On 27 Mar 2005 08:06:28 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , wmbjk says...

A clamp meter is great for some larger loads, but useless for the
small ones. First accept this fact - one weeks *idle* consumption of a
TIVO, Replay etc. is equivalent to about 2 hours of the usual home
welding. Which ought to make it plain how the little things add up.
Now think about this - it's easy to read a 1 Amp variation when
wiggling an Amp clamp. So what's the point of using that on 1/4 Amp
loads? Then there's the time factor... how do you measure say, a
dishwasher with an Amprobe? You'd have to hover over the thing with a
stopwatch taking notes as it cycles through pumping, heating etc. Even
on a fridge, are you going to take a sloppy reading with a clamp
meter, and then clock the run time over 24 hours?

You can measure 1/4 amp loads with an amp-clamp actually.
The input is a transformer. Just make the pigtail long enough
to make 10 turns through the clamp part. Now the 1/4 amp load
reads as 2.5 amps.

That's probably the easiest way on the really small loads. We have a
Wattsup, and it doesn't register below about 3 Watts IIRC. But an
ammeter of any kind is still a bad choice on variable loads like a
clothes washer or a dishwasher, or for thermostat controlled loads
like a coffee maker or refrigerator. And even on the fixed loads, he'd
need to keep a log of hours. Use logs invite the common problem of
people seriously underestimating their hours of use. And he says he's
not home a lot, which means he'd need to take the word of others on
their habits. Considering that diddling, logging, and estimating can
all be eliminated with a $30 gadget....

The amp-clamp isn't a magic bullet. But the idea is to get some
idea of what stuff draws, where the current is going. And make
sure this squares with the watt-hour meter.

He can eliminate any possibility that the main meter is a problem by
running a known load and checking the reading. He's claiming modest
use in the face of $300 bills though, so if the meter were the
problem, it would have to be out by a factor of about 4.

He already has
both these instruments.

Sure, but given his comments so far, my take is that it's best to
recommend the easiest solution. Plus, there might be others reading
who'd like to lower their costs, and getting some of them to audit
their own use is more likely if the process is as painless as
possible. Here's another link to the Kill a Watt, $28 delivered
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...59390 66&rd=1
They've been on sale at times at Radio Shack.

Wayne

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
Might want to invest in a Kill A Watt.

Other things to consider -- refrigerator, dehumidifier, sump pump. Refrig
and dehum are fairly high draw appliances. I know about the dehum, I ran
one
for a couple days after I shampoo'd the carpets. Wow, spiked current
useage.
Next time, it's gonna be a box fan.

Nice for stirring the air, but hardly the same as a dehumidifier. I own
and run three of them (small units, 48 pint variety). Wouldn't be without
them. In cool weather (all but three months here), the heat they add is an
offset to the operating cost.

Harold

On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 07:05:47 GMT, Gunner
wrote:
Ive got one of those mechanical meters with the edgewise disk that
spins.

As far as I can tell, the bill ending 3/07/05 showed 1,222 kwh with a
base line of 235 kwh., thats one month. Supposedly with the rate
sched, if Im over 300%-500% of the baseline, its at .27 per kwh.
Thats what my wife read to me tonight off an old bill of $200. Ill
check it out for myself in the morning (when I can find my reading
glasses and Im not road stunned from driving up from Santa Ana to
Taft.

I did have house guests that month...sigh..for nearly the last 8
months. Gone now...Yippeee!!

$54 in gas (gas drier and stove)

235 kwh is a base line for a family of 2 adults in a normal house?

For comparison, my last bill was for 1105 KWH. Two adults, all
heating appliances (furnace, water, drier,stove) are gas. Very
little welding last month, no airconditoning of course. We do run
the dishwasher now and then. I do put a few hours/month on 3 HP
lathe, Bridgeport, and my 5 HP air compressor cyles now and then.
We're not particularly parsimonious with electricity, but I'd say our
usage patterns are simlar though you're probably doing more welding at
the moment. (I"ll be doing some MIG today, but not a lot. )

Our bill was $88. You really are getting socked with high electric
rates. OTOH, don't ask about my gas bill for January in MN!

wmbjk wrote:

massive snip]

He can eliminate any possibility that the main meter is a problem by
running a known load and checking the reading. He's claiming modest
use in the face of $300 bills though, so if the meter were the
problem, it would have to be out by a factor of about 4.

That can happen. A neighbor's meter was only recording 20-25% of the
true usage, and it went undetected for at least four months. Since he
was on a budget plan, he just paid the usual amount when the bill came
and never looked at the actual bill. The electric company eventually
realized that the meter was broken and - with the usual arrogance of a
public utility - said essentially "we decided you owe us $xxx" and put
it on his bill. No consideration of previous year's usage, no nothin.

Tove

In article , Harold and Susan Vordos says...

Next time, it's gonna be a box fan.

Nice for stirring the air, but hardly the same as a dehumidifier. I own
and run three of them (small units, 48 pint variety). Wouldn't be without
them. In cool weather (all but three months here), the heat they add is an
offset to the operating cost.

During the transition season, yep. In my shop however, the temperature
drops so much that they won't run during the winter months. This is
how I know it's spring (I start running the dehumidifier, and it starts
running water into my sink in the shop) and likewise how I know it's
winter - the dehumidifier starts cycling on and off because the cold
coil goes below freezing.

In the wintertime the humidity in the shop's pretty low anyway.
Even when the machine is running in the cooler weather, the drain
hose doesn't produce anything in the sink.

Jim


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==================================================

In article , wmbjk says...

He can eliminate any possibility that the main meter is a problem by
running a known load and checking the reading. He's claiming modest
use in the face of $300 bills though, so if the meter were the
problem, it would have to be out by a factor of about 4.

Checking the meter's action is the very first step I would think.
As you say this means a known load (I would use incandescent lights
or a heater) and a watch.

At the same time I would switch off all the loads and check to
see that the thing stops moving.

