"Ignoramus22732" wrote in message
...
I am demolishing a huge 8 kVa UPS. Lots of nice wires, screws etc.

It has a large transformer, it weighs around 200 lbs. It comes from a
that 8 KVA Ferrups UPS. There is a super heavy square shaped copper
wire on it, which, I fancy, could sell for some money. This wire is
something like 3x8 mm in cross section. Very heavy stuff. So, if I
somehow manage to pull the transformer apart, I would, first, able to
throw the steel part to garbage, and second, to get and sell copper
wire. i would also keep some of this copper wire for home uses such as
grounding wire for my generator.

Without taking it apart I will not be able to do anything with this
monstrosity, not even throw it away.

This is a specialty transformer with lots of contacts, so I do not
think that I could sell it. (another, smaller like 50 lbs transformer
is an isolation transformer which I hope to sell for at least
something. Also, there are 8 1.2 farad capacitors)

So... How do I take it apart? It was assembled from steel plates, can
it be therefore disassembled?

i

Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by some guy
"salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no longer safe to
eat. You may want to investigate further what may be inside that transformer
of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps your state's environmental
conservation department, or local department of solid waste could assist in
finding out more. Or, the manufacturer.

"Doug Kanter" wrote:

Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by some guy
"salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no longer safe to
eat. You may want to investigate further what may be inside that
transformer
of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps your state's environmental
conservation department, or local department of solid waste could assist
in
finding out more. Or, the manufacturer.

How many transformers do you have in your house, Doug?
How many of those contain PCBs?
What types of transformers used PCBs, and what was the purpose for the PCBs?

Jon

"Ignoramus22732" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 12:04:05 -0600, Tim Williams
wrote:
snip-----

Hm, I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that transformer steel is not
worth anything. Should I call some scrap yards? Suppose that I have
150 lbs of transformer steel. Are we talking about a $5 value, $10,
$100 etc?

Cores for transformers are generally made from carbon free iron (Armco iron)
so there's no chance that the core can become permanently magnetized. Heat
treated steel has the ability to retain magnetism, whereas carbon free
material does not. Scrap steel is selling for $85/ton right now, and
they'll likely see it as scrap steel. If not, perhaps they'll pay either
light steel prices or cast iron prices. Regardless, it has value. Doesn't
everything, if you have enough of it?

Am I correct though, that the large copper wires are worth something?

Yep, right now they're worth $1.02/lb. Here's a link that will tell you
current market scrap prices.

http://www.recycle.net/price/metals.html


Harold

On 1/3/2005 1:37 PM US(ET), Jon Danniken took fingers to keys, and typed
the following:

"Doug Kanter" wrote:


Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by some guy
"salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no longer safe to
eat. You may want to investigate further what may be inside that


transformer


of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps your state's environmental
conservation department, or local department of solid waste could assist


in


finding out more. Or, the manufacturer.



How many transformers do you have in your house, Doug?
How many of those contain PCBs?
What types of transformers used PCBs, and what was the purpose for the PCBs?

Jon

http://www.ehso.com/PCB_App_A.htm

--
Bill

"Jon Danniken" wrote in message
...
"Doug Kanter" wrote:

Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by some guy
"salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no longer safe to
eat. You may want to investigate further what may be inside that
transformer
of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps your state's environmental
conservation department, or local department of solid waste could assist
in
finding out more. Or, the manufacturer.

How many transformers do you have in your house, Doug?
How many of those contain PCBs?
What types of transformers used PCBs, and what was the purpose for the
PCBs?

Jon


Question 1: Doesn't matter. I have no intention of disassembling them.

Question 2: Probably none, but none of the transformers in my home are older
than 3-4 years, except the tiny one that handles the doorbell. I doubt PCB's
are permitted in small household transformers at this stage, considering
what we know about them.

Question 3: The oil in older, larger transformers was there for either
cooling or insulation - I don't recall, and it doesn't matter, since it's
just a point of interest. But, the PCBs were there as a byproduct, not
because they had a purpose.

What's YOUR point? That, knowing what we do about these chemicals, we should
be stupid, pretend the knowledge doesn't exist, and be careless?

"Doug Kanter" wrote:
"Jon Danniken" wrote:
"Doug Kanter" wrote:

Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by some
guy
"salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no longer safe
to
eat. You may want to investigate further what may be inside that
transformer
of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps your state's environmental
conservation department, or local department of solid waste could
assist
in
finding out more. Or, the manufacturer.

How many transformers do you have in your house, Doug?
How many of those contain PCBs?
What types of transformers used PCBs, and what was the purpose for the
PCBs?

Jon


Question 1: Doesn't matter. I have no intention of disassembling them.

Question 2: Probably none, but none of the transformers in my home are
older
than 3-4 years, except the tiny one that handles the doorbell. I doubt
PCB's
are permitted in small household transformers at this stage, considering
what we know about them.

Question 3: The oil in older, larger transformers was there for either
cooling or insulation - I don't recall, and it doesn't matter, since it's
just a point of interest. But, the PCBs were there as a byproduct, not
because they had a purpose.

What's YOUR point? That, knowing what we do about these chemicals, we
should
be stupid, pretend the knowledge doesn't exist, and be careless?

My point is that I suspected you of being a reactionary man who is unable to
consider a topic rationally, based upon the facts in evidence, without
launching into a pre-programmed tirade based upon emotional supposition and
lack of knowledge.

That you are unwilling to answer the very basic questions that I asked you
WRT transformers further demonstrates this, and I thank you for further
revealing yourself with your response.

I can't "fix" the problems that you seem determined to expose to the world,
Doug,, but perhaps you would be a bit better off it you would at least
educate yourself a bit before exposing your ignorance in any particular area
of knowledge.

Of course, you might very well enjoy espousing your ignorance to the world;
it seems to be a popular pastime with your type.

Jon

On 3 Jan 2005 18:29:17 GMT, Ignoramus22732
wrote:



Hm, all that is inside this transformer is steel, copper, varnish, and
paper. Maybe you are referring to hyooge transformers filled with
liquids? In any case, I will appreciate input regarding this issue, as
I do not want to run afoul of the laws.

PCB's are found in utility transformers immersed in a dielectric
fluid. It's not an issue with dry transformers like yours.

