I'm sure I read somewhere that one should not use copper for fuel
lines for gasoline that something happens between the copper and the
gas.
Am I dreaming all this up or what?
Mike in BC

wrote:
I'm sure I read somewhere that one should not use copper for fuel
lines for gasoline that something happens between the copper and the
gas.
Am I dreaming all this up or what?

Copper tends to work-harden and become
brittle where there's high vibration.

Keep the lines short and supported and there will not be an issue.
Barring the ability to keep it short, I use copper for my oil pressure lines
in my car, but I put a little coil to spread any movement out over a longer
span, and supported in a way that it wouldn't vibrate unnecessarily. The
nylon that came with the gauge set got brittle and broke, making a royal
mess inside my car on the way to work one day.
Copper fuel lines were used for years in old machinery, cars, and so
forth. You'll find little really old equipment lacking a copper fuel line
somewhere.

wrote in message
...
| I'm sure I read somewhere that one should not use copper for fuel
| lines for gasoline that something happens between the copper and the
| gas.
| Am I dreaming all this up or what?
| Mike in BC

Since copper has a lower melt temperature than steel it won't hold up in the
event of fire. Then again, neither will a plastic gas tank LOL.

Tony
wrote in message
...
I'm sure I read somewhere that one should not use copper for fuel
lines for gasoline that something happens between the copper and the
gas.
Am I dreaming all this up or what?
Mike in BC

carl mciver wrote:
Keep the lines short and supported and there will not be an issue.
Barring the ability to keep it short, I use copper for my oil
pressure lines in my car, but I put a little coil to spread any
movement out over a longer span, and supported in a way that it
wouldn't vibrate unnecessarily. The nylon that came with the gauge
set got brittle and broke, making a royal mess inside my car on the
way to work one day. Copper fuel lines were used for years in old
machinery, cars, and so forth. You'll find little really old
equipment lacking a copper fuel line somewhere.

wrote in message
...
I'm sure I read somewhere that one should not use copper for fuel
lines for gasoline that something happens between the copper and the
gas.
Am I dreaming all this up or what?
Mike in BC
No chemical reaction whatsoever. Careful design must be used to prevent
fracture due to vibration 'work hardening'.
I had a copper oil pressure gauge line (OEM with this top of the line gauge)
that decided its service life had been exceeded one fine night.
This in itself would not have been a really big deal except this particular
line was in my boat and it decided to let go (right at the instrument panel)
on a particularily nasty night while trying to dock said thirty foot boat in
a 60 Knot SE gale.
The phrase "I didn't know whether to **** or go blind" really applied there!
It is truly amazing how slippery and vision impaired things can get with a
lousy 1/8" stream of hot oil at 80 PSI ripping round the helm - fast
too.
And, by the way, shutting down the engine was NOT an option!
Being a firm believer of the various 'Laws o Murphy' I had that sucker
crimped off in a few seconds with my ever-present Vice Grips. Hell of a mess
anyway.
Bottom line - copper and vibration *can* lead to disaster.
I highly recommend 'fuel rated' tubing!

Regards.
Ken.


--
http://www.rupert.net/~solar
Return address supplied by 'spammotel'
http://www.spammotel.com

wrote: (clip) that something happens between the copper
and the gas.(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You may be remembering something you actually read about copper and *gas,*
but it may have referred to *natural gas* used to heat houses, etc. Natural
gas causes copper to corrode to a black, flaky substance that clogs jets,
etc. I have seen this, 'cause did it before I knew.

On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 04:38:53 GMT, "carl mciver"
wrote:

Keep the lines short and supported and there will not be an issue.
Barring the ability to keep it short, I use copper for my oil pressure lines
in my car, but I put a little coil to spread any movement out over a longer
span, and supported in a way that it wouldn't vibrate unnecessarily.

Or use the system the folks who make aeroplanes learned the hard way
by about the 1930s. Interrupt the run of copper tubing with a short
section of rubber tubing near the ends.

Yes copper is subject to vibration fatigue, but so is steel, and steel
also rusts.

