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#1
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
We are currently looking at updating our central heating and DHW. The
existing system is old and looks like it has been cobbled together at various points in the past - for this reason and to facilitate other house work, we are planning on putting the new boiler and DHW tank in the loft. Following research on google we have decided that an indirect Pandora heatbank best fits our DHW needs (mains pressure is sufficient and the ongoing safer operation vs a traditional unvented cylinder appeals to SWMBO). Apologies if the following appears to ramble - I am not an expert and profess only to have gained my knowledge from this exceelent group and many of the learned regular posters... Not fully DIY but for reasons of speed and time we will be employing a plumber to do the installing (I am however doing the design/specifying). As seems to be the norm he was very reluctant when I first mentioned the Heatbank to him and he was steering me towards an unvented cylinder ...after running through the spec with him (downloaded from DPS) in words of 1 syllable he has now come round to the idea - probably as he can see the pre-plumbing of various parts makes his life easier...! The Pandora I have initially specified is 180l / 100kw / inlcuding two 2 port valves (S plan) that would serve heating/DHW. Now the main issue - choosing an appropriate boiler to cater for the heatbank and also serve the heating (radiator) system. Following various discussions with my plumber we have calculated our heating requirements at around 26kw and to err on the side of caution we are looking at boilers between 28-31kw. Following a number of positive posts and reserach into the features offered by the Man Micromat (outside weather compensation/analogue temperature DHW sensing/fully modulating pump etc etc) I have looked into the Man Micromat H or HS series. I like the idea of these features and also the ability (AIUI) to have a different set temperature for DHW and a separate temperature for the heating. Following considerable discussion with Eco Hometec they have raised a number of issues that are bascially steeering me away from choosing the Man: 1) The Man DHW probe can only sense temperatures upto 65deg - the heatbank is suited to be heated to 75/80deg therefore not really suitable. The Pandora has its own sensor(s) however these do not directly feed into the boiler. Maybe this isn't a problem? 2) Due to the wiring of the Pandora (?) only one fixed temperature output from the boiler will be provided therefore the separate setting of temperatures for DHW/heating is not possible? 3) Due to number 2) the fully modulating room sensor and outside weather compensator would not be required? I am slightly confused as all of the literature I have read suggested the ability to run separate temperatures for heating/DHW and now it seems as though this isn't possible and therefore all of the additional features the boiler is capable of are also not relevant? Unfortunately am not expert enough in all this to argue the toss greatly so was hoping for some additional input from the group? a) Does the Pandora negate the need to have a "complex" boiler like the Man? b) Would a Pandora without zone valves etc team up with Man and its own diverter etc? Perhaps I should just be looking at a simpler 28-31kw boiler to avoid any unecessary complications? Many thanks to all replies in advance Robin |
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
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#3
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
Andy,
Many thanks for your thorough and speedy response. If I may just raise a few issues/questions underneath snipped parts of your post: It is desirable to run a heatbank at 80 degrees plus if you can for DHW purposes, simply because you can store more energy and have a greater run time before the store runs out. However, if the store is fairly large, as you are suggesting, this may not be an issue. Keep in mind as well that the boiler can be arranged to fire quite early on following a tap being turned on and will start contributing heat back into the heatbank immediately, thus lengthening run time. As per normal usage ie cylinder stat or similar kicking in or via the installation of a flow switch? Under normal usage conditions I agree that heating to 70 degrees should be sufficient with a 180l store. I use the analogue temperature sensor for the DHW cylinder and it works well.However, it is also possible to use a conventional thermostat if you like. The Pandora can come with 1 or 2 immersed Danfoss stats that sound very similar to the Man immersed stat - I had considered a straight replacement for the Man one but given the benefit of reaching a higher temperature it is probably better to opt for the Pandora's own. The issue I have is how to decipher the wiring back into the boiler as Eco's stressed that the boiler is primarliy designed for low voltage connections ie the Man RE2132 unit/outside weather compensator and cylinder probe all attach via the low voltage rail whereas the heatbank cylinder probe(s) would be wired into the wiring centre on the heatbank itself? Let me answer a few of your points. - The boiler temperature for DHW can be set to up to 70 degrees, not 65. I just checked. - You can have separate temperatures from the boiler for DHW and CH. I do exactly this. It is a case of choosing the correct function number on the boiler. I use number 38, which is not one that Eco Hometec was familiar with. This uses the weather compensation sensor and the 2132 room controller for the heating. It also allows the max flow temperature to be 85 degrees. There is a similar setting if it were preferred to use a conventional room thermostat. As you have probably read, there is an integral pump and on some models an internal diverter valve. I went for the boiler without diverter valve because I wanted to have S-plan with a number of valves. So no additional diverter in your system or you use an external diverter in addition to the zone valves? In this case, the boiler has two mains outputs. Normally, only one is used and is for operating an external diverter valve. This behaviour happens for the low numbered function settings and the second output isn't used. However, in the higher number modes, the second output is intended to drive an external pump when in heating mode. The complete S-plan solution then becomes easy. The first output is used to control a zone valve for the HW cylinder or heatbank. The second for a zone valve for the heating. Behaviour is then as follows: - With heating turned on, the boiler runs based on the weather compensator and room sensor/thermostat. It *can* run at up to 85 degrees flow, but doesn't. I moved radiators around and replaced some such that I can get enough heat to deal with the standard -3 degree outside temperature with the boiler running at 70 degree flow and 50 degree return. In practice, it is unusual for the flow to exceed 60 degrees except following startup on the coldest days. Quite often, the flow is as low as 40 degrees and the boiler sits running all day like that. - As soon as there is DHW demand, the boiler cuts power to the second output, closing the CH zone valve(s) and powers the first output, opening the cylinder zone valve. It then fires up to full output and flow temperature rising to 85 degrees output. Do you utlise a wiring centre in your setup or do you wire each of the valves back to the boiler? This is what I thought I was specifying on the Heatbank ie separate zone valves for DHW and CH however the issue seemed to be that these are pre wired into the wiring centre on the Heatbank and for convenience you have one mains wire intended to go into the boiler (3 perm L N and E and a switched