On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 05:15:45 GMT, the inscrutable Gunner
spake:

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 07:15:54 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:


The Democrats and the Democratic Party are akin to the Titanic.

So are the Repugnicans.

Republican registrations are up, the Hispanic and Black voters are
registering as Republicans, Republicans are in the majority in
Congress for the first time in well over 50 yrs (since the 104ty

The people in office now as "Republicans" in NO WAY resemble any
of the fine people I proudly voted for, starting when I turned 18.
No Republican in office today (that I'm aware of) supports any of
the platform I grew up with and embraced. That's why I bailed from
the party I had always been registered with and usually voted with.

Democratic registrations are up, too. As are Libertarian, Peace and
Freedom, Green, and Constitution Party registrations. That's known
as "population growth." And the fact that both the Executive and
Legislative branches of the US are republican-led scares the ****
out of thinking people. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, remember?


Congress) the nation itself is becoming conservative...

Hardly seems like a sinking ship .

The apparent look of conservatism is but one side effect of what's
happening to our country as the "leaders" turn more belligerent.


Unfortunately, our great country is headed that way. Got nose plugs?

Your opinon...and your denial is noted and laughed at.

I spotted the trend while you're the one in denial about this, Gunner.
Some day you'll wake up and it may be too late...if it isn't already.


--------------------------------------------
Proud (occasional) maker of Hungarian Paper Towels.
http://www.diversify.com Comprehensive Website Design
================================================== ====

On 7 Feb 2005 05:03:14 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Ayup..history is somehow overlooked when you hate Bush.

Ah, amnesia. It gets forgotten when you embrace him too.
All the bush-huggers seem to have forgotten about a place
in southeast asia where we spend a little time, a few
dollars, and a few american lives.

We're doing the same thing in the middle east.
But we're *happy* about it because we forgot what
a 20 year war does.

Jim

Are you referring to a war that first involved the US in 1941, by a
Democrat President (Truman), then escalated by another Democrat
President, (Kennedy), seriously escalated by another Democrat
President (LBJ), was spun and twisted by Democrat media that showed
every US victory to be a US loss, turned over the the now nearly
victorious South Vietnamese, and withdrawn from by a Republican
President (Nixon), then was defunded and ultimately lost because of
Democrat Congress critters?

That war?

Gunner



" We have all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million
typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of
Shakespeare...Thanks to AOL and WebTv, we know this is not possible."

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 22:47:41 -0800, The Independent of Clackamas
County wrote:

There wouldn't have been a missile Crisis. The Marines would have
invaded hung Castro and taken over the island before Kruschev got out of
bed. The Russians wouldn't have done a dammed thing about it, as the

The who?

later admitted.

And this claim was known, proven & supported exactly how
*at the time*?

If it was untrue, what then?

Which "Russians" *now* claim this? In retrospect?

If it was untrue, what then?

Your stupidity only goes to show the sad state of affairs of American
education.

If it was untrue, what then?

To bad your too old for the NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND program.

If it was untrue, what then?

That being said, maybe you can go back to all your schools and get your
money back as you certainly are a inferior and much flawed product.

That was the USSR, not Russia.

Want to try for a few more idiot winger claims?

Why is it that the first thing you always want to do is to kill
people? And get as many killed as possible?

Main Entry: dun·der·head
Pronunciation: 'd&n-d&r-"hed
Function: noun
Etymology: perhaps from Dutch donder thunder + English head; akin to
Old High German thonar thunder —more at THUNDER
Date: circa 1625
: DUNCE, BLOCKHEAD
- dun·der·head·ed /"d&n-d&r-'he-d&d/ adjective

HTH
--
Cliff

On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 08:57:37 -0800, "Dan" wrote:

"Gunner" wrote

Ayup..history is somehow overlooked when you hate Clinton. And the sad
part of it is...every other mealy mouthed rightwing extremist goes
stupid suddenly when they read whatever dreck it is that supports
their bias, hate and agenda. Its like they were suddenly given a big
hit off a crack pipe. Eyes glaze over, pupils dilate, they start
foaming at the mouth and however many few brain cells they might have
all start chanting the same mantra of utter stupidity.

Cowardly Runner never could get it right. I've corrected the important
errors.

Thanks,
I was VERY tempted myself.

BTW, Why aren't ostriches an endangered species?
How can they even reproduce with their heads stuck there?

Are they an argument against evolution and proof of stupid
deities?
--
Cliff

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 09:16:49 -0800, Tom wrote:

Gunner wrote:

On 7 Feb 2005 05:03:14 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Ayup..history is somehow overlooked when you hate Bush.

Ah, amnesia. It gets forgotten when you embrace him too.
All the bush-huggers seem to have forgotten about a place
in southeast asia where we spend a little time, a few
dollars, and a few american lives.

We're doing the same thing in the middle east.
But we're *happy* about it because we forgot what
a 20 year war does.

Jim

Are you referring to a war that first involved the US in 1941, by a
Democrat President (Truman), then escalated by another Democrat
President, (Kennedy), seriously escalated by another Democrat
President (LBJ), was spun and twisted by Democrat media that showed
every US victory to be a US loss, turned over the the now nearly
victorious South Vietnamese, and withdrawn from by a Republican
President (Nixon), then was defunded and ultimately lost because of
Democrat Congress critters?

That war?

Gunner

Truman? Did you ever go to school? LOL

Tom

Actually Tom, apparently unlike you..I did. I even went to Vietnam

http://www.fsmitha.com/h2/ch26.htm

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/vietnam...-noframes.html

1945
First American Dies in Vietnam
Lt. Col. A. Peter Dewey, head of American OSS mission, was killed by
Vietminh troops while driving a jeep to the airport. Reports later
indicated that his death was due to a case of mistaken identity -- he
had been mistaken for a Frenchman.

Care to offer up an apology?

I didnt think so.

Gunner



" We have all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million
typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of
Shakespeare...Thanks to AOL and WebTv, we know this is not possible."

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 10:41:09 -0800, Tom wrote:

Gunner wrote:

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 09:16:49 -0800, Tom wrote:

Gunner wrote:

On 7 Feb 2005 05:03:14 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Ayup..history is somehow overlooked when you hate Bush.

Ah, amnesia. It gets forgotten when you embrace him too.
All the bush-huggers seem to have forgotten about a place
in southeast asia where we spend a little time, a few
dollars, and a few american lives.

We're doing the same thing in the middle east.
But we're *happy* about it because we forgot what
a 20 year war does.

Jim

Are you referring to a war that first involved the US in 1941, by a
Democrat President (Truman), then escalated by another Democrat
President, (Kennedy), seriously escalated by another Democrat
President (LBJ), was spun and twisted by Democrat media that showed
every US victory to be a US loss, turned over the the now nearly
victorious South Vietnamese, and withdrawn from by a Republican
President (Nixon), then was defunded and ultimately lost because of
Democrat Congress critters?

That war?

Gunner

Truman? Did you ever go to school? LOL

Tom

Actually Tom, apparently unlike you..I did. Extraneous crap cut...
.............
Gunner

Perhaps then you would like to cite the school text that
states Truman was president in 1941?

I didn't think so..

Tom

Mea culpa. I should have mentioned that Rosevelt started an oil
boycott against the Japanese in 1941, (Pre-Pearl Harbor) but it was
Truman that involved the military..

You are aware that the US got most of its rubber from Vietnam up to
that point?

A timeline....

September, 1940
Japanese troops occupy Indochina, but allow the French to continue
their colonial adminstration of the area. Japan's move into southern
part of Vietnam in July 1941 sparks an oil boycott by the U.S. and
Great Britain. The resulting oil shortage strengthens Japan's desire
to risk war against the U.S. and Britain.

1945
An OSS (Office of Strategic Services, forerunner of the CIA) team
parachutes into Ho Chi Minh's jungle camp in northern Vietnam and
saves Ho Chi Minh who is ill with malaria and other tropical diseases.