In article 1105070616.b4d5883161fcdcc4115038ebc8747e3d@teran ews, Jim Stewart
says...

wrote:
I'm sure I read somewhere that one should not use copper for fuel
lines for gasoline that something happens between the copper and the
gas.
Am I dreaming all this up or what?

Copper tends to work-harden and become
brittle where there's high vibration.

Ie, near engines. My take on this is there
are plenty of other materials to use instead
of copper, for fuel or oil lines. Sure they
look purty all shined up, but that won't get
you home when the motor pumps all its oil
out on the ground, or a fuel leak hits a hot
manifold and lights off.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 03:43:45 GMT, wrote:
I'm sure I read somewhere that one should not use copper for fuel
lines for gasoline that something happens between the copper and the
gas.

It's not a reaction; copper washers are common on fuel line fittings
(at least in cars with Bosch fuel injection systems). I wouldn't use
it for lines because of copper's habit of work hardening.

Dave Hinz

wrote:

I'm sure I read somewhere that one should not use copper for fuel
lines for gasoline that something happens between the copper and the
gas.
Am I dreaming all this up or what?
Mike in BC


There was a belief by some that copper would make gasoline form gummy
deposits
But I think the "problem" was just poor quality gasoline or maybe some
kind of bioligy
living in a water / gasoline mix.

I don't have a clue as to the facts.

Bill K7NOM

On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 16:34:31 GMT, Bill Janssen wrote:

There was a belief by some that copper would make gasoline form gummy
deposits
But I think the "problem" was just poor quality gasoline or maybe some
kind of bioligy
living in a water / gasoline mix.

I doubt it'd be a biology issue, copper is really good at killing
things.

Are you sure it wasn't copper and acetylene? Any copper alloy that is more
than about 2/3 copper will form explosive compounds with acetylene.

"Footy" wrote in
:

Are you sure it wasn't copper and acetylene? Any copper alloy that is
more than about 2/3 copper will form explosive compounds with
acetylene.




Then I would ask why torch tips are made of copper...;0)

On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 15:31:09 -0600, granpaw wrote:
"Footy" wrote in
:

Are you sure it wasn't copper and acetylene? Any copper alloy that is
more than about 2/3 copper will form explosive compounds with
acetylene.

Then I would ask why torch tips are made of copper...;0)

At that point, burning is pretty much expected and normal, I'd say?

In article ,
Dave Hinz wrote:

On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 15:31:09 -0600, granpaw wrote:
"Footy" wrote in
:

Are you sure it wasn't copper and acetylene? Any copper alloy that is
more than about 2/3 copper will form explosive compounds with
acetylene.

Then I would ask why torch tips are made of copper...;0)

At that point, burning is pretty much expected and normal, I'd say?


Still doesn't explain why torch tips don't "self-light" or explode, even
when running pure acet. through 'em...

--
Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the
subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address.
See http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html for full details.

Don Bruder wrote:
In article ,
Dave Hinz wrote:

On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 15:31:09 -0600, granpaw
wrote:
"Footy" wrote in
:

Are you sure it wasn't copper and acetylene? Any copper alloy
that is more than about 2/3 copper will form explosive compounds
with acetylene.

Then I would ask why torch tips are made of copper...;0)

At that point, burning is pretty much expected and normal, I'd say?


Still doesn't explain why torch tips don't "self-light" or explode,
even when running pure acet. through 'em...
The formation of 'explosive compounds' (a reaction between copper and
acetylene) is a *very* slow process, as I understand it, requiring long term
contact. It is, however, very real and people have been killed. One senario
is the dismantling of old copper lines that have carried acetylene for many
years. One wrong move and BOOM!

Ken.


--
http://www.rupert.net/~solar
Return address supplied by 'spammotel'
http://www.spammotel.com

On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 04:38:53 GMT, "carl mciver"
wrote:

Keep the lines short and supported and there will not be an issue.
Barring the ability to keep it short, I use copper for my oil pressure lines
in my car, but I put a little coil to spread any movement out over a longer
span, and supported in a way that it wouldn't vibrate unnecessarily. The
nylon that came with the gauge set got brittle and broke, making a royal
mess inside my car on the way to work one day.
Copper fuel lines were used for years in old machinery, cars, and so
forth. You'll find little really old equipment lacking a copper fuel line
somewhere.

wrote in message
.. .
| I'm sure I read somewhere that one should not use copper for fuel
| lines for gasoline that something happens between the copper and the
| gas.
| Am I dreaming all this up or what?
| Mike in BC


Ever see a fuel system with a good case of the "greenies"? Todays fuel
and copper lines do NOT get along well. Fuel (gasoline) is hygroscopic
- meaning it attracts and absorbs moisture. Possibly the alcohols and
other oxygenators contribute too, but the copper corrodes (forms freen
oxides), and the green stuff makes a mess of jets and injectors.