From what I see of the rate stucture though, it *seemed* like
there was a minimum monthly charge, even if his main breaker
were pulled for the entire month. Ie, you pay a hundred
bucks just to have the wires and meter *there* even if no
current flows though them.

Jim


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==================================================

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Harold and Susan Vordos says...

Next time, it's gonna be a box fan.

Nice for stirring the air, but hardly the same as a dehumidifier. I
own
and run three of them (small units, 48 pint variety). Wouldn't be
without
them. In cool weather (all but three months here), the heat they add is
an
offset to the operating cost.

During the transition season, yep. In my shop however, the temperature
drops so much that they won't run during the winter months. This is
how I know it's spring (I start running the dehumidifier, and it starts
running water into my sink in the shop) and likewise how I know it's
winter - the dehumidifier starts cycling on and off because the cold
coil goes below freezing.

In the wintertime the humidity in the shop's pretty low anyway.
Even when the machine is running in the cooler weather, the drain
hose doesn't produce anything in the sink.

Jim


For the one unheated area (pump shed, where Susan stores the veggies she
grows in her garden) we set the stat low enough that the unit runs only
infrequently. As long as it's not below freezing, it will still produce a
little water, although as ice on the coils. When it idles, it melts.

The others run in heated areas, from which we produce a fair amount of
water. It's been very different living where 40% humidity is considered
low. It wasn't uncommon to have it under 10% in the winter when we lived
in Utah.

Harold

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , wmbjk says...

He can eliminate any possibility that the main meter is a problem by
running a known load and checking the reading. He's claiming modest
use in the face of $300 bills though, so if the meter were the
problem, it would have to be out by a factor of about 4.

Checking the meter's action is the very first step I would think.
As you say this means a known load (I would use incandescent lights
or a heater) and a watch.

At the same time I would switch off all the loads and check to
see that the thing stops moving.

From what I see of the rate stucture though, it *seemed* like
there was a minimum monthly charge, even if his main breaker
were pulled for the entire month. Ie, you pay a hundred
bucks just to have the wires and meter *there* even if no
current flows though them.

Jim

That's the type structure we have here in Western Washington where we live.
Beyond the service fee we pay .044 cents per kwh for power. I realize
what a bargain we are getting, but Shrub is doing his best to take it away
from us.

Harold

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , wmbjk says...

He can eliminate any possibility that the main meter is a problem by
running a known load and checking the reading. He's claiming modest
use in the face of $300 bills though, so if the meter were the
problem, it would have to be out by a factor of about 4.

Checking the meter's action is the very first step I would think.
As you say this means a known load (I would use incandescent lights
or a heater) and a watch.

At the same time I would switch off all the loads and check to
see that the thing stops moving.

From what I see of the rate stucture though, it *seemed* like
there was a minimum monthly charge, even if his main breaker
were pulled for the entire month. Ie, you pay a hundred
bucks just to have the wires and meter *there* even if no
current flows though them.

Jim

That's the type structure we have here in Western Washington where we
live.
Beyond the service fee we pay .044 cents per kwh for power. I realize
what a bargain we are getting, but Shrub is doing his best to take it away
from us.

Harold

I think what I mean is we pay 4.4 cents per kwh. The .044 sounds good, but
that would be a little on the cheap side. Believe it or not, until the
power shortage of a couple years ago, our rate was only 3.3 cents per kwh.
We're a publicly owned utility.

Harold

On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 00:01:09 -0800, the inscrutable "Harold and Susan
Vordos" spake:

I think what I mean is we pay 4.4 cents per kwh. The .044 sounds good, but
that would be a little on the cheap side. Believe it or not, until the
power shortage of a couple years ago, our rate was only 3.3 cents per kwh.
We're a publicly owned utility.

Oregon went from 4 to 6¢/kWh just before I moved here. I still feel
it's a good deal...coming from CA. But just like CA, I still see the
UPS lights come on at least 3 times a day, hearing the relay click in
to provide clean power to the old 'puter each time.


----------------------------------------------------
Thesaurus: Ancient reptile with excellent vocabulary
http://diversify.com Dynamic Website Applications
================================================== ==

On 27 Mar 2005 19:54:51 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

From what I see of the rate stucture though, it *seemed* like
there was a minimum monthly charge, even if his main breaker
were pulled for the entire month. Ie, you pay a hundred
bucks just to have the wires and meter *there* even if no
current flows though them.

Jim

Minimum charges are pretty common, probably nearly universal. Gunner's
was about 15 cents per day. Once he gets his use down to the
equivalent of a 40 Watt bulb 24-7, the minimum charge will become a
factor. Then he can send PG&E a nasty-gram along these lines - "I'm
only using $3.20 worth of electricity a month, yet you greedy *******s
are charging me $4.50!" :-)

Wayne

On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 18:20:01 GMT, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:


Demand meters are very rare to unknown on residential services

We had a residential Time Off Use meter in PG&E land as early as about
14 years ago. PG&E sends out reams of crap telling people about TOU
accounts, phantom loads, assistance with audits etc. If Gunner had
read that stuff instead of right-wing blogs, we might have seen a post
like this - "Thank you Gray Davis for helping me save a bunch of
money". LOL

For anyone wanting to lower their bill, here's an excellent article on
how to do a proper analysis of energy consumption
http://www.homepower.com/files/loadcalc.pdf

Gunner - take a look at the daily averages (even *before* they were
optimized) on the sample sheet. Notice that the numbers generally
represent use similar to what you've talked about, yet are 4 times
lower than your "normal" month's consumption.

Wayne

On 27 Mar 2005 19:54:51 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

From what I see of the rate stucture though, it *seemed* like
there was a minimum monthly charge, even if his main breaker
were pulled for the entire month. Ie, you pay a hundred
bucks just to have the wires and meter *there* even if no
current flows though them.

