The Natural Philosopher ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying :


Well whether I am wrond fepend on waht you claimn I actually said.

Sorry, BabelFish failed on that one...

6/. I have also asserted that whilst stengthening of electrical
distribution would be needed - this is not a huge technical issue, and
te costs involved are no worse than building a substation for e.g. a
new town here and there.

The trouble is, it isn't *just* "here and there". It's replacing an awful
lot of petrol stations. 10,000 or so of them. Each of which can "recharge"
each visitor with 3-400 miles worth of charge in 5 minutes.

7/. the majority of short haul traffic has enough power coming into
their homes to recharge overnight, on cheap rates, and with very
little infrastrucure adiition being requried. Only those travelling
more than 200 miles would NEED fast charging anyway.

Again, the problem is not so much one of "Only those travelling more than
200 miles" but one of "Only those _who will ever_ require the ability to
travel more than 200 miles". Which is the vast majority of users.

Not to mention all those urban dwellers who have no access to their
domestic electricity where they park. That's a lot of infrastructure
required for enabling "Oh, you've parked here? No problem, charge and
bill" points.

8/. The area where BEV shows the best efficiency, is in short haul
urban situations. This is also where on-street pollutiuon is at its
worst.

It's also where private transport is least needed.

do realise that just because a sinclair C5 is about as much use as
Drivels dick up your arse

small voice
I'd like a Sinclair C5.

LOUD VOICE
BUT I WOULD NOT LIKE...

On 16 Jan 2006 20:09:36 GMT, Adrian wrote:
do realise that just because a sinclair C5 is about as much use as
Drivels dick up your arse

small voice
I'd like a Sinclair C5.

LOUD VOICE
BUT I WOULD NOT LIKE...


Yeah,right. Really there is no more to be said is there?

Reasion never works on the Faithful, does it?

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 19:27:30 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote
(in message ):

Lithium cells have a theoretical energy desnity of 350Wh per kg...and
already up to half that or more has been achieved.

So 3kg per kWh, or 300kg for a 100kWh battery. I think that's wiped out any
weight saving from removing the engine & gearbox from most small cars. That's
assuming development to the full potential, at present it's going to be a
600kg battery.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
garbage wrote in message ...
In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 16:22:30 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


Anyone who drives a Prius in UK urban conditions will get at or near to
60 mpg. A very real figure in real world. Mine does that, and most
other do the same. Boy you are senile.

What colour is it?

Autocar who measure carefully the
mpg of their cars on test - not relying
on the OBC or makers figures - got 42
mpg on their urban test route.

Oh going up now is it. You said it was 23mpg. Ant increases on 42? Going,
going....

** snip senile garbage **

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatuence wrote in message ...
In article ,
Steve Firth wrote:
Good to see you admitting that you don't have a degree.

I have one, from a poper uni, not a snot.

You attended a Catholic university?

I didn't know they existed.

** snip babbling senility **

Sad isn't it.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 13:30:08 +0000, Steve Firth wrote:

Doctor Drivel wrote:

I have no time for arrogant pretentious
snotty uni people.

Good to see you admitting that you don't have a degree.

Oh he's getting at me, because I think he's a ******, and I did.

I know you are a complete pretentious snotty uni tosser. That is a well
known. What did you do?

"Simon Hobson" wrote in message
et...
On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 19:27:30 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote
(in message ):

Lithium cells have a theoretical energy desnity of 350Wh per kg...and
already up to half that or more has been achieved.

So 3kg per kWh, or 300kg for a 100kWh battery. I think that's wiped out
any
weight saving from removing the engine & gearbox from most small cars.
That's
assuming development to the full potential, at present it's going to be a
600kg battery.

In your worst case scenario, a crock of a polluting space consuming engine
and gearbox is removed, creating a better designed car for aerodynamics, and
interior space, saving energy again. Also the simplicity and maintenance
free mechanicals, not to mention the smoothness and quietness.

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 02:21:03 +0000, Clive
wrote:

In message ews.net,
Doctor Drivel writes
In your worst case scenario, a crock of a polluting space consuming
engine and gearbox is removed, creating a better designed car for
aerodynamics, and interior space, saving energy again. Also the
simplicity and maintenance free mechanicals, not to mention the
smoothness and quietness.
And loss of protection for the driver in a frontal impact.