live) - AIUI the boiler is primarily intended to function via low voltage connections therefore I would need to install a relay of some kind but even then I couldn't really figure if this is how the boiler is intended to pick up these signals or not? I did speak to them about this and considered the HS model as it has 2 flows and 2 returns and I could separate one each for the heatbank and heating and utilise the internal diverter to do the work however Eco's suggested that this with contra building regs that required the usage of additional zone valves - I didn't argue further as I haven't read the necessary regs in that much detail but it sounded at odds with logic if the boiler has separate flows and returns for each section and it has it's own diverter then surely if it's wired up correctly then there should only be calls on the boiler when required, why would I need further valves? So to summarise: - It's a good boiler and you could team it up quite easily with a heatbank or fast recovery cylinder - You could heat the heatbank to 70 degrees using the analogue sensor or more if you went for a conventional cyllinder thermostat or better an electronic on/off one with cylinder sensor. Danfoss Randall and others make these. The advantage compared with a crude bimetallic strip type is that they have better accuracy and tighter hysteresis. The analogue sensor does give the boiler information about the actual temperature as opposed to a demand/satisfied signal, but other than detecting the temperature fall when a tap is turned on slightly earlier, I don't think that a lot is lost. - There is a considerable advantage in having the outside temperature detection and the fully modulated pump for CH purposes. You get much better control and behaviour of the system in terms of temperature stability plus the lower average running temperatures for the circuit and greater running efficiency. - I would go for the Micromat without diverter and drive the heatbank directly with it. The boiler will drive the CH very well and control it on its own. I would buy one again. Utlising the pre plumbed S plan setup? if so then this seemed to me to be the best approach however what with the possible issues over wiring and some of the information I have had back I have rethought my original plan and ended up confusing myself even more I think! /andy |
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#5
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
On Sat, 20 May 2006 19:02:49 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote
(in article ews.net): "Andy Hall" aka Matt wrote in message ... .. - As soon as there is DHW demand, the boiler cuts power to the second output, closing the CH zone valve(s) and powers the first output, opening the cylinder zone valve. It then fires up to full output and flow temperature rising to 85 degrees output. Matt, how does your boiler model know that DHW is calling if fitted with either a stat or temp sensor? There is a setting on the controller in the boiler to select whether the DHW demand sensing is by a contact closure (i.e. thermostat) or a temperature sensor. There is a similar one for CH control where the sensing is between thermostat contact, a PWM signal from a Siemens or other controller or 0-10 or 0-3v analogue control. |
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
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#7
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
Thanks again Andy, the situation does seem a little clearer to me - it
is only that involving an external party (installer) in my installation means additional complications especially as the boiler isn't an "off the shelf" product it seems to be easier for him to say it can't be done etc as opposed to looking into things in a bit more detail. Perhaps I should be finding someone who is a little more flexible... Apologies for continually rehashing my questioning but you seem to have the practical input that neither DPS nor Eco's could feed back to me, you don't do callouts do you !?  If I go for H series boiler and no additonal zone valves on the heatbank I will still need some form of diverter (either from Eco's or an off the shelf diverter?) presumably so the flow can be directed appropriately? The wiring for this seems straighforward and goes directly into the mains rail of the boiler? I can specify a Heatbank without any additional zone valves ie the only additional items on the cylinder are a circulating pump / flow switch / backup immersion element (DHW controls) and thermostats (only item affecting boiler behaviour). The suggested wiring diagram for this setup appears relatively strightforward however it still outputs a single swiched live to the boiler, however, I don't see that this is any dfferent to standard cylinder installation and akin to the type 2 installation schematic on the MHS technical manual? The Eco manual is a little lacking here and they describe the equivalent as the wiring for the room stat however whether it's room stat or cylinder stat the boiler should know that it is being called upon and fire up and then the diverter should take care of diverting the flow appropriately? AIUI the heating side would then just be a case of wiring in the low voltage outside weather compensator and RE2132 onto the low voltage rail? Thanks again in advance Robin |
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#8
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
"Andy Hall" aka Matt wrote in message ... On Sat, 20 May 2006 19:02:49 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote (in article ews.net): "Andy Hall" aka Matt wrote in message ... . - As soon as there is DHW demand, the boiler cuts power to the second output, closing the CH zone valve(s) and powers the first output, opening the cylinder zone valve. It then fires up to full output and flow temperature rising to 85 degrees output. Matt, how does your boiler model know that DHW is calling if fitted with either a stat or temp sensor? There is a setting on the controller in the boiler to select whether the DHW demand sensing is by a contact closure (i.e. thermostat) or a temperature sensor. When a stat detects DHW is calling the boiler just then runs up to what the maximum temperature the boiler is set at? Demand sensing - this will be a DHW setpoint (cylinder temp) set at the boiler. Below and the boioer runs up the the max boioer temp set? There is a similar one for CH control where the sensing is between thermostat contact, a PWM signal from a Siemens or other controller or 0-10 or 0-3v analogue control. External control which incorporates the burner modualtion rather than on-off. |
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
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#10
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
On Sun, 21 May 2006 10:08:05 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote
(in article ews.net): "Andy Hall" aka Matt wrote in message ... On Sat, 20 May 2006 19:02:49 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote (in article ews.net): "Andy Hall" aka Matt wrote in message ... . - As soon as there is DHW demand, the boiler cuts power to the second output, closing the CH zone valve(s) and powers the first output, opening the cylinder zone valve. It then fires up to full output and flow temperature rising to 85 degrees output. Matt, how does your boiler model know that DHW is calling if fitted with either a stat or temp sensor? There is a setting on the controller in the boiler to select whether the DHW demand sensing is by a contact closure (i.e. thermostat) or a temperature sensor. When a stat detects DHW is calling the boiler just then runs up to what the maximum temperature the boiler is set at? Exactly. Demand sensing - this will be a DHW setpoint (cylinder temp) set at the boiler. Below and the boioer runs up the the max boioer temp set? Yes again. There is a similar one for CH control where the sensing is between thermostat contact, a PWM signal from a Siemens or other controller or 0-10 or 0-3v analogue control. External control which incorporates the burner modualtion rather than on-off. Yep. (You're getting good at this :-) ) The Siemens (was Landis & Gyr) RE2132 controller which is specifically intended for this boiler, AFAIK, (possibly special firmware), has a setting to adjust the relative balance between the external weather sensor and internal sensing. Thus one can have different response behaviour according to nature of house. It takes care of optimised start as well. The other input methods are used in commercial applications when multiple boilers are cascaded and a cascading controller is used to handle up to 9 of the boilers. |