Jim

Minimum charges are pretty common, probably nearly universal. Gunner's
was about 15 cents per day. Once he gets his use down to the
equivalent of a 40 Watt bulb 24-7, the minimum charge will become a
factor. Then he can send PG&E a nasty-gram along these lines - "I'm
only using $3.20 worth of electricity a month, yet you greedy *******s
are charging me $4.50!" :-)

Wayne

"wmbjk" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 18:20:01 GMT, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:


Demand meters are very rare to unknown on residential services

We had a residential Time Off Use meter in PG&E land as early as about
14 years ago. PG&E sends out reams of crap telling people about TOU

A demand meter is not the same as a time of use meter. Bruce's comment
holds.

Tm wrote:
"wmbjk" wrote in message
...

On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 18:20:01 GMT, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:



Demand meters are very rare to unknown on residential services

We had a residential Time Off Use meter in PG&E land as early as about
14 years ago. PG&E sends out reams of crap telling people about TOU


A demand meter is not the same as a time of use meter. Bruce's comment
holds.



I hate to beat this horse to death, but demand meters ARE used in
residential services in many parts of Ohio. Allow me to quote from the
Ohio Edison rate tariff:

"Billing Load: The billing load shall be the highest kW registration of
a thermal or 30 minute integrating type meter, but not less than 5.0 kW."

Source:
http://www.firstenergycorp.com/custo...CO _No11b.pdf

This is what I call peak demand...over a 30 minute sliding window.

It sounds like things out in Cali land may be different. But I hate to
see someone say that demand metering of residential service is rare to
unknown. It isn't.....at least in these parts...but I sure wish it WAS!!

In article , wmbjk says...

Minimum charges are pretty common, probably nearly universal. Gunner's
was about 15 cents per day.

I can't find that post of his - I've looked back in the thread,
and while I remember seeing a rate structure, none of his
posts show it.

Do you recall if he put it there, or was it another poster?

Jim


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==================================================

Karl Townsend wrote:
5 KW won't run much welder. Great for lights etc. But, assuming 220
Volt,
that's only 22 amps.

Good Luck

Karl

Welder output is nowhere near 220 volts. 220-V input, much lower
voltage (and higher current) out. My 180-amp stick welder, which runs
on 220 volts, is fused at 30 amps on the 220 side and has never tripped
a breaker.

Martin

jim rozen wrote:

In article , wmbjk says...

Minimum charges are pretty common, probably nearly universal. Gunner's
was about 15 cents per day.

I can't find that post of his - I've looked back in the thread,
and while I remember seeing a rate structure, none of his
posts show it.

Do you recall if he put it there, or was it another poster?

Jim

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==================================================

It was someone else:

From:
"Steve W."

Fri 9:59 PM

Subject:
Gov Surplus Gensets questions




E-1 Residential

Total Energy Rates ($ per kWh)
Baseline Usage $0.11430
101% - 130% of Baseline $0.12989
131% - 200% of Baseline $0.17557 (R)
201% - 300% of Baseline $0.21474 |
Over 300% of Baseline $0.21474 (R)

Total Minimum Charge Rate ($ per meter per day) $0.14784

Looking at the way they calculate KWhrs YOU ARE GETTING SCREWED.

Code B - Basic Quantities
Baseline Summer Winter
Territory* Tier I Tier I
P 15.8 12.9
Q 8.5 13.0
R 17.5 12.7
S 15.8 12.8
T 8.5 10.2
V 8.7 10.4
W 18.7 11.9
X 12.2 13.0
Y 11.3 (I) 12.9
Z 7.3 11.2


If it was me I'd find a gas or diesel powered welder and use it. Don't
bother with a generator since most engine welders include one anyway.


--
Steve W.

Bruce Rahn wrote:

Tm wrote:
"wmbjk" wrote in message
...

On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 18:20:01 GMT, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:



Demand meters are very rare to unknown on residential services

We had a residential Time Off Use meter in PG&E land as early as about
14 years ago. PG&E sends out reams of crap telling people about TOU


A demand meter is not the same as a time of use meter. Bruce's comment
holds.



I hate to beat this horse to death, but demand meters ARE used in
residential services in many parts of Ohio. Allow me to quote from the
Ohio Edison rate tariff:

"Billing Load: The billing load shall be the highest kW registration of
a thermal or 30 minute integrating type meter, but not less than 5.0 kW."

Source:
http://www.firstenergycorp.com/custo...CO _No11b.pdf

This is what I call peak demand...over a 30 minute sliding window.

It sounds like things out in Cali land may be different. But I hate to
see someone say that demand metering of residential service is rare to
unknown. It isn't.....at least in these parts...but I sure wish it WAS!!

If you're stuck with peak metering then you need to do peak shaving.
Find a free for the hauling large used online UPS. Make a few
modifications and place all your loads on the UPS outputs. Let the UPS
charge at the average of your usage, while supplying your peaks from
battery and recharging during the valleys. No more peaks on the utility
side, and no power failures either.

Pete C.

On 28 Mar 2005 14:06:55 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , wmbjk says...

Minimum charges are pretty common, probably nearly universal. Gunner's
was about 15 cents per day.

I can't find that post of his - I've looked back in the thread,
and while I remember seeing a rate structure, none of his
posts show it.

Do you recall if he put it there, or was it another poster?

Jim

Steve W's post http://tinyurl.com/4oxha PG&E's info on how to read
their bills (click on links on right side of page for 3 more pages)
http://www.pge.com/res/understanding...ard/page1.html

In my experience PG&E was very cooperative about finding ways to lower
costs. We shaved hundreds per month off some commercial accounts by
changing to different rate plans. And I remember that a friend who
insisted his bill was too high got a house call and a review just by
asking for it. Yup, says right here that they still offer free surveys
http://www.pge.com/rebates/alliances...ield_kern.html Perhaps if
he whines to them a little they might waive the installation fee for a
TOU meter. Combine that with an accurate evaluation and some
discipline, and he should be able to hold his bills to $100. That's
still sort of a yuppyish consumption level for a "survivalist" :-),
but a big improvement just the same.