You mean it's another Pinto? (Although that was rear impact)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Pinto


--

..andy

"Clive" wrote in message
...
In message ews.net,
Doctor Drivel writes

In your worst case scenario, a crock of a polluting space consuming engine
and gearbox is removed, creating a better designed car for aerodynamics,
and interior space, saving energy again. Also the simplicity and
maintenance free mechanicals, not to mention the smoothness and quietness.

And loss of protection for the driver in a frontal impact.

You really don't know do you. Crash resistance can be designed into any car
no matter where the propulsion unit is.

In message , Andy Hall
writes
And loss of protection for the driver in a frontal impact.


You mean it's another Pinto? (Although that was rear impact)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Pinto
Thanks for the link, it shows car manufacturers off, to be money first,
customer second merchants.
--
Clive

Clive wrote:
In message , Andy Hall
writes
And loss of protection for the driver in a frontal impact.


You mean it's another Pinto? (Although that was rear impact)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Pinto
Thanks for the link, it shows car manufacturers off, to be money
first, customer second merchants.

Which makes them different to any other business in what way?

"Clive" wrote in message
...
In message , Andy Hall
writes
And loss of protection for the driver in a frontal impact.


You mean it's another Pinto? (Although that was rear impact)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Pinto

Thanks for the link, it shows car manufacturers off, to be money first,
customer second merchants.

Yep. If it was customer first we would be driving EVs.

"Clive" wrote in message
...
In message ews.net,
Doctor Drivel writes
BTW, US gallons are smaller than UK.

My word, this mans bright,

You never knew that.

"Clive" wrote in message
...
In message ews.net,
Doctor Drivel writes
Senile people will have difficulty in understanding this simple concept.

That's why you don't understand it then.

What school of wit did you attend?

"Alistair J Murray" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Alistair J Murray" wrote in message
...

[...]

Cross-country journeys of more than 300miles mostly.

A Prius will do that no problem and return superb mpg.

But in *far* less comfort.

You should stop making things up.

95% of people in the UK fall in line with the Prius.

Yet 99.9% don't buy one...

Because most have never heard of it....yet.

Even those who've heard of it very, very rarely buy one.

Because of the waiting list.

My current car can transport me and my passengers across continents
without strain at average speeds greater than the Pius's maximum
in complete comfort...

So can the Prius and use les fuel and pollute less. Prius max speed
100mph. You are thick.

On a recent journey through Germany I averaged ~140mph.

You can't here, and shouldn't there either. That is irresponsible on a
public road. You should be locked up.

Averaging over 100mph is not difficult.

My current car can overtake very quickly, and therefore safely, on
SC trunk roads...

So can a Prius.

A Prius does 50-70mph in 7.9s, my car takes 2.5s; much safer.

It isn't safer at all. The safety is in the driver, you are obviously a
poor driver too.

My current car can corner at 1G, reducing wasteful braking...

Prius braking is regen and charges the battery.

Just as well since it has to slow so much for corners.

It goes around corners like it is on rails.

Boy you are dumb...and make things up a lot.

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

I have no time for arrogant pretentious snotty uni people.

Good to see you admitting that you don't have a degree.

I have one, from a poper uni, not a snot.

You attended a Catholic university?

I didn't know they existed.

So much you don't know.

That is not worth knowing, so I'm glad you know it.

Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

In your worst case scenario, a crock of a polluting space consuming
engine and gearbox is removed, creating a better designed car for
aerodynamics, and interior space, saving energy again.

No, because you STILL need to consider impact protection.

"Adrian" wrote in message
. 244.170...
Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

In your worst case scenario, a crock of a polluting space consuming
engine and gearbox is removed, creating a better designed car for
aerodynamics, and interior space, saving energy again.

No, because you STILL need to consider impact protection.

That is designed in. You appear to think only an engine at the front
protects you. This is very wrong.

Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying :

In your worst case scenario, a crock of a polluting space consuming
engine and gearbox is removed, creating a better designed car for
aerodynamics, and interior space, saving energy again.

No, because you STILL need to consider impact protection.

That is designed in. You appear to think only an engine at the front
protects you. This is very wrong.

Obviously you don't need an engine at the front - because otherwise
anything mid- or rear-engined would not get through.