August, 1945
Japan surrenders. Ho Chi Minh establishes the Viet Minh, a guerilla
army. Bao Dai abdicates after a general uprising led by the Viet Minh.

September, 1945
Seven OSS officers, led by Lieutenant Colonel A. Peter Dewey, land in
Saigon to liberate Allied war prisoners, search for missing Americans,
and gather intelligence.

September 2, 1945
Ho Chi Minh reads Vietnam's Declaration of Independence to end 80
years of colonialism under French rule and establish the Democratic
Republic of Vietnam in Hanoi. Vietnam is divided north and south.

September 26, 1945
OSS Lieutenant Dewey killed in Saigon, the first American to be killed
in Vietnam. French and Vietminh spokesmen blame each other for his
death.

November, 1946
Ho Chi Minh attempts to negotiate the end of colonial rule with the
French without success. The French army shells Haiphong harbor in
November, killing over 6,000 Vietnamese civilians, and, by December,
open war between France and the Viet Minh begins.

Return to Top

1950
The U.S., recognizing Boa Dai's regime as legitimate, begins to
subsidize the French in Vietnam; the Chinese Communists, having won
their civil war in 1949, begin to supply weapons to the Viet Minh.

August 3, 1950
A U.S. Military Assistance Advisory Group (MAAG) of 35 men arrives in
Saigon. By the end of the year, the U.S. is bearing half of the cost
of France's war effort in Vietnam.

May 7, 1954
The French are defeated at Dien Bien Phu. General Vo Nguyen Giap
commands the Viet Minh forces. France is forced to withdraw. The
French-indochina War ends. See also:

Dien Bien Phu: A Vietnamese Perspective
Dien Bien Phu: A Website of the Battle

June, 1954
The CIA establishes a military mission in Saigon. Bao Dai selects Ngo
Dinh Diem as prime minster of his government.

July 20, 1954
The Geneva Conference on Indochina declares a demilitarized zone at
the 17th parallel with the North under Communist rule and the South
under the leadership of Prime Minister Ngo Dinh Diem.

October 24, 1954
President Dwight D. Eisenhower pledges support to Diem's government
and military forces.

1955
The U.S.-backed Ngo Dinh Diem organizes the Republic of Vietnam as an
independent nation; declares himself president.

1956
Fighting begins between the North and the South.

July 8, 1959
The first American combat deaths in Vietnam occur when Viet Cong
attack Bien Hoa billets; two servicemen are killed.

Return to Top

1960
The National Liberation Front (NLF)--called the Viet Cong--is founded
in South Vietnam.

February, 1961
The U.S. military buildup in Vietnam begins with combat advisors.
President John F. Kennedy declares that they will respond if fired
upon.

June 16, 1963
A Buddhist monk immolates himself in Saigon. Buddhist demonstrations
occurred from May through August.

June 20, 1964
General William Westmoreland succeeds General Paul Harkins as head of
the U.S. forces (MACV) in Vietnam.

November 1, 1963
South Vietnamese President Ngo Dinh Diem is assassinated.

May 4, 1964
Trade embargo imposed on North Vietnam in response to attacks from the
North on South Vietnam.

August 2 and 4, 1964
The Gulf of Tonkin Incident. North Vietnamese torpedo boats attacked
the U.S. destroyer Maddox in the Gulf of Tonkin. A second attack
allegedly occurs on August 4.

August 5, 1964
President Lyndon Johnson asks Congress for a resolution against North
Vietnam following the Gulf of Tonkin incident. Congress debates.

August 7, 1964
Congress approves the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution which allows the
president to take any necessary measures to repel further attacks and
to provide military assistance to any South Asia Treaty Organization
(SEATO) member. Senators Wayne L. Morse of Oregon and Ernest Gruening
of Alaska cast the only dissenting votes. President Johnson orders the
bombing of North Vietnam. For additional information, see New Light on
Gulf of Tonkin, McNamara Asks Giap, "What Happened at Tonkin Gulf?",
and 30-Year Anniversary: Tonkin Gulf Lie Launched the Vietnam War.

March 8-9, 1965
The first American combat troops arrive in Vietnam.

April 6-8, 1965
President Johnson authorizes the use of U.S. ground combat troops for
offensive operations. The next day he offers North Vietnam aid in
exchange for peace. North Vietnam rejects the offer.

April 17, 1965
Students for a Democratic Society sponsor the first major anti-war
rally in Washington, D.C.

June, 1965
Generals Nguyen Cao Ky and Nguyen Van Thieu seize the South Vietnamese
government.

October 15-16, 1965
Anti-war protests are held in about 40 American cities.

November 14-16, 1965
The first major military engagement occurs between U.S. and North
Vietnamese forces.

September, 1967
Thieu is elected president of South Vietnam.

Oct. 21-23, 1967
50,000 people demonstrate against the war in Washington, D.C.

January 21, 1968
The battle of Khe Sanh begins, ending six months later.

January 31, 1968
The Tet Offensive. Communist forces launch attacks on Hue´ and 31
other South Vietnamese provincial capitals and military bases. One
assault team gets inside the walls of the U.S. embassy in Saigon but
is driven back.

American Perspective
Vietnamese Perspective

March 16, 1968
150 unarmed Vietnamese civilians are killed by members of U.S. Army
Lt. William L. Calley Jr.'s platoon at My Lai.

March 22, 1968
President Lyndon Johnson names General William Westmoreland as Army
Chief of Staff. He was replaced in Vietnam by General Creighton W.
Abrams .


May 10, 1968
The Paris peace talks begin between U. S. and Vietnamese officials.

May 10-20, 1969
The battle for Hamburger Hill

June 8, 1969
President Richard Nixon announces the first troop withdrawals from
South Vietnam

September 3, 1969
Ho Chi Minh dies.

November 15, 1969
250,000 people demonstrate against the war in Washington, D.C.

December 1, 1969
The first draft lottery since 1942 begins.

Return to Top



March 10, 1970
Captain Ernest Medina charged with murder for the murders at My Lai.
Events leading up the the My Lai Courts-Martial begin, ending with the
conviction of Lieutenant William Calley on March 29, 1970.

April 30, 1970
The armies of the U.S. and South Vietnam invade Cambodia to roust
North Vietnamese troops. The invasion sparks campus protests.

May 4, 1970
Four students are killed by National Guardsmen at Kent State
University in Ohio. The killings sparked hundreds of protest
activities across college campuses in the United States. Some
protesters, like those at the University of New Mexico, were met with
violence. See: The United Sates Anti-War Movement and the Vietnam War
and New Mexico State Police Association.

May 6, 1970
More than 100 colleges are closed due to student riots over he
invasion of Cambodia.

February, 1971
South Vietnam and the U.S. invade Laos in an attempt to sever the Ho
Chi Minh Trail.

December 18, 1972
Christmas bombing of Hanoi and North Vietnam begins.

December 24, 1972
1972 Bob Hope gives his last show to U.S. servicemen in Saigon. It was
his 9th consecutive Christmas show in Vietnam. President Nixon
suspends Operation Linebacker II for 36 hours to mark the Christmas
holiday.

December 28, 1972
Tthe North Vietnamese announced that they will return to Paris if
Nixon ends the bombing. The bombing campaign was halted and the
negotiators met during the first week of January, 1973.

January 23, 1973
United States, South Vietnam, and North Vietnam sign Paris Peace
Accords, ending American combat role in war. U.S. military draft ends.
A cease-fire goes into effect 5 days later.

March 29, 1973
Last U.S. combat troops leave Vietnam.

February 12-27, 1973
POWs begin to come home as part of Operation Homecoming

April 1, 1973
Hanoi releases last 591 acknowledged American POWs.

September 16, 1974
President Gerald Ford offers clemency to draft evaders and military
deserters.

April 21, 1975
South Vietnamese President Thieu resigns.

April 29-30, 1975
Saigon falls. U. S. Navy evacuates U.S. personnel and South Vietnamese
refugees. The last American combat death in Vietnam occurs. South
Vietnamese President Duong Van Minh surrenders.