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#11
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
"Andy Hall" wrote in message ... On Sun, 21 May 2006 10:08:05 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote (in article ews.net): "Andy Hall" aka Matt wrote in message ... On Sat, 20 May 2006 19:02:49 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote (in article ews.net): "Andy Hall" aka Matt wrote in message ... . - As soon as there is DHW demand, the boiler cuts power to the second output, closing the CH zone valve(s) and powers the first output, opening the cylinder zone valve. It then fires up to full output and flow temperature rising to 85 degrees output. Matt, how does your boiler model know that DHW is calling if fitted with either a stat or temp sensor? There is a setting on the controller in the boiler to select whether the DHW demand sensing is by a contact closure (i.e. thermostat) or a temperature sensor. When a stat detects DHW is calling the boiler just then runs up to what the maximum temperature the boiler is set at? Exactly. Demand sensing - this will be a DHW setpoint (cylinder temp) set at the boiler. Below and the boiler runs up the the max boiler temp set? Yes again. There is a similar one for CH control where the sensing is between thermostat contact, a PWM signal from a Siemens or other controller or 0-10 or 0-3v analogue control. External control which incorporates the burner modualtion rather than on-off. Yep. (You're getting good at this :-) ) You should learn how to describe what it does. :-( The Siemens (was Landis & Gyr) RE2132 controller which is specifically intended for this boiler, AFAIK, (possibly special firmware), has a setting to adjust the relative balance between the external weather sensor and internal sensing. Thus one can have different response behaviour according to nature of house. It takes care of optimised start as well. The other input methods are used in commercial applications when multiple boilers are cascaded and a cascading controller is used to handle up to 9 of the boilers. |
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#12
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
On Sun, 21 May 2006 12:41:31 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote
(in article ews.net): Matt, how does your boiler model know that DHW is calling if fitted with either a stat or temp sensor? There is a setting on the controller in the boiler to select whether the DHW demand sensing is by a contact closure (i.e. thermostat) or a temperature sensor. When a stat detects DHW is calling the boiler just then runs up to what the maximum temperature the boiler is set at? Exactly. Demand sensing - this will be a DHW setpoint (cylinder temp) set at the boiler. Below and the boiler runs up the the max boiler temp set? Yes again. There is a similar one for CH control where the sensing is between thermostat contact, a PWM signal from a Siemens or other controller or 0-10 or 0-3v analogue control. External control which incorporates the burner modualtion rather than on-off. Yep. (You're getting good at this :-) ) You should learn how to describe what it does. :-( I was trying to keep it simple so that you would understand. |
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#13
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
"Andy Hall" aka Matt wrote in message ... On Sun, 21 May 2006 12:41:31 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote (in article ews.net): Matt, how does your boiler model know that DHW is calling if fitted with either a stat or temp sensor? There is a setting on the controller in the boiler to select whether the DHW demand sensing is by a contact closure (i.e. thermostat) or a temperature sensor. When a stat detects DHW is calling the boiler just then runs up to what the maximum temperature the boiler is set at? Exactly. Demand sensing - this will be a DHW setpoint (cylinder temp) set at the boiler. Below and the boiler runs up the the max boiler temp set? Yes again. There is a similar one for CH control where the sensing is between thermostat contact, a PWM signal from a Siemens or other controller or 0-10 or 0-3v analogue control. External control which incorporates the burner modualtion rather than on-off. Yep. (You're getting good at this :-) ) You should learn how to describe what it does. :-( I was trying to keep it simple so that you would understand. Matt, I know what it does. Others reading didn't have a clue, reading what you wrote. |
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#14
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
On Sun, 21 May 2006 16:20:54 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote
(in article ews.net): External control which incorporates the burner modualtion rather than on-off. Yep. (You're getting good at this :-) ) You should learn how to describe what it does. :-( I was trying to keep it simple so that you would understand. Matt, I know what it does. Then why ask? Others reading didn't have a clue, reading what you wrote. Sigh.... |
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#15
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
On Sat, 20 May 2006 02:44:58 -0700, wrote:
... we are planning on putting the new boiler and DHW tank in the loft. Following research on google we have decided that an indirect Pandora heatbank best fits our DHW needs .... The Pandora I have initially specified is 180l / 100kw / inlcuding two 2 port valves (S plan) that would serve heating/DHW. That's going to be fun to get into your loft! (and to site safely) Now the main issue - choosing an appropriate boiler to cater for the heatbank and also serve the heating (radiator) system. Following various discussions with my plumber we have calculated our heating requirements at around 26kw and to err on the side of caution we are looking at boilers between 28-31kw. That's an awful lot of heat. How many rooms does your mansion have, to the nearest dozen? :-) Have you checked with the whole-house calculations on http://www.est.org.uk/housingbuildin.../boilersizing/ and http://www.idhe.org.uk/calculator.html (Note that the latter is wrong for mid-floor flats, at least.) I'd expect to size a boiler at around 10-15kW for normal sized houses. OTOH if you can afford a Pandora and a MAN then maybe you also have a house with that sort of heating requirement :-) |
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#16
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
"John Stumbles" wrote in message news 
Now the main issue - choosing an appropriate boiler to cater for the heatbank and also serve the heating (radiator) system. Following various discussions with my plumber we have calculated our heating requirements at around 26kw and to err on the side of caution we are looking at boilers between 28-31kw. That's an awful lot of heat. How many rooms does your mansion have, to the nearest dozen? :-) The MAN can go down to 3kW so not a problem for the CH, but will heat the Pandora zippo with DHW priority. Or he could use a Glow Worm condensing boiler, (modulates down to 5kW) and a stand alone Danfoss BEM 5000 weather compensator (about £190), with has the cyl' stat wired directly into it and gives full heat of DHW and weather compensted on CH. The compensator may be giving a CH flow temp of 45C, but when DHW is called the full 80C is given to the cylinder, modulating down when near heated. |
