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Cable colours for 110v fixed wiring
For convenience of use in the workshop I've added wiring and EN 60309 yellow industrial outlets carrying 110v from a centre tapped site transformer switched on when power is required. There is a male wall mounted connector near the CU to pick up the outlet from the transformer and the wiring from that runs through the third compartment of the three compartment trunking to a few outlets around the walls. This trunking section is segregated and dedicated to the 110v wiring which is wired in PVC singles. I need to add some more outlets and am doing some additional 230v wiring as well and while looking at some other issues looked at the identification section 514 of BS7671 I had done the original wiring using red and black for the two 55v cables and green/yellow for the centre tapped earth on the argument of it being a single phase circuit. However, having thought about it, I rather wonder since one could argue that the two 55v cables are equivalent with neither being at or close to ground potential. There does not seem to be an official colour identification spec. in BS7671 (even in the new colours) to cover this case. It doesn't seem right to run it with two reds either, although I suppose one could argue that a red and a yellow as being two "phases" would be legitimate. Equally, it could be reasonably argued that two yellows be used, especially since they would be 6mm^2 and quite obvious as well as segregated on the basis that yellow is associated with the 110v transformer and outlets. I can't see anything that clearly covers this scenario of a split low voltage single phase a.c. circuit. Thoughts? ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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Cable colours for 110v fixed wiring
In article ,
Andy Hall writes: For convenience of use in the workshop I've added wiring and EN 60309 yellow industrial outlets carrying 110v from a centre tapped site transformer switched on when power is required. It doesn't seem right to run it with two reds either, although I I've seen it done (once) in two browns, which was a mixure of singles in conduit and T&E. This was before that would become the new colour replacing two reds of course. (These colour T&E have been in use in the Irish Republic for some years, so they probably have been available with some difficulty for long time.) Given the new colours, I would be tempted to go for two yellows now if it's all singles and you aren't using yellow for anything else. AFAIR, the yellow Arctic flex uses the standard brown/blue/green/yellow. suppose one could argue that a red and a yellow as being two "phases" would be legitimate. Equally, it could be reasonably argued that two yellows be used, especially since they would be 6mm^2 and quite obvious as well as segregated on the basis that yellow is associated with the 110v transformer and outlets. I guess you remembered to allow for 4 times the power loss due to voltage drop. -- Andrew Gabriel |
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Cable colours for 110v fixed wiring
In article , Andy Hall
writes Thoughts? My first reaction is that, although you have the 110v and 230v cables segregated in your trunking, it would be sensible to choose different colours for different voltages, purely as an identification aid in case you have a 'senior moment'. How about running the 110v cct in the American wiring colours - black for live/hot, white for neutral, green/yellow for earth? If you look at the flex wiring for 110v power tools, those are the colours used. -- A. Top posters. Q. What's the most annoying thing on Usenet? |
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Cable colours for 110v fixed wiring
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Cable colours for 110v fixed wiring
On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 10:20:38 +0100, Mike Tomlinson
wrote: In article , Andy Hall writes Thoughts? My first reaction is that, although you have the 110v and 230v cables segregated in your trunking, it would be sensible to choose different colours for different voltages, purely as an identification aid in case you have a 'senior moment'. I did debate that, although on pulling off the trunking lids it does become obvious because the wiring from the edge compartment drops only into the EN60309 sockets and nowhere else. How about running the 110v cct in the American wiring colours - black for live/hot, white for neutral, green/yellow for earth? If you look at the flex wiring for 110v power tools, those are the colours used. I considered that as well, except that American ground connection is green and not green/yellow, and there is potential confusion over black in the new wiring colours anyway. Added to this, I already have 6mm^2 black and red in the main section of the trunking to carry single phase 230v radial circuits for the machine outlets. ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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Cable colours for 110v fixed wiring
Andy Hall wrote in message . ..
