I have some watches for you to buy too. You are a salesman's dream.
Try reading the boxes of detergent even. The brands I have at the
current hide this information completely.

Cold water is always defined as over 20C for detergents. This is
"warm" water from your taps...not cold.

NOTE: Temperatures below 65 degrees F. will not activate laundry
additives and may cause lint, residue, poor cleaning, etc. In
addition, detergent manufacturers and care labels define cold water as
80-85 degrees F.
http://www.midamericaparts.com/faqwashans3.htm

"Cold water below 65 degrees F. is not recommended for washing"
http://www.midamericaparts.com/faqwashans6.htm

"As long as the water temperature does not fall below 70 degrees F (21
degrees C), you will still be getting your clothes clean."
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:...a&ct=clnk&cd=6

If thermal energy (water temperature) is reduced, chemical energy
(laundry product) should be increased by adding more detergent.
http://www.cleaning101.com/laundry/f...ct_sheet8.html

"Launder using hottest water safe for fabric"
http://www.fivestarlaundry.org/tips.php

Tide manufacturer defines "cold water" as 65F-85F. This is not cold
water from your taps.
http://www.tide.com/articles/read.jhtml?articleId=3660

....and on and on.

The laundry detergent scams do not really agree with the chemical
scientists. The detergent companies had to redefined "cold water" to
make their claims. Advertising at work.

Have a good one.


"Steve Spence" wrote in message
...
Solar Flare wrote:
You can usually pick them out with their greyed out white clothes.

"Steve Spence" wrote in message
...
Many Americans don't wash clothes with hot water.




hmm... really? nope, not quite right. It's been a long time since
detergent required hot water. Saves a lot of energy as well.


--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html

"Guy King" wrote in message
...
The message
from Andy Hall contains these words:

I don't even have a clue how to start my washing machine, that's what a
wife's for


Absolutely. Washing, Ironing, Food, Etc.

That's why brides wear white - it's to signify their new status as a
domestic appliance.

I'm obviously behind the times. I haven't seen a bride in white for a long
time (church at the bottom of the street) and I thought that 'white goods'
were now passe too, having given way to darker colours which will go out of
favour sooner.

Mary

--

"Steve Spence" wrote in message
...

"Steve Spence" wrote in message
...
Many Americans don't wash clothes with hot water.

hmm... really? nope, not quite right. It's been a long time since
detergent required hot water. Saves a lot of energy as well.

In the UK we don't have cold water detergent. Well not that I know of. If
it is so good and equal to hot water detergent, then the energy crisis is
partly solved. Just disconnect all the washing machine heaters. Washing
machines a few years back were the appliances that were near causing the
California grid collapse. They put out on TV for people not to use them as
much and have only full loads.

If it is so good, I want some and will meddle with the washing machine to
get it to work cold only. Or just set it to low temperature wash.

Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Steve Spence" wrote in message
...

"Steve Spence" wrote in message
...
Many Americans don't wash clothes with hot water.

hmm... really? nope, not quite right. It's been a long time since
detergent required hot water. Saves a lot of energy as well.

In the UK we don't have cold water detergent. Well not that I know of.
If it is so good and equal to hot water detergent, then the energy
crisis is partly solved. Just disconnect all the washing machine
heaters. Washing machines a few years back were the appliances that were
near causing the California grid collapse. They put out on TV for
people not to use them as much and have only full loads.

If it is so good, I want some and will meddle with the washing machine
to get it to work cold only. Or just set it to low temperature wash.


I'm told my other UK folks that you do have cold water detergent. I
don't know personally, I've never been to the UK. Our washing machine
(Sears front loader) has a (wash/rinse) cold/cold, warm/cold, hot/hot
settings. It doesn't have a onboard heater. We always use the cold/cold
unless I'm washing my greasy clothes, and the whites are never gray, and
the colors stay bright.



--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html

"Owain" wrote in message
...
Guy King wrote:
Absolutely. Washing, Ironing, Food, Etc.
That's why brides wear white - it's to signify their new status as a
domestic appliance.

And the American models are always wider...

Here endeth the lesson on How to Start WWIII ...

:-)

Mary

Owain

"Steve Spence" wrote in message
...


I'm told my other UK folks that you do have cold water detergent.

We do.

Biological detergents are universally available. Many people will be using
them without understanding that they can be used with cold or tepid water.
'Ozone' detergents are most often used in commercial laundries.