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#17
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
John Stumbles wrote: On Sat, 20 May 2006 02:44:58 -0700, wrote: ... we are planning on putting the new boiler and DHW tank in the loft. Following research on google we have decided that an indirect Pandora heatbank best fits our DHW needs ... The Pandora I have initially specified is 180l / 100kw / inlcuding two 2 port valves (S plan) that would serve heating/DHW. That's going to be fun to get into your loft! (and to site safely) Now the main issue - choosing an appropriate boiler to cater for the heatbank and also serve the heating (radiator) system. Following various discussions with my plumber we have calculated our heating requirements at around 26kw and to err on the side of caution we are looking at boilers between 28-31kw. That's an awful lot of heat. How many rooms does your mansion have, to the nearest dozen? :-) Have you checked with the whole-house calculations on http://www.est.org.uk/housingbuildin.../boilersizing/ and http://www.idhe.org.uk/calculator.html (Note that the latter is wrong for mid-floor flats, at least.) I'd expect to size a boiler at around 10-15kW for normal sized houses. OTOH if you can afford a Pandora and a MAN then maybe you also have a house with that sort of heating requirement :-) Admittedly I have left most of the calculations to the plumber but the house is probably slightly larger than average, detached and rather draughty underfloor (1928 built). As DD has pointed out in choosing a fully modulating boiler it should adjust where necessary... I could opt for a more economic solution however having reserached the market there seems to be much of a muchness amongst the cheaper to mid range boilers and choosing between them seems to be very difficult however, the Man and a couple of others come highly recommended and do seem to stand a little above the rest in terms of functionality and build quality. Horses for courses I guess as they do cost considerably more as well. As stated above I am employing an installer to do the actual fitting and this in itself has it's own complications especially as he would rather I go for a cheaper more mainstream boiler but I haven't yet given up hope of converting him. SWMBO, of course, doesn't understand why I am going to all the trouble of speccing such a complex and expensive boiler  I am still workingon her although as soon as I mention outside weather compensation she sends out a huge sigh! |
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
Thanks Andy. I want to keep things as simple as possible especially
for the wiring side (for me and the plumber) so if possible I want to avoid the use of additional relays etc so my latest considerations a AIUI HS boiler - 1 flow/return for DHW and 1 flow/return for heating. Internal diverter to direct flow - this should be pre wired. Heatbank fitted with 2 cylinder stats. I need to check with DPS on wiring compatability but from the looks of it this can be wired back onto the mains rail of the boiler itself? Heating controlled by outside weather compensation and RE2132 room unit? Are the 2 stats on the cylinder and and heating controls sufficient to be classed as the boiler interlocks? From an inexperienced viewpoint this seems to cater for my needs but am not sure if am missing something? Any input greatly appreciated. Robin |
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
I have looked at the glow worm and it is considerably cheaper and out
of what is available seems to be a reasonable product. If I can't get suitable answers from DPS and Eco Hometec regarding the Man and the Pandora then I may yet go down this route. |
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
I have looked at the glow worm and it is considerably cheaper and out
of what is available seems to be a reasonable product. If I can't get suitable answers from DPS and Eco Hometec regarding the Man and the Pandora then I may yet go down this route. Also, consider the Worcester Bosch Greenstar with additional diverter valve (assuming they still make it in the new range). This allows separate temperature settings for DHW and CH. Technically, the DHW is (or was in the previous version) limited to 75C and the CH is limited to 85C, but we couldn't see a reason why you couldn't swap the circuits, although a relay might be required to get DHW priority instead of CH priority. This way, the boiler can produce 82-85C for the Pandora and drop to 60C for the CH, which is safer and more efficient. I have the WB and the Pandora, but didn't specify the diverter, which I probably regret now, as I have to run the rads too hot. Christian. |
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
"Christian McArdle" wrote in message ... I have looked at the glow worm and it is considerably cheaper and out of what is available seems to be a reasonable product. If I can't get suitable answers from DPS and Eco Hometec regarding the Man and the Pandora then I may yet go down this route. Also, consider the Worcester Bosch Greenstar with additional diverter valve (assuming they still make it in the new range). This allows separate temperature settings for DHW and CH. I tried to get info from W-B on this and I'm sure they said you can't have two temps. Technically, the DHW is (or was in the previous version) limited to 75C and the CH is limited to 85C, but we couldn't see a reason why you couldn't swap the circuits, although a relay might be required to get DHW priority instead of CH priority. This way, the boiler can produce 82-85C for the Pandora and drop to 60C for the CH, which is safer and more efficient. I have the WB and the Pandora, but didn't specify the diverter, which I probably regret now, as I have to run the rads too hot. Buy a Danfoss BEM 5000, that will do they job for you. I saw one on ebay that went for £22 brand new plus £5 postage. ~£200 worth of compensator for buttons. Most don't understand them and can't see what they can get from them, thinking a modulating boiler is the answer. Modulating on a setpoint boiler temp is not the same load compensation compensation. The Savastat does load compensation control of a boiler by switching in and and out the burner. It is not that cheap and I would go for the Danfoss BEM 5000 as a weather compensator has feed forward control. Both have anti-cycle control. |
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