On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 05:18:58 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
wrote:


wrote: (clip) that something happens between the copper
and the gas.(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You may be remembering something you actually read about copper and *gas,*
but it may have referred to *natural gas* used to heat houses, etc. Natural
gas causes copper to corrode to a black, flaky substance that clogs jets,
etc. I have seen this, 'cause did it before I knew.

Yet copper is now not only approved, but is the line of choice for
connecting natural gas appliances.

On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 16:34:31 GMT, Bill Janssen
wrote:

wrote:

I'm sure I read somewhere that one should not use copper for fuel
lines for gasoline that something happens between the copper and the
gas.
Am I dreaming all this up or what?
Mike in BC


There was a belief by some that copper would make gasoline form gummy
deposits
But I think the "problem" was just poor quality gasoline or maybe some
kind of bioligy
living in a water / gasoline mix.

I don't have a clue as to the facts.

Bill K7NOM


Detection of Copper Corrosion ASTM (D130)
Detection of Copper Corrosion from Petroleum Products by the Copper
Strip Tarnish Test: Some sulfur compounds that remain in the petroleum
product after refining are corrosive to various metals. This method is
used to determine the corrosivity of petroleum products (including
aviation gasoline, aviation turbine fuel, automotive gasoline and
natural gasoline) to copper.

from:
http://www.octel-starreon.com/Fuel_A...n_Ignition.htm

On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 16:34:31 GMT, Bill Janssen
wrote:

wrote:

I'm sure I read somewhere that one should not use copper for fuel
lines for gasoline that something happens between the copper and the
gas.
Am I dreaming all this up or what?
Mike in BC


There was a belief by some that copper would make gasoline form gummy
deposits
But I think the "problem" was just poor quality gasoline or maybe some
kind of bioligy
living in a water / gasoline mix.

I don't have a clue as to the facts.

Bill K7NOM


See also: http://www.mastrad.com/copper.htm

On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 16:34:31 GMT, Bill Janssen
wrote:

wrote:

I'm sure I read somewhere that one should not use copper for fuel
lines for gasoline that something happens between the copper and the
gas.
Am I dreaming all this up or what?
Mike in BC


There was a belief by some that copper would make gasoline form gummy
deposits
But I think the "problem" was just poor quality gasoline or maybe some
kind of bioligy
living in a water / gasoline mix.

I don't have a clue as to the facts.

Bill K7NOM


Looks like sulphur is the culprit:

Copper Strip Corrosion
ASTM D 130 — Test Method for Detection of Copper Corrosion from
Petroleum Products by the Copper Strip Tarnish Test

D 130 can be used to detect the presence of free sulfur or reactive
sulfur compounds. In this test method, a polished copper strip is
immersed in 30 mL of gasoline and heated to 50°C (122°F) for 3 hours.
The test strip is compared to standard strips and reported on a scale
of one to four (one being best).

It is becoming clear that as sulfur levels in gasolines are forced
lower, many sulfur species that actually provided protection for
copper surfaces are being greatly reduced or eliminated. In extremely
low sulfur content reformulated gasolines, levels of free sulfur or
reactive sulfur compounds that would not have caused a failed copper
strip test in conventional gasolines may now cause a failure. This
factor increases the urgency for minimizing contamination with even
minor levels of free sulfur or reactive sulfur compounds in processing
at the refinery.

In article 2, granpaw says...

Then I would ask why torch tips are made of copper...;0)

Because the reaction that forms copper acetaldehydes is
driven by higher pressures.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

I believe copper may work harden if/as it flexes, and can eventually
crack, and for this reason is dis-recommeded for gasoline. I'm not
aware of any chemical reaction. Both of these ideas are hearsay rather
than expertise on my part.