In the machine I use the former; for hand washing (pure wool) in warm water
I use soap flakes.

I don't have grey whites or dull colours.

Mary

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"daestrom" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
oups.com...
Doctor Drivel wrote:
wrote in message

simpler to have the vent hole above the top of the tank. Add a sleeve
to prevent splash possibility.

It has to be "in" the tank. The pump will squirt water everywhere.

What I'm suggesting is a 1/4" hole in the panel output pipe just above
the top of tank, say 1/2" above. There will be close to no pressure
there, and no possibility of any squirting.


Okay, and if there is no check-valve in the pump or its suction, I can
see that working. Maybe even a baffle just to be sure of little splash.
Shut-off head of the pump will still have to be high enough to initially
fill the collector, but once the return has flooded, less pressure should
be needed to maintain flow.

Now, just need a large enough tank to accomodate the drain-water, and
you're all set.

Although it would take three pipes. A foolproof way is have a tee inside
the tank on the hot pipe from the panels. From this tee take a small bore
pipe up to the same height as the top of the panel and back to the tank.
Vented and no pump over at all. If there is a problem it goes back to the
tank. Pipe is cheap.

Why go all the way up to the panel height? If you make sure the hole is
always above the water level in the tank, and put a small enough
orifice/restriction in the hole, the flow of water out the hole will be
minimal. With the pump off, the difference between where the hole is and
the water level in the tank will start the reverse syphon process. As water
syphons backwards through the collector and pump, the return line will be
more and more air (less and less water) so the dP for the syphon grows and
grows. Soon the whole pipe and collector will be drained.

Things that can go wrong: 1) If there are any low spots that don't slope
back to the tank, they may hold water that can then freeze. 2) Some fool
puts a check valve in the line. 3) If the orifice/restriction/hole gets
clogged with scale/crud/biofouling, then the system may not drain. The
first two are avoided by careful installation. The last, increase the
height above the water line for the hole to provide a stronger dP for
clearing the crud. Heck, maybe rig a circuit that if the pump is running
but no water out the hole after 60 seconds, sound an alarm. Scale could be
prevented with a simple mechanical reamer every 3 months or so.

But running a pipe all the way up to panel and pack down creates a
'loop-seal' that will *prevent* drain down, exactly the wrong thing. Now
you have to 'upside-down U' sections of piping to break the syphon seal on
both to prevent freezing.

daestrom

wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

wrote in message

... Once the panel circuit fills with water, the pump is only pumping
against the running friction, and not the head.

It is pumping against the head (pressure) always...

Wrong.

Not entirely. To prevent forming steam in the top most portion, the
pressure there must be kept above the saturation pressure for the
temperature. So if the collector outlet temperature is 180F, the pressure
must be kept above 7.57 psia. With the return line open to atmosphere (14.7
psia), then the vertical fall from the collector to tank is limited to
somewhere in the range of 16 ft.

If you arrange so the major friction loss is on the return line, say a
throttle valve right before the tank return, then the pressure drop across
it will add to the pressure 'seen' at the panel (i.e. the backpressure
raises the pressure in the panel). This would support more vertical height
panels.

The *worst* thing would be if the throttle valve/restriction were on the
riser side.

daestrom

"daestrom" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"daestrom" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
oups.com...
Doctor Drivel wrote:
wrote in message

simpler to have the vent hole above the top of the tank. Add a
sleeve
to prevent splash possibility.

It has to be "in" the tank. The pump will squirt water everywhere.

What I'm suggesting is a 1/4" hole in the panel output pipe just above
the top of tank, say 1/2" above. There will be close to no pressure
there, and no possibility of any squirting.


Okay, and if there is no check-valve in the pump or its suction, I can
see that working. Maybe even a baffle just to be sure of little splash.
Shut-off head of the pump will still have to be high enough to initially
fill the collector, but once the return has flooded, less pressure
should be needed to maintain flow.

Now, just need a large enough tank to accomodate the drain-water, and
you're all set.

Although it would take three pipes. A foolproof way is have a tee inside
the tank on the hot pipe from the panels. From this tee take a small bore
pipe up to the same height as the top of the panel and back to the tank.
Vented and no pump over at all. If there is a problem it goes back to
the tank. Pipe is cheap.

Why go all the way up to the panel height?

Because it is "foolproof" and will "always" work, no matter what pump, or
extra panels you insert later. Just putting the bombproof method forwards,
nothing else.

