Hi,

sorry to start another thread, but this is a very active group and I assume
everyone has moved on from my other thread.

I forgot to mention that the electrician that wired up my extractor,
chiseled into the wall (no problem) to run the cable into the spur and the
extractor. Am I wrong to expect him to then plaster over the cable and make
good the channel he's made in the wall?

I'm not on a witch-hunt for this guy, but I think the kitchen people are
about to try and charge me for this work, when I didn't request it in the
first place. If they do, then I'd like to be able to ask them to come back
and finish it properly.

I've uploaded some pics to explain what I mean:

www.houlker.com/1.jpg
www.houlker.com/2.jpg

Thanks for all advice

"-=D@n=-" wrote in message
...
Hi,

sorry to start another thread, but this is a very active group and I
assume everyone has moved on from my other thread.

I forgot to mention that the electrician that wired up my extractor,
chiseled into the wall (no problem) to run the cable into the spur and the
extractor. Am I wrong to expect him to then plaster over the cable and
make good the channel he's made in the wall?

I'm not on a witch-hunt for this guy, but I think the kitchen people are
about to try and charge me for this work, when I didn't request it in the
first place. If they do, then I'd like to be able to ask them to come back
and finish it properly.

I've uploaded some pics to explain what I mean:

www.houlker.com/1.jpg
www.houlker.com/2.jpg

Thanks for all advice





I would expect him to make good, and I hope that the double socket is on the
ring and isn't already a spur.

Peter

-=D@n=- wrote on 26/08/2005 :

I'm not on a witch-hunt for this guy, but I think the kitchen people are
about to try and charge me for this work, when I didn't request it in the
first place. If they do, then I'd like to be able to ask them to come back
and finish it properly.

1. The cable should have been provided with some mechanical protection,
it is against regulations to install the bare PVC in a wall without
this.

2. From the photos it looks as if the actual cable size used is too
small. Difficult to be certain, however.... It looks like 1.5mm and
regulations require 2.5mm be used at least as far as the spur, which
needs to be of the fused type.

--

Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.org

"Peter Andrews" wrote in message
k...

"-=D@n=-" wrote in message
...
Hi,

sorry to start another thread, but this is a very active group and I
assume everyone has moved on from my other thread.

I forgot to mention that the electrician that wired up my extractor,
chiseled into the wall (no problem) to run the cable into the spur and
the extractor. Am I wrong to expect him to then plaster over the cable
and make good the channel he's made in the wall?

I'm not on a witch-hunt for this guy, but I think the kitchen people are
about to try and charge me for this work, when I didn't request it in the
first place. If they do, then I'd like to be able to ask them to come
back and finish it properly.

I've uploaded some pics to explain what I mean:

www.houlker.com/1.jpg
www.houlker.com/2.jpg

Thanks for all advice





I would expect him to make good, and I hope that the double socket is on
the ring and isn't already a spur.

Peter

Fantastic. Is there a way for me to check whether the double socket is on
the ring and not a spur? I have a Multimeter!

"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
...
-=D@n=- wrote on 26/08/2005 :

I'm not on a witch-hunt for this guy, but I think the kitchen people are
about to try and charge me for this work, when I didn't request it in the
first place. If they do, then I'd like to be able to ask them to come
back and finish it properly.

1. The cable should have been provided with some mechanical protection, it
is against regulations to install the bare PVC in a wall without this.

Excellent!


2. From the photos it looks as if the actual cable size used is too small.
Difficult to be certain, however.... It looks like 1.5mm and regulations
require 2.5mm be used at least as far as the spur, which needs to be of
the fused type.

Excellent again, I'll go and measure it.

Thanks for the quick response, much appreciated.

"Peter Andrews" wrote in message
k...

"-=D@n=-" wrote in message
...
Hi,

sorry to start another thread, but this is a very active group and I
assume everyone has moved on from my other thread.

I forgot to mention that the electrician that wired up my extractor,
chiseled into the wall (no problem) to run the cable into the spur and
the extractor. Am I wrong to expect him to then plaster over the cable
and make good the channel he's made in the wall?

