In message 70, Adrian
writes
I'll bet you would have said that ten years ago, too. Yet today's
diesel (and, to a lesser extent, petrol) is a very different beast to
that of a decade back.
Who, ten years ago would have dared make a direct injection diesel car?
Then came common rail and now there is multi injection timing improving
all the time. After seeing that the Detroit motor show was mainly
based on hybrids and 50 state diesels it looks as if manufacturers still
have cards up their sleeves.
--
Clive

In article ,
John Wright wrote:
I'll bet you would have said that ten years ago, too. Yet today's diesel
(and, to a lesser extent, petrol) is a very different beast to that of a
decade back.

I doubt that. We new ten years ago that Lean Burn was just round the
corner. What rabbits can we pull out of the hat now?

Well, you could start with the post at the top of this thread...;-)

--
*Give me ambiguity or give me something else.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message ews.net,
Doctor Drivel writes
But diesels are noisy and filthy emitting soot - so a no. no.
Ever thought you could be wrong. Soot is visible, but unburned and
therefore not causing harmful CO2 and not invisible like the harmful
PM10s produced by all engines.
--
Clive

Doctor Drivel ) wrote

All cars, except the Prius have in-line gearboxes.

Define an 'in-line gearbox'

--
*The average person falls asleep in seven minutes *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Clive" wrote in message
...
In message ws.net,
Doctor Drivel writes

Designed and built from scratch they cost no more to build.

http://www2.rgu.ac.uk/subj/search/Research/SustainableHousing/Sust-H-Design/Publications/zeroleaflet.htm

All costed.

As I read it, firstly you'd need to demolish the house you live in, then
rebuild at an additional 19.5K then add another 5.5K just to save a few
hundred pounds a year on fuel. Unless new build just not practicable and
backs up what I have already said.

You are very slow. Firstly, I said "Designed and built from scratch [eco
houses] they cost no more to build."

The figures bear that out. Also. a few hundred pounds a year saved? And
he rest as fuel keep spiralling up.

The point again....I hope it sinks in....
"Designed and built from scratch [eco houses] they cost no more to build."

Got it? Not my figures. From a reputable uni who did the R&D.

Clive ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying :

I'll bet you would have said that ten years ago, too. Yet today's
diesel (and, to a lesser extent, petrol) is a very different beast to
that of a decade back.

Who, ten years ago would have dared make a direct injection diesel car?

Direct Injection's nothing new, Clive... Hell, even Monte(don't)goes use
direct injection.

In article ,
John Wright wrote:
Try and keep up, John. ;-) It's an expensive answer to a problem that
doesn't exist in the UK.

Obviously you never see the traffic queues going towards London and
other major conurbations in the mornings and leaving again in the
evenings.

Err, if you look at my sig...

If you think that problem does not exist I'm afraid your
head is in the sand. Prius is expensive, but like cheap oil the days
of cheap cars are probably behind us.

So what is needed is a truly economical car - not one which just fiddles
the 'official' figures.

In the UK, if the Prius actually did what it says on the box it would
be the prime choice of upmarket mini cab firms for mainly town use.
After all, it's said to have a longer warranty than any other car, low
service costs and fabulous fuel consumption. What more could a taxi
firm ask for?

They don't want to pay the large capital cost for it? I've never seen
a mini cab firm using brand new cars but Prius is so uncommon in the
UK they would have to be.

Well, Addison Lee in London are effectively a mini cab firm and use new
vehicles of the same sort of price as the Prius.

--
*Why do we say something is out of whack? What is a whack? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Clive" wrote in message
...
In message 70, Adrian
writes
I'll bet you would have said that ten years ago, too. Yet today's diesel
(and, to a lesser extent, petrol) is a very different beast to that of a
decade back.

Who, ten years ago would have dared make a direct injection diesel car?

Sill only 25% efficient, so it is just like shuffling the deckchairs on the
Titanic. In 100 years no change worth mentioning.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
Doctor Drivel ) wrote

All cars, except the Prius have in-line gearboxes.

Define an 'in-line gearbox'

Richard, read by on my posts.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message
...
In article ,
John Wright wrote:
I'll bet you would have said that ten years ago, too. Yet today's diesel
(and, to a lesser extent, petrol) is a very different beast to that of a
decade back.

