.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

I've not seen any commercial. Post some pictures

Cheers

Richard

On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 00:18:57 +0000, Lobster wrote:

Cicero wrote:
On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 20:21:19 +0000, Ben Blaukopf wrote:

Started wiring up my kitchen ring tonight. Retrieved 50m reel of 2.5
t&e from garage, ran first length. All nice and neat.

Lightbulb goes off.

Check the end of the cable.

Black and red. I've had this reel for quite some time. Go check the
regs and discover that I should have used it by March last year....

Rip it out[1], check garage. That's one reel of 6mm that's useless as
well. Pants. Not happy.

Ben

[1] The BCO will be inspecting this lot, so it needs to be all
legal...

===============================
Buy some of these:

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Ind...els/index.html

?? But the BCO (or his electrically qualified deputy) will want to see
those anyway (once he's installed the correctly-coloured cable) but he
still isn't allowed to use his old cable on the new wiring (and if he
was allowed to he wouldn't need the labels so not sure what you're
getting at...)

==================================
I assumed that the OP's house isn't currently wired to the new colour
wiring standard. If my assumption is correct it appears from the OP's post
that he is about to add wiring of the newer standard to his (presumed) old
colour standard installation. He expressed his intention to be legal.

I pointed him in the direction of the labels required to make the mix of
old and new legal. That's a perfectly reasonable thing to do in a DIY
newsgroup.

Cic.

On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 10:59:07 GMT, Cicero wrote:

I pointed him in the direction of the labels required to make the mix
of old and new legal. That's a perfectly reasonable thing to do in a
DIY newsgroup.

True as it stands but all new works have to be done in the new colours
and as the BCO has his fingers on this particular installation the OP
cannot use the old colours. He could use them for non-notifiable work
though...

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 11:36:01 +0000, Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 10:59:07 GMT, Cicero wrote:

I pointed him in the direction of the labels required to make the mix
of old and new legal. That's a perfectly reasonable thing to do in a
DIY newsgroup.

True as it stands but all new works have to be done in the new colours
and as the BCO has his fingers on this particular installation the OP
cannot use the old colours. He could use them for non-notifiable work
though...

===============================
A bit of confusion here I think.

I wrote:

"I assumed that the OP's house isn't currently wired to the new colour
wiring standard. If my assumption is correct it appears from the OP's post
that he is about to add wiring of the newer standard to his (presumed) old
colour standard installation. He expressed his intention to be legal.

I pointed him in the direction of the labels required to make the mix of
old and new legal. That's a perfectly reasonable thing to do in a DIY
newsgroup."

----------------------------

I wasn't suggesting that the OP should use the old standard cable - only
that the use of cables of different standards requires a warning notice to
indicate the use of two standards.

Cic.

--
================================
Testing UBUNTU Linux
Everything working so far
================================

I wasn't suggesting that the OP should use the old standard cable - only
that the use of cables of different standards requires a warning notice to
indicate the use of two standards.

Cic.

It was perfectly clear to me.

Dave

Cicero wrote:
I wasn't suggesting that the OP should use the old standard cable -
only that the use of cables of different standards requires a warning
notice to indicate the use of two standards.

Why would a mixture of colours need a warning label? I assume the cables
are the same spec, just different colours?

What I'm asking is how could a mixture of colours be a hazzard? Or is it
just the regs?


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 18:46:21 +0000, The Medway Handyman wrote:

Cicero wrote:
I wasn't suggesting that the OP should use the old standard cable -
only that the use of cables of different standards requires a warning
notice to indicate the use of two standards.

Why would a mixture of colours need a warning label? I assume the
cables are the same spec, just different colours?

What I'm asking is how could a mixture of colours be a hazzard? Or is
it just the regs?

===============================
It is to conform to regulations.

This is the relevant text taken from, "Modern wiring practice", by
W.E.Steward & T.A.Stubbs.

"In any installation, whether single- or three-phase, where two different
colour standards are present, a warning notice must be affixed at or near
distribution boards worded:

CAUTION
This installation has wiring colours to two versions of BS7671. Great
care should be taken before undertaking extension, alteration or repair
that all conductors are correctly identified."

--
================================
Testing UBUNTU Linux
Everything working so far
================================

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Ben Blaukopf wrote:
Started wiring up my kitchen ring tonight. Retrieved 50m reel of 2.5 t&e
from garage, ran first length. All nice and neat.

Lightbulb goes off.

Check the end of the cable.

Black and red. I've had this reel for quite some time. Go check the regs
and discover that I should have used it by March last year....

Rip it out[1], check garage. That's one reel of 6mm that's useless as
well. Pants. Not happy.

You must be the only one in the country paying attention to such tosh -
indeed many commercial installations refuse to use the new colours for
extending or repairs.

--
*If at first you don't succeed, avoid skydiving.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Not any more. You cannot get the old colours wunless you order 10km of
cable, so customer now have to put up with it.