American Perspective
Vietnamese Perspective

April 30, 1975
North Vietnamese forces take over Saigon; South Vietnam surrenders to
North Vietnam, ending the war and reunifying the country under
communist control, forming the Independent Socialist Republic of
Vietnam. Washington extends embargo to all of Vietnam.

May 12, 1975
The U.S. merchant ship Mayaguez is seized by the Khmer Rouge in
international waters in the Gulf of Siam. The ship, owned by Sea-Land
Corporation, was en route to Sattahip, Thailand, from Hong-Kong,
carrying a non-arms cargo for military bases in Thailand.

December, 1978
Vietnam invades Cambodia and topples Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge government,
ending its reign of terror.

1979
Western European countries and non-communist Asian nations support
U.S.-led embargo against Vietnam, in protest against invasion of
Cambodia.

Return to Top

February, 1982
Vietnam agrees to talks on American MIAs.

November 11, 1982
The Vietnam Veterans Memorial, "The Wall," is dedicated in Washington,
D.C.

1988
Vietnam begins cooperation with United States to resolve fate of
American servicemen missing in action (MIA).

September/October, 1988
United States and Vietnam conduct first joint field investigations on
MIAs.

September 1989
Vietnam completes Cambodia withdrawal.

Return to Top

April 21, 1991
United States and Vietnam agree to establish U.S. office in Hanoi to
help determine MIAs' fate. Washington presentes Hanoi with a roadmap
for phased normalization of relations and the lifting of the embargo.

October, 1991
Vietnam supports U.N. peace plan for Cambodia. Secretary of State
James Baker says Washington is ready to take steps towards normalizing
relations with Hanoi. Washington presents Hanoi with ''roadmap'' plan
for phased normalization of relations and lifting of U.S. embargo.

December, 1991
Washington lifts ban on organized U.S. travel to Vietnam.

1992
Vietnam's Constitution adopted.

April 29, 1992
Washington eases trade embargo by allowing commercial sales to Vietnam
that meet basic human needs, lifts restrictions on projects by
American non-governmental and non-profit groups, and allows
establishment of telecommunications links with Vietnam.

October, 1992
Retired General John Vessey, U.S. presidential envoy on MIA issue,
makes sixth trip to Hanoi, obtains Vietnamese agreement on wider MIA
cooperation, which Washington describes as a breakthrough.

December 14, 1992
President George Bush grants permission for U.S. companies open
offices, sign contracts and do feasibility studies in Vietnam.

July 2, 1993
President Bill Clinton ends U.S. opposition to settlement of Vietnam's
$140 million arrears to the International Monetary Fund, clearing the
way for the resumption of international lending to Vietnam.

September 13, 1993
President Clinton eases economic sanctions against Vietnam to allow
American firms to bid on development projects financed by
international banks, another step toward normalization.

January 16, 1994
Admiral Charles Larson, head of U.S. Pacific Command visits Vietnam,
the highest-ranking active-duty U.S. military officer to do so since
the war's end. He concludes that lifting the trade embargo would help
efforts to account for Americans missing from the war.

January 27, 1994
Backed by broad bipartisan support, the Senate approves non-binding
resolution urging President Clinton to lift embargo, a move they felt
would help get a full account of Americans still listed as missing in
the Vietnam War.

February 3, 1994
President Clinton announces the lifting of the trade embargo.

October 5, 1994
House passes bill saying MIA accounting should remain central to U.S.
policy in Vietnam and the main function of a U.S. liaison office in
Vietnam.

January 27, 1995
U.S. and Vietnam sign agreements settling old property claims and
establishing liaison offices in each other's capitals.

April 30, 1995
Vietnam celebrates the 20th anniversary of the end of the war.

May 15, 1995
Vietnam gives U.S. presidential delegation batch of documents on
missing Americans, later hailed by Pentagon as most detailed and
informative of their kind.

May 23, 1995
Senators John Kerry (D, Mass) and John McCain (R,-Ariz.), both Vietnam
veterans, urge Clinton to normalize relations.

May 31, 1995
Vietnam turns over 100 pages of maps and reports about U.S. servicemen
killed or captured during the war. An American veteran's map helps
locate a mass grave of communist soldiers killed during the war.

June 1995
Senators Kerry and McCain say they plan to offer a Senate resolution
approving normalized relations with Vietnam.

Secretary of State Warren Christopher recommends to President Clinton
that the United States establish formal diplomatic relations with
Vietnam.

State Department praises Hanoi authorities for increasing
counter-narcotics cooperation with the United States.

Vietnamese President Le Duc Anh announces he will visit the United
States in October for a celebration marking the 50th anniversary of
the founding of the United Nations.

July 11, 1995
President Clinton announces normalization of relations with Vietnam,
saying the time has come to move forward and bind up the wounds from
the war.

July 28, 1995
Vietnam becomes a member of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations
(ASEAN).

August 5, 1995
Secretary of State Warren Christopher opens U.S. embassy in Hanoi.

September 4, 1995
Former President George Bush visits Vietnam.

November 7-10, 1995
Former Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara visits Vietnam.

July 12, 1996
U.S. National Security Adviser Anthony Lake visits Hanoi to mark the
first anniversary of normalization of relations.

April 10, 1997
Former POW Douglas "Pete" Peterson is confirmed by the Senate as the
first ambassador to Vietnam since the end of the war and the first
ever to be posted to Hanoi. Vietnam's Le Van Bang is confirmed as
Vietnam's ambassador to the United States.

April 16, 1997
U.S. and Vietnam reach copyright protection agreement, a step toward
Most Favored Nation status.

May 9, 1997
Ambassador Peterson arrives in Hanoi to take up his new post.
Ambassador Le Van Bang arrived in Washington on May 7.

June 24, 1997
Secretary of State Madeline Albright arrives in Vietnam on an official
visit.

March 10, 1998
President Clinton waives the The Jackson-Vanik Amendment for Vietnam,
allowing American investors in Vietnam to compete more effectively in
Vietnam and to receive financial help from U.S. government agencies
such as the Export-Import Bank.

April 15, 1998
Pol Pot dies

Return to Top

July 13, 2000
The United States Trade Representative Charlene Barshefsky and
Vietnam's Trade Minister Vu Khoan sign a major trade agreement
intended to provide Vietnam with access to the U.S.market on the same
terms granted to most other nations. Vietnam agrees to lower tariffs
and other trade barriers on American products and services. The trade
agreement is the last step in normalizing relations between the U.S.
and Vietnam.

November 16-19, 2000
President Bill Clinton and his family, Hillary Clinton and their
daughter Chelsea, arrived in Hanoi for a historic visit. Clinton was
the first President to visit Vietnam since President Nixon's visit in
1969. The purpose of Clinton's trip was to discuss relations between
the two countries. Clinton said, "I think it is time to write a new
chapter here." See President Clinton's Visit to Vietnam.

July 24-26, 2001
Secretary of State Colin Powell pays a three-day visit to Vietnam
where he attended the ASEAN Regional Forum in Hanoi. It was Powell's
first visit to Vietnam since he served in the war in 1969.

October 3, 2001
The United States Senate approves an agreement normalizing trade
between the United States and Vietnam.

November 28, 2001
Vietnam's National Assembly ratifies the trade agreement with the
United States but warned that any U.S. interference in Vietnam's
internal affairs could jeopardize implementation of the agreement. The
Vietnamese government voiced strong concerns over the U.S. House of
Representatives' passage of a Vietnam Human Rights Act which ties
future U.S. non-humanitarian aid to improvements in Vietnam's human
rights record.

November 10, 2003
U.S. S ecretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld met with Vietnam's Defense
Minister Pham Van Tra. This was the first time a senior Vietnamese
military official has visited Washington.