Gunner - read up on solar water heating systems. Used collectors are
often available free for the hauling after pool work. A good scrounger
could build an entire system for peanuts. Which would take a big bite
out of the gas bill as well.

Wayne

In article , wmbjk says...

Do you recall if he put it there, or was it another poster?

Steve W's post http://tinyurl.com/4oxha PG&E's info on how to read
their bills (click on links on right side of page for 3 more pages)
http://www.pge.com/res/understanding...ard/page1.html

Ah, OK. So it wasn't gunner's rate structure after all.

Gunner - read up on solar water heating systems.

Nice, but won't help him with his electric bill.

Jim


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On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 19:19:01 GMT, wmbjk
wrote:
On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 18:20:01 GMT, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

Demand meters are very rare to unknown on residential services

We had a residential Time Off Use meter in PG&E land as early as about
14 years ago. PG&E sends out reams of crap telling people about TOU
accounts, phantom loads, assistance with audits etc. If Gunner had
read that stuff instead of right-wing blogs, we might have seen a post
like this - "Thank you Gray Davis for helping me save a bunch of
money". LOL

Okay, I'll revise that - Demand meters as a requirement for all
residential customers are not common. For an optional program like
the Time Of Use metering you mention, they are available.

But it you head down that road, you get into overnight ice-banking
refrigeration and air conditioning and other severe conservation
methods. Unfortunately most of those things cost so much to install,
and add extra complexity and maintenance costs, that the payback takes
forever - unless you're talking large commercial buildings with a full
time maintenance staff.

-- Bruce --
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 02:39:13 GMT, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 19:19:01 GMT, wmbjk
wrote:
On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 18:20:01 GMT, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

Demand meters are very rare to unknown on residential services

We had a residential Time Off Use meter in PG&E land as early as about
14 years ago. PG&E sends out reams of crap telling people about TOU
accounts, phantom loads, assistance with audits etc. If Gunner had
read that stuff instead of right-wing blogs, we might have seen a post
like this - "Thank you Gray Davis for helping me save a bunch of
money". LOL

Okay, I'll revise that - Demand meters as a requirement for all
residential customers are not common. For an optional program like
the Time Of Use metering you mention, they are available.

But it you head down that road, you get into overnight ice-banking
refrigeration and air conditioning and other severe conservation
methods. Unfortunately most of those things cost so much to install,
and add extra complexity and maintenance costs, that the payback takes
forever - unless you're talking large commercial buildings with a full
time maintenance staff.

-- Bruce --

Bruce? I live in Taft. We didnt even have caller ID until last year.
No DSL.

And no fancy **** from PG&E

If you read the fine print...in many cases PG&E is unwilling or unable
to offer all those nifty bells and whistles things to those of us in
many small towns.

Ive called them, the PUC, etc etc...and a hell of a lot of the "cool
stuff" they offer to folks in the city, are simply not available here
in Bum****ville

They give you all sorts of bumwipe with the bills, telling you not to
run your air conditioner (dont have one) during certain hours..the
hours where its 110F here in the desert. Do your laundry at 3am.
Dont run appliences during peak hours. Hard for the wife to pull the
reefer out of the built in and unplug it. Particularly when the
cooler is off and its 110F in the house.

After ploughing through all this sort of crap, one simply tosses the
**** in the dumpster. Sort of like killfiling someone who only rarely
comes up with something interesting on a newsgroup. Someone you hate
for their business practices, their attitude and their arrogance.

I understand that in a large portion of the US, the power company now
reads the meter over carrier signals on the power line. Cool.

As a side note...Ive got one of the PG&E power failure communicators
in my water heater room. It dials PG&E over my phone line when there
is a power failure in my neigborhood. Evidently they dont have any of
those fancy bells and whistles either.

Gunner


Leftwingers are like pond scum. They are green, slimy, show up where
they are not wanted, and interfere with the fishing.

Strider

"Pete C." wrote:

If you're stuck with peak metering then you need to do peak shaving.
Find a free for the hauling large used online UPS. Make a few
modifications and place all your loads on the UPS outputs. Let the UPS
charge at the average of your usage, while supplying your peaks from
battery and recharging during the valleys. No more peaks on the utility
side, and no power failures either.

Pete C.

Installing a UPS will make NO difference, or will make worse, peak
demand charges. You need to spread out the usage of various loads to
reduce a peak charge.
jk

I missed the staff meeting but the minutes show Gunner
wrote back on Sat, 26 Mar 2005 07:26:57 GMT
in misc.survivalism :

A friend of mine just got aBuick Roadmaster. It was found out on a
very old oil lease in a blind canyon. The only surface rust on it
appears to be as a result of exposure to hydrogen sulfide.

Some bullet holes though. But he claims it will restore as easily as
his Hudson Hornet. Found up in Coalinga on a ranch.

I'd like to see a photo of this, that was grandmother's preferred car.
She lived in a suburb of LA, and when she'd buy a new one, she'd give the
old one to her daughter (my aunt.) The story goes that Aunt Dorothy was
driving the latest one back, and stopped for gas. The kid at the station
took a look and said "Lady, where did you get this car?" (I should mention,
Grandmother got them Loaded.)
Aunt Dorothy, didn't miss a beat. Immediately said "You're not going
to believe it, but I just got it from a little old lady from Pasadena."

tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich
"MTV may talk about lighting fires and killing children,
but Janet Reno actually does something about it." --Spy Magazine

I missed the staff meeting but the minutes show Gunner
wrote back on Sat, 26 Mar 2005 03:40:28 GMT
in misc.survivalism :

http://www.pge.com/tariffs/ERS.SHTML#ERS

how do I find out what a :baseline rate is..the tarrif listing above
is greek to me.

Kern County, residential. 1.5 residents (Im only home on weekends),
see other post about gas appliences, florescent bulbs..