"Ignoramus22732" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 10:49:43 -0800, Harold & Susan Vordos
wrote:

"Ignoramus22732" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 12:04:05 -0600, Tim Williams
wrote:
snip-----

Hm, I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that transformer steel is not
worth anything. Should I call some scrap yards? Suppose that I have
150 lbs of transformer steel. Are we talking about a $5 value, $10,
$100 etc?

Cores for transformers are generally made from carbon free iron (Armco
iron)
so there's no chance that the core can become permanently magnetized.
Heat
treated steel has the ability to retain magnetism, whereas carbon free
material does not. Scrap steel is selling for $85/ton right now, and
they'll likely see it as scrap steel. If not, perhaps they'll pay
either
light steel prices or cast iron prices. Regardless, it has value.
Doesn't
everything, if you have enough of it?

So, best case, $5 or so for the core. Not worth even opening yellow
pages.

Am I correct though, that the large copper wires are worth something?

Yep, right now they're worth $1.02/lb. Here's a link that will tell
you current market scrap prices.

http://www.recycle.net/price/metals.html

Now, that's not bad at all. Thanks. Should I look up yellow pages under
recycling, or perhaps find a buyer for bare copper wire on ebay?
Again, in any case I will keep a substantial quantity for my future
projects. One current project would use this for generator ground.

i


I can't imagine you'd have much advantage trying to sell the copper on ebay.
You'd likely lose money on the deal by the time you paid for the listing.
Look in the yellow pages for yards that recycle metals. When you find the
right one, you should be able to sell the copper and the iron at the same
time. It's not much money for the iron, but it will pay for the gas for your
trip, so take it along, anyway, or ask them by telephone if they accept such
things, and what they pay. It doesn't hurt to ask each yard what they pay.
Some pay more than others.

Harold

"Doug Kanter" wrote:

Question 3: The oil in older, larger transformers was there for either
cooling or insulation - I don't recall, and it doesn't matter, since it's
just a point of interest. But, the PCBs were there as a byproduct, not
because they had a purpose.

Nope. The chemicals were there to facilitate heat transfer,
especially in larger grid transformers. Needless to say,
non-conductive liquids with a high boiling point are required for the
task.

http://www.ehso.com/EHSO_PCB.htm

Characteristics and Uses of PCBs

PCBs belong to a family of organic compounds known as chlorinated
hydrocarbons. Key characteristics include: high boiling point, high
degree of chemical stability, low flammability, and low electric
conductivity. Between 1926-29 and 1977, PCB-containing products were
manufactured for use in applications where stable, fire-resistant,
heat-transfer properties were demanded. The most extensive use of PCBs
occurred in dielectric fluids. Such fluids typically have the
following characteristics: a heavy oil appearance, high boiling point,
high chemical stability, high flash point, low electrical
conductivity, and low water solubility. PCBs were also used as
plasticizers and additives in lubricating and cutting fluids. Most
PCBs were sold for use as dielectric fluids (insulating liquids) in
electric transformers and capacitors. Other uses included heat
transfer fluid, hydraulic fluid, dye carriers in carbonless copy
paper, plasticizers in paints, adhesives, and caulking compounds, and
filters in investment casting wax. Although PCBs are no longer
commercially made in the United States, many electric transformers and
capacitors once filled with PCBs are still in service. Additionally,
PCBs currently are being inadvertently produced as byproducts during
the manufacture of certain organic chemicals. PCB Manufacturers and
Trade Names lists some of the manufacturers, who made PCBs and the
trade names of their products.

Why Are PCBs Harmful to Human Health and the Environment
When released into the environment, PCBs do not easily break apart and
form new chemical arrangements (i.e., they are not readily
biodegradable). Instead they persist for many years, bioaccumulate,
and bioconcentrate in organisms. Well documented tests on laboratory
animals show that various levels of PCBs cause reproductive effects,
gastric disorders, skin lesions, and cancerous tumors. Exposure to
PCBs in humans can cause chloracne (a painful, disfiguring skin
ailment), liver damage, nausea, dizziness, eye irritation, and
bronchitis.

Ignoramus22732 wrote:
It has a large transformer, it weighs around 200 lbs. It comes from a
that 8 KVA Ferrups UPS. There is a super heavy square shaped copper
wire on it, which, I fancy, could sell for some money.

Why not offer the whole thing to a scrap-metal dealer? When they melt
it down they'll recover the different metals...

So... How do I take it apart? It was assembled from steel plates, can
it be therefore disassembled?

Yeah, remove any bolts, and start splitting the iron core segments
apart (they are probably alternating meshed E and I pieces). Once you
get the first few out the rest will come easier. I'd use an
appropriately sized screwdriver and hammer...

"Jon Danniken" wrote in message
...
"Doug Kanter" wrote:
"Jon Danniken" wrote:
"Doug Kanter" wrote:

Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by some
guy
"salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no longer safe
to
eat. You may want to investigate further what may be inside that
transformer
of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps your state's environmental
conservation department, or local department of solid waste could
assist
in
finding out more. Or, the manufacturer.

How many transformers do you have in your house, Doug?
How many of those contain PCBs?
What types of transformers used PCBs, and what was the purpose for the
PCBs?

Jon


Question 1: Doesn't matter. I have no intention of disassembling them.

Question 2: Probably none, but none of the transformers in my home are
older
than 3-4 years, except the tiny one that handles the doorbell. I doubt
PCB's
are permitted in small household transformers at this stage, considering
what we know about them.

Question 3: The oil in older, larger transformers was there for either
cooling or insulation - I don't recall, and it doesn't matter, since it's
just a point of interest. But, the PCBs were there as a byproduct, not
because they had a purpose.

What's YOUR point? That, knowing what we do about these chemicals, we
should
be stupid, pretend the knowledge doesn't exist, and be careless?

My point is that I suspected you of being a reactionary man who is unable
to
consider a topic rationally, based upon the facts in evidence, without
launching into a pre-programmed tirade based upon emotional supposition
and
lack of knowledge.

That you are unwilling to answer the very basic questions that I asked you
WRT transformers further demonstrates this, and I thank you for further
revealing yourself with your response.

I can't "fix" the problems that you seem determined to expose to the
world,
Doug,, but perhaps you would be a bit better off it you would at least
educate yourself a bit before exposing your ignorance in any particular
area
of knowledge.

Of course, you might very well enjoy espousing your ignorance to the
world;
it seems to be a popular pastime with your type.