For convenience of use in the workshop I've added wiring and EN 60309 yellow industrial outlets carrying 110v from a centre tapped site transformer switched on when power is required. There is a male wall mounted connector near the CU to pick up the outlet from the transformer and the wiring from that runs through the third compartment of the three compartment trunking to a few outlets around the walls. This trunking section is segregated and dedicated to the 110v wiring which is wired in PVC singles. I need to add some more outlets and am doing some additional 230v wiring as well and while looking at some other issues looked at the identification section 514 of BS7671 I had done the original wiring using red and black for the two 55v cables and green/yellow for the centre tapped earth on the argument of it being a single phase circuit. However, having thought about it, I rather wonder since one could argue that the two 55v cables are equivalent with neither being at or close to ground potential. There does not seem to be an official colour identification spec. in BS7671 (even in the new colours) to cover this case. It doesn't seem right to run it with two reds either, although I suppose one could argue that a red and a yellow as being two "phases" would be legitimate. Equally, it could be reasonably argued that two yellows be used, especially since they would be 6mm^2 and quite obvious as well as segregated on the basis that yellow is associated with the 110v transformer and outlets. I can't see anything that clearly covers this scenario of a split low voltage single phase a.c. circuit. Thoughts? If you use the same colours as something else, ie red or yellow/green, mistakes are liable to occur in future. A purpose of colour selcetion is to greatly reduce this chance. This is especially relevant with yellow/green colour, which I certainly would not use for the 0v line, any more than one would use it for 240v neutral. Regards, NT |
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Cable colours for 110v fixed wiring
On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 10:35:06 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:
Given that the 110v wiring is running in another compartment and is in 6mm^2, it is pretty obvious and yellow does seem reasonable ... From the "common sense" stand point the supply is balanced so there is not need to identify the phases (like there is in 3 phase) so the same colour can be used for both. Both are at 55v above earth and yellow is already associated with 110v "safe" supplies it therefore seems logical to use two yellows. The center tap, is that bonded to local earth or floating? If it is bonded and thus a real protective earth then green/yellow would be logical. If it's floating hum, well... -- Cheers Dave. pam is missing e-mail |
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Cable colours for 110v fixed wiring
"N. Thornton" wrote
| If you use the same colours as something else, ie red or yellow/green, | mistakes are liable to occur in future. A purpose of colour selcetion | is to greatly reduce this chance. This is especially relevant with | yellow/green colour, which I certainly would not use for the 0v line, | any more than one would use it for 240v neutral. But in this setting the 55-0-55 centre tap is earth, it's analogous to using red-yellow-blue and green/yellow on a three-phase supply with no neutral. Owain |
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Cable colours for 110v fixed wiring
On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 12:22:34 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote: On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 10:35:06 +0100, Andy Hall wrote: Given that the 110v wiring is running in another compartment and is in 6mm^2, it is pretty obvious and yellow does seem reasonable ... From the "common sense" stand point the supply is balanced so there is not need to identify the phases (like there is in 3 phase) so the same colour can be used for both. Both are at 55v above earth and yellow is already associated with 110v "safe" supplies it therefore seems logical to use two yellows. The center tap, is that bonded to local earth or floating? If it is bonded and thus a real protective earth then green/yellow would be logical. If it's floating hum, well... It is bonded to earth. Like you say and Andrew had also suggested, large yellow cables seem sensible. It isn't even as though phase identification is important as it is with three phase. Nevertheless, I'll probably connect it consistently. ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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Cable colours for 110v fixed wiring
In article ,
Andy Hall wrote: It doesn't seem right to run it with two reds either, although I suppose one could argue that a red and a yellow as being two "phases" would be legitimate. Equally, it could be reasonably argued that two yellows be used, especially since they would be 6mm^2 and quite obvious as well as segregated on the basis that yellow is associated with the 110v transformer and outlets. Absolutely no help, but I always use yellow for AC other than mains in electronics. Suppose it's because I didn't want to double up on every colour of equipment wire, and have that as one of my 24/0.2 reels. -- *Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.* Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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Cable colours for 110v fixed wiring
In article ,
Mike Tomlinson wrote: How about running the 110v cct in the American wiring colours - black for live/hot, white for neutral, green/yellow for earth? If you look at the flex wiring for 110v power tools, those are the colours used. I'd certainly *not* use black, given that it's already a designated colour. -- *Real men don't waste their hormones growing hair Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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Cable colours for 110v fixed wiring