I asked the guy down at the PG^E payment office about running a
welder, and he flat told me even a buzzbox on weekends would tend to
double my rates. My bills appear to reflect that.

From my technical expert, what happens is that the Electric company
will charge you at a higher rate for the month if your usage goes over a
certain level at any time during the month. Which, apparently, includes
the five minutes it took to weld the dohicky on the thingamabob. (Or was it
a thingamajig?)

Now I turn on a welder, run the shortest bead I can get away with,
then turn it right back off. I dont have any Power Factor caps in
the welders that I know of.
--
pyotr filipivich
"MTV may talk about lighting fires and killing children,
but Janet Reno actually does something about it." --Spy Magazine

jk wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

If you're stuck with peak metering then you need to do peak shaving.
Find a free for the hauling large used online UPS. Make a few
modifications and place all your loads on the UPS outputs. Let the UPS
charge at the average of your usage, while supplying your peaks from
battery and recharging during the valleys. No more peaks on the utility
side, and no power failures either.

Pete C.

Installing a UPS will make NO difference, or will make worse, peak
demand charges. You need to spread out the usage of various loads to
reduce a peak charge.
jk

Huh? Did you read what I said? You modify the UPS to limit it's charge
rate to your average consumption. It will not in any way increase your
peaks, it will eliminate them.

It has to be an online type UPS so that the inverter portion is 100%
duty cycle rated and the UPS has to be sized to handle your peak load.

What you are doing is storing power in the batteries during times of low
usage and then drawing the extra power from the batteries during peak
use.

Be current limiting the input section (AC-DC) you eliminate any peaks
from showing through to the utility meter, it will see the same peak
load (max charging current) regardless of what your true peak load is.

The difference between your actual usage and the charging current
represents either a surplus in which case the batteries charge, or a
deficit in which case the batteries supply the additional power to the
DC bus that the current limited input section won't.

A simpler way to think of this would be a water tank. If you were
charged for water base on peak flow rate and not gallons used you would
install a large tank and a small feed line to it from your water
utility. Say the feed line only flows 5gpm. You can quite readily draw
down the tank at a 20gpm rate if you want without it having any effect
on the utility side. The water level in the tank will drop, but once
your peak use stops and you are drawing less than 5gpm the tank will
fill again.

Look at your standard toilet tank for a small scale example. A 1/4"
supply line supplies water to a fixture that actually uses water via a
2" flush valve at a much higher rate than the 1/4" line can supply.

Pete C.

Gunner wrote:

On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 02:39:13 GMT, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 19:19:01 GMT, wmbjk
wrote:
On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 18:20:01 GMT, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

Demand meters are very rare to unknown on residential services

We had a residential Time Off Use meter in PG&E land as early as about
14 years ago. PG&E sends out reams of crap telling people about TOU
accounts, phantom loads, assistance with audits etc. If Gunner had
read that stuff instead of right-wing blogs, we might have seen a post
like this - "Thank you Gray Davis for helping me save a bunch of
money". LOL

Okay, I'll revise that - Demand meters as a requirement for all
residential customers are not common. For an optional program like
the Time Of Use metering you mention, they are available.

But it you head down that road, you get into overnight ice-banking
refrigeration and air conditioning and other severe conservation
methods. Unfortunately most of those things cost so much to install,
and add extra complexity and maintenance costs, that the payback takes
forever - unless you're talking large commercial buildings with a full
time maintenance staff.

-- Bruce --

Bruce? I live in Taft. We didnt even have caller ID until last year.
No DSL.

And no fancy **** from PG&E

If you read the fine print...in many cases PG&E is unwilling or unable
to offer all those nifty bells and whistles things to those of us in
many small towns.

Ive called them, the PUC, etc etc...and a hell of a lot of the "cool
stuff" they offer to folks in the city, are simply not available here
in Bum****ville

They give you all sorts of bumwipe with the bills, telling you not to
run your air conditioner (dont have one) during certain hours..the
hours where its 110F here in the desert. Do your laundry at 3am.
Dont run appliences during peak hours. Hard for the wife to pull the
reefer out of the built in and unplug it. Particularly when the
cooler is off and its 110F in the house.

After ploughing through all this sort of crap, one simply tosses the
**** in the dumpster. Sort of like killfiling someone who only rarely
comes up with something interesting on a newsgroup. Someone you hate
for their business practices, their attitude and their arrogance.

I understand that in a large portion of the US, the power company now
reads the meter over carrier signals on the power line. Cool.

As a side note...Ive got one of the PG&E power failure communicators
in my water heater room. It dials PG&E over my phone line when there
is a power failure in my neigborhood. Evidently they dont have any of
those fancy bells and whistles either.

Gunner

Leftwingers are like pond scum. They are green, slimy, show up where
they are not wanted, and interfere with the fishing.

Strider

I'm not sure how far the power line carrier reading actually went. I
believe in most areas it was scrapped in favor of short range RF. The
van just drives down the street and polls all the meters as they come
within range.

Pete C.

On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 03:13:58 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

And no fancy **** from PG&E

Have you called and asked about specifics? I think you'll find you're
wrong.

If you read the fine print...in many cases PG&E is unwilling or unable
to offer all those nifty bells and whistles things to those of us in
many small towns.

Got an example of that fine print? Let's see it. In the meantime, here
http://www.pge.com/tariffs/pdf/E-7.pdf Look at what it says after
"Territory". Regardless, TOU is just one way to cut costs.

Ive called them, the PUC, etc etc...and a hell of a lot of the "cool
stuff" they offer to folks in the city, are simply not available here
in Bum****ville

What *exactly* have they refused you that's available to city folk?
Why would you call the PUC? Who is "etc etc", and why would you call
them?

Focus.... look here http://www.homepower.com/files/loadcalc.pdf (4th
page in). 5 hours of TV, 8 hours computer, 1 load of washing per day,
and all the other normal stuff. Doesn't sound like too much skimping,
and amounts to 8kWhrs per day, about what your baseline is. So
*exactly* how do you explain using perhaps 5 times that much some
months?