Jon


Reactionary? Nonsense. The OP stated that he has a transformer weighing
around 200 lbs. While this does not necessarily mean it's different from the
one in my furnace, dishwasher or doorbell, it also does not mean it's the
same. Neither you nor I know exactly what he has. You know that.

As far as "rational", I'm sure you're aware that there's an entire
generation that has no idea what sort of chemistry experiments went on in
this country before people finally woke up. Perhaps the Love Canal situation
was the wakeup call. It's entirely possible that the OP had NO idea about
what he might have in his possession.

Why do you have a problem with suggesting that he proceed with caution? Do
you believe that all the research into the dangers of PCBs are junk science?

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

snip-------

Question 3: The oil in older, larger transformers was there for either
cooling or insulation - I don't recall, and it doesn't matter, since it's
just a point of interest. But, the PCBs were there as a byproduct, not
because they had a purpose.

They were intentionally used. As I understand it, PCB revolutionized the
transformer and capacitor industry when they were introduced. I seem to
recall that they were an excellent dielectric and had a very high flash
point, so fire hazards were reduced. They were a purpose made substance
sold under various trade names.

What's YOUR point? That, knowing what we do about these chemicals, we
should
be stupid, pretend the knowledge doesn't exist, and be careless?

All you have to do is end up with a PCB filled transformer as I did for this
to come directly in to focus. Years ago I was given a "free" induction
furnace power supply. The donor had me sign a waiver because the supply
had a mercury spark gap included, but failed to mention that the
transformer, along with the huge capacitors, were filled with PCB's. The
law as stated at that time dictated that if any PCB filled device started
leaking, it was mandatory for the item to be disposed of by within thirty
day by proper procedures. I had to transport the power supply from one
state to another, and when it got there there were multiple wet spots from
the escaping PCB. Long story short, I talked to EPA to find out where I
stood and found out that it was illegal to dispose of such items by passing
them on to others, so I called the "donor" and informed him that he had a
serious problem on his hands. Disposal cost ran right at $3,000 for 800
pounds of transformer and capacitors, which was born by the donor. Don't
take PCB's lightly.

Harold

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

snip-------

Question 3: The oil in older, larger transformers was there for either
cooling or insulation - I don't recall, and it doesn't matter, since it's
just a point of interest. But, the PCBs were there as a byproduct, not
because they had a purpose.

They were intentionally used. As I understand it, PCB revolutionized the
transformer and capacitor industry when they were introduced. I seem to
recall that they were an excellent dielectric and had a very high flash
point, so fire hazards were reduced. They were a purpose made
substance
sold under various trade names.

What's YOUR point? That, knowing what we do about these chemicals, we
should
be stupid, pretend the knowledge doesn't exist, and be careless?

All you have to do is end up with a PCB filled transformer as I did for
this
to come directly in to focus. Years ago I was given a "free" induction
furnace power supply. The donor had me sign a waiver because the supply
had a mercury spark gap included, but failed to mention that the
transformer, along with the huge capacitors, were filled with PCB's.
The
law as stated at that time dictated that if any PCB filled device started
leaking, it was mandatory for the item to be disposed of by within thirty
day by proper procedures. I had to transport the power supply from one
state to another, and when it got there there were multiple wet spots from
the escaping PCB. Long story short, I talked to EPA to find out where
I
stood and found out that it was illegal to dispose of such items by
passing
them on to others, so I called the "donor" and informed him that he had a
serious problem on his hands. Disposal cost ran right at $3,000 for 800
pounds of transformer and capacitors, which was born by the donor.
Don't
take PCB's lightly.

Harold



You mean all the research was not fiction created by left-wing atheist
tree-hugging hippies? :-)

"Ignoramus22732" wrote in message
...
I have some large capacitors also, how do I know if they have PCBs?

i
These are likely candidates for PCB, depending on their age. They should be
labelled with a date code; anything prior to 1973 will contain PCB.

If you care to post all the capacitor label information here, I can probably
determine yes or no.
--
Regards, Chas.


To Email, replace 'xxx' with tango papa golf.

Doug Kanter wrote:
"Ignoramus22732" wrote in message
...

I am demolishing a huge 8 kVa UPS. Lots of nice wires, screws etc.

It has a large transformer, it weighs around 200 lbs. It comes from a
that 8 KVA Ferrups UPS. There is a super heavy square shaped copper
wire on it, which, I fancy, could sell for some money. This wire is
something like 3x8 mm in cross section. Very heavy stuff. So, if I
somehow manage to pull the transformer apart, I would, first, able to
throw the steel part to garbage, and second, to get and sell copper
wire. i would also keep some of this copper wire for home uses such as
grounding wire for my generator.

Without taking it apart I will not be able to do anything with this
monstrosity, not even throw it away.

This is a specialty transformer with lots of contacts, so I do not
think that I could sell it. (another, smaller like 50 lbs transformer
is an isolation transformer which I hope to sell for at least
something. Also, there are 8 1.2 farad capacitors)

So... How do I take it apart? It was assembled from steel plates, can
it be therefore disassembled?

i


Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by some guy
"salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no longer safe to
eat. You may want to investigate further what may be inside that transformer
of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps your state's environmental
conservation department, or local department of solid waste could assist in
finding out more. Or, the manufacturer.


I thought PCB's were only used as a liquid insulating and cooling
substance, like for instance in the big cans up on the telephone poles
and substations. I imagine this thing does not involve any PCB'sdue to
the way he describes it as being in the open versus being submerged in
an oily liquid

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 18:20:58 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Ignoramus22732" wrote in message
...
I am demolishing a huge 8 kVa UPS. Lots of nice wires, screws etc.

It has a large transformer, it weighs around 200 lbs. It comes from a
that 8 KVA Ferrups UPS. There is a super heavy square shaped copper
wire on it, which, I fancy, could sell for some money. This wire is
something like 3x8 mm in cross section. Very heavy stuff. So, if I
somehow manage to pull the transformer apart, I would, first, able to
throw the steel part to garbage, and second, to get and sell copper
wire. i would also keep some of this copper wire for home uses such as
grounding wire for my generator.

Without taking it apart I will not be able to do anything with this
monstrosity, not even throw it away.

This is a specialty transformer with lots of contacts, so I do not
think that I could sell it. (another, smaller like 50 lbs transformer
is an isolation transformer which I hope to sell for at least
something. Also, there are 8 1.2 farad capacitors)

So... How do I take it apart? It was assembled from steel plates, can
it be therefore disassembled?

i

Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by some guy
"salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no longer safe to
eat. You may want to investigate further what may be inside that transformer
of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps your state's environmental
conservation department, or local department of solid waste could assist in
finding out more. Or, the manufacturer.

