"Brian Sharrock" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Guy King" wrote in message
...
The message
from David Hansen contains these
words:

Some/many houses are badly designed. In these it probably makes
sense to heat the water electrically, especially if there is a
shortage of water.

This is the answer I got this morning from Candy UK when I asked why
they don't sell hot/cold fill machines.


Good morning due to the cold water in take the water level intake have
been
reduced washing machines only start to heat water at around 60degrees
and
above so hot water intake is not needed hence why it it more energy
efficient


Make of that what you will.

As most DHW is 45-55C this is tripe. What they are hiding is that they
want to put less in the thing.

Most DHW has cooled down to ambient temperature in the 'dead leg' from the
store to the washing machine inlet valve. What is the _measured_
temperature of the inlet water at time A - start of fill; B - end of fill?


Considering 50' of 1/2" nominal piping contains less than a gallon of water,
and US machines use many gallons, the cold, stagnant water has little
overall affect on the filled temperature.

daestrom

wrote in message
oups.com...
David Hansen wrote:
On 12 Mar 2006 23:26:24 GMT someone who may be "Bob Eager"
wrote this:-

What is your solution to the (then) requirement for a zero length pipe
between the hot water cylinder and the machine?

In a sensibly designed house the taps used most often will be near
the source of hot water and the hot water pipes insulated. The
washing machine will be too. As a result hot water will arrive at
the machine almost instantly.

Do you not think that other considerations should be considered far
more important than this in sensible design?


I certainly would. For example, a two story house with basement. The hot
water heater is in the basement (NG). Should we 1) carry laundry up/down
two flights of stairs everyday to reach the washing machine from the main
bath and bedrooms, or 2) install the laundry upstairs in a hall closet area
between bedrooms and bath.

In (1), we have less than ten feet of piping from heater to machine, but
constant 'stockpiling' of laundry waiting to be carried up/down. In (2) we
have ~30' of pipe and much more convenience. And since the machine is only
rarely set to use 'hot' versus 'warm' or 'cold', the savings of 20' of
piping is quite miniscule compared to the labor of hauling laundry up/down
two flights of stairs.

Some may consider putting the machine in the basement 'sensible', but they
*obviously* aren't the ones that do laundry in their home ;-)

daestrom

NT

On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 22:18:00 GMT someone who may be "daestrom"
wrote this:-

For example, a two story house with basement. The hot
water heater is in the basement (NG).

Why?




--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

David Hansen wrote:
On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 22:18:00 GMT someone who may be "daestrom"
wrote this:-


For example, a two story house with basement. The hot
water heater is in the basement (NG).


Why?

That is where the furnace is.

You would have to live in a 500 sq ft house to have less than 50' of
copper plumbing.

Point made though.

"daestrom" wrote in message
...
Considering 50' of 1/2" nominal piping contains less than a gallon
of water,
and US machines use many gallons, the cold, stagnant water has
little
overall affect on the filled temperature.

daestrom

Not in the Americas

"Guy King" wrote in message
...
It's getting increasingly hard to find a hot/cold fill washing
machine.
They all appear to be cold fill only these days.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 00:04:18 GMT someone who may be Cosmopolite
wrote this:-

For example, a two story house with basement. The hot
water heater is in the basement (NG).


Why?

That is where the furnace is.

Does it have to be there?


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

"Brian Sharrock" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Guy King" wrote in message
...
The message
from David Hansen contains these
words:

Some/many houses are badly designed. In these it probably makes
sense to heat the water electrically, especially if there is a
shortage of water.

This is the answer I got this morning from Candy UK when I asked why
they don't sell hot/cold fill machines.


Good morning due to the cold water in take the water level intake have
been
reduced washing machines only start to heat water at around 60degrees
and
above so hot water intake is not needed hence why it it more energy
efficient


Make of that what you will.

As most DHW is 45-55C this is tripe. What they are hiding is that they
want to put less in the thing.

Most DHW has cooled down to ambient temperature in the 'dead leg' from the
store to the washing machine inlet valve. What is the _measured_
temperature of the inlet water at time A - start of fill; B - end of fill?