I'm not on a witch-hunt for this guy, but I think the kitchen people are
about to try and charge me for this work, when I didn't request it in the
first place. If they do, then I'd like to be able to ask them to come
back and finish it properly.

I've uploaded some pics to explain what I mean:

www.houlker.com/1.jpg
www.houlker.com/2.jpg

Thanks for all advice





I would expect him to make good, and I hope that the double socket is on
the ring and isn't already a spur.

Peter


Thanks for the reply, Peter.

In article ,
"-=D@n=-" writes:
Hi,

sorry to start another thread, but this is a very active group and I assume
everyone has moved on from my other thread.

I forgot to mention that the electrician that wired up my extractor,
chiseled into the wall (no problem) to run the cable into the spur and the
extractor. Am I wrong to expect him to then plaster over the cable and make
good the channel he's made in the wall?

Depends what he was asked to do.
Given the quality of his chase, you are probably quite
lucky he didn't try to do the making good afterwards ;-)

www.houlker.com/2.jpg

Nice camera shake ;-)

--
Andrew Gabriel

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
[snip]
Depends what he was asked to do.
Given the quality of his chase, you are probably quite
lucky he didn't try to do the making good afterwards ;-)


Wouldn't really matter about his plastering technique, it'll fit in with
the sad rustic feel of the wall. ;-)

www.houlker.com/2.jpg

Nice camera shake ;-)

Fantastic. Is there a way for me to check whether the double socket is on
the ring and not a spur? I have a Multimeter!

How many cables go to it ?

Harry Bloomfield wrote:
-=D@n=- wrote on 26/08/2005 :

I'm not on a witch-hunt for this guy, but I think the kitchen people are
about to try and charge me for this work, when I didn't request it in the
first place. If they do, then I'd like to be able to ask them to come back
and finish it properly.

1. The cable should have been provided with some mechanical protection,
it is against regulations to install the bare PVC in a wall without
this.

Unless it's more than 50mm deep?

"Ian Stirling" wrote in message
...
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
-=D@n=- wrote on 26/08/2005 :

I'm not on a witch-hunt for this guy, but I think the kitchen people are
about to try and charge me for this work, when I didn't request it in
the
first place. If they do, then I'd like to be able to ask them to come
back
and finish it properly.

1. The cable should have been provided with some mechanical protection,
it is against regulations to install the bare PVC in a wall without
this.

Unless it's more than 50mm deep?

Well, the cable appears to be 10mm, and less than 20mm deep into the wall.

"Colin Wilson" wrote in message
t...
Fantastic. Is there a way for me to check whether the double socket is on
the ring and not a spur? I have a Multimeter!

How many cables go to it ?

2 sets of cables coming in, one coming out (the extractor).

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
.. .
In article ,
"-=D@n=-" writes:
Hi,

sorry to start another thread, but this is a very active group and I
assume
everyone has moved on from my other thread.

I forgot to mention that the electrician that wired up my extractor,
chiseled into the wall (no problem) to run the cable into the spur and the
extractor. Am I wrong to expect him to then plaster over the cable and
make
good the channel he's made in the wall?

Depends what he was asked to do.
Given the quality of his chase, you are probably quite
lucky he didn't try to do the making good afterwards ;-)

Heheh, yeah I suppose so. I've got a plasterer coming in on Sunday to sort
that out.


www.houlker.com/2.jpg

Nice camera shake ;-)

Thanks! I've got a Pentax Optio S5i. I've had it for 6 months, and not yet
read the manual

"ben" wrote in message
. uk...
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
[snip]
Depends what he was asked to do.
Given the quality of his chase, you are probably quite
lucky he didn't try to do the making good afterwards ;-)


Wouldn't really matter about his plastering technique, it'll fit in with
the sad rustic feel of the wall. ;-)


Heheh shurrup, that's getting skimmed and plastered on Sunday.

-=D@n=- laid this down on his screen :
"Ian Stirling" wrote in message
...
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
-=D@n=- wrote on 26/08/2005 :

I'm not on a witch-hunt for this guy, but I think the kitchen people are
about to try and charge me for this work, when I didn't request it in the
first place. If they do, then I'd like to be able to ask them to come
back
and finish it properly.