November 19, 2003
Navy missile frigate USS Vandegrift docked in the port of Ho Chi Minh
City, a symbolic act aimed at boosting relations between Vietnam and
the United States. Many of the crew were sons and daughters of Vietnam
War veterans. It was the first U.S. ship to dock in Vietnam since the
end of the war.

January 14, 2004
Nguyen Cao Ky, who served as premier of South Vietnam until 1967 and
then as vice president from 1967 to 1971, paid a visit to relatives in
Vietnam for the Tet holiday. Permission for the visit was given by the
Vietnamese government. The visit caused controversy among overseas
Vietnamese who felt it would legitimize the current government in
Vietnam. Ky fled to the United States prior to the fall of Saigon in
1975.





" We have all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million
typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of
Shakespeare...Thanks to AOL and WebTv, we know this is not possible."

Gunner wrote:

On 7 Feb 2005 05:03:14 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Ayup..history is somehow overlooked when you hate Bush.

Ah, amnesia. It gets forgotten when you embrace him too.
All the bush-huggers seem to have forgotten about a place
in southeast asia where we spend a little time, a few
dollars, and a few american lives.

We're doing the same thing in the middle east.
But we're *happy* about it because we forgot what
a 20 year war does.

Jim

Are you referring to a war that first involved the US in 1941, by a
Democrat President (Truman), then escalated by another Democrat
President, (Kennedy), seriously escalated by another Democrat
President (LBJ), was spun and twisted by Democrat media that showed
every US victory to be a US loss, turned over the the now nearly
victorious South Vietnamese, and withdrawn from by a Republican
President (Nixon), then was defunded and ultimately lost because of
Democrat Congress critters?

That war?

Gunner

Truman? Did you ever go to school? LOL

Tom

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 22:23:19 -0800, Tom wrote:

Gunner wrote:

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 10:41:09 -0800, Tom wrote:

Gunner wrote:

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 09:16:49 -0800, Tom wrote:

Gunner wrote:

On 7 Feb 2005 05:03:14 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Ayup..history is somehow overlooked when you hate Bush.

Ah, amnesia. It gets forgotten when you embrace him too.
All the bush-huggers seem to have forgotten about a place
in southeast asia where we spend a little time, a few
dollars, and a few american lives.

We're doing the same thing in the middle east.
But we're *happy* about it because we forgot what
a 20 year war does.

Jim

Are you referring to a war that first involved the US in 1941, by a
Democrat President (Truman), then escalated by another Democrat
President, (Kennedy), seriously escalated by another Democrat
President (LBJ), was spun and twisted by Democrat media that showed
every US victory to be a US loss, turned over the the now nearly
victorious South Vietnamese, and withdrawn from by a Republican
President (Nixon), then was defunded and ultimately lost because of
Democrat Congress critters?

That war?

Gunner

Truman? Did you ever go to school? LOL

Tom

Actually Tom, apparently unlike you..I did. Extraneous crap cut...
.............
Gunner

Perhaps then you would like to cite the school text that
states Truman was president in 1941?

I didn't think so..

Tom

Mea culpa. I should have mentioned that Rosevelt started an oil
boycott against the Japanese in 1941, (Pre-Pearl Harbor) but it was
Truman that involved the military......

500+ lines of avoidance of the issue, cut.
You wrote that President Truman (Democrat) started the "War" in 1941...
He didn't, fact.

Tom

You are unaware of what Mea Culpa means?
Its evident that your agenda of hate and spew is effecting your
judgement.

Gunner



" We have all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million
typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of
Shakespeare...Thanks to AOL and WebTv, we know this is not possible."

In article , Gunner says...

victorious South Vietnamese, and withdrawn from by a Republican
President (Nixon), then was defunded and ultimately lost because of
Democrat Congress critters?

That war?

Yes of course, you are right here. We should still be
fighting there, and even more US soldiers should have
died. That would have been much better.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Gunner wrote:

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 09:16:49 -0800, Tom wrote:

Gunner wrote:

On 7 Feb 2005 05:03:14 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Ayup..history is somehow overlooked when you hate Bush.

Ah, amnesia. It gets forgotten when you embrace him too.
All the bush-huggers seem to have forgotten about a place
in southeast asia where we spend a little time, a few
dollars, and a few american lives.

We're doing the same thing in the middle east.
But we're *happy* about it because we forgot what
a 20 year war does.

Jim

Are you referring to a war that first involved the US in 1941, by a
Democrat President (Truman), then escalated by another Democrat
President, (Kennedy), seriously escalated by another Democrat
President (LBJ), was spun and twisted by Democrat media that showed
every US victory to be a US loss, turned over the the now nearly
victorious South Vietnamese, and withdrawn from by a Republican
President (Nixon), then was defunded and ultimately lost because of
Democrat Congress critters?

That war?

Gunner

Truman? Did you ever go to school? LOL

Tom

Actually Tom, apparently unlike you..I did. Extraneous crap cut...
..............
Gunner

Perhaps then you would like to cite the school text that
states Truman was president in 1941?

I didn't think so..

Tom

I missed the staff meeting but the minutes show Gunner
wrote back on Tue, 08 Feb 2005 17:17:33 GMT
in rec.crafts.metalworking :

Perhaps then you would like to cite the school text that
states Truman was president in 1941?

I didn't think so..

Tom

Mea culpa. I should have mentioned that Rosevelt started an oil
boycott against the Japanese in 1941, (Pre-Pearl Harbor) but it was
Truman that involved the military......

500+ lines of avoidance of the issue, cut.
You wrote that President Truman (Democrat) started the "War" in 1941...
He didn't, fact.

Tom

You are unaware of what Mea Culpa means?
Its evident that your agenda of hate and spew is effecting your judgement.

Don't be so harsh on him. It could also mean he's a post Vatican II
Catholic, or a Protestant victim of public education.

Verb Sap and all that.

tschus
pyotr



--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

On 8 Feb 2005 10:33:04 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

victorious South Vietnamese, and withdrawn from by a Republican
President (Nixon), then was defunded and ultimately lost because of
Democrat Congress critters?

That war?

Yes of course, you are right here. We should still be
fighting there, and even more US soldiers should have
died. That would have been much better.

Jim

Why would you say that? Nixon got us OUT of Vietnam and his
Vietnamization plans had the South doing exceptionally well and
largely putting the North on the run.

Then the Dems cut off funding and aid, the bullets bombs and fuel ran
out and in 1975, the forces of North Vietnam drove into Siagon over
the corpses of our allies.

Im sure all those people that went to the Reeducation camps or mass
graves thanked you Democrats from the bottom of their maggot infested
eye sockets.

Gunner



" We have all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million
typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of
Shakespeare...Thanks to AOL and WebTv, we know this is not possible."

On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 06:38:30 -0800, Tom wrote:

Gunner wrote:

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 22:23:19 -0800, Tom wrote:

Gunner wrote:

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 10:41:09 -0800, Tom wrote:

Gunner wrote:

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 09:16:49 -0800, Tom wrote:

Gunner wrote:

On 7 Feb 2005 05:03:14 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Ayup..history is somehow overlooked when you hate Bush.

Ah, amnesia. It gets forgotten when you embrace him too.
All the bush-huggers seem to have forgotten about a place
in southeast asia where we spend a little time, a few
dollars, and a few american lives.

We're doing the same thing in the middle east.
But we're *happy* about it because we forgot what
a 20 year war does.

Jim

Are you referring to a war that first involved the US in 1941, by a
Democrat President (Truman), then escalated by another Democrat
President, (Kennedy), seriously escalated by another Democrat
President (LBJ), was spun and twisted by Democrat media that showed
every US victory to be a US loss, turned over the the now nearly
victorious South Vietnamese, and withdrawn from by a Republican
President (Nixon), then was defunded and ultimately lost because of
Democrat Congress critters?

That war?

Gunner

Truman? Did you ever go to school? LOL

Tom

Actually Tom, apparently unlike you..I did. Extraneous crap cut...
.............
Gunner

Perhaps then you would like to cite the school text that
states Truman was president in 1941?