Some people have secondary circulation pumps and dead legs that are not 100
foot long. In fact a secondary circulation pump can pay for itself in water
saved and less electricity used in hot and cold fill domestic appliances.
And voila, always instant hot water at the taps. No price can be put on
that.

"daestrom" wrote in message
...

"Brian Sharrock" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Guy King" wrote in message
...
The message
from David Hansen contains these
words:

Some/many houses are badly designed. In these it probably makes
sense to heat the water electrically, especially if there is a
shortage of water.

This is the answer I got this morning from Candy UK when I asked why
they don't sell hot/cold fill machines.


Good morning due to the cold water in take the water level intake have
been
reduced washing machines only start to heat water at around 60degrees
and
above so hot water intake is not needed hence why it it more energy
efficient


Make of that what you will.

As most DHW is 45-55C this is tripe. What they are hiding is that they
want to put less in the thing.

Most DHW has cooled down to ambient temperature in the 'dead leg' from
the store to the washing machine inlet valve. What is the _measured_
temperature of the inlet water at time A - start of fill; B - end of
fill?


Considering 50' of 1/2" nominal piping contains less than a gallon of
water, and US machines use many gallons, the cold, stagnant water has
little overall affect on the filled temperature.

European machines are far more energy and water efficient. They don't have a
large bath of water in them. Water content in the most highly efficient is
very low these days.

"daestrom" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
oups.com...
David Hansen wrote:
On 12 Mar 2006 23:26:24 GMT someone who may be "Bob Eager"
wrote this:-

What is your solution to the (then) requirement for a zero length pipe
between the hot water cylinder and the machine?

In a sensibly designed house the taps used most often will be near
the source of hot water and the hot water pipes insulated. The
washing machine will be too. As a result hot water will arrive at
the machine almost instantly.

Do you not think that other considerations should be considered far
more important than this in sensible design?

I certainly would. For example, a two story house with basement. The hot
water heater is in the basement (NG). Should we 1) carry laundry up/down
two flights of stairs everyday to reach the washing machine from the main
bath and bedrooms, or 2) install the laundry upstairs in a hall closet
area between bedrooms and bath.

The UK has the smallest, pokiest most expensive houses in the developed
world. Space upstairs to fit a "laundry room"? We only dream of such
things. A basement? That's Hollywood man! If we had basements we would
have them done out in pink.

"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 22:18:00 GMT someone who may be "daestrom"
wrote this:-

For example, a two story house with basement. The hot
water heater is in the basement (NG).

Why?

Away from the living areas. It makes sense. Make the basement a utility
area.

The message ews.net
from "Doctor Drivel" contains these words:

Some people have secondary circulation pumps and dead legs that are not 100
foot long.

URAnAlienAICM£5

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

On 13 Mar 2006 11:40:44 -0800 someone who may be
wrote this:-

Did I miss it? What is your figure for the annual saving of a typical
commercial DSHW system, and how do you arrive at that figure?

See this or another thread running at the moment.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 21:46:45 -0500, "Solar Flare"
wrote:

"daestrom" wrote in message
...
Considering 50' of 1/2" nominal piping contains less than a gallon
of water,
and US machines use many gallons, the cold, stagnant water has
little
overall affect on the filled temperature.

daestrom

You would have to live in a 500 sq ft house to have less than 50' of
copper plumbing.

And yet my home is 2000 sq.ft., and there's about 15' of pipe between
the washer and the water heater. You must have been thinking of 500
sq.ft. homes in your own neighborhood, eg 10 X 50', with the washer
near the rear bumper and the hot water tank near the hitch.

Wayne

Doctor Drivel wrote:

"daestrom" wrote in message
...

"Brian Sharrock" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Guy King" wrote in message
...
The message
from David Hansen contains these
words:

Some/many houses are badly designed. In these it probably makes
sense to heat the water electrically, especially if there is a
shortage of water.

This is the answer I got this morning from Candy UK when I asked why
they don't sell hot/cold fill machines.


Good morning due to the cold water in take the water level intake
have been
reduced washing machines only start to heat water at around
60degrees and
above so hot water intake is not needed hence why it it more energy
efficient


Make of that what you will.