wrote in message oups.com... John Stumbles wrote: On Sat, 20 May 2006 02:44:58 -0700, wrote: ... we are planning on putting the new boiler and DHW tank in the loft. Following research on google we have decided that an indirect Pandora heatbank best fits our DHW needs ... The Pandora I have initially specified is 180l / 100kw / inlcuding two 2 port valves (S plan) that would serve heating/DHW. That's going to be fun to get into your loft! (and to site safely) Now the main issue - choosing an appropriate boiler to cater for the heatbank and also serve the heating (radiator) system. Following various discussions with my plumber we have calculated our heating requirements at around 26kw and to err on the side of caution we are looking at boilers between 28-31kw. That's an awful lot of heat. How many rooms does your mansion have, to the nearest dozen? :-) Have you checked with the whole-house calculations on http://www.est.org.uk/housingbuildin.../boilersizing/ and http://www.idhe.org.uk/calculator.html (Note that the latter is wrong for mid-floor flats, at least.) I'd expect to size a boiler at around 10-15kW for normal sized houses. OTOH if you can afford a Pandora and a MAN then maybe you also have a house with that sort of heating requirement :-) Admittedly I have left most of the calculations to the plumber but the house is probably slightly larger than average, detached and rather draughty underfloor (1928 built). As DD has pointed out in choosing a fully modulating boiler it should adjust where necessary... I could opt for a more economic solution however having reserached the market there seems to be much of a muchness amongst the cheaper to mid range boilers and choosing between them seems to be very difficult however, the Man and a couple of others come highly recommended and do seem to stand a little above the rest in terms of functionality and build quality. Horses for courses I guess as they do cost considerably more as well. As stated above I am employing an installer to do the actual fitting and this in itself has it's own complications especially as he would rather I go for a cheaper more mainstream boiler but I haven't yet given up hope of converting him. SWMBO, of course, doesn't understand why I am going to all the trouble of speccing such a complex and expensive boiler I am still workingon her although as soon as I mention outside weather compensation she sends out a huge sigh! Just say it's far more reliable and very cheap to run. That's all they need to know. As regards the plumber, just lay down the specs and say deliver, what he thinks is irrelevant. When it comes to finer points of heating most haven't much of a clue, just slamming in cheapish boilers in unbalanced systems. |
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#23
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
"Christian McArdle" wrote in message ... Also, consider the Worcester Bosch Greenstar with additional diverter valve (assuming they still make it in the new range). This allows separate temperature settings for DHW and CH. I tried to get info from W-B on this and I'm sure they said you can't have two temps. Ah. So the new range doesn't have this option? That's a real shame. I would have thought that more boiler manufacturers would be making such products due to the recent shift in requirements. Central heating systems (both rads and underfloor) are now designed for much lower temperatures than previously both for operational and efficiency reasons. Hot water systems, now often heatbanks or fitted with TMVs, are often designed for higher temperatures to improve capacity, performance and biological safety. Just the provision of a terminal allowing for 2 set temps would be enough. Christian. The W-B techies on he phone wasn't that clued up I may add, and appeared to be speaking from crib sheet. So you might be right. I fully agree. It is a simple thing to incorporate into a modern boiler. Even Ravenheat have this facility. But a Danfoss BEM 5000 waether compensator does offer this facility with a stand alone third party product and will enhance efficient condensing operation by lowering the flow temp to the conditions. And you only need a cheapish boiler too. I always did it with a basic weather compensator using a relay switching out the compensators burner signal Most condensing boiler will be less efficient heating DHW rather than CH, although ACV HeatMaster condenses when heating DHW, because of the way the tank in tank thermal store is configured. |
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#24
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
"Andy Hall" aka Matt wrote in message ... On Mon, 22 May 2006 13:50:31 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote (in article ews.net): Buy a Danfoss BEM 5000, that will do they job for you. I saw one on ebay that went for £22 brand new plus £5 postage. ~£200 worth of compensator for buttons. Most don't understand them and can't see what they can get from them, thinking a modulating boiler is the answer. Modulating on a setpoint boiler temp is not the same as load compensation. This type of thing is a very poor option in comparison with a proper weather compensation on the boiler controller whereby it knows what the temperature is. Matt, it knows what the temperature is as it senses the return temperature of the heating. It might be worth £22, but certainly not £200. Matt, you must have brain damage. Control of the boiler is on/off which is the weak part of the whole thing. While it is able to take outside temperature into account and be reasonable if one already has a simple switched boiler, it has to resort to timed anticycle to prevent reduction in efficiency as a result of on/off firing. The boiler will still modulate. If the flow and return temperature close up the burner modulates. As the compensator knows roughly what the return temp should be in relation to the outside temp and the return temp is stable anyhow, cycling will be minimal. The boiler has anticycle control too. The better option is undoubtedly an integrated weather compensator coupled with room temperature sensing and boiler and pump output control. But these cost a hell of a lot, and having one with DHW priority too (running up the boioer temp to max) is not that common. A good cheap boiler like the Glow Worm and Danfoss BEM 5000 is highly cost effective way to go. |
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#25
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
"Andy Hall" aka Matt wrote in message ... There is a similar one for CH control where the sensing is between thermostat contact, a PWM signal from a Siemens or other controller or 0-10 or 0-3v analogue control. A cheap controller sensing the room temperature with 0-10v ouput will modulate the burner to suit the room temp. |
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#26
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
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#27
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
On Mon, 22 May 2006 13:50:31 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote
(in article ews.net): Buy a Danfoss BEM 5000, that will do they job for you. I saw one on ebay that went for £22 brand new plus £5 postage. ~£200 worth of compensator for buttons. Most don't understand them and can't see what they can get from them, thinking a modulating boiler is the answer. Modulating on a setpoint boiler temp is not the same load compensation compensation. This type of thing is a very poor option in comparison with a proper weather compensation on the boiler controller whereby it knows what the temperature is. It might be worth £22, but certainly not £200. Control of the boiler is on/off which is the weak part of the whole thing. While it is able to take outside temperature into account and be reasonable if one already has a simple switched boiler, it has to resort to timed anticycle to prevent reduction in efficiency as a result of on/off firing. The better option is undoubtedly an integrated weather compensator coupled with room temperature sensing and boiler and pump output control. |
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#28
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
On Tue, 23 May 2006 00:27:58 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote
(in article ews.net): "Andy Hall" aka Matt wrote in message ... On Mon, 22 May 2006 13:50:31 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote (in article ews.net): Buy a Danfoss BEM 5000, that will do they job for you. I saw one on ebay that went for £22 brand new plus £5 postage. £200 worth of compensator for buttons. Most don't understand them and can't see what they can get from them, thinking a modulating boiler is the answer. Modulating on a setpoint boiler temp is not the same as load compensation. This type of thing is a very poor option in comparison with a proper weather compensation on the boiler controller whereby it knows what the temperature is. Matt, it knows what the temperature is as it senses the return temperature of the heating. In the context of this I am obviously referring to the outside temperature and not the boiler return temperature. It might be worth £22, but certainly not £200. Matt, you must have brain damage. I thought that that was more in your area of life. Ever thought about why it was only being sold for £22? Doesn't work well for example? Can't sell them? Control of the boiler is on/off which is the weak part of the whole thing. While it is able to take outside temperature into account and be reasonable if one already has a simple switched boiler, it has to resort to timed anticycle to prevent reduction in efficiency as a result of on/off firing. The boiler will still modulate. If the flow and return temperature close up the burner modulates. It will do to an extent, but this can be based only on water temperatures on the boiler because that is the only sensing of temperature available to it. Other than that, all that it is getting is an on off signal. This will mean that on each operating cycle it will begin by running hotter than needed and will then modulate down. If the boiler controller has outside and room temperature information by direct measurement, then it only ever needs to cycle off when the room temperature exceeds the set point. Other than that, it can run continuously at (if need be) very low output. As the compensator knows roughly what the return temp should be in relation to the outside temp and the return temp is stable anyhow, cycling will be minimal. The boiler has anticycle control too. This can never be as good as a single controller having all of the sensing inputs giving measured values as opposed to on/off control and doing complete analogue control of burner and pump as well. Viessmann do it this way as well. http://www.viessmann.co.uk/articles/...-explained.php The better option is undoubtedly an integrated weather compensator coupled with room temperature sensing and boiler and pump output control. But these cost a hell of a lot, and having one with DHW priority too (running up the boioer temp to max) is not that common. The question was about a specific make and model, and that one does have this capability. There are others such as the Viessmann with the same functionality. |
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#29
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
Thanks Andy, I slightly misunderstood the wiring side of things. DPS
confirmed that the cylinder stat used is a Danfoss ITC 100 and that it does operate on a low voltage which can be fed into the low voltage rail of the boiler (I also checked the specs on Danfoss' website). Interestingly I considered opting for 2 stats to avoid unecessary cycling but the techie chap at DPS suggested that on a priority system you would be better off having the boiler fire up asap to bring the store back up to temperature and therefore 1 stat would be better suited? As regards the RE2132 controller I wonder if you could give me your view on it's necessity as re-reading your previous posts suggested that the outside weather compensator and TRV's on the rads would do a satisfactory controlling job of the heating side of things? SWMBO likes the ability to override/amend temperatures so the boiler in the loft doesn't lend itself well to frequent adjustments so some form of remote controlling is desired, however, potentially the RE2132 is a little over the top for my application and a more mainstream solution (Honeywell CM67 is favoured by Eco Hometec) would be better suited? Cost is a consideration but not a major factor in the overall cost of the the whole system if the functionality of boiler is better suited to the RE2132? Thanks Robin |
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#30
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
Thanks Andy, I slightly misunderstood the wiring side of things. DPS
confirmed that the cylinder stat used is a Danfoss ITC 100 and that it does operate on a low voltage which can be fed into the low voltage rail of the boiler (I also checked the specs on Danfoss' website). My similar Pandora has volt free contacts. Interestingly I considered opting for 2 stats to avoid unecessary cycling but the techie chap at DPS suggested that on a priority system you would be better off having the boiler fire up asap to bring the store back up to temperature and therefore 1 stat would be better suited? Personally, I would ignore their advice and install two thermostats to provide better hysteresis. Mine cycles a bit too frequently. Christian. |
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#31
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
This was my thinking also, however, if you do go down the 2 stat route
they have suggested that the wiring would need rejigging to make sure that the output will produce volt free contacts. This is something they can do so shouldn't be a problem it was more his assertion that a 1 stat solution was the best option. Robin |
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#32
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
"Andy Hall" wrote in message ... On Tue, 23 May 2006 00:27:58 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote (in article ews.net): "Andy Hall" aka Matt wrote in message ... On Mon, 22 May 2006 13:50:31 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote (in article ews.net): Buy a Danfoss BEM 5000, that will do they job for you. I saw one on ebay that went for £22 brand new plus £5 postage. £200 worth of compensator for buttons. Most don't understand them and can't see what they can get from them, thinking a modulating boiler is the answer. Modulating on a setpoint boiler temp is not the same as load compensation. This type of thing is a very poor option in comparison with a proper weather compensation on the boiler controller whereby it knows what the temperature is. Matt, it knows what the temperature is as it senses the return temperature of the heating. In the context of this I am obviously referring to the outside temperature and not the boiler return temperature. It might be worth £22, but certainly not £200. Matt, you must have brain damage. I thought that that was more in your area of life. Ever thought about why it was only being sold for £22? Doesn't work well for example? Can't sell them? Hot? Control of the boiler is on/off which is the weak part of the whole thing. While it is able to take outside temperature into account and be reasonable if one already has a simple switched boiler, it has to resort to timed anticycle to prevent reduction in efficiency as a result of on/off firing. The boiler will still modulate. If the flow and return temperature close up the burner modulates. It will do to an extent, but this can be based only on water temperatures on the boiler because that is the only sensing of temperature available to it. Other than that, all that it is getting is an on off signal. This will mean that on each operating cycle it will begin by running hotter than needed and will then modulate down. If the boiler controller has outside and room temperature information by direct measurement, then it only ever needs to cycle off when the room temperature exceeds the set point. Other than that, it can run continuously at (if need be) very low output. As the compensator knows roughly what the return temp should be in relation to the outside temp and the return temp is stable anyhow, cycling will be minimal. The boiler has anticycle control too. This can never be as good as a single controller having all of the sensing inputs giving measured values as opposed to on/off control and doing complete analogue control of burner and pump as well. Viessmann do it this way as well. http://www.viessmann.co.uk/articles/...