I didn't think so..

Tom

Mea culpa. I should have mentioned that Rosevelt started an oil
boycott against the Japanese in 1941, (Pre-Pearl Harbor) but it was
Truman that involved the military......

500+ lines of avoidance of the issue, cut.
You wrote that President Truman (Democrat) started the "War" in 1941...
He didn't, fact.

Tom

You are unaware of what Mea Culpa means?
Its evident that your agenda of hate and spew is effecting your
judgement.

Gunner

Yeah? How could Truman have "involved" the military in 1941?

Instead of getting all emotional, try for once to bring a
little historical accuracy to your posts, then you may not
have to deal with these critiques which obviously sffect
your blood pressure.

Tom

I did bring historical accuracy to my post. You snipped it for some
bizzare reason only known to you.

Ill repost it so you can pick out the inaccurate parts

Mea culpa. I should have mentioned that Rosevelt started an oil
boycott against the Japanese in 1941, (Pre-Pearl Harbor) but it was
Truman that involved the military..

You are aware that the US got most of its rubber from Vietnam up to
that point?

A timeline....

September, 1940
Japanese troops occupy Indochina, but allow the French to continue
their colonial adminstration of the area. Japan's move into southern
part of Vietnam in July 1941 sparks an oil boycott by the U.S. and
Great Britain. The resulting oil shortage strengthens Japan's desire
to risk war against the U.S. and Britain.

1945
An OSS (Office of Strategic Services, forerunner of the CIA) team
parachutes into Ho Chi Minh's jungle camp in northern Vietnam and
saves Ho Chi Minh who is ill with malaria and other tropical diseases.

August, 1945
Japan surrenders. Ho Chi Minh establishes the Viet Minh, a guerilla
army. Bao Dai abdicates after a general uprising led by the Viet Minh.

September, 1945
Seven OSS officers, led by Lieutenant Colonel A. Peter Dewey, land in
Saigon to liberate Allied war prisoners, search for missing Americans,
and gather intelligence.

September 2, 1945
Ho Chi Minh reads Vietnam's Declaration of Independence to end 80
years of colonialism under French rule and establish the Democratic
Republic of Vietnam in Hanoi. Vietnam is divided north and south.

September 26, 1945
OSS Lieutenant Dewey killed in Saigon, the first American to be killed
in Vietnam. French and Vietminh spokesmen blame each other for his
death.

November, 1946
Ho Chi Minh attempts to negotiate the end of colonial rule with the
French without success. The French army shells Haiphong harbor in
November, killing over 6,000 Vietnamese civilians, and, by December,
open war between France and the Viet Minh begins.

Return to Top

1950
The U.S., recognizing Boa Dai's regime as legitimate, begins to
subsidize the French in Vietnam; the Chinese Communists, having won
their civil war in 1949, begin to supply weapons to the Viet Minh.

August 3, 1950
A U.S. Military Assistance Advisory Group (MAAG) of 35 men arrives in
Saigon. By the end of the year, the U.S. is bearing half of the cost
of France's war effort in Vietnam.

May 7, 1954
The French are defeated at Dien Bien Phu. General Vo Nguyen Giap
commands the Viet Minh forces. France is forced to withdraw. The
French-indochina War ends. See also:

Dien Bien Phu: A Vietnamese Perspective
Dien Bien Phu: A Website of the Battle

June, 1954
The CIA establishes a military mission in Saigon. Bao Dai selects Ngo
Dinh Diem as prime minster of his government.

July 20, 1954
The Geneva Conference on Indochina declares a demilitarized zone at
the 17th parallel with the North under Communist rule and the South
under the leadership of Prime Minister Ngo Dinh Diem.

October 24, 1954
President Dwight D. Eisenhower pledges support to Diem's government
and military forces.

1955
The U.S.-backed Ngo Dinh Diem organizes the Republic of Vietnam as an
independent nation; declares himself president.

1956
Fighting begins between the North and the South.

July 8, 1959
The first American combat deaths in Vietnam occur when Viet Cong
attack Bien Hoa billets; two servicemen are killed.

Return to Top

1960
The National Liberation Front (NLF)--called the Viet Cong--is founded
in South Vietnam.

February, 1961
The U.S. military buildup in Vietnam begins with combat advisors.
President John F. Kennedy declares that they will respond if fired
upon.

June 16, 1963
A Buddhist monk immolates himself in Saigon. Buddhist demonstrations
occurred from May through August.

June 20, 1964
General William Westmoreland succeeds General Paul Harkins as head of
the U.S. forces (MACV) in Vietnam.

November 1, 1963
South Vietnamese President Ngo Dinh Diem is assassinated.

May 4, 1964
Trade embargo imposed on North Vietnam in response to attacks from the
North on South Vietnam.

August 2 and 4, 1964
The Gulf of Tonkin Incident. North Vietnamese torpedo boats attacked
the U.S. destroyer Maddox in the Gulf of Tonkin. A second attack
allegedly occurs on August 4.

August 5, 1964
President Lyndon Johnson asks Congress for a resolution against North
Vietnam following the Gulf of Tonkin incident. Congress debates.

August 7, 1964
Congress approves the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution which allows the
president to take any necessary measures to repel further attacks and
to provide military assistance to any South Asia Treaty Organization
(SEATO) member. Senators Wayne L. Morse of Oregon and Ernest Gruening
of Alaska cast the only dissenting votes. President Johnson orders the
bombing of North Vietnam. For additional information, see New Light on
Gulf of Tonkin, McNamara Asks Giap, "What Happened at Tonkin Gulf?",
and 30-Year Anniversary: Tonkin Gulf Lie Launched the Vietnam War.

March 8-9, 1965
The first American combat troops arrive in Vietnam.

April 6-8, 1965
President Johnson authorizes the use of U.S. ground combat troops for
offensive operations. The next day he offers North Vietnam aid in
exchange for peace. North Vietnam rejects the offer.

April 17, 1965
Students for a Democratic Society sponsor the first major anti-war
rally in Washington, D.C.

June, 1965
Generals Nguyen Cao Ky and Nguyen Van Thieu seize the South Vietnamese
government.

October 15-16, 1965
Anti-war protests are held in about 40 American cities.

November 14-16, 1965
The first major military engagement occurs between U.S. and North
Vietnamese forces.

September, 1967
Thieu is elected president of South Vietnam.

Oct. 21-23, 1967
50,000 people demonstrate against the war in Washington, D.C.

January 21, 1968
The battle of Khe Sanh begins, ending six months later.

January 31, 1968
The Tet Offensive. Communist forces launch attacks on Hue´ and 31
other South Vietnamese provincial capitals and military bases. One
assault team gets inside the walls of the U.S. embassy in Saigon but
is driven back.

American Perspective
Vietnamese Perspective

March 16, 1968
150 unarmed Vietnamese civilians are killed by members of U.S. Army
Lt. William L. Calley Jr.'s platoon at My Lai.

March 22, 1968
President Lyndon Johnson names General William Westmoreland as Army
Chief of Staff. He was replaced in Vietnam by General Creighton W.
Abrams .


May 10, 1968
The Paris peace talks begin between U. S. and Vietnamese officials.

May 10-20, 1969
The battle for Hamburger Hill

June 8, 1969
President Richard Nixon announces the first troop withdrawals from
South Vietnam

September 3, 1969
Ho Chi Minh dies.

November 15, 1969
250,000 people demonstrate against the war in Washington, D.C.

December 1, 1969
The first draft lottery since 1942 begins.

Return to Top



March 10, 1970
Captain Ernest Medina charged with murder for the murders at My Lai.
Events leading up the the My Lai Courts-Martial begin, ending with the
conviction of Lieutenant William Calley on March 29, 1970.

April 30, 1970
The armies of the U.S. and South Vietnam invade Cambodia to roust
North Vietnamese troops. The invasion sparks campus protests.