Mickey also in BC

On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 03:43:45 GMT, wrote:

I'm sure I read somewhere that one should not use copper for fuel
lines for gasoline that something happens between the copper and the
gas.
Am I dreaming all this up or what?
Mike in BC

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 05:18:58 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
wrote:


wrote: (clip) that something happens between the
copper
and the gas.(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You may be remembering something you actually read about copper and
*gas,*
but it may have referred to *natural gas* used to heat houses, etc.
Natural
gas causes copper to corrode to a black, flaky substance that clogs jets,
etc. I have seen this, 'cause did it before I knew.

Yet copper is now not only approved, but is the line of choice for
connecting natural gas appliances.
copper is used on propane, not natural gas, i believe the reaction has to
do with the odorant used in nat gas versus propane.

"Ken Davey" writes:

Bottom line - copper and vibration *can* lead to disaster.
I highly recommend 'fuel rated' tubing!

A similar thing happened on one of the BC Ferries boats a year or two
ago. These use big diesel engines for propulsion. There was a copper
line leading to a fuel pressure gauge that cracked due to work
hardening. It started spraying diesel fuel around, and some of it
landed on the exhaust manifold. Instant fire.

The crew managed to put out the fire with the CO2 extinguishing system,
and the boat was towed back to port with no loss of life. But it could
have been much worse.

Dave

Yeah, I finally found some with the same experiences I have had--Green s**t
inside the line after a summers dis-use..The old Aircraft manuals said--Anneal
copper lines
after 50 hrs of use..( anneal,--heat dull red & plunge in water}

wrote:

On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 04:38:53 GMT, "carl mciver"
wrote:

Keep the lines short and supported and there will not be an issue.
Barring the ability to keep it short, I use copper for my oil pressure lines
in my car, but I put a little coil to spread any movement out over a longer
span, and supported in a way that it wouldn't vibrate unnecessarily. The
nylon that came with the gauge set got brittle and broke, making a royal
mess inside my car on the way to work one day.
Copper fuel lines were used for years in old machinery, cars, and so
forth. You'll find little really old equipment lacking a copper fuel line
somewhere.

wrote in message
.. .
| I'm sure I read somewhere that one should not use copper for fuel
| lines for gasoline that something happens between the copper and the
| gas.
| Am I dreaming all this up or what?
| Mike in BC

Ever see a fuel system with a good case of the "greenies"? Todays fuel
and copper lines do NOT get along well. Fuel (gasoline) is hygroscopic
- meaning it attracts and absorbs moisture. Possibly the alcohols and
other oxygenators contribute too, but the copper corrodes (forms freen
oxides), and the green stuff makes a mess of jets and injectors.

On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 23:01:10 -0600, "Travis Thompson"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 05:18:58 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
wrote:


wrote: (clip) that something happens between the
copper
and the gas.(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You may be remembering something you actually read about copper and
*gas,*
but it may have referred to *natural gas* used to heat houses, etc.
Natural
gas causes copper to corrode to a black, flaky substance that clogs jets,
etc. I have seen this, 'cause did it before I knew.

Yet copper is now not only approved, but is the line of choice for
connecting natural gas appliances.
copper is used on propane, not natural gas, i believe the reaction has to
do with the odorant used in nat gas versus propane.

Sorry, but you are wrong.
From the Wolverine copper tubing site -
B149 code.
The 2000 edition of the Canadian Standards Association B149
Installation Code, permits only three Types of copper tube for above
ground natural gas and propane installations:
Type G/GAS, Type L, and Type K. Bare and plastic-jacketed versions of
these products are available for this purpose.