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
writes I'd certainly *not* use black, given that it's already a designated colour. Andy did say that he has used segmented trunking. And if it were me installing the wiring, I'd use cable ties to group cables together to avoid confusion. Perhaps use grey instead of black? -- A. Top posters. Q. What's the most annoying thing on Usenet? |
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Cable colours for 110v fixed wiring
I can't see anything that clearly covers this scenario of a split low
voltage single phase a.c. circuit. Personally, I'd use new colours. Blue for neutral (0V) and two phase colours for the 55V, avoiding brown, purely to distinguish from standard 230V live. I would not use green/yellow unless it was used as a protective conductor, in which case green/yellow would be compulsory. Christian. |
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Cable colours for 110v fixed wiring
"Mike Tomlinson" wrote
| Andy did say that he has used segmented trunking. And if it | were me installing the wiring, I'd use cable ties to group | cables together to avoid confusion. Perhaps use grey instead | of black? Three-wire dc circuits are supposed to be L+ brown, Mid (possibly earthed) Blue, and L- Grey, so brown and grey would be 'consistent'. However "control circuits, ELV and other applications" phase colour can be Brown, Black, Red, Orange, Yellow, Violet, Grey, White, Pink or Turqoise. Neutral or Mid-wire is Blue. An earthed PELV conductor is blue. (from Wiring Matters). I think White is/was Telecomms Functional Earth, which might not be too happy about being mistaken for 55 V ac. Owain |
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Cable colours for 110v fixed wiring
On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 18:18:27 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote: I can't see anything that clearly covers this scenario of a split low voltage single phase a.c. circuit. Personally, I'd use new colours. Blue for neutral (0V) and two phase colours for the 55V, avoiding brown, purely to distinguish from standard 230V live. I would not use green/yellow unless it was used as a protective conductor, in which case green/yellow would be compulsory. Christian. I did think about that, but then thought that really the 0v is not really a neutral but more of a protective earth since it is connected to the case of the tool if it is not double insulated and through to earth at the transformer. It shouldn't be carrying current either except under fault conditions. Therefore I think that it should be green/yellow. Then the question is for the two 55v lines This really only leaves grey using the new colours because I would not want to use black. ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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Cable colours for 110v fixed wiring
"Andy Hall" wrote in message ... For convenience of use in the workshop I've added wiring and EN 60309 yellow industrial outlets carrying 110v from a centre tapped site transformer switched on when power is required. There is a male wall mounted connector near the CU to pick up the outlet from the transformer and the wiring from that runs through the third compartment of the three compartment trunking to a few outlets around the walls. This trunking section is segregated and dedicated to the 110v wiring which is wired in PVC singles. I need to add some more outlets and am doing some additional 230v wiring as well and while looking at some other issues looked at the identification section 514 of BS7671 I had done the original wiring using red and black for the two 55v cables and green/yellow for the centre tapped earth on the argument of it being a single phase circuit. However, having thought about it, I rather wonder since one could argue that the two 55v cables are equivalent with neither being at or close to ground potential. There does not seem to be an official colour identification spec. in BS7671 (even in the new colours) to cover this case. It doesn't seem right to run it with two reds either, although I suppose one could argue that a red and a yellow as being two "phases" would be legitimate. White is often used for both 110v wires in sound and lighting touring equipment to identify it as NOT one fo the three 240v phases or directly connected to it. Up to the 1970s white (line-ish) and black (neutral-ish) were used. |
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Cable colours for 110v fixed wiring
In article ,
G&M wrote: White is often used for both 110v wires in sound and lighting touring equipment to identify it as NOT one fo the three 240v phases or directly connected to it. That certainly makes more sense than yellow, but of course might be much more difficult to obtain. Up to the 1970s white (line-ish) and black (neutral-ish) were used. If it's off an isolating transformer, there's no such thing. -- *Acupuncture is a jab well done.* Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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Cable colours for 110v fixed wiring
In article ,
"G&M" writes: White is often used for both 110v wires in sound and lighting touring equipment to identify it as NOT one fo the three 240v phases or directly Not to be confused with cream, which is a clean earth. connected to it. Up to the 1970s white (line-ish) and black (neutral-ish) were used. Those are the US colours, except they're the wrong way round. -- Andrew Gabriel |
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Cable colours for 110v fixed wiring
"Owain" wrote in message ...