From OP's original description I don't think that's a problem here.
The PCBs are in the oil in some transformers. If the transformer
wasn't immersed in an oil bath, no problem.

(If there was oil in this thing there's a significant problem. Not
only do PCBs contaminate the environment, they can give you a nasty
skin condition if you handle a quantity of them.)

--RC

"Sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. It just yells
'can't you remember anything I've told you?' and lets
fly with a club.
-- John W. Cambell Jr.

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 10:37:23 -0800, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:

"Doug Kanter" wrote:

Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by some guy
"salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no longer safe to
eat. You may want to investigate further what may be inside that
transformer
of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps your state's environmental
conservation department, or local department of solid waste could assist
in
finding out more. Or, the manufacturer.

How many transformers do you have in your house, Doug?
How many of those contain PCBs?
What types of transformers used PCBs, and what was the purpose for the PCBs?

Jon

When someone refers to a 'large' transformer, it's reasonable to ask
if there was any oil in it. The pole mounted transformers utilities
use used to have PCBs in them, for example.

However in this case there wasn't any oil, so no problem.

--RC

"Sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. It just yells
'can't you remember anything I've told you?' and lets
fly with a club.
-- John W. Cambell Jr.

"Steven" wrote in message
news:%jjCd.22850$rL3.9862@trnddc03...
Doug Kanter wrote:
"Ignoramus22732" wrote in message
...

I am demolishing a huge 8 kVa UPS. Lots of nice wires, screws etc.

It has a large transformer, it weighs around 200 lbs. It comes from a
that 8 KVA Ferrups UPS. There is a super heavy square shaped copper
wire on it, which, I fancy, could sell for some money. This wire is
something like 3x8 mm in cross section. Very heavy stuff. So, if I
somehow manage to pull the transformer apart, I would, first, able to
throw the steel part to garbage, and second, to get and sell copper
wire. i would also keep some of this copper wire for home uses such as
grounding wire for my generator.

Without taking it apart I will not be able to do anything with this
monstrosity, not even throw it away.

This is a specialty transformer with lots of contacts, so I do not
think that I could sell it. (another, smaller like 50 lbs transformer
is an isolation transformer which I hope to sell for at least
something. Also, there are 8 1.2 farad capacitors)

So... How do I take it apart? It was assembled from steel plates, can
it be therefore disassembled?

i


Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by some guy
"salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no longer safe to
eat. You may want to investigate further what may be inside that
transformer of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps your state's
environmental conservation department, or local department of solid waste
could assist in finding out more. Or, the manufacturer.
I thought PCB's were only used as a liquid insulating and cooling
substance, like for instance in the big cans up on the telephone poles and
substations. I imagine this thing does not involve any PCB'sdue to the
way he describes it as being in the open versus being submerged in an oily
liquid


Some others who have responded have indicated that the capacitors may
contain PCBs. I simply threw out the other possibility because it's worth
looking into, especially because knowledge costs nothing.

Is there some particular reason you can't use the UPS as it was
origionally intended? I bought a 14 kva unit on Ebay for $41 and after
$125 for new batteries have unit powering my electronic assembly
pick-and place machine at 230 VAC. I can pull the plug and the machine
just keeps on running.

If it only lacks batteries, it is worth at least $50.

The input/output are changed by internal wiring plus software
parameters.

Just wondering, Paul

Ignoramus22732 wrote:
I am demolishing a huge 8 kVa UPS. Lots of nice wires, screws etc.

It has a large transformer, it weighs around 200 lbs. It comes from a
that 8 KVA Ferrups UPS. There is a super heavy square shaped copper
wire on it, which, I fancy, could sell for some money. This wire is
something like 3x8 mm in cross section. Very heavy stuff. So, if I
somehow manage to pull the transformer apart, I would, first, able to
throw the steel part to garbage, and second, to get and sell copper
wire. i would also keep some of this copper wire for home uses such
as
grounding wire for my generator.

Without taking it apart I will not be able to do anything with this
monstrosity, not even throw it away.

This is a specialty transformer with lots of contacts, so I do not
think that I could sell it. (another, smaller like 50 lbs transformer
is an isolation transformer which I hope to sell for at least
something. Also, there are 8 1.2 farad capacitors)

So... How do I take it apart? It was assembled from steel plates, can
it be therefore disassembled?

i

Jesus guyz. The friggin' thing is a "dry-type" transformer! There are no
(read my lips) ***NO*** PCBs in a dry type transformer.

The copper isn't worth more than 5 cents per pound. It is classed a mixed
copper and nobody wants it.

The laminations are usually and E and an I type on each layer reversed
positioned for each layer.


"willshak" wrote in message
...
On 1/3/2005 1:37 PM US(ET), Jon Danniken took fingers to keys, and typed
the following:

"Doug Kanter" wrote:


Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by some
guy
"salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no longer safe
to
eat. You may want to investigate further what may be inside that


transformer


of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps your state's environmental
conservation department, or local department of solid waste could assist


in


finding out more. Or, the manufacturer.



How many transformers do you have in your house, Doug?
How many of those contain PCBs?
What types of transformers used PCBs, and what was the purpose for the
PCBs?

Jon

http://www.ehso.com/PCB_App_A.htm

--
Bill

There is no liquid in a "dry-type" transforemt and therefore no PCBs

PCB were only used in large transformers full of cooling oil for usage
indoors because of the flammablity rating of the PCB oils.

Did you know, **NO***, I repeat ***NO*** death has ever been related to
PCBs?


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Jon Danniken" wrote in message
...
"Doug Kanter" wrote:
"Jon Danniken" wrote:
"Doug Kanter" wrote:

Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by
some
guy
"salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no longer
safe
to
eat. You may want to investigate further what may be inside that
transformer
of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps your state's environmental
conservation department, or local department of solid waste could
assist
in
finding out more. Or, the manufacturer.

How many transformers do you have in your house, Doug?
How many of those contain PCBs?
What types of transformers used PCBs, and what was the purpose for
the
PCBs?

Jon


Question 1: Doesn't matter. I have no intention of disassembling them.

Question 2: Probably none, but none of the transformers in my home are
older
than 3-4 years, except the tiny one that handles the doorbell. I doubt
PCB's
are permitted in small household transformers at this stage,
considering
what we know about them.