But running a pipe all the way up to panel and pack down creates a
'loop-seal' that will *prevent* drain down, exactly the wrong thing.

As the end of the pipe is open to atmosphere in the tank at "all times", it
will not cause a vacuum and lock in the water. When the pump is on, it will
pump some way up the pipe, how much depends on pump friction, etc. Once the
pump stops, the water in the pipe will drop back and as it is a open vented
pipe, the water will just fall back.

The last thing you want is water dropping from a small hole inthe wtaer in
the tank, as this aerates the water. Not what you want.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Steve Spence" wrote in message
...

"Steve Spence" wrote in message
...
Many Americans don't wash clothes with hot water.

hmm... really? nope, not quite right. It's been a long time since
detergent required hot water. Saves a lot of energy as well.

In the UK we don't have cold water detergent. Well not that I know of. If
it is so good and equal to hot water detergent, then the energy crisis is
partly solved. Just disconnect all the washing machine heaters. Washing
machines a few years back were the appliances that were near causing the
California grid collapse. They put out on TV for people not to use them
as much and have only full loads.


Now that's 'Drivel'. Washing machines in the US don't have 'heaters' built
into them. (well, maybe *some* brand out there does, but by and large the
most common units do not). During the CA energy crisis (I would hardly call
it a 'collapse' since the only time people lost power was when it was
deliberately *turned off*), the messages went out for people to do a *lot*
of things differently to conserve energy. Not just washing machines. And
to shift there energy usage to off-peak hours. But not just washing
clothes. Running A/C, taking showers, cooking dinner, any thing to reduce
peak demand.

daestrom

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Doctor Drivel"
saying something like:

In yea olden dayes the dishwasher
was a large tray of water with powder like sand. It sand blasted the dishes
clean, hence why you could not put patterned plates in the things.

That was a concrete mixer. Understandable mistake, I suppose.
--

Dave

in 509261 20060311 173951 "EXT" etonks@sunstormADD-DOT-COM wrote:
I have been top posting all my computerized life. I started out with PROFS
which was an IBM mainframe email system, predating the internet. There,
replies were required to be top posted, and so the habit was formed and
works for me. It seems a waste to have to search the bottom of the previous
message to read the reply.

FWIW, I agree with you too.

Mary Fisher (in ) said:

| A son (RAF) is being posted to Afghanistan ... and why not? Why
| should he be safe when other wives' husbands, children's fathers
| and parents' sons aren't.

You're invited to pass along my thanks and fervent wishes for his safe
return. In the midst of all of the bickering and banter we sometimes
forget to express appreciation for the partnership of friends willing
to share peril.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

daestrom (in ) said:

| Now that's 'Drivel'. Washing machines in the US don't have
| 'heaters' built into them. (well, maybe *some* brand out there
| does, but by and large the most common units do not).

At least some of the big name manufacturers' top brands do indeed
incorporate heating elements.

The Maytag Neptune series is the only one of these with which I've had
first-hand design experience. It should be noted, however, that the
heater is used under computer control in such a way as to reduce the
overall water/energy budget of the machines' wash cycles.

I was also told that they'd experimented with incorporation of an
ozone generator into some test machines with the aim of reducing
detergent and bleach use; but that the idea was dropped because the
ozone unacceptably shortened the life of some common synthetic
fabrics.

I had an opportunity to examine a Japanese machine that used a flood
of tiny air bubbles to completely replace detergent - and I understand
that the technology is considered "promising".

The primary factors involved are 'wetness' and the mechanical action
of flexing fabric/causing water to move between the fibers. Detergent
acts to make water "wetter". Warming the water improves its ability to
disolve some types of soil. If the water were cooler, the machine
would need to run longer to produce the same level of cleaning. The
real deal is to make the machine smart enough to figure out where the
optimums are each individual load - because the parameters change
dramatically from load to load.

They've been working on it; and the development has been (and will
continue to be) an iterative process.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
...
daestrom (in ) said:

| Now that's 'Drivel'. Washing machines in the US don't have
| 'heaters' built into them. (well, maybe *some* brand out there
| does, but by and large the most common units do not).

At least some of the big name manufacturers' top brands do indeed
incorporate heating elements.

If your water is heated by electric, it is the same thing. From what I know
all UK machines have an internal electric heater, to heater or raise the
temperature in the water, which could have been heated by gas in the main
water system.