May 4, 1970
Four students are killed by National Guardsmen at Kent State
University in Ohio. The killings sparked hundreds of protest
activities across college campuses in the United States. Some
protesters, like those at the University of New Mexico, were met with
violence. See: The United Sates Anti-War Movement and the Vietnam War
and New Mexico State Police Association.

May 6, 1970
More than 100 colleges are closed due to student riots over he
invasion of Cambodia.

February, 1971
South Vietnam and the U.S. invade Laos in an attempt to sever the Ho
Chi Minh Trail.

December 18, 1972
Christmas bombing of Hanoi and North Vietnam begins.

December 24, 1972
1972 Bob Hope gives his last show to U.S. servicemen in Saigon. It was
his 9th consecutive Christmas show in Vietnam. President Nixon
suspends Operation Linebacker II for 36 hours to mark the Christmas
holiday.

December 28, 1972
Tthe North Vietnamese announced that they will return to Paris if
Nixon ends the bombing. The bombing campaign was halted and the
negotiators met during the first week of January, 1973.

January 23, 1973
United States, South Vietnam, and North Vietnam sign Paris Peace
Accords, ending American combat role in war. U.S. military draft ends.
A cease-fire goes into effect 5 days later.

March 29, 1973
Last U.S. combat troops leave Vietnam.

February 12-27, 1973
POWs begin to come home as part of Operation Homecoming

April 1, 1973
Hanoi releases last 591 acknowledged American POWs.

September 16, 1974
President Gerald Ford offers clemency to draft evaders and military
deserters.

April 21, 1975
South Vietnamese President Thieu resigns.

April 29-30, 1975
Saigon falls. U. S. Navy evacuates U.S. personnel and South Vietnamese
refugees. The last American combat death in Vietnam occurs. South
Vietnamese President Duong Van Minh surrenders.

American Perspective
Vietnamese Perspective

April 30, 1975
North Vietnamese forces take over Saigon; South Vietnam surrenders to
North Vietnam, ending the war and reunifying the country under
communist control, forming the Independent Socialist Republic of
Vietnam. Washington extends embargo to all of Vietnam.

May 12, 1975
The U.S. merchant ship Mayaguez is seized by the Khmer Rouge in
international waters in the Gulf of Siam. The ship, owned by Sea-Land
Corporation, was en route to Sattahip, Thailand, from Hong-Kong,
carrying a non-arms cargo for military bases in Thailand.

December, 1978
Vietnam invades Cambodia and topples Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge government,
ending its reign of terror.

1979
Western European countries and non-communist Asian nations support
U.S.-led embargo against Vietnam, in protest against invasion of
Cambodia.

Return to Top

February, 1982
Vietnam agrees to talks on American MIAs.

November 11, 1982
The Vietnam Veterans Memorial, "The Wall," is dedicated in Washington,
D.C.

1988
Vietnam begins cooperation with United States to resolve fate of
American servicemen missing in action (MIA).

September/October, 1988
United States and Vietnam conduct first joint field investigations on
MIAs.

September 1989
Vietnam completes Cambodia withdrawal.

Return to Top

April 21, 1991
United States and Vietnam agree to establish U.S. office in Hanoi to
help determine MIAs' fate. Washington presentes Hanoi with a roadmap
for phased normalization of relations and the lifting of the embargo.

October, 1991
Vietnam supports U.N. peace plan for Cambodia. Secretary of State
James Baker says Washington is ready to take steps towards normalizing
relations with Hanoi. Washington presents Hanoi with ''roadmap'' plan
for phased normalization of relations and lifting of U.S. embargo.

December, 1991
Washington lifts ban on organized U.S. travel to Vietnam.

1992
Vietnam's Constitution adopted.

April 29, 1992
Washington eases trade embargo by allowing commercial sales to Vietnam
that meet basic human needs, lifts restrictions on projects by
American non-governmental and non-profit groups, and allows
establishment of telecommunications links with Vietnam.

October, 1992
Retired General John Vessey, U.S. presidential envoy on MIA issue,
makes sixth trip to Hanoi, obtains Vietnamese agreement on wider MIA
cooperation, which Washington describes as a breakthrough.

December 14, 1992
President George Bush grants permission for U.S. companies open
offices, sign contracts and do feasibility studies in Vietnam.

July 2, 1993
President Bill Clinton ends U.S. opposition to settlement of Vietnam's
$140 million arrears to the International Monetary Fund, clearing the
way for the resumption of international lending to Vietnam.

September 13, 1993
President Clinton eases economic sanctions against Vietnam to allow
American firms to bid on development projects financed by
international banks, another step toward normalization.

January 16, 1994
Admiral Charles Larson, head of U.S. Pacific Command visits Vietnam,
the highest-ranking active-duty U.S. military officer to do so since
the war's end. He concludes that lifting the trade embargo would help
efforts to account for Americans missing from the war.

January 27, 1994
Backed by broad bipartisan support, the Senate approves non-binding
resolution urging President Clinton to lift embargo, a move they felt
would help get a full account of Americans still listed as missing in
the Vietnam War.

February 3, 1994
President Clinton announces the lifting of the trade embargo.

October 5, 1994
House passes bill saying MIA accounting should remain central to U.S.
policy in Vietnam and the main function of a U.S. liaison office in
Vietnam.

January 27, 1995
U.S. and Vietnam sign agreements settling old property claims and
establishing liaison offices in each other's capitals.

April 30, 1995
Vietnam celebrates the 20th anniversary of the end of the war.

May 15, 1995
Vietnam gives U.S. presidential delegation batch of documents on
missing Americans, later hailed by Pentagon as most detailed and
informative of their kind.

May 23, 1995
Senators John Kerry (D, Mass) and John McCain (R,-Ariz.), both Vietnam
veterans, urge Clinton to normalize relations.

May 31, 1995
Vietnam turns over 100 pages of maps and reports about U.S. servicemen
killed or captured during the war. An American veteran's map helps
locate a mass grave of communist soldiers killed during the war.

June 1995
Senators Kerry and McCain say they plan to offer a Senate resolution
approving normalized relations with Vietnam.

Secretary of State Warren Christopher recommends to President Clinton
that the United States establish formal diplomatic relations with
Vietnam.

State Department praises Hanoi authorities for increasing
counter-narcotics cooperation with the United States.

Vietnamese President Le Duc Anh announces he will visit the United
States in October for a celebration marking the 50th anniversary of
the founding of the United Nations.

July 11, 1995
President Clinton announces normalization of relations with Vietnam,
saying the time has come to move forward and bind up the wounds from
the war.

July 28, 1995
Vietnam becomes a member of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations
(ASEAN).

August 5, 1995
Secretary of State Warren Christopher opens U.S. embassy in Hanoi.

September 4, 1995
Former President George Bush visits Vietnam.

November 7-10, 1995
Former Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara visits Vietnam.

July 12, 1996
U.S. National Security Adviser Anthony Lake visits Hanoi to mark the
first anniversary of normalization of relations.

April 10, 1997
Former POW Douglas "Pete" Peterson is confirmed by the Senate as the
first ambassador to Vietnam since the end of the war and the first
ever to be posted to Hanoi. Vietnam's Le Van Bang is confirmed as
Vietnam's ambassador to the United States.

April 16, 1997
U.S. and Vietnam reach copyright protection agreement, a step toward
Most Favored Nation status.

May 9, 1997
Ambassador Peterson arrives in Hanoi to take up his new post.
Ambassador Le Van Bang arrived in Washington on May 7.

June 24, 1997
Secretary of State Madeline Albright arrives in Vietnam on an official
visit.

March 10, 1998
President Clinton waives the The Jackson-Vanik Amendment for Vietnam,
allowing American investors in Vietnam to compete more effectively in
Vietnam and to receive financial help from U.S. government agencies
such as the Export-Import Bank.

April 15, 1998
Pol Pot dies

Return to Top

July 13, 2000
The United States Trade Representative Charlene Barshefsky and
Vietnam's Trade Minister Vu Khoan sign a major trade agreement
intended to provide Vietnam with access to the U.S.market on the same
terms granted to most other nations. Vietnam agrees to lower tariffs
and other trade barriers on American products and services. The trade
agreement is the last step in normalizing relations between the U.S.
and Vietnam.