Question 3: The oil in older, larger transformers was there for either
cooling or insulation - I don't recall, and it doesn't matter, since
it's
just a point of interest. But, the PCBs were there as a byproduct, not
because they had a purpose.

What's YOUR point? That, knowing what we do about these chemicals, we
should
be stupid, pretend the knowledge doesn't exist, and be careless?

My point is that I suspected you of being a reactionary man who is
unable
to
consider a topic rationally, based upon the facts in evidence, without
launching into a pre-programmed tirade based upon emotional supposition
and
lack of knowledge.

That you are unwilling to answer the very basic questions that I asked
you
WRT transformers further demonstrates this, and I thank you for further
revealing yourself with your response.

I can't "fix" the problems that you seem determined to expose to the
world,
Doug,, but perhaps you would be a bit better off it you would at least
educate yourself a bit before exposing your ignorance in any particular
area
of knowledge.

Of course, you might very well enjoy espousing your ignorance to the
world;
it seems to be a popular pastime with your type.

Jon


Reactionary? Nonsense. The OP stated that he has a transformer weighing
around 200 lbs. While this does not necessarily mean it's different from
the
one in my furnace, dishwasher or doorbell, it also does not mean it's the
same. Neither you nor I know exactly what he has. You know that.

As far as "rational", I'm sure you're aware that there's an entire
generation that has no idea what sort of chemistry experiments went on in
this country before people finally woke up. Perhaps the Love Canal
situation
was the wakeup call. It's entirely possible that the OP had NO idea about
what he might have in his possession.

Why do you have a problem with suggesting that he proceed with caution? Do
you believe that all the research into the dangers of PCBs are junk
science?

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 18:55:33 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Jon Danniken" wrote in message
...
"Doug Kanter" wrote:

Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by some guy
"salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no longer safe to
eat. You may want to investigate further what may be inside that
transformer
of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps your state's environmental
conservation department, or local department of solid waste could assist
in
finding out more. Or, the manufacturer.

How many transformers do you have in your house, Doug?
How many of those contain PCBs?
What types of transformers used PCBs, and what was the purpose for the
PCBs?

Jon


Question 1: Doesn't matter. I have no intention of disassembling them.

If you had transformers with PCBs in them, it most definitely _would_
matter. Under certain conditions transformers will dissassemble
themselves in a rather spectacular fashion. And believe me, you would
_not_ want to live in a house where that had happened -- even if the
authorities would let you stay on.


Question 2: Probably none, but none of the transformers in my home are older
than 3-4 years,

Immaterial. Even if they were 50 years old the transformers you'd find
in a home would not have PCBs in them. PCBs were only used in large or
highly specialized electrical equipment.

except the tiny one that handles the doorbell. I doubt PCB's
are permitted in small household transformers at this stage, considering
what we know about them.

PCBs aren't permitted in transformers of any size. Period. We have to
make do with less effective substitutes.

Question 3: The oil in older, larger transformers was there for either
cooling or insulation - I don't recall, and it doesn't matter, since it's
just a point of interest. But, the PCBs were there as a byproduct, not
because they had a purpose.

Well, no. The PCBs were added to the oil in electricial equipment
because it helped to prevent arcing in the transformer. It was
anything but a byproduct and was considered a major advance in the
early 1930s when these products were introduced.

What's YOUR point? That, knowing what we do about these chemicals, we should
be stupid, pretend the knowledge doesn't exist, and be careless?

MY point is that both of you need to simmer down. It's perfectly
reasonable to ask if a 'large' surplus transformer contains oil. But
you can't assume that it does. Or, if it does contain oil, that the
oil is laced with PCBs. If the transformer is less than about 25 or 30
years old, it does not, no matter how much oil is in it.

By the same token it's reasonable to be concerned about PCBs in the
environment. They may have gotten a bum rap on how dangerous they are
to humans, but the stuff is still a prime example of a bioconcentrator
and it makes damn good sense to keep it out of the environment.

--RC


"Sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. It just yells
'can't you remember anything I've told you?' and lets
fly with a club.
-- John W. Cambell Jr.

All minor ailments and no deaths have ever been attributed to it.

Did you wash your hair in detergent this week?

"Harry Chickpea" wrote in message
news:41daa393.526844057@localhost...
"Doug Kanter" wrote:

Question 3: The oil in older, larger transformers was there for either
cooling or insulation - I don't recall, and it doesn't matter, since it's
just a point of interest. But, the PCBs were there as a byproduct, not
because they had a purpose.

Nope. The chemicals were there to facilitate heat transfer,
especially in larger grid transformers. Needless to say,
non-conductive liquids with a high boiling point are required for the
task.

http://www.ehso.com/EHSO_PCB.htm

Characteristics and Uses of PCBs

PCBs belong to a family of organic compounds known as chlorinated
hydrocarbons. Key characteristics include: high boiling point, high
degree of chemical stability, low flammability, and low electric
conductivity. Between 1926-29 and 1977, PCB-containing products were
manufactured for use in applications where stable, fire-resistant,
heat-transfer properties were demanded. The most extensive use of PCBs
occurred in dielectric fluids. Such fluids typically have the
following characteristics: a heavy oil appearance, high boiling point,
high chemical stability, high flash point, low electrical
conductivity, and low water solubility. PCBs were also used as
plasticizers and additives in lubricating and cutting fluids. Most
PCBs were sold for use as dielectric fluids (insulating liquids) in
electric transformers and capacitors. Other uses included heat
transfer fluid, hydraulic fluid, dye carriers in carbonless copy
paper, plasticizers in paints, adhesives, and caulking compounds, and
filters in investment casting wax. Although PCBs are no longer
commercially made in the United States, many electric transformers and
capacitors once filled with PCBs are still in service. Additionally,
PCBs currently are being inadvertently produced as byproducts during
the manufacture of certain organic chemicals. PCB Manufacturers and
Trade Names lists some of the manufacturers, who made PCBs and the
trade names of their products.

Why Are PCBs Harmful to Human Health and the Environment
When released into the environment, PCBs do not easily break apart and
form new chemical arrangements (i.e., they are not readily
biodegradable). Instead they persist for many years, bioaccumulate,
and bioconcentrate in organisms. Well documented tests on laboratory
animals show that various levels of PCBs cause reproductive effects,
gastric disorders, skin lesions, and cancerous tumors. Exposure to
PCBs in humans can cause chloracne (a painful, disfiguring skin
ailment), liver damage, nausea, dizziness, eye irritation, and
bronchitis.