On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 23:22:18 UTC, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

At least some of the big name manufacturers' top brands do indeed
incorporate heating elements.

If your water is heated by electric, it is the same thing. From what I know
all UK machines have an internal electric heater, to heater or raise the
temperature in the water, which could have been heated by gas in the main
water system.

What is your solution to the (then) requirement for a zero length pipe
between the hot water cylinder and the machine? Or should the machine
pump water out until it runs hot?

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
Avenue Supplies, http://avenuesupplies.co.uk

Doctor Drivel (in
ws.net) said:

| "Morris Dovey" wrote in message
| ...
|| daestrom (in ) said:
||
||| Now that's 'Drivel'. Washing machines in the US don't have
||| 'heaters' built into them. (well, maybe *some* brand out there
||| does, but by and large the most common units do not).
||
|| At least some of the big name manufacturers' top brands do indeed
|| incorporate heating elements.
|
| If your water is heated by electric, it is the same thing. From
| what I know all UK machines have an internal electric heater, to
| heater or raise the temperature in the water, which could have been
| heated by gas in the main water system.

Well, it's the same to the extent that the water temperature is
raised. :-)

If the water in the pipe between the DHW is cold, then it turns out to
be uneconomical to soak the load with cold water, run cold water into
the drain, and then attempt to achieve a minimum wash temperature by
adding enough hot water to warm the cold water in the fabric.

Some areas of the US have a serious need to minimize water use and one
of the major design goals is to reduce the demand. If you have a
chance, check out the amount of water used in the top-loading Maytag
Neptune - you'll be amazed.

In that machine there is a tiny sump between the tub and the drain;
and the electrical heating (of only a tiny amount of water) is done
there. The amount of water actually heated in the washer is unlikely
to be anywhere near the amount of DHW drawn from the tank and left to
cool in the pipe - or the amount of cold water wasted while the DHW
traveled from the tank to the machine.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

AJH wrote:
On 11 Mar 2006 08:46:25 -0800, wrote:

You wont get 75% efficiency for hot water, but can for hot air.

It looked like this was possible from the SAP pdf, what makes you think it
will be worse on water and better on air?

Air target temp is low, the output air need only be mildly warm, low
temp panel operation equals good efficiency.

OK again, in fact the efficiency of either given the same delta T is
about the same,

if you mean T between panel output and ambient, yes, if you mean
between panel input and output, no.


With hot water the target
temp is close to the stagnation temp of the panel, so once the water is
halfway hot the panel efficiency is way down.

Even this is somewhat dependant on what algorithm you choose to make
use of the heated water,

I dont honestly see how, its just the physics of solar panels. With
T_out = ambient, efficiency is at its maximum, somewhere in the region
of 90%. When T_out = T_stagnation, efficiency = 0%, and you can draw a
straight line between those 2 points.


in my case I will almost certainly feature a
thermal store, because this fits in with wood burning, it certainly
adds a lot of cost but would enable harvesting of sunshine at a low
temperature.

Curious how you plan to use the same panels for both water and air

It's still a pipe dream atm, my heating is largely provided by wood
that just costs me a bit of effort to collect, so investment in solar
is not a good one for me.

If I were faced with re roofing (1862 built property seems to have
been re roofed once after fire damage) then although it is SW facing a
warm roof with triplewall polycarbonate weather surface looks
feasible.

To implement this my thoughts are that the solar DHW could be supplied
by a small portion of the roof

I think that would be the simplest answer.


and aim for enough collector area to
fill a thermal store and supply all summer and some spring and autumn
needs.

You realise you'll need 2 types of collector, flat plates will get your
water warm but not fully hot. To heat the top hottest section of the
store, vac tubes or concentrating collectors would be a lot more use
for that bit.


I wonder if I would get away with circulating the water through
just the front face of the two channels, water is pretty opaque to IR.

sure, but it wouldnt get hot


If so then the air doesn't need to share the same passages and can
have a manifold to the rear channel over the whole length of the roof
blowing down to the bottom and into the lower part of the building,
ideally into the floor slab.

Well I'd love to see you make a whole bunch of such manifolds that will
survive 20 years of use. I cant see how it could be possible. If you
fail, it'll be you on the roof fixing it. So if you do try I'd fit a
row of isolating valves.


I am
in two minds whether to nick it off the roof before it is sold as the
estate agent says it does not increase the value of the house.