-explained.php No one has said the on-off is superior at all. But a very near thing can be obtained much.much cheaper The better option is undoubtedly an integrated weather compensator coupled with room temperature sensing and boiler and pump output control. But these cost a hell of a lot, and having one with DHW priority too (running up the boioer temp to max) is not that common. The question was about a specific make and model, and that one does have this capability. There are others such as the Viessmann with the same functionality. The best for Robin is a "direct" DPS CX heat bank that integrates the DHW and CH. The CH water section can be controlled by a Danfoss weather compensator. Store the CH water at the right temp rather than store the water hot and drop the temperature. Then the BEM 5000 controls the boiler directly on CH. This "eliminates" boiler cycling as the mass of water stored acts as an anti-cyle buffer. It also ensures maximum efficiency of condesning boiler operation. A simple cheap Glow Worm HXi condensing boiler can be used. A direct probe sensor for the BEM 500 may have to be bought as an extra to sense the store CH water. Worth for the gains it gives. The CH circuit is taken off the store and using a Grunfoss Alpha pump and TRVs on all rads no problem at all. That is what I would do. It gives a superior solution all around and more cost effective in installation. |
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#33
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
"Andy Hall" aka Matt wrote in message ... On Tue, 23 May 2006 13:23:47 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote (in article ews.net): "Andy Hall" akak Matt wrote in message ... On Tue, 23 May 2006 00:27:58 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote (in article ews.net): "Andy Hall" aka Matt wrote in message ... On Mon, 22 May 2006 13:50:31 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote (in article ews.net): Buy a Danfoss BEM 5000, that will do they job for you. I saw one on ebay that went for £22 brand new plus £5 postage. £200 worth of compensator for buttons. Most don't understand them and can't see what they can get from them, thinking a modulating boiler is the answer. Modulating on a setpoint boiler temp is not the same as load compensation. This type of thing is a very poor option in comparison with a proper weather compensation on the boiler controller whereby it knows what the temperature is. Matt, it knows what the temperature is as it senses the return temperature of the heating. In the context of this I am obviously referring to the outside temperature and not the boiler return temperature. It might be worth £22, but certainly not £200. Matt, you must have brain damage. I thought that that was more in your area of life. Ever thought about why it was only being sold for £22? Doesn't work well for example? Can't sell them? Hot? That could be another reason, although I can't see Arthur Daley finding a ready market. Control of the boiler is on/off which is the weak part of the whole thing. While it is able to take outside temperature into account and be reasonable if one already has a simple switched boiler, it has to resort to timed anticycle to prevent reduction in efficiency as a result of on/off firing. The boiler will still modulate. If the flow and return temperature close up the burner modulates. It will do to an extent, but this can be based only on water temperatures on the boiler because that is the only sensing of temperature available to it. Other than that, all that it is getting is an on off signal. This will mean that on each operating cycle it will begin by running hotter than needed and will then modulate down. If the boiler controller has outside and room temperature information by direct measurement, then it only ever needs to cycle off when the room temperature exceeds the set point. Other than that, it can run continuously at (if need be) very low output. As the compensator knows roughly what the return temp should be in relation to the outside temp and the return temp is stable anyhow, cycling will be minimal. The boiler has anticycle control too. This can never be as good as a single controller having all of the sensing inputs giving measured values as opposed to on/off control and doing complete analogue control of burner and pump as well. Viessmann do it this way as well. http://www.viessmann.co.uk/articles/...-explained.php No one has said the on-off is superior at all. But a very near thing can be obtained much.much cheaper Without going into the exact detail, it is not possible to say whether it is near or not. The better option is undoubtedly an integrated weather compensator coupled with room temperature sensing and boiler and pump output control. But these cost a hell of a lot, and having one with DHW priority too (running up the boioer temp to max) is not that common. The question was about a specific make and model, and that one does have this capability. There are others such as the Viessmann with the same functionality. The best for Robin is a "direct" DPS CX heat bank that integrates the DHW and CH. The CH water section can be controlled by a Danfoss weather compensator. Store the CH water at the right temp rather than store the water hot and drop the temperature. Then the BEM 5000 controls the boiler directly on CH. This "eliminates" boiler cycling as the mass of water stored acts as an anti-cyle buffer. It also ensures maximum efficiency of condesning boiler operation. A simple cheap Glow Worm HXi condensing boiler can be used. A direct probe sensor for the BEM 500 may have to be bought as an extra to sense the store CH water. Worth for the gains it gives. This is waffle You clearly do not understand. The CH circuit is taken off the store and using a Grunfoss Alpha pump and TRVs on all rads no problem at all. That is what I would do. It gives a superior solution all around and more cost effective in installation. I am sure that Robin can make his own decisions on what he would like to do without it being organised for him It's best a professional organises him rather than an amateur. |
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#34
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
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#35
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
On Tue, 23 May 2006 13:23:47 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote
(in article ews.net): "Andy Hall" wrote in message ... On Tue, 23 May 2006 00:27:58 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote (in article ews.net): "Andy Hall" aka Matt wrote in message ... On Mon, 22 May 2006 13:50:31 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote (in article ews.net): Buy a Danfoss BEM 5000, that will do they job for you. I saw one on ebay that went for £22 brand new plus £5 postage. £200 worth of compensator for buttons. Most don't understand them and can't see what they can get from them, thinking a modulating boiler is the answer. Modulating on a setpoint boiler temp is not the same as load compensation. This type of thing is a very poor option in comparison with a proper weather compensation on the boiler controller whereby it knows what the temperature is. Matt, it knows what the temperature is as it senses the return temperature of the heating. In the context of this I am obviously referring to the outside temperature and not the boiler return temperature. It might be worth £22, but certainly not £200. Matt, you must have brain damage. I thought that that was more in your area of life. Ever thought about why it was only being sold for £22? Doesn't work well for example? Can't sell them? Hot? That could be another