They give you all sorts of bumwipe with the bills, telling you not to
run your air conditioner (dont have one) during certain hours..the
hours where its 110F here in the desert. Do your laundry at 3am.

If TOU isn't available in your area, then why would they advise you to
change your use times? Here's a clue - if you don't have a TOU meter,
then they don't have any way to know what time of day your energy is
used. Besides, peak hours are from noon to six weekdays, so the 3am
laundry thing is transparent malarkey.

Dont run appliences during peak hours. Hard for the wife to pull the
reefer out of the built in and unplug it. Particularly when the
cooler is off and its 110F in the house.

That's why you should do a proper analysis first, to help make
intelligent decisions about which loads to shift, and which to can.
Once you learn the difference between the consumption of a coffee
maker and a coffee grinder, then you won't have to make up silly
excuses about the need for refrigerator schlepping.

After ploughing through all this sort of crap, one simply tosses the
**** in the dumpster.

Fourteen years ago in CA I read in some of that crap that I could
reduce my electric bill. If I was still there, the savings might have
amounted to perhaps $3500 (plus interest) by now. It would be more in
your case. So you might consider adopting a "better late than never"
attitude.

Wayne

On 28 Mar 2005 17:53:23 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

Ah, OK. So it wasn't gunner's rate structure after all.

I'm not sure about that, but most of the residential rates are similar
anyway. Here http://www.pge.com/tariffs/electric.shtml#RESELEC Click
on the top link, highest minimum charge is $12 a month for a seasonal
plan.

Gunner - read up on solar water heating systems.

Nice, but won't help him with his electric bill.

True. So he might as well ignore that advice as well then. :-)

Wayne

wmbjk wrote:

On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 03:13:58 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

And no fancy **** from PG&E

Have you called and asked about specifics? I think you'll find you're
wrong.

If you read the fine print...in many cases PG&E is unwilling or unable
to offer all those nifty bells and whistles things to those of us in
many small towns.

Got an example of that fine print? Let's see it. In the meantime, here
http://www.pge.com/tariffs/pdf/E-7.pdf Look at what it says after
"Territory". Regardless, TOU is just one way to cut costs.

Ive called them, the PUC, etc etc...and a hell of a lot of the "cool
stuff" they offer to folks in the city, are simply not available here
in Bum****ville

What *exactly* have they refused you that's available to city folk?
Why would you call the PUC? Who is "etc etc", and why would you call
them?

Focus.... look here http://www.homepower.com/files/loadcalc.pdf (4th
page in). 5 hours of TV, 8 hours computer, 1 load of washing per day,
and all the other normal stuff. Doesn't sound like too much skimping,
and amounts to 8kWhrs per day, about what your baseline is. So
*exactly* how do you explain using perhaps 5 times that much some
months?

A weekends worth of detailed analysis with a notepad, amp probe, watch
and a known load will clarify all of the actual usage questions. If I
was nearby, I'd offer to help.


They give you all sorts of bumwipe with the bills, telling you not to
run your air conditioner (dont have one) during certain hours..the
hours where its 110F here in the desert. Do your laundry at 3am.

If TOU isn't available in your area, then why would they advise you to
change your use times? Here's a clue - if you don't have a TOU meter,
then they don't have any way to know what time of day your energy is
used. Besides, peak hours are from noon to six weekdays, so the 3am
laundry thing is transparent malarkey.

The advise everybody to change their use times for their own (Utility)
benefit. They want customers to peak shave so they (Utility) do not have
to spin up less efficient "peaking" generating units.


Dont run appliences during peak hours. Hard for the wife to pull the
reefer out of the built in and unplug it. Particularly when the
cooler is off and its 110F in the house.

That's why you should do a proper analysis first, to help make
intelligent decisions about which loads to shift, and which to can.
Once you learn the difference between the consumption of a coffee
maker and a coffee grinder, then you won't have to make up silly
excuses about the need for refrigerator schlepping.

Real analysis should confirm where the power is really going, and even
if it is at all. Meters do go out of calibration at times.


After ploughing through all this sort of crap, one simply tosses the
**** in the dumpster.

Fourteen years ago in CA I read in some of that crap that I could
reduce my electric bill. If I was still there, the savings might have
amounted to perhaps $3500 (plus interest) by now. It would be more in
your case. So you might consider adopting a "better late than never"
attitude.

Wayne

From what he's indicated it doesn't sound like there is a lot left for
him to trim on the electric side. He may or may not be able to make
things more efficient on the gas side though.

He already indicated 1 PC 24x7 which should be about 5kwh/day without
monitor, refrigerator another couple kwh/day if it's only 5 yrs old.
Some CF lighting, perhaps another 2kwh/day. That's somewhere around
270kwh/mo so far.

A washing machine will add some kwh and a gas dryer still has a motor.
No well pump so no electricity there. A gas furnace still has burner
and/or blower motors so a bit there during heating season and of course
AC in the cooling season.

Other than digging himself a cave or putting a lot of effort into some
solar projects I don't see much he can trim. About the only thing is the
computer, and there I'd recommend finding a laptop to use as the 24x7
machine which should cut the power use in half or about 75kwh/mo.

Pete C.

On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:18:56 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:


From what he's indicated it doesn't sound like there is a lot left for
him to trim on the electric side.

I agreed with almost everything in your post, but... he said his bills
are from $150 to $300. That tale of skimping would draw some guffaws
over at alt.energy.homepower. ;-) Napkin calculation - from perhaps
1200 to 1500kWhrs per month. Methinks there's gotta' be something in
there to trim...

He may or may not be able to make
things more efficient on the gas side though.

He's in a good area for solar water heating, and that's easily doable
for a scrounger/builder. That would cut his water heating bill 80% if
he needs yuppie level hot-water availability, or 100% if he can
"survive" occasionally with lukewarm water.