I doubt that. We new ten years ago that Lean Burn was just round the
corner. What rabbits can we pull out of the hat now?

Well, you could start with the post at the top of this thread...;-)

As I said it is crap and overcomplex. What have BMW ever some up with that
advanced things?

"Clive" wrote in message
...
In message ews.net,
Doctor Drivel writes

But diesels are noisy and filthy emitting soot - so a no. no.

Ever thought you could be wrong.

I am not wrong.

Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

What have BMW ever some up with that advanced things?

Actually, and I'm far from a BMW fan... - BMW are leading the rest with
bringing new developments to the petrol engine to the market - by a long
way.

"Adrian" wrote in message
. 244.170...
Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

What have BMW ever some up with that advanced things?

Actually, and I'm far from a BMW fan...

Filth the lot of them.

- BMW are leading the rest with bringing
new developments to the petrol engine
to the market - by a long way.

As I said it is like shuffling deckchairs around on the Titanic.

On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 17:03:53 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Adrian" wrote in message
.244.170...
Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

The Toshiba battery look the business, being 80% charged in 3 mins.
This means all the brake regen will be clawed back.

I think there could be a Nobel prize in this for you, if you can get it to
work...

As it all works already I don't think they will give me one.


Given some of your stories, you could probably win the one for
literature. I'll put your name forward if you like. Which one would
you like me to use?


--

..andy

Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

The Toshiba battery look the business, being 80% charged in 3 mins.
This means all the brake regen will be clawed back.

I think there could be a Nobel prize in this for you, if you can get
it to work...

As it all works already I don't think they will give me one.

Oh, I dunno.. I think you've just managed to completely and utterly rewrite
several previously-accepted laws of physics...

John Wright ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

The Prius will - and frequently does - drive on purely internal
combustion power, therefore it needs a gearbox. to convert the rev
range of that internal combustion engine to the rev range of the
wheels. Agreed?

Except it doesn't have any gears.

So what *does* it contain? Pixie dust?

How, without a gearbox, do you convert a flywheel rev range of roughly
1,000-5,000rpm to a wheel rev range of somewhere around -150 to +1500 rpm?

OK - so it has a gearbox. It's a gearbox. A perfectly normal CVT.
Except it's just a slightly more complex one, because of the need to
divert engine power to the motor/generator to charge the battery and
to add in torque from the motor/generator to that from the internal
combustion engine.

With no gears in it. I don't know another design of CVT like the Prius
power splitter so you can't really say its perfectly normal.

shrug
It's quite straightforward.

It's a basic CVT merged with an epicyclic power splitter. Nothing
earthshattering.

http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/prius-transmission

Doctor Drivel dribbled:
"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of
senile flatulence wrote in message
...
In article , John
Wright wrote:

[...]

I doubt that. We new ten years ago that Lean Burn was just round
the corner. What rabbits can we pull out of the hat now?

Well, you could start with the post at the top of this thread...
;-)

Indeedy!

As I said it is crap and overcomplex.

It's substantialy less complex than some of the things you've pointed to.

What have BMW ever some up with that advanced things?

Throttleless petrol engines, free flow metallic exhaust catalysts (with
ALPINA and EMITEC), sequential turbocharging (with ALPINA and Steyr)...

....and that's just the efficiency boosting stuff.

BMW is very much an engineering driven company.




A

In message . 170,
Adrian writes
Direct Injection's nothing new, Clive... Hell, even Monte(don't)goes
use direct injection.
The only direct injection passenger type vehicle I can find from 10
years ago is the Transit van. I know direct injection was always the
norm for diesels of all sizes as it makes for better economy, but cars
were idi's to keep down the noise, but suffered from worse fuel economy.
--
Clive

In message ews.net,
Doctor Drivel writes
I am not wrong.
Answer of a closed mind.
--
Clive

In message , John Wright
writes
Containing nothing that resembles a gear IIRC
Care to explain what sun and planet wheels and an annulus is?
--
Clive

The message ews.net
from "Doctor Drivel" contains these words:

ISTR that in 1974 there was only one 5*
pump on the Isle of Skye.

Roger, were you driven that far away by the neighbours?

Just there for a weeks walking. Had a splendid day out on the Thursday
of Whit week that year. A traverse of the Main Ridge of the Black
Cuillin, one of the gems of British Mountaineering.