"N. Thornton" wrote | If you use the same colours as something else, ie red or yellow/green, | mistakes are liable to occur in future. A purpose of colour selcetion | is to greatly reduce this chance. This is especially relevant with | yellow/green colour, which I certainly would not use for the 0v line, | any more than one would use it for 240v neutral. But in this setting the 55-0-55 centre tap is earth, it's analogous to using red-yellow-blue and green/yellow on a three-phase supply with no neutral. Owain I'm a bit unclear what the OP is doing with the 110v CT wiring. I would have expected a power circuit to use N rather than E. 240v neutral is earth too, but theres reason we dont use it for CPC earth. The Americans do. Without knowing quite what OP is doing with that CT... Regards, NT |
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Cable colours for 110v fixed wiring
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , G&M wrote: White is often used for both 110v wires in sound and lighting touring equipment to identify it as NOT one fo the three 240v phases or directly connected to it. That certainly makes more sense than yellow, but of course might be much more difficult to obtain. Up to the 1970s white (line-ish) and black (neutral-ish) were used. If it's off an isolating transformer, there's no such thing. Not quite. B****y valve amps without transformers were the problem. Everything had to be carefully earthed to avoid ground buzz so convention was the black one could be connected to the common earth if needed, the white most definitely couldn't. Nowadays I think all such amps use isolating transformers and in any case all live (as opposed to soon to be dead) guitarists have protective cutouts on their leads. |
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Cable colours for 110v fixed wiring
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Cable colours for 110v fixed wiring
In article ,
G&M wrote: Up to the 1970s white (line-ish) and black (neutral-ish) were used. If it's off an isolating transformer, there's no such thing. Not quite. B****y valve amps without transformers were the problem. Everything had to be carefully earthed to avoid ground buzz so convention was the black one could be connected to the common earth if needed, the white most definitely couldn't. I mean the circuit - as in Andy's case, is fed from an isolating transformer, so there is no relation to earth - unless the centre tap is earthed, etc. I know what you mean about those bl***y awful AC/DC valve amps, though - death traps. Nowadays I think all such amps use isolating transformers and in any case all live (as opposed to soon to be dead) guitarists have protective cutouts on their leads. The better valve ones did then too. -- *How much deeper would the oceans be without sponges? * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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Cable colours for 110v fixed wiring
"Andy Hall" wrote in message
... Like you say and Andrew had also suggested, large yellow cables seem sensible. The correct answer to your original question though is undoubtably (IMHO) to use two reds (old colours) or browns (new colours). The conductors concerned are phase conductors of a single-phase AC circuit. Neither is a neutral because of the earthed centre tap. If you use yellow then to comply with BS 7671 all terminations need to be marked with red (brown if using new colours) sleeving. I agree with you that the distributed centre tap is a circuit protective conductor, not a neutral, and therfore should be grn/ylw and not black or blue. It isn't even as though phase identification is important as it is with three phase. Nevertheless, I'll probably connect it consistently. That's logical but not necessary. But I'd do the same :-) IMO a better approach, if you're concerned about identifying individual conductors or circuits in an installation where there's a large number of wires in one trunking system, is to use the correct BS 7671 colours in conjunction with wire number markings - for which systems are available from RS, etc. (as you probably already know) - and to keep relevant documentation. -- Andy |
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Cable colours for 110v fixed wiring
On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 11:20:48 +0100, "Andy Wade"