He already indicated 1 PC 24x7 which should be about 5kwh/day without
monitor, refrigerator another couple kwh/day if it's only 5 yrs old.
Some CF lighting, perhaps another 2kwh/day.

5 should be plenty for the PC even including a CRT. Perhaps as much as
4 for a thin-walled fridge on hot summer days. 6 if it has coils
infested with dust bunnies. :-) Figure 5 CFs at 12W each for 5 hours
- 300Whrs. (still loads more lighting than we use)

That's somewhere around
270kwh/mo so far.

Definitely plenty close enough for general discussion from afar.

A washing machine will add some kwh and a gas dryer still has a motor.
No well pump so no electricity there. A gas furnace still has burner
and/or blower motors so a bit there during heating season and of course
AC in the cooling season.

Other than digging himself a cave or putting a lot of effort into some
solar projects I don't see much he can trim. About the only thing is the
computer, and there I'd recommend finding a laptop to use as the 24x7
machine which should cut the power use in half or about 75kwh/mo.

Something big, or more likely a lot of somethings small, is missing
from his explanation. A home with 2 part-time occupants, gas
appliances, no AC, swamp cooler off, and (claimed) thrifty owners
shouldn't be able to run up a $300 bill, even in California. Although
it sure doesn't take much if that owner isn't quite as aware as he
thinks. Figure he's failed to account for a few loads, which could
easily put him into the higher brackets. Now, add to that somebody
feeling chilled this last rainy and cold Southwest winter, who felt
the need for one of those itty bitty cube-sized space heaters nearby
for 10 hours a day, and there goes $90 for that one "tiny" indulgence.

Wayne

"Pete C." wrote:



Huh? Did you read what I said?

Yes

You modify the UPS to limit it's charge
rate to your average consumption. It will not in any way increase your
peaks, it will eliminate them.

Unless 1:your charge period, exceeds 1 or more demand periods, or 2:
You DONT charge until a low usage period, you will get no benefit.

TYpically a UPS has the capability to support its load with no
charging, for 5-30 min. The charging current & kva have a high peak
value when starting a charge, and could easily make your peak charges
much worse, especially if you run out of charge during what is still
your peak period.



It has to be an online type UPS so that the inverter portion is 100%
duty cycle rated and the UPS has to be sized to handle your peak load.

What you are doing is storing power in the batteries during times of low
usage and then drawing the extra power from the batteries during peak
use.

Be current limiting the input section (AC-DC) you eliminate any peaks
from showing through to the utility meter, it will see the same peak
load (max charging current) regardless of what your true peak load is.

To do that your battery system would have to be SO over sized as to be
beyond all belief. Unless of course, you are willing to live with
periods of no power, and if that was OK you could just shut things off
in the first place.



The difference between your actual usage and the charging current
represents either a surplus in which case the batteries charge, or a
deficit in which case the batteries supply the additional power to the
DC bus that the current limited input section won't.

A simpler way to think of this would be a water tank. If you were
charged for water base on peak flow rate and not gallons used you would
install a large tank and a small feed line to it from your water
utility. Say the feed line only flows 5gpm. You can quite readily draw
down the tank at a 20gpm rate if you want without it having any effect
on the utility side. The water level in the tank will drop, but once
your peak use stops and you are drawing less than 5gpm the tank will
fill again.

A better analogy would be a 20 gal tank feeding at 5 gal per min, and
then wanting to take a 10 gal per min shower, while some one flushes
the toilet.

jk

jk wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:


Huh? Did you read what I said?

Yes

You modify the UPS to limit it's charge
rate to your average consumption. It will not in any way increase your
peaks, it will eliminate them.

Unless 1:your charge period, exceeds 1 or more demand periods, or 2:
You DONT charge until a low usage period, you will get no benefit.

TYpically a UPS has the capability to support its load with no
charging, for 5-30 min. The charging current & kva have a high peak
value when starting a charge, and could easily make your peak charges
much worse, especially if you run out of charge during what is still
your peak period.

You are missing the point that you are limiting the input current to
your average load, and you are not normally operating exclusively from
battery, hence the requirement for an online type UPS.

There is no way you can make your peak charges worse if you have current
limited the UPS front end. That is physically impossible.

Remember, I did not say anything about time-of-use rates, I said peak
metering which is an entirely different thing.



It has to be an online type UPS so that the inverter portion is 100%
duty cycle rated and the UPS has to be sized to handle your peak load.

What you are doing is storing power in the batteries during times of low
usage and then drawing the extra power from the batteries during peak
use.

Be current limiting the input section (AC-DC) you eliminate any peaks
from showing through to the utility meter, it will see the same peak
load (max charging current) regardless of what your true peak load is.

To do that your battery system would have to be SO over sized as to be
beyond all belief. Unless of course, you are willing to live with
periods of no power, and if that was OK you could just shut things off
in the first place.

Again you are thinking of time-of-use rates, not peak metering. What you
are doing with the modified UPS is peak shaving, not time shifting.

Your input power may be limited to say 4kw (arbitrary number, you'd do
some analysis to find a real number). Your baseline load of refrigerator
and lights is using say 2kw of that. You turn on a couple burners on the
stove and your load goes to 4.5kw. Your utility feed still supplies 4kw
and the batts supply the other .5kw. When you turn off the burners the
batteries get to charge again.

The best UPSes for this application are older large online UPSes from
large computer rooms. They are often available for next to nothing.
Remember that if the UPS was designed to supply 30kw for 10min, it will
also happily supply 3kw for 90min. When you factor in that you will
still be providing a baseline current to the DC bus from the utility it
will work just fine.

Granted this is a lot of work, but if you are forced to deal with peak
metering it's the only way to counter it.



The difference between your actual usage and the charging current
represents either a surplus in which case the batteries charge, or a
deficit in which case the batteries supply the additional power to the
DC bus that the current limited input section won't.