But you DO need deformable crushzones in the way, which take up space. Find
me anything on the market today that doesn't have space in front of the
driver.

You Still Need Something There.

That's what dictates packaging as much as anything, not the space required
for the mechanicals. Look under the bonnet of any modern small hatch -
plenty of fresh air, allowing space for the structure to deform.

"Clive" wrote in message
...
In message ews.net,
Doctor Drivel writes
Yep. If it was customer first we would be driving EVs.

I certainly wouldn't want one so no we wouldn't all be driving EVs.

So you like to drive around in a tractor. What about those who love combine
harvesters? Should they be allowed on the road too?

"Adrian" wrote in message
. 244.170...
Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying :

In your worst case scenario, a crock of a polluting space consuming
engine and gearbox is removed, creating a better designed car for
aerodynamics, and interior space, saving energy again.

No, because you STILL need to consider impact protection.

That is designed in. You appear to think only an engine at the front
protects you. This is very wrong.

Obviously you don't need an engine at the front - because otherwise
anything mid- or rear-engined would not get through.

But you DO need deformable crushzones

Yep, at last, you have it. Boy are they slow.

Adrian wrote:
That's what dictates packaging as much as anything, not the space required
for the mechanicals. Look under the bonnet of any modern small hatch -
plenty of fresh air, allowing space for the structure to deform.

Nah. Twice that amount of space at least is going to be used for the
batteries. Still seems to me like a very heavy vehicle with not much
load space and poor economics. Rather like two combi's. Are we surprised?

Regards
Capitol

"Capitol" wrote in message
...


Adrian wrote:
That's what dictates packaging as much as anything, not the space
required for the mechanicals. Look under the bonnet of any modern small
hatch - plenty of fresh air, allowing space for the structure to deform.

Nah. Twice that amount of space at least is going to be used for the
batteries. Still seems to me like a very heavy vehicle with not much load
space and poor economics.

Pay attention, modern battery packs are not big, especially Lith batteries.

Rather like two combi's. Are we surprised?

No, as two combis doesn't take up much space at all. Boy you have no depth
of thought. Sad but true.



Regards
Capitol

Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

That's what dictates packaging as much as anything, not the space
required for the mechanicals. Look under the bonnet of any modern
small hatch - plenty of fresh air, allowing space for the structure
to deform.

Nah. Twice that amount of space at least is going to be used for the
batteries.

*ding*

Still seems to me like a very heavy vehicle with not much load space and
poor economics.

Pay attention, modern battery packs are not big, especially Lith
batteries.

I've never seen Lithium batteries even *remotely* close to the sort of
capacity that'd be needed for any sensible range on an electric car. What
sort of size do you think they'd be?

About the size of a shoe box?
About the size of a box of 5 reams of A4 paper?
About the size of a domestic washing machine?

In message ews.net,
Doctor Drivel writes
Pay attention, modern battery packs are not big, especially Lith batteries.
Pay attention, modern Li-ion cells are used to power phones and they're
normally running out of puff after two years use, that's less than 100
charges. What good are batteries that lose charge whilst standing,
loose efficiency over time and loose poisonous or highly corrosive
chemicals in the event of an accident.
--
Clive

"Adrian" wrote in message
. 244.170...
Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

That's what dictates packaging as much as anything, not the space
required for the mechanicals. Look under the bonnet of any modern
small hatch - plenty of fresh air, allowing space for the structure
to deform.

Nah. Twice that amount of space at least is going to be used for the
batteries.

*ding*

Still seems to me like a very heavy vehicle with not much load space and
poor economics.

Pay attention, modern battery packs are not big, especially Lith
batteries.

I've never seen Lithium batteries even *remotely* close to the sort of
capacity that'd be needed for any sensible range on an electric car. What
sort of size do you think they'd be?

Oh a quiz...

About the size of a shoe box?
About the size of a box of 5 reams of A4 paper?
About the size of a domestic washing machine?

Multiple choice too.

Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

Pay attention, modern battery packs are not big, especially Lith
batteries.

I've never seen Lithium batteries even *remotely* close to the sort
of capacity that'd be needed for any sensible range on an electric
car. What sort of size do you think they'd be?

Oh a quiz...

No, a question.

About the size of a shoe box?
About the size of a box of 5 reams of A4 paper?
About the size of a domestic washing machine?