Hey moron! The copper is considered "mixed" copper and is worth about $0.02
per pound, if he seperates it all.

IOW: they don't want it.

William P.N. Smith wrote in message
...
Ignoramus22732 wrote:
It has a large transformer, it weighs around 200 lbs. It comes from a
that 8 KVA Ferrups UPS. There is a super heavy square shaped copper
wire on it, which, I fancy, could sell for some money.

Why not offer the whole thing to a scrap-metal dealer? When they melt
it down they'll recover the different metals...

So... How do I take it apart? It was assembled from steel plates, can
it be therefore disassembled?

Yeah, remove any bolts, and start splitting the iron core segments
apart (they are probably alternating meshed E and I pieces). Once you
get the first few out the rest will come easier. I'd use an
appropriately sized screwdriver and hammer...

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 20:02:00 GMT, (Harry
Chickpea) wrote:

"Doug Kanter" wrote:

Question 3: The oil in older, larger transformers was there for either
cooling or insulation - I don't recall, and it doesn't matter, since it's
just a point of interest. But, the PCBs were there as a byproduct, not
because they had a purpose.

Nope. The chemicals were there to facilitate heat transfer,
especially in larger grid transformers. Needless to say,
non-conductive liquids with a high boiling point are required for the
task.

http://www.ehso.com/EHSO_PCB.htm

Characteristics and Uses of PCBs

PCBs belong to a family of organic compounds known as chlorinated
hydrocarbons. Key characteristics include: high boiling point, high
degree of chemical stability, low flammability, and low electric
conductivity. Between 1926-29 and 1977, PCB-containing products were
manufactured for use in applications where stable, fire-resistant,
heat-transfer properties were demanded. The most extensive use of PCBs
occurred in dielectric fluids. Such fluids typically have the
following characteristics: a heavy oil appearance, high boiling point,
high chemical stability, high flash point, low electrical
conductivity, and low water solubility. PCBs were also used as
plasticizers and additives in lubricating and cutting fluids. Most
PCBs were sold for use as dielectric fluids (insulating liquids) in
electric transformers and capacitors. Other uses included heat
transfer fluid, hydraulic fluid, dye carriers in carbonless copy
paper, plasticizers in paints, adhesives, and caulking compounds, and
filters in investment casting wax. Although PCBs are no longer
commercially made in the United States, many electric transformers and
capacitors once filled with PCBs are still in service. Additionally,
PCBs currently are being inadvertently produced as byproducts during
the manufacture of certain organic chemicals. PCB Manufacturers and
Trade Names lists some of the manufacturers, who made PCBs and the
trade names of their products.

Why Are PCBs Harmful to Human Health and the Environment
When released into the environment, PCBs do not easily break apart and
form new chemical arrangements (i.e., they are not readily
biodegradable). Instead they persist for many years, bioaccumulate,
and bioconcentrate in organisms. Well documented tests on laboratory
animals show that various levels of PCBs cause reproductive effects,
gastric disorders, skin lesions, and cancerous tumors. Exposure to
PCBs in humans can cause chloracne (a painful, disfiguring skin
ailment), liver damage, nausea, dizziness, eye irritation, and
bronchitis.

While this is basically correct, I suspect it is somewhat out of date.
IIRC, electrical equipment containing PCBs had to be replaced by a
certain date, so there should be no transformers or other equipment
still in service in the US containing PCBs.

I believe that the phase-out was done according to type of equipment
because all the substitutes for PCBs are considerably inferior. (Or at
least that was the case in the lat 70s and early 80s.) The last to go,
I believe, were transformers and such in the basements of large
buildings where the potential damage from a fire was very high.

(Of course that had its own dangers. There was a well publicized case
in the 80s of a transformer fire in the basement of a large building
in New York. The fire did a lot of damage, but the PCB contamination
caused a lot more damage.)

Also, more recent studies have called into question the cancer-causing
effects of PCBs. I believe the general scientific opinion today is
that the link between cancer and PCB exposure is now considered
unproven. (Not that you'd know that from the environmentalists web
sites.) However the rest of the health effects mentioned are
definitely real.
"Sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. It just yells
'can't you remember anything I've told you?' and lets
fly with a club.
-- John W. Cambell Jr.

On 3 Jan 2005 20:15:00 GMT, Ignoramus22732
wrote:

I have some large capacitors also, how do I know if they have PCBs?

i

Make a note of the serial numbers and contact the manufacturer. If
they do contain PCBs and they're not leaking, get rid of them
immediately -- properly.

The manufacturer may have that information on a web site.

--RC
"Sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. It just yells
'can't you remember anything I've told you?' and lets
fly with a club.
-- John W. Cambell Jr.

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 20:15:28 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

snip-------

Question 3: The oil in older, larger transformers was there for either
cooling or insulation - I don't recall, and it doesn't matter, since it's
just a point of interest. But, the PCBs were there as a byproduct, not
because they had a purpose.

They were intentionally used. As I understand it, PCB revolutionized the
transformer and capacitor industry when they were introduced. I seem to
recall that they were an excellent dielectric and had a very high flash
point, so fire hazards were reduced. They were a purpose made
substance
sold under various trade names.

What's YOUR point? That, knowing what we do about these chemicals, we
should
be stupid, pretend the knowledge doesn't exist, and be careless?

All you have to do is end up with a PCB filled transformer as I did for
this
to come directly in to focus. Years ago I was given a "free" induction
furnace power supply. The donor had me sign a waiver because the supply
had a mercury spark gap included, but failed to mention that the
transformer, along with the huge capacitors, were filled with PCB's.
The
law as stated at that time dictated that if any PCB filled device started
leaking, it was mandatory for the item to be disposed of by within thirty
day by proper procedures. I had to transport the power supply from one
state to another, and when it got there there were multiple wet spots from
the escaping PCB. Long story short, I talked to EPA to find out where
I
stood and found out that it was illegal to dispose of such items by
passing
them on to others, so I called the "donor" and informed him that he had a
serious problem on his hands. Disposal cost ran right at $3,000 for 800
pounds of transformer and capacitors, which was born by the donor.
Don't
take PCB's lightly.