1. The cable should have been provided with some mechanical protection,
it is against regulations to install the bare PVC in a wall without
this.

Unless it's more than 50mm deep?

Well, the cable appears to be 10mm, and less than 20mm deep into the wall.

Which means it requires mechanical protection.

2.5mm should be the cross sectional area of one of the copper cores,
not the overall width of the grey plastic.

I also wonder about qualification of the installer under Part P?

--

Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.org

Harry Bloomfield wrote:

1. The cable should have been provided with some mechanical protection,

Yes

it is against regulations to install the bare PVC in a wall without this.

and no.

It is ok to install PVC directly into a wall - even without mechanical
protection so long as it follows an "expected" route. This means
horizontaly or vertically aligned with a visible accessory, or within a
150mm zone beside a room corner or adjacent to the ceiling.

Since this cable does not follow the expected route (i.e. turns a corner
above the extractor), it ought to be either 50mm deep (from both sides
of the wall - so tricky in a 4" wall) or be capped.

2. From the photos it looks as if the actual cable size used is too
small. Difficult to be certain, however.... It looks like 1.5mm and
regulations require 2.5mm be used at least as far as the spur, which
needs to be of the fused type.

The "spur" is technically the run from the socket to the FCU. Since it
is unfused it should be 2.5mm^2, (1.5mm^2 for a fused spur). The FCU
needs to be fused appropriately for the cable feeding the hood.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Harry Bloomfield wrote:
2.5mm should be the cross sectional area of one of the copper cores, not
the overall width of the grey plastic.

Well mm is not a unit of area so people will get confused!

alex

In article ,
"-=D@n=-" writes:
Heheh shurrup, that's getting skimmed and plastered on Sunday.

In that case, it doesn't matter that it hasn't been mad good yet.

Strange order to do things.
Are you going to take everything off the wall, or is the
plasterer going to go round the extractor hood, sockets,
worktop, etc?

--
Andrew Gabriel

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

Strange order to do things.
Are you going to take everything off the wall, or is the
plasterer going to go round the extractor hood, sockets,
worktop, etc?


I was wondering that myself. I'm half expecting a "dodgy plasterer"
post, about how he didn't remove the cooker hood, but plastered round it...

--
Grunff

"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
...
-=D@n=- laid this down on his screen :
"Ian Stirling" wrote in message
...
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
-=D@n=- wrote on 26/08/2005 :

I'm not on a witch-hunt for this guy, but I think the kitchen people
are
about to try and charge me for this work, when I didn't request it in
the
first place. If they do, then I'd like to be able to ask them to come
back
and finish it properly.

1. The cable should have been provided with some mechanical protection,
it is against regulations to install the bare PVC in a wall without
this.

Unless it's more than 50mm deep?

Well, the cable appears to be 10mm, and less than 20mm deep into the
wall.

Which means it requires mechanical protection.

2.5mm should be the cross sectional area of one of the copper cores, not
the overall width of the grey plastic.

I also wonder about qualification of the installer under Part P?

--
A spur of an existing circuit is DIY acceptable, maybe it shouldn't be!

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 23:20:49 +0100, "Dave Jones"
wrote:


"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
...
-=D@n=- laid this down on his screen :
"Ian Stirling" wrote in message
...
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
-=D@n=- wrote on 26/08/2005 :

I'm not on a witch-hunt for this guy, but I think the kitchen people
are
about to try and charge me for this work, when I didn't request it in
the
first place. If they do, then I'd like to be able to ask them to come
back
and finish it properly.

1. The cable should have been provided with some mechanical protection,
it is against regulations to install the bare PVC in a wall without
this.

Unless it's more than 50mm deep?

Well, the cable appears to be 10mm, and less than 20mm deep into the
wall.

Which means it requires mechanical protection.

2.5mm should be the cross sectional area of one of the copper cores, not
the overall width of the grey plastic.

I also wonder about qualification of the installer under Part P?

--
A spur of an existing circuit is DIY acceptable, maybe it shouldn't be!


Except in a kitchen...