To keep vaguely on topic on the way home I did the 490 miles from Kyle
of Lockalsh to home in just 7 hours including stops. Of course I don't
drive at that sort of speed these days.

--
Roger Chapman

"Adrian" wrote in message
. 244.170...
Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

The Toshiba battery look the business, being 80% charged in 3 mins.
This means all the brake regen will be clawed back.

I think there could be a Nobel prize in this for you, if you can get
it to work...

As it all works already I don't think they will give me one.

Oh, I dunno..

** snip drivel by a retard **

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 17:03:53 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Adrian" wrote in message
3.244.170...
Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

The Toshiba battery look the business, being 80% charged in 3 mins.
This means all the brake regen will be clawed back.

I think there could be a Nobel prize in this for you, if you can get it
to
work...

As it all works already I don't think they will give me one.

Given some of your stories, you could probably win the one for
literature.

Brilliant at literature I am.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...

So what is needed is a truly economical
car - not one which just fiddles
the 'official' figures.

Richard Cranium, that's true. That is why Toyota made the Pius and it is
taking off like a rocket.

** snip senility by Richard ***

"John Wright" wrote in message
...
On 14 Jan 2006 16:56:30 GMT, Adrian wrote:

John Wright ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they
were saying :

The only difference with this one is that it has
the ability to blend a second input, from the
electric motor. Really not all that much tricksier.

Nope. Not at all. It splits the power between two motors to present
the combined power as an electric motor, which if you didn't know
requires no in-line gearbox.

sigh
What's so inherently different between how an electric motor and an
internal combustion engine "present power"?

You could present a thesis sized document on this. Power and torque
characteristics of an electric motor and an ICE are totally different.

We're not talking about the power and torque. We're talking about how it
*presents* that power and torque. Through a rotating shaft. As simple as
that.

Again, the power and torque characteristics are very different.

The Prius will - and frequently does - drive on purely internal combustion
power, therefore it needs a gearbox. to convert the rev range of that
internal combustion engine to the rev range of the wheels. Agreed?

Except it doesn't have any gears.

OK - so it has a gearbox. It's a gearbox. A perfectly normal CVT. Except
it's just a slightly more complex one, because of the need to divert
engine
power to the motor/generator to charge the battery and to add in torque
from the motor/generator to that from the internal combustion engine.

With no gears in it. I don't know another design of CVT like the Prius
power splitter so you can't really say its perfectly normal.

Yep. The depth of thought of them is very limited indeed.

The 'power splitter', is in effect a controlling device that splits power
between the petrol and electric motor, which are in parallel, presenting to
the wheels the characteristics of an electric motor. It is not an in series
power train, as is a conventional in-line gearbox.

The hard of thinking can't grasp this. Some of them even think an electric
motor and a petrol motor are the same in output. Sad I know. Very sad.

Clive ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying :

Direct Injection's nothing new, Clive... Hell, even Monte(don't)goes
use direct injection.

The only direct injection passenger type vehicle I can find from 10
years ago is the Transit van. I know direct injection was always the
norm for diesels of all sizes as it makes for better economy, but cars
were idi's to keep down the noise, but suffered from worse fuel economy.

Perkins Prima in the Montego (and Maestro?) was DI.

"Roger" wrote in message
k...
The message ews.net
from "Doctor Drivel" contains these words:

ISTR that in 1974 there was only one 5*
pump on the Isle of Skye.

Roger, were you driven that far
away by the neighbours?

Just there for a weeks walking.

Forest Gump did that and walked all over America. Did you walk all over the
UK Roger?

Alistair J Murray ) gurgled happily, sounding much
like they were saying :

What have BMW ever some up with that advanced things?

Throttleless petrol engines, free flow metallic exhaust catalysts (with
ALPINA and EMITEC), sequential turbocharging (with ALPINA and Steyr)...

...and that's just the efficiency boosting stuff.

Electronically variable rate oil and water pumps in the new PSA-joint Mini
lump, too.

BMW is very much an engineering driven company.

Thank **** they don't rely on the styling, eh?

Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

I think there could be a Nobel prize in this for you, if you can
get it to work...

As it all works already I don't think they will give me one.

Given some of your stories, you could probably win the one for
literature.