Harold



You mean all the research was not fiction created by left-wing atheist
tree-hugging hippies? :-)

No, but some of that research -- or more correctly the conclusions
drawn from that research -- was later proven incorrect. This is
something the left-wing, atheist, tree-hugging hippies will not admit.

(As an aside, both sides in the environmental debate have made a
cottage industry out of discrediting scientific studies supporting the
other side's position. It takes some very careful reading to separate
the solidly supported positions from the speculative ones and those
from the junk science.)

--RC
"Sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. It just yells
'can't you remember anything I've told you?' and lets
fly with a club.
-- John W. Cambell Jr.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Jon Danniken" wrote in message
...
"Doug Kanter" wrote:
"Jon Danniken" wrote:
"Doug Kanter" wrote:

Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by some
guy
"salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no longer
safe
to
eat. You may want to investigate further what may be inside that
transformer
of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps your state's environmental
conservation department, or local department of solid waste could
assist
in
finding out more. Or, the manufacturer.

How many transformers do you have in your house, Doug?
How many of those contain PCBs?
What types of transformers used PCBs, and what was the purpose for the
PCBs?

Jon


Question 1: Doesn't matter. I have no intention of disassembling them.

Question 2: Probably none, but none of the transformers in my home are
older
than 3-4 years, except the tiny one that handles the doorbell. I doubt
PCB's
are permitted in small household transformers at this stage, considering
what we know about them.

Question 3: The oil in older, larger transformers was there for either
cooling or insulation - I don't recall, and it doesn't matter, since
it's
just a point of interest. But, the PCBs were there as a byproduct, not
because they had a purpose.

What's YOUR point? That, knowing what we do about these chemicals, we
should
be stupid, pretend the knowledge doesn't exist, and be careless?

My point is that I suspected you of being a reactionary man who is unable
to
consider a topic rationally, based upon the facts in evidence, without
launching into a pre-programmed tirade based upon emotional supposition
and
lack of knowledge.

That you are unwilling to answer the very basic questions that I asked
you
WRT transformers further demonstrates this, and I thank you for further
revealing yourself with your response.

I can't "fix" the problems that you seem determined to expose to the
world,
Doug,, but perhaps you would be a bit better off it you would at least
educate yourself a bit before exposing your ignorance in any particular
area
of knowledge.

Of course, you might very well enjoy espousing your ignorance to the
world;
it seems to be a popular pastime with your type.

Jon


Reactionary? Nonsense. The OP stated that he has a transformer weighing
around 200 lbs. While this does not necessarily mean it's different from
the one in my furnace, dishwasher or doorbell, it also does not mean it's
the same. Neither you nor I know exactly what he has. You know that.

As far as "rational", I'm sure you're aware that there's an entire
generation that has no idea what sort of chemistry experiments went on in
this country before people finally woke up. Perhaps the Love Canal
situation was the wakeup call. It's entirely possible that the OP had NO
idea about what he might have in his possession.

Why do you have a problem with suggesting that he proceed with caution? Do
you believe that all the research into the dangers of PCBs are junk
science?

For those who are interested in a little of the history of PCBs I work for a
utility that has some experience with it.

Firstly, size doesn't matter, it was everywhere at one time, and ignoramus's
original post did not mention if the transformer was dry or not. So I think
Doug's response to be wary of PCBs was the right thing to suggest, given the
possible dangers involved.

PCBs were the answer to a maidens prayer for transformer and capacitor
manufacturers, since it had much better heat transfer characteristics
combined with excellent dielectric strength. Plus it allowed more compact
designs, and a cheaper overall product cost. All was well in transformer and
capacitor land until a couple of incidents that drew attention to some of
PCB environmental effects.

One incident, came about because PCBs look and smell remarkably like cooking
oil, somewhere ( Japan I think ) a barrel of it found its way into a
restaurant and it was used to cook food. A number people were hospitalised
from its effects, burning of the mouth, throat etc.

Another incident involved a fire in a basement substation in a high rise
building in the US. Although it is hard to burn, a fault in the transformer
set it alight, and the buildings airconditioning system pumped the smoke
from the fire through the building. PCB's produce dioxin when they burn, and
the building was contaminated with dioxin. I'm not sure the mess has ever
been cleaned up.

Once they started looking at the chemical, they found that it had the
property of being very stable, and of accumulating in the food chain. If
someone did dump it in a lake, it would still be in the lake 500 years
later, most likely in the fish at the top of the food chain.

Experience in our own area was with a customer who bought us a sample
capacitor to have tested. They had been asleep in bed, hot night with the
fan on, when a capacitor in their ceiling fan leaked PCB's on to them. They
had fairly serious skin reactions on their faces, necks, and legs, like a
reaction to strong bleach, although the reaction was not immediate. The
fellow who bought us the capacitor had the burns, so I've actually seen the
effects of pure PCB.

We removed all our PCB capacitors from our network, and replaced them with
non PCB types. We stockpiled these for disposal on an incinerator ship which
cruised the world destroying the PCBs by burning them at exteremly high
temperatures, to destroy the dioxin, out at sea, since it was too dangerous
to attempt it on land. Funny thing was the ships kept sinking, the cynic in
me thinks it must have been cheaper to load up an old ship to the gunnels
with the suff, and sink it rather than actually burn it.

While we had no PCB transformers on our network, we acquired a network which
did have some. The problem was that maintenance processes had cross
contaminated a lot of other transformers with the stuff, and at one stage
the EPA here had set a limit of 5 parts per million contamination of PCB
before the oil was clasified as hazardous. I believe it is now at 20 ppm. I
believe this to be a major over reaction to risks involved, it's the pure
stuff that needs to be treated with respect.

While there is a fair bit of hysteria surrounding PCBs, there are some real
risks with the pure stuff that people playing with old transformers and
capacitors need to be wary of.

regards,

John

Ignoramus22732 wrote:

So... How do I take it apart?

It is a labor intensive operation. I take a knife, and using a light
hammer, tap the blade between the laminations peeling them off one by
one. The transformer might be worth more to someone as a transformer.

Kevin Gallimore

"john johnson" wrote in message
u...

snip snap snude

While there is a fair bit of hysteria surrounding PCBs, there are some
real
risks with the pure stuff that people playing with old transformers and
capacitors need to be wary of.

Thanx for the warning, I was not aware that there still might som PCBs
arround in old oil filled transformers and old capacitors so I'll keep that
in mind next time I go shopping at the local scrapheap :-)


/Morten


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.825 / Virus Database: 563 - Release Date: 31/12/2004

If you mean bury it? NO! It is insulated copper probably!