--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 22:29:06 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

Harry Bloomfield wrote:

1. The cable should have been provided with some mechanical protection,

Yes

it is against regulations to install the bare PVC in a wall without this.

and no.

It is ok to install PVC directly into a wall - even without mechanical
protection so long as it follows an "expected" route. This means
horizontaly or vertically aligned with a visible accessory, or within a
150mm zone beside a room corner or adjacent to the ceiling.

Since this cable does not follow the expected route (i.e. turns a corner
above the extractor), it ought to be either 50mm deep (from both sides
of the wall - so tricky in a 4" wall) or be capped.

Wasn't the extractor plugged into a socket (= wiring accessory) behind
the dummy chimney? The cable runs horizontally from that and
vertically from the double socket...







--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
Andrew Gabriel wrote:

Strange order to do things.
Are you going to take everything off the wall, or is the
plasterer going to go round the extractor hood, sockets,
worktop, etc?


I was wondering that myself. I'm half expecting a "dodgy plasterer" post,
about how he didn't remove the cooker hood, but plastered round it...

--
Grunff

Well if he's working on the last bank hol weekend must be desperate for
work!

"-=D@n=-" wrote in message
...
"Colin Wilson" wrote in message
t...
Fantastic. Is there a way for me to check whether the double socket is
on
the ring and not a spur? I have a Multimeter!

How many cables go to it ?

2 sets of cables coming in, one coming out (the extractor).
Taken of the ring main then.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 23:20:49 +0100, "Dave Jones"
wrote:


"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
...
-=D@n=- laid this down on his screen :
"Ian Stirling" wrote in message
...
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
-=D@n=- wrote on 26/08/2005 :

I'm not on a witch-hunt for this guy, but I think the kitchen people
are
about to try and charge me for this work, when I didn't request it
in
the
first place. If they do, then I'd like to be able to ask them to
come
back
and finish it properly.

1. The cable should have been provided with some mechanical
protection,
it is against regulations to install the bare PVC in a wall without
this.

Unless it's more than 50mm deep?

Well, the cable appears to be 10mm, and less than 20mm deep into the
wall.

Which means it requires mechanical protection.

2.5mm should be the cross sectional area of one of the copper cores, not
the overall width of the grey plastic.

I also wonder about qualification of the installer under Part P?

--
A spur of an existing circuit is DIY acceptable, maybe it shouldn't be!


Except in a kitchen...

True, forgot about that bit!

Grunff wrote in message
...
Andrew Gabriel wrote:

Strange order to do things.
Are you going to take everything off the wall, or is the
plasterer going to go round the extractor hood, sockets,
worktop, etc?


I was wondering that myself. I'm half expecting a "dodgy plasterer"
post, about how he didn't remove the cooker hood, but plastered round
it...


?
Plasterers never plaster round _Anything_
A little bump on the wall like a cooker hood shouldn't cause much of a
problem.


-

"Dave Jones" wrote in message
...

"-=D@n=-" wrote in message
...
"Colin Wilson" wrote in message
t...
Fantastic. Is there a way for me to check whether the double socket is
on
the ring and not a spur? I have a Multimeter!

How many cables go to it ?

2 sets of cables coming in, one coming out (the extractor).
Taken of the ring main then.


Ok, goodo.

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
.. .
In article ,
"-=D@n=-" writes:
Heheh shurrup, that's getting skimmed and plastered on Sunday.

In that case, it doesn't matter that it hasn't been mad good yet.

Strange order to do things.
Are you going to take everything off the wall, or is the
plasterer going to go round the extractor hood, sockets,
worktop, etc?

Sorry, my mistake. The whole section above the hob and under the hood is
being tiled

Dave Jones wrote:

How many cables go to it ?

2 sets of cables coming in, one coming out (the extractor).

Taken of the ring main then.

Or mid way along an existing spur!

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 01:08:12 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:

Wasn't the extractor plugged into a socket (= wiring accessory) behind
the dummy chimney? The cable runs horizontally from that and
vertically from the double socket...

Yup that is true, so the sparks could argue it is legit... not sure if
the socket counts as a "visible" accessory though...