wrote: "Andy Hall" wrote in message .. . Like you say and Andrew had also suggested, large yellow cables seem sensible. The correct answer to your original question though is undoubtably (IMHO) to use two reds (old colours) or browns (new colours). The conductors concerned are phase conductors of a single-phase AC circuit. Neither is a neutral because of the earthed centre tap. This was one of my debates with myself because considering that it is a centre tapped supply, there are, in effect, two phases albeit not with the conventional 3 phase 120 degree shift. On the other hand, the centre tap is not a current carrying conductor, so after thinking some more I came to the same conclusion as you. In fact what I've done is to use yellows but to put red markers at each termination. I've used numbers as well, but I had been using those as well because there are becoming quite a large number of wires with all the radial circuits for outlets and machines being run. If you use yellow then to comply with BS 7671 all terminations need to be marked with red (brown if using new colours) sleeving. I agree with you that the distributed centre tap is a circuit protective conductor, not a neutral, and therfore should be grn/ylw and not black or blue. It isn't even as though phase identification is important as it is with three phase. Nevertheless, I'll probably connect it consistently. That's logical but not necessary. But I'd do the same :-) IMO a better approach, if you're concerned about identifying individual conductors or circuits in an installation where there's a large number of wires in one trunking system, is to use the correct BS 7671 colours in conjunction with wire number markings - for which systems are available from RS, etc. (as you probably already know) - and to keep relevant documentation. Yes, it's all going onto a spreadsheet. ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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Cable colours for 110v fixed wiring
"Andy Hall" wrote in message
... On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 11:20:48 +0100, "Andy Wade" wrote: The conductors concerned are phase conductors of a single-phase AC circuit. Neither is a neutral because of the earthed centre tap. This was one of my debates with myself because considering that it is a centre tapped supply, there are, in effect, two phases albeit not with the conventional 3 phase 120 degree shift. See sci.engr.electical.compliance /passim/ for interminable threads on the subject of "is it 1-phase 3-wire or is it 2-phase?". I prefer the former, reserving 2-phase to refer to two phases and neutral from a conventional 3-ph system, or two phases in quadrature. On the other hand, the centre tap is not a current carrying conductor, so after thinking some more I came to the same conclusion as you. Yes, in this case it's clearly a 2-wire single-phase circuit since there is no third live [1] conductor. Since neither wire is a neutral (see definition) they must both count as phase conductors (but are not separate phases of a polyphase system). QED. In fact what I've done is to use yellows but to put red markers at each termination. Fairynuff, that complies. Yes, it's all going onto a spreadsheet. A useful approach. I record things like the terminal numbers on neutral and earth bars for each circuit from a dis-board in the same way. [1] That's "live" in the BS 7671 sense of "load current carrying" - nothing to do with the voltage above earth. C.f. "protective conductor. -- Andy |
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Cable colours for 110v fixed wiring
On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 10:28:59 +0100, "Andy Wade"
wrote: "Andy Hall" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 11:20:48 +0100, "Andy Wade" wrote: The conductors concerned are phase conductors of a single-phase AC circuit. Neither is a neutral because of the earthed centre tap. This was one of my debates with myself because considering that it is a centre tapped supply, there are, in effect, two phases albeit not with the conventional 3 phase 120 degree shift. See sci.engr.electical.compliance /passim/ for interminable threads on the subject of "is it 1-phase 3-wire or is it 2-phase?". I prefer the former, reserving 2-phase to refer to two phases and neutral from a conventional 3-ph system, or two phases in quadrature. OK. This does make sense when presented that way, although I can't think of many scenarios where you would have two out of three phases used, apart perhaps, from wiring a large building with two phases only on different floors, each single phase, and not needing the third. On the other hand, the centre tap is not a current carrying conductor, so after thinking some more I came to the same conclusion as you. Yes, in this case it's clearly a 2-wire single-phase circuit since there is no third live [1] conductor. Since neither wire is a neutral (see definition) they must both count as phase conductors (but are not separate phases of a polyphase system). QED. Make sense. In fact what I've done is to use yellows but to put red markers at each termination. Fairynuff, that complies. Yes, it's all going onto a spreadsheet. A useful approach. I record things like the terminal numbers on neutral and earth bars for each circuit from a dis-board in the same way. Right. I've used the numbering from the bus bars and breakers, keeping them consistent, and prefixing with a 1 or 2 to mark which of the two stacked CUs. [1] That's "live" in the BS 7671 sense of "load current carrying" - nothing to do with the voltage above earth. C.f. "protective conductor. ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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Cable colours for 110v fixed wiring
On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 11:05:36 +0100, Andy Hall
strung together this: On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 10:28:59 +0100, "Andy Wade" wrote: "Andy Hall" wrote in message I can't think of many scenarios where you would have two out of three phases used, apart perhaps, from wiring a large building with two phases only on different floors, each single phase, and not needing the third. Although not very common there are 2-phase appliances like welders and other medium sized industrial machines. -- SJW A.C.S. Ltd |
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Cable colours for 110v fixed wiring
On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 11:20:48 +0100, "Andy Wade" wrote:
The conductors concerned are phase conductors of a single-phase AC circuit. Neither is a neutral because of the earthed centre tap. This was one of my debates with myself because considering that it is a centre tapped supply, there are, in effect, two phases albeit not with the conventional 3 phase 120 degree shift. See sci.engr.electical.compliance /passim/ for interminable threads on the subject of "is it 1-phase 3-wire or is it 2-phase?". I prefer the former, reserving 2-phase to refer to two phases and neutral from a conventional 3-ph system, or two phases in quadrature. Same looseness of terminology used here in Canada. Unfortunately. If the conductors are NOT actually the one, two or three phase wires of a three phase system, why refer to them as 'phase wires' at all? Why not use the term 'legs'. Two examples come to mind; On UK industrial sites AIUI transformers are used to step down 240 to 120 volts to power electric tools. A centre tap of the secondary of the transformer is earthed. Hence we have two conductors at around 60 volts to earth, for safety. Neither of those conductors are 'phase wires', they are two conductors of the same single phase. (Although not correct for AC one can almost think of them as plus 60 volts and minus 60 volts!). Also. In North America atypical is a SINGLE phase 13,000 volt feed to the local distribution transformer where it steps down to 230 volts centre tapped. Three wires come from each distribution transformer to several houses. The centre tap is considered zero potential and is earthed; the maximum voltage to earth is therefore 115 volts (RMS). The three wires are all on the same single phase. In fact the nearest place, in our case, that three phase is available is some distance away. Three phase is rarely, if ever supplied to a domestic installation.. After the three wire service enters the house one of the legs is generally black and the other red. The 115 volt loads are distributed, hopefully evenly between the two legs and neutral, using single pole breakers. Heavier loads such as water heaters, clothes dryers, electric cooking etc. are connected between the two legs providing 230 volts using double pole breakers. But it's all single phase! 200 amp service at 230 volts (46Kva) is normal these days for a typical house. Although I have seen one very large house that had two such 200 amp services; they must have extra load such as a indoor pool and/or some kind of elevator. (Growing marijuana also requires much light btw!). |
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Cable colours for 110v fixed wiring
"Lurch" wrote in message ...
Although not very common there are 2-phase appliances like welders and other medium sized industrial machines. Yes, but if they're just connected across 2 of the 3 phases then they're really 400V single phase. (In principle you could run such an item off a 230V single phase supply using a step-up transformer.) Only if a neutral connection is needed to provide a 230V supply for control circuits, or whatever, would it be correct to describe it as 2-phase. -- Andy |
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