--

Steve Dawson

On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 18:46:21 +0000, The Medway Handyman wrote:

Cicero wrote:
I wasn't suggesting that the OP should use the old standard cable -
only that the use of cables of different standards requires a warning
notice to indicate the use of two standards.

Why would a mixture of colours need a warning label? I assume the
cables are the same spec, just different colours?

What I'm asking is how could a mixture of colours be a hazzard? Or is
it just the regs?

===============================
It appears from information in, "Modern wiring practice", that the OP
could have used the old colour coded cable if he'd been prepared to argue
the point with his BCO.

This sentence, "IEE Regulation 514-03-02 states that every core of a cable
shall be identifiable *at its terminations* and preferably throughout its
length and IEE table 51 specifies the alphanumeric and colour
identification to be used." (My emphasis)

This seems to suggest that correctly colour coded identifiers can be used
at the *ends of cables*, but I'm not an electrician so it may mean
something quite different.

Cic.

--
================================
Testing UBUNTU Linux
Everything working so far
================================

In article ,
"Stephen Dawson" writes:

Not any more. You cannot get the old colours wunless you order 10km of
cable, so customer now have to put up with it.

We're just having an additional 1MVA supply and generator and transfer
switch put in at work, and all the offcuts of the larger new cables
are red/yellow/blue. When I'm back in the office next week, I'll ask
the electricians if they are still using the old colours throughout.

A former employer had banned mixing of the colour schemes on all sites,
as had a number of their customers (wiring closets all had notices
affixed saying use of the new colours was not permitted anywhere on
site). Apparently, a few sites have been using what became the new
colours for many years to distinguish UPS or clean supplies from
regular supplies (hospitals in particular that I've heard of).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 18:46:21 +0000, The Medway Handyman wrote:

Cicero wrote:
I wasn't suggesting that the OP should use the old standard cable -
only that the use of cables of different standards requires a warning
notice to indicate the use of two standards.

Why would a mixture of colours need a warning label? I assume the cables
are the same spec, just different colours?

What I'm asking is how could a mixture of colours be a hazzard? Or is it
just the regs?

At a practical level I agree with you, if you don't know the difference
between the old and new colours without a reminder sticker you probably
shouldn't be doing the job.

Alas, it's the regs.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
Gas Fitting Standards Docs he http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards

On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:46:21 -0000, The Medway Handyman wrote:

Why would a mixture of colours need a warning label? I assume the
cables are the same spec, just different colours?

Take a look at the new three phase colours.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
...
Cicero wrote:
I wasn't suggesting that the OP should use the old standard cable -
only that the use of cables of different standards requires a warning
notice to indicate the use of two standards.

Why would a mixture of colours need a warning label? I assume the cables
are the same spec, just different colours?

What I'm asking is how could a mixture of colours be a hazzard? Or is it
just the regs?

Well, I may be wrong but in the old colours black is the neutral but in the
new colours, black is a phase colour and 3-core and earth as may be used to
wire a two-way lighting circuit has a black conductor, so some unsuspecting
character could think he's dealing with a neutral when in fact it may be
live - maybe?

John.

On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:46:21 -0000 someone who may be "The Medway
Handyman" wrote this:-

What I'm asking is how could a mixture of colours be a hazzard?

Because in the old colours black was the neutral, now it is a phase.
In the old colours blue was a phase, now it is neutral (though the
colour of the two blues tends to be different).

Or is it just the regs?

The IEE got this right in my view. In single phase wiring what is
required is a warning notice at the origin of the installation.
People were already familiar with red to brown and black to blue
transitions, because they have occurred for decades going from fixed
wiring to cords.

In three phase wiring I think they were right to specify labelling
at each junction between the two colour schemes. Such wiring is
usually seen outwith houses, often with single cables in conduits
where it would be easier to make a mistake. Although a mistake
should be spotted in testing it is better not to make it.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

David Hansen wrote:
On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:46:21 -0000 someone who may be "The Medway
Handyman" wrote this:-

What I'm asking is how could a mixture of colours be a hazzard?

Because in the old colours black was the neutral, now it is a phase.
In the old colours blue was a phase, now it is neutral (though the
colour of the two blues tends to be different).

Or is it just the regs?

The IEE got this right in my view. In single phase wiring what is
required is a warning notice at the origin of the installation.
People were already familiar with red to brown and black to blue
transitions, because they have occurred for decades going from fixed
wiring to cords.

In three phase wiring I think they were right to specify labelling
at each junction between the two colour schemes. Such wiring is
usually seen outwith houses, often with single cables in conduits
where it would be easier to make a mistake. Although a mistake
should be spotted in testing it is better not to make it.


was there a reason for the change? it seems to me like they have created
a hazardous situation!

"Cuprager" wrote in message
...
David Hansen wrote:
On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:46:21 -0000 someone who may be "The Medway
Handyman" wrote this:-

What I'm asking is how could a mixture of colours be a hazzard?

Because in the old colours black was the neutral, now it is a phase.
In the old colours blue was a phase, now it is neutral (though the
colour of the two blues tends to be different).