November 16-19, 2000
President Bill Clinton and his family, Hillary Clinton and their
daughter Chelsea, arrived in Hanoi for a historic visit. Clinton was
the first President to visit Vietnam since President Nixon's visit in
1969. The purpose of Clinton's trip was to discuss relations between
the two countries. Clinton said, "I think it is time to write a new
chapter here." See President Clinton's Visit to Vietnam.

July 24-26, 2001
Secretary of State Colin Powell pays a three-day visit to Vietnam
where he attended the ASEAN Regional Forum in Hanoi. It was Powell's
first visit to Vietnam since he served in the war in 1969.

October 3, 2001
The United States Senate approves an agreement normalizing trade
between the United States and Vietnam.

November 28, 2001
Vietnam's National Assembly ratifies the trade agreement with the
United States but warned that any U.S. interference in Vietnam's
internal affairs could jeopardize implementation of the agreement. The
Vietnamese government voiced strong concerns over the U.S. House of
Representatives' passage of a Vietnam Human Rights Act which ties
future U.S. non-humanitarian aid to improvements in Vietnam's human
rights record.

November 10, 2003
U.S. S ecretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld met with Vietnam's Defense
Minister Pham Van Tra. This was the first time a senior Vietnamese
military official has visited Washington.

November 19, 2003
Navy missile frigate USS Vandegrift docked in the port of Ho Chi Minh
City, a symbolic act aimed at boosting relations between Vietnam and
the United States. Many of the crew were sons and daughters of Vietnam
War veterans. It was the first U.S. ship to dock in Vietnam since the
end of the war.

January 14, 2004
Nguyen Cao Ky, who served as premier of South Vietnam until 1967 and
then as vice president from 1967 to 1971, paid a visit to relatives in
Vietnam for the Tet holiday. Permission for the visit was given by the
Vietnamese government. The visit caused controversy among overseas
Vietnamese who felt it would legitimize the current government in
Vietnam. Ky fled to the United States prior to the fall of Saigon in
1975.





" We have all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million
typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of
Shakespeare...Thanks to AOL and WebTv, we know this is not possible."

Gunner wrote:

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 10:41:09 -0800, Tom wrote:

Gunner wrote:

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 09:16:49 -0800, Tom wrote:

Gunner wrote:

On 7 Feb 2005 05:03:14 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Ayup..history is somehow overlooked when you hate Bush.

Ah, amnesia. It gets forgotten when you embrace him too.
All the bush-huggers seem to have forgotten about a place
in southeast asia where we spend a little time, a few
dollars, and a few american lives.

We're doing the same thing in the middle east.
But we're *happy* about it because we forgot what
a 20 year war does.

Jim

Are you referring to a war that first involved the US in 1941, by a
Democrat President (Truman), then escalated by another Democrat
President, (Kennedy), seriously escalated by another Democrat
President (LBJ), was spun and twisted by Democrat media that showed
every US victory to be a US loss, turned over the the now nearly
victorious South Vietnamese, and withdrawn from by a Republican
President (Nixon), then was defunded and ultimately lost because of
Democrat Congress critters?

That war?

Gunner

Truman? Did you ever go to school? LOL

Tom

Actually Tom, apparently unlike you..I did. Extraneous crap cut...
.............
Gunner

Perhaps then you would like to cite the school text that
states Truman was president in 1941?

I didn't think so..

Tom

Mea culpa. I should have mentioned that Rosevelt started an oil
boycott against the Japanese in 1941, (Pre-Pearl Harbor) but it was
Truman that involved the military......

500+ lines of avoidance of the issue, cut.
You wrote that President Truman (Democrat) started the "War" in 1941...
He didn't, fact.

Tom

On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 17:37:27 -0800, Tom wrote:

Gunner wrote:

On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 06:38:30 -0800, Tom wrote:

Gunner wrote:

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 22:23:19 -0800, Tom wrote:

Gunner wrote:

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 10:41:09 -0800, Tom wrote:

Gunner wrote:

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 09:16:49 -0800, Tom wrote:

Gunner wrote:

On 7 Feb 2005 05:03:14 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Ayup..history is somehow overlooked when you hate Bush.

Ah, amnesia. It gets forgotten when you embrace him too.
All the bush-huggers seem to have forgotten about a place
in southeast asia where we spend a little time, a few
dollars, and a few american lives.

We're doing the same thing in the middle east.
But we're *happy* about it because we forgot what
a 20 year war does.

Jim

Are you referring to a war that first involved the US in 1941, by a
Democrat President (Truman), then escalated by another Democrat
President, (Kennedy), seriously escalated by another Democrat
President (LBJ), was spun and twisted by Democrat media that showed
every US victory to be a US loss, turned over the the now nearly
victorious South Vietnamese, and withdrawn from by a Republican
President (Nixon), then was defunded and ultimately lost because of
Democrat Congress critters?

That war?

Gunner

Truman? Did you ever go to school? LOL

Tom

Actually Tom, apparently unlike you..I did. Extraneous crap cut...
.............
Gunner

Perhaps then you would like to cite the school text that
states Truman was president in 1941?

I didn't think so..

Tom

Mea culpa. I should have mentioned that Rosevelt started an oil
boycott against the Japanese in 1941, (Pre-Pearl Harbor) but it was
Truman that involved the military......

500+ lines of avoidance of the issue, cut.
You wrote that President Truman (Democrat) started the "War" in 1941...
He didn't, fact.

Tom

You are unaware of what Mea Culpa means?
Its evident that your agenda of hate and spew is effecting your
judgement.

Gunner

Yeah? How could Truman have "involved" the military in 1941?

Instead of getting all emotional, try for once to bring a
little historical accuracy to your posts, then you may not
have to deal with these critiques which obviously sffect
your blood pressure.

Tom

I did bring historical accuracy to my post. You snipped it for some
bizzare reason only known to you.

Ill repost it so you can pick out the inaccurate parts

Mea culpa. I should have mentioned that Rosevelt started an oil
boycott against the Japanese in 1941, (Pre-Pearl Harbor) but it was
Truman that involved the military..


LOL, you still don't get it! I didn't snip anything that related
to Truman, Truman never gets another mention.

Anything in 1945 is Truman related.

What I suggest you do is go back to total copy & paste, then
we'll have to blame someone else. Your slovenly composition
really aren't the trouble.

Your point is?

Tom
PS Only 50% of US imports of rubber were from French Indo-China
then.

Sure it wasnt 50.001%? Or perhaps 52%...or maybe 55%? Did you round
up or down and how did you average production? 10yr span? 30 yr span?
60 second span?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Gunner

Rule #35
"That which does not kill you,
has made a huge tactical error"

Gunner wrote:

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 22:23:19 -0800, Tom wrote:

Gunner wrote:

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 10:41:09 -0800, Tom wrote:

Gunner wrote:

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 09:16:49 -0800, Tom wrote:

Gunner wrote:

On 7 Feb 2005 05:03:14 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Ayup..history is somehow overlooked when you hate Bush.

Ah, amnesia. It gets forgotten when you embrace him too.
All the bush-huggers seem to have forgotten about a place
in southeast asia where we spend a little time, a few
dollars, and a few american lives.

We're doing the same thing in the middle east.
But we're *happy* about it because we forgot what
a 20 year war does.

Jim

Are you referring to a war that first involved the US in 1941, by a
Democrat President (Truman), then escalated by another Democrat
President, (Kennedy), seriously escalated by another Democrat
President (LBJ), was spun and twisted by Democrat media that showed
every US victory to be a US loss, turned over the the now nearly
victorious South Vietnamese, and withdrawn from by a Republican
President (Nixon), then was defunded and ultimately lost because of
Democrat Congress critters?

That war?