As most DHW is 45-55C this is tripe. What they are hiding is that
they want to put less in the thing.

Most DHW has cooled down to ambient temperature in the 'dead leg'
from the store to the washing machine inlet valve. What is the
_measured_ temperature of the inlet water at time A - start of fill;
B - end of fill?


Considering 50' of 1/2" nominal piping contains less than a gallon of
water, and US machines use many gallons, the cold, stagnant water has
little overall affect on the filled temperature.

European machines are far more energy and water efficient. They don't
have a large bath of water in them. Water content in the most highly
efficient is very low these days.


Well, that's a gross exaggeration, as we have energy efficient machines
here in the USA (modeled after the European ones, no doubt) that are
very close in efficiency. I have a Sears front loader washer that takes
1/3rd the electric and water of my previous unit.


--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html

"Steve Spence" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"daestrom" wrote in message
...

"Brian Sharrock" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Guy King" wrote in message
...
The message
from David Hansen contains these
words:

Some/many houses are badly designed. In these it probably makes
sense to heat the water electrically, especially if there is a
shortage of water.

This is the answer I got this morning from Candy UK when I asked why
they don't sell hot/cold fill machines.


Good morning due to the cold water in take the water level intake
have been
reduced washing machines only start to heat water at around 60degrees
and
above so hot water intake is not needed hence why it it more energy
efficient


Make of that what you will.

As most DHW is 45-55C this is tripe. What they are hiding is that
they want to put less in the thing.

Most DHW has cooled down to ambient temperature in the 'dead leg' from
the store to the washing machine inlet valve. What is the _measured_
temperature of the inlet water at time A - start of fill; B - end of
fill?


Considering 50' of 1/2" nominal piping contains less than a gallon of
water, and US machines use many gallons, the cold, stagnant water has
little overall affect on the filled temperature.

European machines are far more energy and water efficient. They don't
have a large bath of water in them. Water content in the most highly
efficient is very low these days.


Well, that's a gross exaggeration, as we have energy efficient machines
here in the USA (modeled after the European ones, no doubt) that are very
close in efficiency. I have a Sears front loader washer that takes 1/3rd
the electric and water of my previous unit.

On "average" they are far more efficient here. But best of breed on both
side may be ~equiv. The likes of AEG make the most efficient.

Steve Spence wrote:
Doctor Drivel wrote:

European machines are far more energy and water efficient. They don't
have a large bath of water in them. Water content in the most highly
efficient is very low these days.


Well, that's a gross exaggeration, as we have energy efficient machines
here in the USA (modeled after the European ones, no doubt) that are
very close in efficiency. I have a Sears front loader washer that takes
1/3rd the electric and water of my previous unit.

Do you mean 1/3 compared to a traditional top loader? Cos ours dont use
anywhere near that much.

NT

wrote:
Steve Spence wrote:
Doctor Drivel wrote:

European machines are far more energy and water efficient. They don't
have a large bath of water in them. Water content in the most highly
efficient is very low these days.

Well, that's a gross exaggeration, as we have energy efficient machines
here in the USA (modeled after the European ones, no doubt) that are
very close in efficiency. I have a Sears front loader washer that takes
1/3rd the electric and water of my previous unit.

Do you mean 1/3 compared to a traditional top loader? Cos ours dont use
anywhere near that much.

NT


Yes, 1/3 of the traditional top loader of equivalent size.


--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html

"Solar Flare" wrote in message
.. .
You would have to live in a 500 sq ft house to have less than 50' of
copper plumbing.


Not between the laundry and the hw heater. Or do you run your piping in a
huge loop all the way around the house to every fixture in turn? LOL [sic].

Even with the laundry on the second floor and HW heater in the basement, it
would have to be a pretty large house to need 50' of piping between them.

daestrom

David Hansen wrote:
On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 00:04:18 GMT someone who may be Cosmopolite
wrote this:-


For example, a two story house with basement. The hot
water heater is in the basement (NG).


Why?

That is where the furnace is.


Does it have to be there?