Or is it just the regs?

The IEE got this right in my view. In single phase wiring what is
required is a warning notice at the origin of the installation.
People were already familiar with red to brown and black to blue
transitions, because they have occurred for decades going from fixed
wiring to cords.

In three phase wiring I think they were right to specify labelling
at each junction between the two colour schemes. Such wiring is
usually seen outwith houses, often with single cables in conduits
where it would be easier to make a mistake. Although a mistake
should be spotted in testing it is better not to make it.


was there a reason for the change? it seems to me like they have created a
hazardous situation!

what other reason but EU harmonization?

John

On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 16:21:18 +0000, Cuprager wrote:

was there a reason for the change?

Harmonisation.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

In article ,
Cuprager wrote:
was there a reason for the change? it seems to me like they have created
a hazardous situation!

It should have been changed many years ago along with flex.

--
*Virtual reality is its own reward *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

John wrote:
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
...

Cicero wrote:

I wasn't suggesting that the OP should use the old standard cable -
only that the use of cables of different standards requires a warning
notice to indicate the use of two standards.

Why would a mixture of colours need a warning label? I assume the cables
are the same spec, just different colours?

What I'm asking is how could a mixture of colours be a hazzard? Or is it
just the regs?


Well, I may be wrong but in the old colours black is the neutral but in the
new colours, black is a phase colour and 3-core and earth as may be used to
wire a two-way lighting circuit has a black conductor, so some unsuspecting
character could think he's dealing with a neutral when in fact it may be
live - maybe?

Amazed at how many responses there have been to this - nothing like a
moan about the regs to get everyone worked up.

Black was a phase colour too though, as switched live on light switches.
I gather some installations have the earth wire as a live on two-way
lighting where the installer ran out of three core...

I've got some old three core left over which I used for wiring my
thermostat. If the BCO moans about the colours then I'll change it, but
I doubt he will. I think doing my entire kitchen ring in old colours
might annoy him a bit though.

Old colours doesn't matter for non-notifiable work, since the new
colours have been around since April 04. I bought my house at the end of
'05 so I can't really claim that I did anything pre-P.

Colour change label has been on my system for ages anyway.

Ben

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.com...
On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 16:21:18 +0000, Cuprager wrote:

was there a reason for the change?

Harmonisation.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

You're not wrong but then again, neither was I, because I knew that the Z is
now accepted by the Oxford dictionary - ergo, no real reason for your
correction.

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/harmonize?view=uk

John.

On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 16:21:18 +0000 someone who may be Cuprager
wrote this:-

was there a reason for the change? it seems to me like they have created
a hazardous situation!

The IEE put off changing to the standardised colours for a very long
time, because they were concerned about danger. I would have done it
long ago, but the delay has the advantage that it has been possible
to get three colours for phase conductors that don't clash with
other schemes. That wouldn't really have been possible earlier.

Some of the changes to the colours for DC wiring are even more
fundamental.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

In article ,
David Hansen wrote:
The IEE put off changing to the standardised colours for a very long
time, because they were concerned about danger. I would have done it
long ago, but the delay has the advantage that it has been possible
to get three colours for phase conductors that don't clash with
other schemes. That wouldn't really have been possible earlier.

But the colours *do* clash - black being the old neutral. I realise it was
probably impossible to find a decent set of 'colours' that didn't clash
somewhere in the EU.

--
*My dog can lick anyone

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 21:13:13 -0000, John wrote:

You're not wrong but then again, neither was I, because I knew that the
Z is now accepted by the Oxford dictionary - ergo, no real reason for
your correction.

What are you wibbling about I didn't correct anybody I gave a single word
answer to the question asked.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

"John" wrote in message
...

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.com...
On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 16:21:18 +0000, Cuprager wrote:

was there a reason for the change?

Harmonisation.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

You're not wrong but then again, neither was I, because I knew that the Z
is now accepted by the Oxford dictionary - ergo, no real reason for your
correction.

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/harmonize?view=uk

John.

My sincere humble apologies to Mr. Liquorice. For some strange reason - and
not least because this posting appeared underneath mine - I got it in my
head that Dave was directing this post to me in order to correct my use of
the Z instead of the S in "harmonization", hence my defence of citing the
Oxford Dictionary. I now realize that I was completely mistaken and that
Dave was, in fact, replying to Cuprager.

Where the hell I got that idea from I do not know. I blame it on the tablets
)

John.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

But the colours *do* clash - black being the old neutral. I realise it was
probably impossible to find a decent set of 'colours' that didn't clash
somewhere in the EU.

Clashes in respect of blue and black were absolutely inevitable. The
reason that "the IEE" (actually the BS wiring regs committee JPEL/64)
delayed this change was to get the option to use _three_distinct_ phase
colours, so preserving the ability to determine the phase rotation
direction from the wiring colours. Elsewhere various combinations of
brown and black are used, with the consequence that the rotation becomes
a matter of trial and error, or needs to be determined with an instrument.

--
Andy