AJH

Sounds logical, if you have legal title to them. If you dont use them
they sell for a good price. Look at navitron's prices, £220 for a 10
tube panel.


NT

Bob Eager wrote:
On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 17:39:51 UTC, "EXT" etonks@sunstormADD-DOT-COM top
posted:

I have been top posting all my computerized life. I started out with PROFS
which was an IBM mainframe email system, predating the internet. There,
replies were required to be top posted, and so the habit was formed and
works for me. It seems a waste to have to search the bottom of the previous
message to read the reply.

What you're telling us is that you're too old to learn new tricks..

I find it hard to see why anyone would get worked up about it. Both
methods work fine, as do some others, and in the real world there will
always be people that choose a and people that choose b. And of course
people that need to get over it. The day you tell everyone they must
post your way is the day you need to get real.*


NT


* generic you, not any one in particular.

David Hansen wrote:
On 10 Mar 2006 16:49:59 -0800 someone who may be
wrote this:-

You also need to wake up before posting.

Not only can you read my mind, but you can read it back in time.
That would be fascinating, if you were able to do it.

Do you want me to put it more directly? I certainly can.


Read the bit you snipped.

I did.

Then you were shall we say asleep.


However, the figure remains a low one, no matter where it
came from.

thank you Captain Obvious. Have you provided a figure to rebut mine
with? I take it you have nothing to contribute on that point.


NT

Do
wrote in message
oups.com...
Bob Eager wrote:
On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 17:39:51 UTC, "EXT"
etonks@sunstormADD-DOT-COM top
posted:
you

I have been top posting all my computerized life. I started out
with PROFS
which was an IBM mainframe email system, predating the internet.
There,
replies were required to be top posted, and so the habit was
formed and
works for me. It seems a waste to have to search the bottom of
the previous
message to read the reply.
really

What you're telling us is that you're too old to learn new
tricks..

I find it hard to see why anyone would get worked up about it. Both
methods work fine, as do some others, and in the real world there
will
think
always be people that choose a and people that choose b. And of
course
people that need to get over it. The day you tell everyone they must
post your way is the day you need to get real.*
that


NT
is


* generic you, not any one in particular.
true?

I

agree

Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Steve Spence" wrote in message
...

hmm... really? nope, not quite right. It's been a long time since
detergent required hot water. Saves a lot of energy as well.

In the UK we don't have cold water detergent. Well not that I know of. If
it is so good and equal to hot water detergent, then the energy crisis is
partly solved. Just disconnect all the washing machine heaters. Washing
machines a few years back were the appliances that were near causing the
California grid collapse. They put out on TV for people not to use them as
much and have only full loads.

If it is so good, I want some and will meddle with the washing machine to
get it to work cold only. Or just set it to low temperature wash.

Disconnecting the heater makes it sit there forever waiting for the
temp to be reached. Instead wire over one of the temp stats.

Cold washing works fine most of the time, but there are times here and
there where hot is necessary to get a good result.

I never understood why almost no commercial washers dont have a cold
wash setting, makes no sense.

Next comes the q of why use washing powder when you can use,..


NT

On 12 Mar 2006 19:09:06 -0800 someone who may be
wrote this:-

Not only can you read my mind, but you can read it back in time.
That would be fascinating, if you were able to do it.

Do you want me to put it more directly? I certainly can.

People can draw their own conclusions from that assertion.

thank you Captain Obvious.

Excellent, more personal abuse.

Have you provided a figure to rebut mine with?

Yes.

I take it you have nothing to contribute on that point.

Wrong.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

The message ews.net
from "Doctor Drivel" contains these words:

If your water is heated by electric, it is the same thing. From what
I know
all UK machines have an internal electric heater, to heater or raise the
temperature in the water, which could have been heated by gas in the main
water system.

It's getting increasingly hard to find a hot/cold fill washing machine.
They all appear to be cold fill only these days.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

The message .com
from contains these words:

If it is so good, I want some and will meddle with the washing machine to
get it to work cold only. Or just set it to low temperature wash.

Disconnecting the heater makes it sit there forever waiting for the
temp to be reached. Instead wire over one of the temp stats.