Gunner

Truman? Did you ever go to school? LOL

Tom

Actually Tom, apparently unlike you..I did. Extraneous crap cut...
.............
Gunner

Perhaps then you would like to cite the school text that
states Truman was president in 1941?

I didn't think so..

Tom

Mea culpa. I should have mentioned that Rosevelt started an oil
boycott against the Japanese in 1941, (Pre-Pearl Harbor) but it was
Truman that involved the military......

500+ lines of avoidance of the issue, cut.
You wrote that President Truman (Democrat) started the "War" in 1941...
He didn't, fact.

Tom

You are unaware of what Mea Culpa means?
Its evident that your agenda of hate and spew is effecting your
judgement.

Gunner

Yeah? How could Truman have "involved" the military in 1941?

Instead of getting all emotional, try for once to bring a
little historical accuracy to your posts, then you may not
have to deal with these critiques which obviously sffect
your blood pressure.

Tom

On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 21:19:44 -0800, Tom wrote:


Sure it wasnt 50.001%? Or perhaps 52%...or maybe 55%? Did you round
up or down and how did you average production? 10yr span? 30 yr span?
60 second span?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Gunner

Schizo, that I can believe.

Introspection on your part is always good.

See my previous suggestion about contacting a mental health
professional.
Remember Tom, even though you may be perfectly happy to go through
life half mad...its got to be rough on your family. Do it for the
children.

Gunner

Rule #35
"That which does not kill you,
has made a huge tactical error"

pyotr filipivich wrote:

I missed the staff meeting but the minutes show Gunner
wrote back on Tue, 08 Feb 2005 17:17:33 GMT
in rec.crafts.metalworking :

Perhaps then you would like to cite the school text that
states Truman was president in 1941?

I didn't think so..

Tom

Mea culpa. I should have mentioned that Rosevelt started an oil
boycott against the Japanese in 1941, (Pre-Pearl Harbor) but it was
Truman that involved the military......

500+ lines of avoidance of the issue, cut.
You wrote that President Truman (Democrat) started the "War" in 1941...
He didn't, fact.

Tom

You are unaware of what Mea Culpa means?
Its evident that your agenda of hate and spew is effecting your judgement.

Don't be so harsh on him. It could also mean he's a post Vatican II
Catholic, or a Protestant victim of public education.

Verb Sap and all that.

tschus
pyotr

E contrario

Gunner wrote:

On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 06:38:30 -0800, Tom wrote:

Gunner wrote:

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 22:23:19 -0800, Tom wrote:

Gunner wrote:

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 10:41:09 -0800, Tom wrote:

Gunner wrote:

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 09:16:49 -0800, Tom wrote:

Gunner wrote:

On 7 Feb 2005 05:03:14 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Ayup..history is somehow overlooked when you hate Bush.

Ah, amnesia. It gets forgotten when you embrace him too.
All the bush-huggers seem to have forgotten about a place
in southeast asia where we spend a little time, a few
dollars, and a few american lives.

We're doing the same thing in the middle east.
But we're *happy* about it because we forgot what
a 20 year war does.

Jim

Are you referring to a war that first involved the US in 1941, by a
Democrat President (Truman), then escalated by another Democrat
President, (Kennedy), seriously escalated by another Democrat
President (LBJ), was spun and twisted by Democrat media that showed
every US victory to be a US loss, turned over the the now nearly
victorious South Vietnamese, and withdrawn from by a Republican
President (Nixon), then was defunded and ultimately lost because of
Democrat Congress critters?

That war?

Gunner

Truman? Did you ever go to school? LOL

Tom

Actually Tom, apparently unlike you..I did. Extraneous crap cut...
.............
Gunner

Perhaps then you would like to cite the school text that
states Truman was president in 1941?

I didn't think so..

Tom

Mea culpa. I should have mentioned that Rosevelt started an oil
boycott against the Japanese in 1941, (Pre-Pearl Harbor) but it was
Truman that involved the military......

500+ lines of avoidance of the issue, cut.
You wrote that President Truman (Democrat) started the "War" in 1941...
He didn't, fact.

Tom

You are unaware of what Mea Culpa means?
Its evident that your agenda of hate and spew is effecting your
judgement.

Gunner

Yeah? How could Truman have "involved" the military in 1941?

Instead of getting all emotional, try for once to bring a
little historical accuracy to your posts, then you may not
have to deal with these critiques which obviously sffect
your blood pressure.

Tom

I did bring historical accuracy to my post. You snipped it for some
bizzare reason only known to you.

Ill repost it so you can pick out the inaccurate parts

Mea culpa. I should have mentioned that Rosevelt started an oil
boycott against the Japanese in 1941, (Pre-Pearl Harbor) but it was
Truman that involved the military..


LOL, you still don't get it! I didn't snip anything that related
to Truman, Truman never gets another mention.

What I suggest you do is go back to total copy & paste, then
we'll have to blame someone else. Your slovenly composition
really aren't the trouble.

Tom
PS Only 50% of US imports of rubber were from French Indo-China
then.

Gunner wrote:

On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 17:37:27 -0800, Tom wrote:

Gunner wrote:

On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 06:38:30 -0800, Tom wrote:

Gunner wrote:

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 22:23:19 -0800, Tom wrote:

Gunner wrote:

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 10:41:09 -0800, Tom wrote:

Gunner wrote:

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 09:16:49 -0800, Tom wrote:

Gunner wrote:

On 7 Feb 2005 05:03:14 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Ayup..history is somehow overlooked when you hate Bush.

Ah, amnesia. It gets forgotten when you embrace him too.
All the bush-huggers seem to have forgotten about a place
in southeast asia where we spend a little time, a few
dollars, and a few american lives.

We're doing the same thing in the middle east.
But we're *happy* about it because we forgot what
a 20 year war does.

Jim

Are you referring to a war that first involved the US in 1941, by a
Democrat President (Truman), then escalated by another Democrat
President, (Kennedy), seriously escalated by another Democrat
President (LBJ), was spun and twisted by Democrat media that showed
every US victory to be a US loss, turned over the the now nearly
victorious South Vietnamese, and withdrawn from by a Republican
President (Nixon), then was defunded and ultimately lost because of
Democrat Congress critters?

That war?

Gunner

Truman? Did you ever go to school? LOL

Tom

Actually Tom, apparently unlike you..I did. Extraneous crap cut...
.............
Gunner

Perhaps then you would like to cite the school text that
states Truman was president in 1941?

I didn't think so..

Tom

Mea culpa. I should have mentioned that Rosevelt started an oil
boycott against the Japanese in 1941, (Pre-Pearl Harbor) but it was
Truman that involved the military......

500+ lines of avoidance of the issue, cut.
You wrote that President Truman (Democrat) started the "War" in 1941...
He didn't, fact.

Tom

You are unaware of what Mea Culpa means?
Its evident that your agenda of hate and spew is effecting your
judgement.

Gunner

Yeah? How could Truman have "involved" the military in 1941?

Instead of getting all emotional, try for once to bring a
little historical accuracy to your posts, then you may not
have to deal with these critiques which obviously sffect
your blood pressure.

Tom

I did bring historical accuracy to my post. You snipped it for some
bizzare reason only known to you.

Ill repost it so you can pick out the inaccurate parts

Mea culpa. I should have mentioned that Rosevelt started an oil
boycott against the Japanese in 1941, (Pre-Pearl Harbor) but it was
Truman that involved the military..


LOL, you still don't get it! I didn't snip anything that related
to Truman, Truman never gets another mention.

Anything in 1945 is Truman related.

What I suggest you do is go back to total copy & paste, then
we'll have to blame someone else. Your slovenly composition
really aren't the trouble.

Your point is?

Tom
PS Only 50% of US imports of rubber were from French Indo-China
then.

Sure it wasnt 50.001%? Or perhaps 52%...or maybe 55%? Did you round
up or down and how did you average production? 10yr span? 30 yr span?
60 second span?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Gunner

Schizo, that I can believe.