No, but updraft furnaces are more efficient than counterflow, which I
have, because I only have a crawl space. ( 100 year old house )

LOL. You forget about the spur runs to other water appliances that are
usually split off and contribute to the thermal drain. The other item
is the plumbing always goes in 90 degree angles if done by a
professional.

Cripes! My laundry tub and HW heater are more than 50' (well, maybe
40') apart the way the crow flies, let alone all the take offs in
between. I can fill my machine quarter full of cold before the hot
hits the tub. My ensuite bathroom is even worse as it is over top the
laundry room and has another 20' of pipe to go.


"daestrom" wrote in message
...

"Solar Flare" wrote in message
.. .
You would have to live in a 500 sq ft house to have less than 50'
of
copper plumbing.


Not between the laundry and the hw heater. Or do you run your
piping in a
huge loop all the way around the house to every fixture in turn? LOL
[sic].

Even with the laundry on the second floor and HW heater in the
basement, it
would have to be a pretty large house to need 50' of piping between
them.

daestrom

Guy King wrote:
The message .com
from contains these words:


If it is so good, I want some and will meddle with the washing machine to
get it to work cold only. Or just set it to low temperature wash.


Disconnecting the heater makes it sit there forever waiting for the
temp to be reached. Instead wire over one of the temp stats.


I don't like washing machines that have fixed temperatures for given
wash programmes - I prefer to be able to choose my own. If I want to run
a long wash at 30°C then that's what I want to do - not have the machine
force me to do it at 80°C instead. Some machines have a seperate
thermostat dial - which makes a lot of sense.

My " Wife's " machine is an old top loader with 4 water levels, 5
wash/rinse temp.settings and 5 time programs. She likes it. ( Canada )

On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 19:13:28 -0500, "Solar Flare"
wrote:

"daestrom" wrote in message
.. .

"Solar Flare" wrote in message
.. .
You would have to live in a 500 sq ft house to have less than 50'
of
copper plumbing.


Not between the laundry and the hw heater. Or do you run your
piping in a
huge loop all the way around the house to every fixture in turn? LOL
[sic].

Even with the laundry on the second floor and HW heater in the
basement, it
would have to be a pretty large house to need 50' of piping between
them.

daestrom


Cripes! My laundry tub and HW heater are more than 50' (well, maybe
40') apart the way the crow flies, let alone all the take offs in
between. I can fill my machine quarter full of cold before the hot
hits the tub.

Hmm, let's call it 60 feet of 1/2" copper pipe. Which holds .6
Imperial gallon of water, making your washer 2.4 gallons per fill.
What model would that be Gymmy Bob?

Wayne

Steve Spence wrote:
wrote:
Steve Spence wrote:
Doctor Drivel wrote:

European machines are far more energy and water efficient. They don't
have a large bath of water in them. Water content in the most highly
efficient is very low these days.

Well, that's a gross exaggeration, as we have energy efficient machines
here in the USA (modeled after the European ones, no doubt) that are
very close in efficiency. I have a Sears front loader washer that takes
1/3rd the electric and water of my previous unit.

Do you mean 1/3 compared to a traditional top loader? Cos ours dont use
anywhere near that much.

NT


Yes, 1/3 of the traditional top loader of equivalent size.

Dont think ours have used that much since the 1960s, they've come a
long way.


NT

wrote:

Yes, 1/3 of the traditional top loader of equivalent size.

Dont think ours have used that much since the 1960s, they've come a
long way.


NT


Define "that much". These are both under 5 years old. The front loader
uses 1/3rd the water and electric that the top loader does.

--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html

Steve Spence wrote:
wrote:

Yes, 1/3 of the traditional top loader of equivalent size.

Dont think ours have used that much since the 1960s, they've come a
long way.

Define "that much".

what it says above! JC. Shall I requote for you?

1/3 of the traditional top loader of equivalent size.

These are both under 5 years old. The front loader
uses 1/3rd the water and electric that the top loader does.

why are you repeating yourself anyway? Whats that going to achieve?

"Solar Flare" wrote in message
.. .
LOL. You forget about the spur runs to other water appliances that are
usually split off and contribute to the thermal drain. The other item
is the plumbing always goes in 90 degree angles if done by a
professional.