Multiple choice too.

But no answer?

"Clive" wrote in message
...
In message ews.net,
Doctor Drivel writes
Pay attention, modern battery packs are not big, especially Lith
batteries.

Pay attention, modern Li-ion cells are used to power phones and they're
normally running out of puff after two years use, that's less than 100
charges. What good are batteries that lose charge whilst standing, loose
efficiency over time and loose poisonous or highly corrosive chemicals in
the event of an accident.

You have been told to stop making things up.

Adrian wrote:

I've never seen Lithium batteries even *remotely* close to the sort of
capacity that'd be needed for any sensible range on an electric car. What
sort of size do you think they'd be?

About the size of a shoe box?
About the size of a box of 5 reams of A4 paper?
About the size of a domestic washing machine?

Well, Lithium is about half the density of water, so taking a previous
posters estimate of 600Kg, thats about 300 litres of water, approaching
70 gallons of space, 5 petrol tanks, plus the cooling space required,
say another(6th) petrol tank. That's before you consider the hazards of
having Lithium in your vehicle. Lithium reacts quite nicely with water,
phone batteries are already known to have exploded, as have some of the
military lithium battery pack units. So building in some mechanical
protection for the battery pack(and driver) is going to add quite a bit
more weight to the vehicle, the steel gets thicker and the load space
shrinks even further. I'm sure others can further help IMM see more
follies in his thinking. At least the Prius with Nimh batteries is only
a major electrical hazard to the emergency services and service
technicians, the driver is quite safe if he/she doesn't want to go on
motorways, where they seem rather prone to random stopping events. The
last time I checked, they were doing quite well at degrading Toyota's
reputation for outstanding reliability.

Regards
Capitol

Adrian wrote:

Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

Pay attention, modern battery packs are not big, especially Lith
batteries.

I've never seen Lithium batteries even *remotely* close to the sort
of capacity that'd be needed for any sensible range on an electric
car. What sort of size do you think they'd be?

Oh a quiz...

No, a question.

About the size of a shoe box?
About the size of a box of 5 reams of A4 paper?
About the size of a domestic washing machine?

Multiple choice too.

But no answer?

You're surprised?

Phil Bradshaw ) gurgled happily, sounding much
like they were saying :

But no answer?

You're surprised?

Not really...

Doctor Drivel wrote:


"Adrian" wrote in message
. 244.170...

Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

That's what dictates packaging as much as anything, not the space
required for the mechanicals. Look under the bonnet of any modern
small hatch - plenty of fresh air, allowing space for the structure
to deform.


Nah. Twice that amount of space at least is going to be used for the
batteries.


*ding*

Still seems to me like a very heavy vehicle with not much load space
and
poor economics.


Pay attention, modern battery packs are not big, especially Lith
batteries.


I've never seen Lithium batteries even *remotely* close to the sort of
capacity that'd be needed for any sensible range on an electric car. What
sort of size do you think they'd be?


Oh a quiz...

About the size of a shoe box?
About the size of a box of 5 reams of A4 paper?
About the size of a domestic washing machine?


Multiple choice too.


Try this one.

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2005/HZB0501.pdf

Regards
Capitol

Doctor Drivel wrote:


"Adrian" wrote in message
. 244.170...

Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

That's what dictates packaging as much as anything, not the space
required for the mechanicals. Look under the bonnet of any modern
small hatch - plenty of fresh air, allowing space for the structure
to deform.


Nah. Twice that amount of space at least is going to be used for the
batteries.


*ding*

Still seems to me like a very heavy vehicle with not much load space
and
poor economics.


Pay attention, modern battery packs are not big, especially Lith
batteries.


I've never seen Lithium batteries even *remotely* close to the sort of
capacity that'd be needed for any sensible range on an electric car. What
sort of size do you think they'd be?


Oh a quiz...

About the size of a shoe box?
About the size of a box of 5 reams of A4 paper?
About the size of a domestic washing machine?


Multiple choice too.

Perhaps try this?

http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/lithiumion_psds.pdf.

In cars? You must be joking!

Regards
Capitol

John Wright wrote:

The Prius is never a hazard to emergency services - the HV battery is
cut off in the case of *any* eventuality, and all the cables are
armoured, coloured orange and contained in protective channels to
prevent this very eventuality.