For underground applications, Type K copper tube, plastic-covered Type
G/GAS or plastic-coated Type L tube are required.


also, from the ccbda site:


The results of a CCBDA survey of gas contractors, have confirmed that
copper tube is the most cost-effective material to choose for natural
gas distribution in residences.Copper is less than half the material
cost of corrugated stainless steel tube (CSST) and is quicker and
easier to install than threaded steel pipe. These factors combine to
give copper the lowest installed cost when compared to the other
materials. For every $100 spent on a copper system, it would cost, on
average, $134 for an equivalent system using threaded steel pipe and
$144 for the system using CSST.


and:

With soft temper copper tube (Type G/GAS or Type L), a contractor can
use a coil of small diameter copper tube, and easily bend it around
ducts and other obstructions, connecting it to an existing gas line.
This ease of bending and small tube size is especially important in
retrofit installations. The time-consuming and messy cutting and
threading of steel pipe is eliminated.



Flexible copper gas tube has several advantages over threaded steel
pipe and CSST. Copper is easier and faster to install than threaded
steel pipe, and unlike CSST, no special fittings or joining techniques
are required. Copper tube and flare fittings supplied by different
manufacturers are completely interchangeable and readily
available—which is not the case with CSST systems.



Operating a natural gas fireplace is easy, and many come with an
optional wall thermostat or remote control. The natural, flickering
flames have all the look and feel of a wood fireplace, and can help
supplement the heating of a home. Natural gas fireplaces are usually
very energy efficient, and are generally much less expensive to
operate than wood or electric fireplaces.
The CCBDA publishes an installer manual, Publication No. 14E, Copper
Natural Gas Systems, as well as Publication No. 35, The Real Cost
Story…Natural Gas Installed Cost Comparison, and No. 37, Installing a
Natural Gas Barbecue. Available free of charge, they are guides for
professionals involved in the design and installation of natural gas
systems. They are also available on the Association’s website at
www.coppercanada.ca. For further information or literature contact the
Association toll-free at 1-877-640-0946

and it's not just in Canada. Florida and Alabama too:
Copper Delivers Gas
Winter 2000

Many builders in Florida are now specifying copper for gas
distribution as a result of a concerted program to promote copper tube
to deliver natural gas within new homes. To builders and contractors,
the main advantage of copper tube over competitive materials is lower
cost, plus the fact that the copper is available in long, flexible
rolls and is easy to install, which can reduce labor costs
tremendously. The program was started in 1995 in Tampa by Peoples Gas,
since acquired by Teco Energy, a division of Tampa Electric Company.

When Peoples Gas launched its drive to promote gas usage, builders
told the utility's executives that gas installation costs for heating
and cooking weren't competitive with electricity. However, Mike
Romano, the utility's vice president of marketing, decided to find out
what other suppliers of natural gas were doing to stay competitive.

At Alagasco, the Alabama gas company, he was attracted to its
two-pound-pressure system for distributing gas with copper tube. "With
a two-pound system, you can install ½-inch or 3/8-inch copper tube
instead of ¾-inch or 1-inch rigid black steel tube," Romano says.

As a result of Romano's investigation, the utility launched its
Peoples Gas Advantage Dealer program, which Romano describes as "a
partnership with developers and contractor-installers to promote gas
service for new homes." The program provides information to builders,
training for installers and sales-support materials for homeowners
about the benefits of a gas home, plus rebates on gas-appliance
installations to defray costs.


I couls add dozens of more citations - but you get my point.

On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 20:05:54 -0500, wrote:

Yet copper is now not only approved, but is the line of choice for
connecting natural gas appliances.

Sure, but that's very low pressure, _and_ low to zero vibration.
Not at all like an automotive application.

On 9 Jan 2005 18:43:47 GMT, Dave Hinz wrote:

On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 20:05:54 -0500, wrote:

Yet copper is now not only approved, but is the line of choice for
connecting natural gas appliances.

Sure, but that's very low pressure, _and_ low to zero vibration.
Not at all like an automotive application.

I would NEVER use copper in an automotive or aircraft application, due
to both the work-hardening/fatique issues and the "greenies".My 1928
Chevy had copper lines. So did my 35 Chevy and 37 Terraplane.
My old 2 stroke lawnmower built in 1957 HAD copper fuel lines.
All of the above had "greenie" problems, and the lawnmower line
cracked. (still have the lawnmower).

Aeroplanes use aluminum fuel lines, which also suffer from work
hardening and fatigue - but the lines MUST be well supported, and
isolated from vibration with rubber flex lines.