Such splits don't have to be filled with hot water to run the washer. They
just present slightly more surface area for cooling. But then, if you
insulate the piping properly, this is a minimal affect. Net result is, you
just have a slightly larger mass of copper to warm up along the way.

Actually, in my plumbing there are a couple of places where two 45 degree
angles, with five feet between them made more sense than a 90 and 7' of
pipe. Admittedly this is rare, but that's why they make 45's. So
professionals can use them when it makes sense.

Cripes! My laundry tub and HW heater are more than 50' (well, maybe
40') apart the way the crow flies, let alone all the take offs in
between.

Again, your 'take offs in between' don't have to be purged of water. They
add very little to the calculation. Less than one extra foot or two thermal
mass to warm up..

You have an unusual house if it's 50' as the crow flies between laundry and
HW heater. My laundry's on the second floor and I've worked out the length
of piping as 27' along the pipe run.

I can fill my machine quarter full of cold before the hot
hits the tub. My ensuite bathroom is even worse as it is over top the
laundry room and has another 20' of pipe to go.


Well, then *your* house is exceptional. Maybe you should do something about
it??

daestrom

"wmbjk" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 19:13:28 -0500, "Solar Flare"
wrote:

"daestrom" wrote in message
. ..

"Solar Flare" wrote in message
.. .
You would have to live in a 500 sq ft house to have less than 50'
of
copper plumbing.


Not between the laundry and the hw heater. Or do you run your
piping in a
huge loop all the way around the house to every fixture in turn? LOL
[sic].

Even with the laundry on the second floor and HW heater in the
basement, it
would have to be a pretty large house to need 50' of piping between
them.

daestrom


Cripes! My laundry tub and HW heater are more than 50' (well, maybe
40') apart the way the crow flies, let alone all the take offs in
between. I can fill my machine quarter full of cold before the hot
hits the tub.

Hmm, let's call it 60 feet of 1/2" copper pipe. Which holds .6
Imperial gallon of water, making your washer 2.4 gallons per fill.
What model would that be Gymmy Bob?


Sigh... There you go using that durn 'math' again. Just keeps conflicting
with what people just 'know to be true' ;-)

daestrom

wrote:
Steve Spence wrote:
wrote:

Yes, 1/3 of the traditional top loader of equivalent size.
Dont think ours have used that much since the 1960s, they've come a
long way.

Define "that much".

what it says above! JC. Shall I requote for you?

1/3 of the traditional top loader of equivalent size.

These are both under 5 years old. The front loader
uses 1/3rd the water and electric that the top loader does.

why are you repeating yourself anyway? Whats that going to achieve?


because your response did not fit the thread. Trying to get you to
clarify so we can make sense of it.


--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html

On Thu, 09 Mar 2006 01:30:30 GMT, Mark wrote:
Calculate your own Tax-Free Return On Investment [ROI]:

$ _____ Estimated Savings
$ _____ Divided by Unit Cost
%_____ Equals ROI

No, that is not correct because you have spent the principle. What you
have calcuated is an annual return on invested capital, annual ROIC.

Return on Investment is calculated using Total Return (TR) and Unit Cost (UC):

ROI = (TR - UC) / UC

For example, if you put $1000 (UC) into a certificate returning 6% (ROI)
simple interest, after one year you will get back $1060 (TR). So:
( $1060 - $1000 ) / $1000 = 0.06
or 6% ROI.

Since on your solar system you spent the principle...
* unit cost (UC) is the price of the system, plus the 6% you do not get
* total return (TR) is the savings

Unless the TR (savings) is more than you could have received by
investing the money (guaranteed IBonds are paying more than 6% right
now), you will never have a positive return on investment.

In the best case, the system will save more than the lost investment
compounded every year. And the system will last long enough to return
the principle. And then you can start calculating positive ROI.

Or else just buy it to feel good... That's why I have some PV.

sdb
--
Wanted: Omnibook 800 & accessories, cheap, working or not
sdbuse1 on mailhost bigfoot.com