Brilliant at literature I am.

Good at science-fiction, that's true.

Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

Toyota made the Pius

snort
Wonderful typo.

"Alistair J Murray" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel brilliantly wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message
...
In article , John
Wright wrote:

[...]

I doubt that. We new ten years ago that Lean Burn was just round
the corner. What rabbits can we pull out of the hat now?

Well, you could start with the post at the top of this thread...
;-)

Indeedy!

As I said it is crap and overcomplex.

It's substantialy less complex
than some of the things you've pointed to.

You jest of course. I do like people who like to have fun.

** snip drivel **

John Wright wrote:
They don't want to pay the large capital cost for it?

It's far cheaper than a new black cab.

Regards
Capitol

"Clive" wrote in message
...
In message . 170, Adrian
writes
Direct Injection's nothing new, Clive... Hell, even Monte(don't)goes use
direct injection.

The only direct injection passenger type vehicle I can find from 10 years
ago is the Transit van.

So not new and adds more polluting diesel fumes for us to breathe in.

** snip drivel **

"Clive" wrote in message
...
In message ews.net,
Doctor Drivel writes

I am not wrong.

Answer of a closed mind.

Closed to lunatics, yes.

"Clive" wrote in message
...
In message , John Wright
writes

Containing nothing that resembles a gear IIRC

Care to explain what sun and planet wheels and an annulus is?

No ratio in-line, driveline, shifting, that is for certain.

Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Alistair J Murray" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

[...]

The links reinforced the power splitter arrangement. Thanks for
that.

You mean the thing that allows the relative rates of rotation of
different power-train components to vary?

Yep.

Good.

Just like a gearbox does...

Nope. It acts in 'parallel not series. It splits power between two
motors to present to the wheels the characteristic of an electric
motor. Read what I wrote again. When it sinks in you will feel
much better.

Its place in the powertrain may be different but it is no less a gearbox
for that; it still needs to be built at a cost and engineered to an
acceptable compromise of cost and longevity.

You cannot claim any gain is simplicity from removing the need for a
conventionally placed gearbox when it is not merely deleted but replaced
by a similar component in a different place.




A

Doctor Drivel wrote:


"Adrian" wrote in message
. 244.170...

Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

The only developments that would prolong these filthy crocks is a
rotary version - not wankel. A few version of these are around, but
look far off.


A rotary, that isn't a Wankel? First I've heard.


That figures, as you are hard of thinking

The Rand Cam, which appears to have some backing:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/engines/index.html
http://www.regtech.com/93.html

'The engine has a calculated 30% working volume efficiency compared to
the 10% of a Wankel, and 4% for a piston engine.'

It may end up in a hybrid - and that is hybrid trucks too. Although
small external combustion Stirlings are 'probably' the better choice in
a hybrid.

Well, as the current RX? Wankel engined vehicle is the worst modern oil
consuming device I have experienced ( 2000mpg)(1.3L), no one in their
right mind would produce an economy model. The fuel mpg is also
consistently below expectations, and in winter you need a "super, super
grade " battery if you wish to start it at -10C.

Regards
Capitol

John Wright ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

In the UK, if the Prius actually did what it says on the box it would
be the prime choice of upmarket mini cab firms for mainly town use.
After all, it's said to have a longer warranty than any other car, low
service costs and fabulous fuel consumption. What more could a taxi
firm ask for?

More seats?

They don't want to pay the large capital cost for it? I've never seen
a mini cab firm using brand new cars

They predominently do round here - but mainly new people carriers.

Capitol ) gurgled happily, sounding much
like they were saying :

They don't want to pay the large capital cost for it?

It's far cheaper than a new black cab.

And fails the Public Carriage Office requirements on about three thousand
and umpty different points.

Doctor Drivel wrote:

[...]

It is clear these fools don't want to know how the Prius works
technically (this they can't comprehend at all) and clearly don't
want to know.

Not at all, there is some interesting engineering in there.

They also fail to see the benefits of such a car which are many and
outstrip all other cars.

There are undoubtedly some benefits in some circumstances, none of which
coincide with my car usage.

A Prius is comprehensively outperformed by my current car in nearly
every aspect of my car use, so I won't be buying one any time soon. I
do quite fancy the electric car with the genny in a trailer that someone
linked to earlier though...



A