So that's why the US has issued special "leave it alone" instructions
for dealing with Prius accidents then!

Regards
Capitol

In article . 170,
Adrian wrote:
Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

Pay attention, modern battery packs are not big, especially Lith
batteries.

I've never seen Lithium batteries even *remotely* close to the sort of
capacity that'd be needed for any sensible range on an electric car.
What sort of size do you think they'd be?

Dribble has no idea. He never has been able to answer any question
accurately where the data isn't available on an advert. It's called lack
of understanding of principles.

--
*If you don't pay your exorcist you get repossessed.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 22:54:44 +0000, Capitol
wrote:



John Wright wrote:

The Prius is never a hazard to emergency services - the HV battery is
cut off in the case of *any* eventuality, and all the cables are
armoured, coloured orange and contained in protective channels to
prevent this very eventuality.

So that's why the US has issued special "leave it alone" instructions
for dealing with Prius accidents then!

Regards
Capitol

.... and definitely don't send it by Fedex......



--

..andy

"Capitol" wrote in message
...


Adrian wrote:

I've never seen Lithium batteries even *remotely* close to the sort of
capacity that'd be needed for any sensible range on an electric car. What
sort of size do you think they'd be?

About the size of a shoe box?
About the size of a box of 5 reams of A4 paper?
About the size of a domestic washing machine?

Well, Lithium is about half the density of water, so taking a previous
posters estimate of 600Kg, thats about 300 litres of water, approaching 70
gallons of space, 5 petrol tanks, plus the cooling space required, say
another(6th) petrol tank. That's before you consider the hazards of having
Lithium in your vehicle. Lithium reacts quite nicely with water, phone
batteries are already known to have exploded, as have some of the military
lithium battery pack units. So building in some mechanical protection for
the battery pack(and driver) is going to add quite a bit more weight to
the vehicle, the steel gets thicker and the load space shrinks even
further. I'm sure others can further help IMM see more follies in his
thinking. At least the Prius with Nimh batteries is only a major
electrical hazard to the emergency services and service technicians, the
driver is quite safe if he/she doesn't want to go on motorways, where they
seem rather prone to random stopping events.

Proof please?

The last time I checked, they were doing quite well at degrading Toyota's
reputation for outstanding reliability.

The Prius is one of the most reliable cars in he USA - JD Power and all
that.

"Adrian" wrote in message
. 244.170...
Phil Bradshaw ) gurgled happily, sounding much
like they were saying :

But no answer?

You're surprised?

Not really...

This is not a pub.

"Capitol" wrote in message
...


Doctor Drivel wrote:


"Adrian" wrote in message
. 244.170...

Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

That's what dictates packaging as much as anything, not the space
required for the mechanicals. Look under the bonnet of any modern
small hatch - plenty of fresh air, allowing space for the structure
to deform.


Nah. Twice that amount of space at least is going to be used for the
batteries.


*ding*

Still seems to me like a very heavy vehicle with not much load space
and
poor economics.


Pay attention, modern battery packs are not big, especially Lith
batteries.


I've never seen Lithium batteries even *remotely* close to the sort of
capacity that'd be needed for any sensible range on an electric car.
What
sort of size do you think they'd be?


Oh a quiz...

About the size of a shoe box?
About the size of a box of 5 reams of A4 paper?
About the size of a domestic washing machine?


Multiple choice too.


Try this one.

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2005/HZB0501.pdf

and?

"Capitol" wrote in message
...


Doctor Drivel wrote:


"Adrian" wrote in message
. 244.170...

Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

That's what dictates packaging as much as anything, not the space
required for the mechanicals. Look under the bonnet of any modern
small hatch - plenty of fresh air, allowing space for the structure
to deform.


Nah. Twice that amount of space at least is going to be used for the
batteries.


*ding*

Still seems to me like a very heavy vehicle with not much load space
and
poor economics.


Pay attention, modern battery packs are not big, especially Lith
batteries.


I've never seen Lithium batteries even *remotely* close to the sort of
capacity that'd be needed for any sensible range on an electric car.
What
sort of size do you think they'd be?


Oh a quiz...

About the size of a shoe box?
About the size of a box of 5 reams of A4 paper?
About the size of a domestic washing machine?


Multiple choice too.

Perhaps try this?

http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/lithiumion_psds.pdf.

and?