A simpler way to think of this would be a water tank. If you were
charged for water base on peak flow rate and not gallons used you would
install a large tank and a small feed line to it from your water
utility. Say the feed line only flows 5gpm. You can quite readily draw
down the tank at a 20gpm rate if you want without it having any effect
on the utility side. The water level in the tank will drop, but once
your peak use stops and you are drawing less than 5gpm the tank will
fill again.

A better analogy would be a 20 gal tank feeding at 5 gal per min, and
then wanting to take a 10 gal per min shower, while some one flushes
the toilet.

jk

Incorrect analogy since the tank is more like 200gal and you are
constantly filling at 5gpm (unless full). Your shower uses perhaps
100gal (long shower, 10min) and the toilet 1.6gal (it is low consumption
isn't it?). The utility supplies half of the shower requirement over the
10min, so your draw down is 51.6ga, leaving a 149.4gal reserve. The tank
will be full again in less than 11min after the shower ends, and you
have taken what would have been about a 11.6gpm peak and held it at
5gpm.

Pete C.

On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 15:05:27 GMT, wmbjk
wrote:


Focus.... look here http://www.homepower.com/files/loadcalc.pdf (4th
page in). 5 hours of TV, 8 hours computer, 1 load of washing per day,
and all the other normal stuff. Doesn't sound like too much skimping,
and amounts to 8kWhrs per day, about what your baseline is. So
*exactly* how do you explain using perhaps 5 times that much some
months?


No idea. And Im going to find out. I rather suspect my wife has NOT
taken up welding, or heating the house with multiple electric fry
pans. I dont think we even have any.

Gunner


Lathe Dementia. Recognized as one of the major sub-strains of the
all-consuming virus, Packratitis. Usual symptoms easily recognized
and normally is contracted for life. Can be very contagious.
michael

On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:38:09 GMT, wmbjk
wrote:


Something big, or more likely a lot of somethings small, is missing
from his explanation. A home with 2 part-time occupants, gas
appliances, no AC, swamp cooler off, and (claimed) thrifty owners
shouldn't be able to run up a $300 bill, even in California. Although
it sure doesn't take much if that owner isn't quite as aware as he
thinks. Figure he's failed to account for a few loads, which could
easily put him into the higher brackets. Now, add to that somebody
feeling chilled this last rainy and cold Southwest winter, who felt
the need for one of those itty bitty cube-sized space heaters nearby
for 10 hours a day, and there goes $90 for that one "tiny" indulgence.

Wayne

Dont own any space heaters. Nor do I need any with a nice fast
heating central gas fired heater.

Gunner


Lathe Dementia. Recognized as one of the major sub-strains of the
all-consuming virus, Packratitis. Usual symptoms easily recognized
and normally is contracted for life. Can be very contagious.
michael

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 08:03:38 GMT, Gunner
wrote:


No idea. And Im going to find out. I rather suspect my wife has NOT
taken up welding, or heating the house with multiple electric fry
pans. I dont think we even have any.

Some tips on tracking down waste here
http://www.homepower.com/files/phantom.pdf

It's worth the effort even for those who have cheap energy available.
The article above estimates that the US's waste for phantom loads
alone could power Greece, Peru, and Vietnam. The article is a bit out
of date. I expect that the situation is even worse now with the last
decade's proliferation of such things as battery chargers, plug-in
scent dispensers, satellite TV receivers, and DVRs.

Wayne

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:18:51 GMT, wmbjk
wrote:

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 08:03:38 GMT, Gunner
wrote:


No idea. And Im going to find out. I rather suspect my wife has NOT
taken up welding, or heating the house with multiple electric fry
pans. I dont think we even have any.

Some tips on tracking down waste here
http://www.homepower.com/files/phantom.pdf

It's worth the effort even for those who have cheap energy available.
The article above estimates that the US's waste for phantom loads
alone could power Greece, Peru, and Vietnam. The article is a bit out
of date. I expect that the situation is even worse now with the last
decade's proliferation of such things as battery chargers, plug-in
scent dispensers, satellite TV receivers, and DVRs.

Wayne

Thanks for the link.

Gunner


Lathe Dementia. Recognized as one of the major sub-strains of the
all-consuming virus, Packratitis. Usual symptoms easily recognized
and normally is contracted for life. Can be very contagious.
michael

On 30 Mar 2005 16:47:48 GMT, Ignoramus19234
wrote:

I am wondering Gunner, are you going to bid on these gensets?

i
I dont know yet. Ive got to talk to my backer

Gunner


Lathe Dementia. Recognized as one of the major sub-strains of the
all-consuming virus, Packratitis. Usual symptoms easily recognized
and normally is contracted for life. Can be very contagious.
michael

Gunner wrote:
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:38:09 GMT, wmbjk
wrote:


Something big, or more likely a lot of somethings small, is missing
from his explanation. A home with 2 part-time occupants, gas
appliances, no AC, swamp cooler off, and (claimed) thrifty owners
shouldn't be able to run up a $300 bill, even in California. Although
it sure doesn't take much if that owner isn't quite as aware as he
thinks. Figure he's failed to account for a few loads, which could
easily put him into the higher brackets. Now, add to that somebody
feeling chilled this last rainy and cold Southwest winter, who felt
the need for one of those itty bitty cube-sized space heaters nearby
for 10 hours a day, and there goes $90 for that one "tiny"
indulgence.

Wayne

Dont own any space heaters. Nor do I need any with a nice fast
heating central gas fired heater.

Gunner

Some time ago I had a whacking great power bill that I knew was wrong. The
power company suggested various ways to explain - mostly my fault.
I suggested that the meter was up-it's-ass and demanded it be tested. They
told me that if it was removed for testing and found ok I would have to pay
for said testing (not a small amount).
One day some short time later I returned home from work to find a new meter
installed and the following bill was a huge credit note.
Something to think about if an inventory of use fails to acount for your
unusually high bill given your situation.
Ken.

--
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