In other words (getting back to the point of the rule) if you were going
to drill into the wall you might avoid directly above the double socket,
but would you also avoid horizontally aligned with the other socket if
it is hidden behind the extractor duct?


Oh sure. I didn't say that this was a good idea, but I don't think
that it explicitly breaks the regulation.


526-06-06 (applies to hidden, unprotected cables at 50mm depth)

".. be installed within 150mm of the top of the wall or partition or
within 150mm of an angle formed by two adjoining walls or partitions.
Where the cable is connected to a point, accessory or switchgear on
the wall or partition, the cable may be installed outside these zones
only in a straight run either horizontally or vertically, to the
point, accessory or switchgear."

The On-Site Guide shows an illustration of this and has a cable at an
angle (not allowed in this context) to show the point. However, it
doesn't have this example.

I suppose that it's better to do it as has been done in this case than
to go at an angle. A completely correct way from this perspective
would have been to run the cable up from each socket to the 150mm band
near the ceiling and back down again.

Personally, I always trace the cables anyway.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Dave Jones wrote:

How many cables go to it ?

2 sets of cables coming in, one coming out (the extractor).

Taken of the ring main then.

Or mid way along an existing spur!


Was just going to say that!




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

-=D@n=- wrote:


Nice camera shake ;-)

Thanks! I've got a Pentax Optio S5i. I've had it for 6 months, and not yet
read the manual

Just leave it on the 'auto' setting then.

Regards the cable, the kitchen company should fill in the chase but
that's the least of your worries when it comes to contracted fitters.

Andy Hall wrote:
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 01:08:12 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:
Andy Hall wrote:
In other words (getting back to the point of the rule) if you were going
to drill into the wall you might avoid directly above the double socket,
but would you also avoid horizontally aligned with the other socket if
it is hidden behind the extractor duct?

".. be installed within 150mm of the top of the wall or partition or
within 150mm of an angle formed by two adjoining walls or partitions.
Where the cable is connected to a point, accessory or switchgear on
the wall or partition, the cable may be installed outside these zones
only in a straight run either horizontally or vertically, to the
point, accessory or switchgear."

I suppose that it's better to do it as has been done in this case than
to go at an angle. A completely correct way from this perspective
would have been to run the cable up from each socket to the 150mm band
near the ceiling and back down again.

My interpretation is that the strait lines must run from /visible/
accessory to /visible/ accessory. So it would only be acceptable if the
angle was marked by an inspection plate or isolating switch,


--
David Clark

$message_body_include ="PLES RING IF AN RNSR IS REQIRD"

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 13:36:17 GMT, DJC
wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 01:08:12 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:
Andy Hall wrote:
In other words (getting back to the point of the rule) if you were going
to drill into the wall you might avoid directly above the double socket,
but would you also avoid horizontally aligned with the other socket if
it is hidden behind the extractor duct?

".. be installed within 150mm of the top of the wall or partition or
within 150mm of an angle formed by two adjoining walls or partitions.
Where the cable is connected to a point, accessory or switchgear on
the wall or partition, the cable may be installed outside these zones
only in a straight run either horizontally or vertically, to the
point, accessory or switchgear."

I suppose that it's better to do it as has been done in this case than
to go at an angle. A completely correct way from this perspective
would have been to run the cable up from each socket to the 150mm band
near the ceiling and back down again.

My interpretation is that the strait lines must run from /visible/
accessory to /visible/ accessory. So it would only be acceptable if the
angle was marked by an inspection plate or isolating switch,


Taking a conservative view, I'd agree with you - certainly I would not
do an installation in the way it was here. However, the standard is
unclear.....


--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Harry Bloomfield wrote:
-=D@n=- wrote on 26/08/2005 :

I'm not on a witch-hunt for this guy, but I think the kitchen people are
about to try and charge me for this work, when I didn't request it in the
first place. If they do, then I'd like to be able to ask them to come back
and finish it properly.

1. The cable should have been provided with some mechanical protection,
it is against regulations to install the bare PVC in a wall without
this.

No it isn't, it depends where the cable run goes.


--
Chris Green