reason, although I can't see Arthur Daley finding a ready market. Control of the boiler is on/off which is the weak part of the whole thing. While it is able to take outside temperature into account and be reasonable if one already has a simple switched boiler, it has to resort to timed anticycle to prevent reduction in efficiency as a result of on/off firing. The boiler will still modulate. If the flow and return temperature close up the burner modulates. It will do to an extent, but this can be based only on water temperatures on the boiler because that is the only sensing of temperature available to it. Other than that, all that it is getting is an on off signal. This will mean that on each operating cycle it will begin by running hotter than needed and will then modulate down. If the boiler controller has outside and room temperature information by direct measurement, then it only ever needs to cycle off when the room temperature exceeds the set point. Other than that, it can run continuously at (if need be) very low output. As the compensator knows roughly what the return temp should be in relation to the outside temp and the return temp is stable anyhow, cycling will be minimal. The boiler has anticycle control too. This can never be as good as a single controller having all of the sensing inputs giving measured values as opposed to on/off control and doing complete analogue control of burner and pump as well. Viessmann do it this way as well. http://www.viessmann.co.uk/articles/...-explained.php No one has said the on-off is superior at all. But a very near thing can be obtained much.much cheaper Without going into the exact detail, it is not possible to say whether it is near or not. The better option is undoubtedly an integrated weather compensator coupled with room temperature sensing and boiler and pump output control. But these cost a hell of a lot, and having one with DHW priority too (running up the boioer temp to max) is not that common. The question was about a specific make and model, and that one does have this capability. There are others such as the Viessmann with the same functionality. The best for Robin is a "direct" DPS CX heat bank that integrates the DHW and CH. The CH water section can be controlled by a Danfoss weather compensator. Store the CH water at the right temp rather than store the water hot and drop the temperature. Then the BEM 5000 controls the boiler directly on CH. This "eliminates" boiler cycling as the mass of water stored acts as an anti-cyle buffer. It also ensures maximum efficiency of condesning boiler operation. A simple cheap Glow Worm HXi condensing boiler can be used. A direct probe sensor for the BEM 500 may have to be bought as an extra to sense the store CH water. Worth for the gains it gives. This is waffle The CH circuit is taken off the store and using a Grunfoss Alpha pump and TRVs on all rads no problem at all. That is what I would do. It gives a superior solution all around and more cost effective in installation. I am sure that Robin can make his own decisions on what he would like to do without it being organised for him |
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#36
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
On Wed, 24 May 2006 00:24:20 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote
(in article ews.net): The best for Robin is a "direct" DPS CX heat bank that integrates the DHW and CH. The CH water section can be controlled by a Danfoss weather compensator. Store the CH water at the right temp rather than store the water hot and drop the temperature. Then the BEM 5000 controls the boiler directly on CH. This "eliminates" boiler cycling as the mass of water stored acts as an anti-cyle buffer. It also ensures maximum efficiency of condesning boiler operation. A simple cheap Glow Worm HXi condensing boiler can be used. A direct probe sensor for the BEM 500 may have to be bought as an extra to sense the store CH water. Worth for the gains it gives. This is waffle You clearly do not understand. I know waffle when I read it. The CH circuit is taken off the store and using a Grunfoss Alpha pump and TRVs on all rads no problem at all. That is what I would do. It gives a superior solution all around and more cost effective in installation. I am sure that Robin can make his own decisions on what he would like to do without it being organised for him It's best a professional organises him rather than an amateur. He didn't say anything about going into your branch of Plumbcenter. Which one was it? Perhaps you could organise a nice discount and sell him a Magnawotsit as well... |
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#37
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
"Andy Hall" aka Matt wrote in message ... On Wed, 24 May 2006 00:24:20 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote (in article ews.net): The best for Robin is a "direct" DPS CX heat bank that integrates the DHW and CH. The CH water section can be controlled by a Danfoss weather compensator. Store the CH water at the right temp rather than store the water hot and drop the temperature. Then the BEM 5000 controls the boiler directly on CH. This "eliminates" boiler cycling as the mass of water stored acts as an anti-cyle buffer. It also ensures maximum efficiency of condesning boiler operation. A simple cheap Glow Worm HXi condensing boiler can be used. A direct probe sensor for the BEM 500 may have to be bought as an extra to sense the store CH water. Worth for the gains it gives. This is waffle You clearly do not understand. I know waffle when I read it. Matt, you don't. You just don't understand. The CH circuit is taken off the store and using a Grunfoss Alpha pump and TRVs on all rads no problem at all. That is what I would do. It gives a superior solution all around and more cost effective in installation. I am sure that Robin can make his own decisions on what he would like to do without it being organised for him It's best a professional organises him rather than an amateur. He didn't say anything about going into your branch of Plumbcenter. Matt, I don't shop at such a establishment. Which one was it? Perhaps you could organise a nice discount and sell him a Magnawotsit as well... Matt, I don't discounts for my services, as I am good and not cheap. I am also a big tipper to. |
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#38
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
Doctor Drivel wrote: Matt, I don't discounts for my services, as I am good and not cheap. I am also a big tipper to. Fly tipper? |
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#39
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
"Aidan" wrote in message oups.com... Doctor Drivel wrote: Matt, I don't do discounts for my services, as I am good and not cheap. I am also a big tipper to. Fly tipper? If a fly offers good service, he gets a good tip. |
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#40
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Indirect Pandora Heatbank and Man Micromat/Boiler compatability
"Andy Hall" wrote in message ... On Wed, 24 May 2006 19:46:57 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote (in article ews.net): It's best a professional organises him rather than an amateur. He didn't say anything about going into your branch of Plumbcenter. Matt, I don't shop at such a establishment. Don't they give staff discount? I should hope so. Which one was it? Perhaps you could organise a nice discount and sell him a Magnawotsit as well... Matt, I don't discounts for my services, as I am good and not cheap. I am also a big tipper to. You mean that you're a bin man as well? I don't know how you manage it all.... Matt, people tip the bin man. You have to know this sort of thing for Christmas. |
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