I don't like washing machines that have fixed temperatures for given
wash programmes - I prefer to be able to choose my own. If I want to run
a long wash at 30°C then that's what I want to do - not have the machine
force me to do it at 80°C instead. Some machines have a seperate
thermostat dial - which makes a lot of sense.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

On 10 Mar 2006 09:48:43 -0800 someone who may be
wrote this:-

The system at http://www.imaginationsolar.com/system.htm has a
number of advantages. One of these is that it does not use mains
electricity, which can exterminate 20% of the savings gained by
using solar hot water heating [1]. The control system is very
simple, if the sun is shining it pumps water into the panel and
starts warming up the cylinder. If the sun is not shining, or there
is snow on the PV panel, then the pump is not running and the panel
is drained of water.

Imho this is more the hype than the reality. The one advantage of a
solar panel pump supply is simplicity, but thats all. The electricity
created by the solar panel is the opposite of a worthwhile investment
for 99% of end users. The control system is a bit crude, and will
result in the system actively cooling your HW some of the time instead
of heating it. In short it isnt worth it, unless you're just not
skilled to do anything better.

All people are not alike. Some want something simple. There are many
reasons for this approach. Lack of skill is just one reason, another
reason is less to go wrong. If people want that sort of thing then I
see no reason to denigrate them. The Solartwin system has not got
any lights or things like that, though they do supply a digital
thermometer, it just works away in the background and lets people
get on with more important things. The Imagination system has a few
lights.

At the other end of the spectrum is something controlled by say
http://www.resol.de/en/Produkte/Sola...larregler.html the
Resol BS Pro. This may wring every last bit of heat out of the
panel. Whether it is worth having or is just a boy's toy is
debatable. I say each to their own.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

Gooey TARBALLS (in g55Rf.38060$CI6.32155@trnddc07) said:

| "appreciation for the partnership of friends willing to share
| peril." Second that.

I wish you had stopped at this point. Your choice of when, where, and
how to vent your anger displayed exactly the kind of behavior you
spoke against. If you want to continue this discussion with me, you
are invited to do so - but not in this thread or in this forum.

diatribe snipped

FWIW, it is my wish that /all/ involved return safely to those who
love and care about them. If that makes me an "ugly American", so be
it.

Salaam.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

On 12 Mar 2006 23:26:24 GMT someone who may be "Bob Eager"
wrote this:-

What is your solution to the (then) requirement for a zero length pipe
between the hot water cylinder and the machine?

In a sensibly designed house the taps used most often will be near
the source of hot water and the hot water pipes insulated. The
washing machine will be too. As a result hot water will arrive at
the machine almost instantly.

Some/many houses are badly designed. In these it probably makes
sense to heat the water electrically, especially if there is a
shortage of water.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

"Guy King" wrote in message
...
The message .com
from contains these words:

If it is so good, I want some and will meddle with the washing machine
to
get it to work cold only. Or just set it to low temperature wash.

Disconnecting the heater makes it sit there forever waiting for the
temp to be reached. Instead wire over one of the temp stats.

I don't like washing machines that have fixed temperatures for given
wash programmes - I prefer to be able to choose my own. If I want to run
a long wash at 30°C then that's what I want to do - not have the machine
force me to do it at 80°C instead. Some machines have a seperate
thermostat dial - which makes a lot of sense.

What are you doing trying to operate a washing machine anyway? That's
women's work.

Get back to the pub!

Mary

The message
from David Hansen contains these words:

Some/many houses are badly designed. In these it probably makes
sense to heat the water electrically, especially if there is a
shortage of water.

This is the answer I got this morning from Candy UK when I asked why
they don't sell hot/cold fill machines.


Good morning due to the cold water in take the water level intake have been
reduced washing machines only start to heat water at around 60degrees and
above so hot water intake is not needed hence why it it more energy
efficient


Make of that what you will.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

"Guy King" wrote in message
...
The message
from David Hansen contains these words:

Some/many houses are badly designed. In these it probably makes
sense to heat the water electrically, especially if there is a
shortage of water.

This is the answer I got this morning from Candy UK when I asked why
they don't sell hot/cold fill machines.


Good morning due to the cold water in take the water level intake have
been
reduced washing machines only start to heat water at around 60degrees and
above so hot water intake is not needed hence why it it more energy
efficient


Make of that what you will.

As most DHW is 45-55C this is tripe. What they are hiding is that they want
to put less in the thing.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Guy King" wrote in message
...
The message
from David Hansen contains these words:

Some/many houses are badly designed. In these it probably makes
sense to heat the water electrically, especially if there is a
shortage of water.

This is the answer I got this morning from Candy UK when I asked why
they don't sell hot/cold fill machines.


Good morning due to the cold water in take the water level intake have
been
reduced washing machines only start to heat water at around 60degrees and
above so hot water intake is not needed hence why it it more energy
efficient


Make of that what you will.

As most DHW is 45-55C this is tripe. What they are hiding is that they
want to put less in the thing.

Most DHW has cooled down to ambient temperature in the 'dead leg' from the
store to the washing machine inlet valve. What is the _measured_ temperature
of the inlet water at time A - start of fill; B - end of fill?

--

Brian

"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
...
Gooey TARBALLS (in g55Rf.38060$CI6.32155@trnddc07) said:

| "appreciation for the partnership of friends willing to share
| peril." Second that.

I wish you had stopped at this point. Your choice of when, where, and
how to vent your anger displayed exactly the kind of behavior you
spoke against. If you want to continue this discussion with me, you
are invited to do so - but not in this thread or in this forum.

diatribe snipped

FWIW, it is my wish that /all/ involved return safely to those who
love and care about them. If that makes me an "ugly American", so be
it.

Salaam.

Thank you again.

Mary

"Guy King" wrote in message
...


This is the answer I got this morning from Candy UK when I asked why
they don't sell hot/cold fill machines.


Good morning due to the cold water in take the water level intake have
been
reduced washing machines only start to heat water at around 60degrees and
above so hot water intake is not needed hence why it it more energy
efficient


Make of that what you will.

Translated from the Chinese?

Mary

The message
from "Mary Fisher" contains these words:


Make of that what you will.

Translated from the Chinese?

Via Swahili.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

David Hansen wrote:
On 12 Mar 2006 19:09:06 -0800 someone who may be
wrote this:-

Not only can you read my mind, but you can read it back in time.
That would be fascinating, if you were able to do it.

Do you want me to put it more directly? I certainly can.

People can draw their own conclusions from that assertion.

yes


thank you Captain Obvious.

Excellent, more personal abuse.

saying that what you said was stating the obvious is not personal abuse


Have you provided a figure to rebut mine with?

Yes.

Did I miss it? What is your figure for the annual saving of a typical
commercial DSHW system, and how do you arrive at that figure?


NT

On 13 Mar 2006 11:45:16 -0800 someone who may be
wrote this:-

In a sensibly designed house the taps used most often will be near
the source of hot water and the hot water pipes insulated. The
washing machine will be too. As a result hot water will arrive at
the machine almost instantly.

Do you not think that other considerations should be considered far
more important than this in sensible design?

That rather depends what the aim of the design is. In my view
reducing running costs and so reducing greenhouse gas emissions is
at least as important as anything else. That does not mean it is the
only consideration.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

"Guy King" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Mary Fisher" contains these words:


Make of that what you will.

Translated from the Chinese?

Via Swahili.

By an Italian.

On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 20:23:25 -0000
"Mary Fisher" wrote:


"Guy King" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Mary Fisher" contains these words:


Make of that what you will.

Translated from the Chinese?

Via Swahili.

By an Italian.

Computer program.

--
C:WIN | Directable Mirror Arrays
The computer obeys and wins. | A better way to focus the sun
You lose and Bill collects. | licences available see
| http://www.sohara.org/

wrote in message ups.com...
[...]
Have you provided a figure to rebut mine with?

Yes.

Did I miss it? What is your figure for the annual saving of a typical
commercial DSHW system, and how do you arrive at that figure?


OK. Since I caused the confusion, let me explain why I thought that the cost (or savings; sorry for the misunderstanding) was
extremely low :

Here is a 'saving' calculator for DHW :
http://www.infinitepower.org/calc_waterheating.htm

I have a 1-family home, using a 50 gallon tank with about 65% overall efficiency, using about 60 gallons HW per day. Gas-powered.
Northern California natural gas price (retail) is around $1.50 / therm.
So, I see DHW cost of about $350/year. That seems right extrapolating my summer gas bills (when I use gas only for HW).

Now, expected savings using solar DHW should be beteen 50% and 80% of DHW usage (seen this at various web-sites).
So I should save between $175 to $280/year.
And note that I an on the low-end of the consumption scale, using nat gas for DHW in a small household, using front-loader European
washer, and water-saving shower heads and such. Most people use a lot more than me, and many use electric DHW heaters, which
essentially double the cost.

So, once again : how did you get to savings of just £20 / year ?

Rob