Polysol insulation will burn off, Polythermaleze will burn off with a lot of
heat, Formel insulation will probably not come off with any fire. These
coatings are usually made to withstand severe heat in use.

You could use it for a long wave antenae or how about a lightning collector
to power that 25W bulb for a few seconds with the $100K in equipment to
catch that once in a lifetime strike?...LOL

Wind a huge Tesla coil on your roof and show the neighbours your nuts! (or
drop your pants when they are looking)

Can't this tranformer be used by somebody to generate a second 120V from a
single phase 120V inverter? It sounds pretty beefy.

BTW: once you knock the wedge out of the coil form the laminations will be
easier to get out. This keeps them from buzzing until the varnish and other
impregnations go into it.


"Ignoramus22732" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 17:39:05 -0500, Gymy Bob wrote:
Hey moron! The copper is considered "mixed" copper and is worth about
$0.02
per pound, if he seperates it all.

Can I use this copper as a grounding wire?

i

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 17:34:29 -0500, "Gymy Bob"
wrote:

All minor ailments and no deaths have ever been attributed to it.
snip

You may consider it a "minor ailment", but have you seen the photos of
that Ruskie politician who was purportedly poisoned with dioxin? A
year ago he looked about like baby faced John Edwards, now he looks
more like a puffy faced, acne ridden Andy Rooney...

DJ

Ignoramus22732 wrote:
I am demolishing a huge 8 kVa UPS. Lots of nice wires, screws etc.

It has a large transformer, it weighs around 200 lbs. It comes from a
that 8 KVA Ferrups UPS. There is a super heavy square shaped copper
wire on it, which, I fancy, could sell for some money. This wire is
something like 3x8 mm in cross section. Very heavy stuff. So, if I
somehow manage to pull the transformer apart, I would, first, able to
throw the steel part to garbage, and second, to get and sell copper
wire. i would also keep some of this copper wire for home uses such as
grounding wire for my generator.

Without taking it apart I will not be able to do anything with this
monstrosity, not even throw it away.

This is a specialty transformer with lots of contacts, so I do not
think that I could sell it. (another, smaller like 50 lbs transformer
is an isolation transformer which I hope to sell for at least
something. Also, there are 8 1.2 farad capacitors)

So... How do I take it apart? It was assembled from steel plates, can
it be therefore disassembled?

i
What are the voltages (and type) on the capacitors? I may be interested.


--
Steve Walker
(remove wallet to reply)

I thought we were talking PCBs?

"DJ" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 17:34:29 -0500, "Gymy Bob"
wrote:

All minor ailments and no deaths have ever been attributed to it.
snip

You may consider it a "minor ailment", but have you seen the photos of
that Ruskie politician who was purportedly poisoned with dioxin? A
year ago he looked about like baby faced John Edwards, now he looks
more like a puffy faced, acne ridden Andy Rooney...

DJ

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 19:45:30 -0500, "Gymy Bob"
wrote:

I thought we were talking PCBs?

I was referring to what another poster wrote:

On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 10:13:33 +1100, "john johnson"
wrote:
snip

Another incident involved a fire in a basement substation in a high rise
building in the US. Although it is hard to burn, a fault in the transformer
set it alight, and the buildings airconditioning system pumped the smoke
from the fire through the building. PCB's produce dioxin when they burn, and
the building was contaminated with dioxin. I'm not sure the mess has ever
been cleaned up.
snip

"DJ" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 17:34:29 -0500, "Gymy Bob"
wrote:

All minor ailments and no deaths have ever been attributed to it.
snip

You may consider it a "minor ailment", but have you seen the photos of
that Ruskie politician who was purportedly poisoned with dioxin? A
year ago he looked about like baby faced John Edwards, now he looks
more like a puffy faced, acne ridden Andy Rooney...

DJ

Mr Clarke wrote:

I am mystified as to how they manage to put the windings on Toroids.

Interestingly enough, they use a toroid winding machine. A hoop is split
to fit through the core. The hoop is then used as a carrier to wrap the
wire around the core.

http://www.ruff-inc.com/toroid_machi...od=MINI-SIMPLE

Kevin Gallimore

You quoted me and answered my post in the thread.

"DJ" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 19:45:30 -0500, "Gymy Bob"
wrote:

I thought we were talking PCBs?

I was referring to what another poster wrote:

On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 10:13:33 +1100, "john johnson"
wrote:
snip

Another incident involved a fire in a basement substation in a high rise
building in the US. Although it is hard to burn, a fault in the
transformer
set it alight, and the buildings airconditioning system pumped the smoke
from the fire through the building. PCB's produce dioxin when they burn,
and
the building was contaminated with dioxin. I'm not sure the mess has ever
been cleaned up.
snip

"DJ" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 17:34:29 -0500, "Gymy Bob"
wrote:

All minor ailments and no deaths have ever been attributed to it.
snip

You may consider it a "minor ailment", but have you seen the photos of
that Ruskie politician who was purportedly poisoned with dioxin? A
year ago he looked about like baby faced John Edwards, now he looks
more like a puffy faced, acne ridden Andy Rooney...

DJ

No deaths? OK. But, why is it considered dangerous?

"Gymy Bob" wrote in message
...
There is no liquid in a "dry-type" transforemt and therefore no PCBs

PCB were only used in large transformers full of cooling oil for usage
indoors because of the flammablity rating of the PCB oils.

Did you know, **NO***, I repeat ***NO*** death has ever been related to
PCBs?


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Jon Danniken" wrote in message
...
"Doug Kanter" wrote:
"Jon Danniken" wrote:
"Doug Kanter" wrote:

Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by
some
guy
"salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no longer
safe
to
eat. You may want to investigate further what may be inside that
transformer
of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps your state's
environmental
conservation department, or local department of solid waste could
assist
in
finding out more. Or, the manufacturer.

How many transformers do you have in your house, Doug?
How many of those contain PCBs?
What types of transformers used PCBs, and what was the purpose for
the
PCBs?

Jon


Question 1: Doesn't matter. I have no intention of disassembling them.

Question 2: Probably none, but none of the transformers in my home are
older
than 3-4 years, except the tiny one that handles the doorbell. I doubt
PCB's
are permitted in small household transformers at this stage,
considering
what we know about them.

Question 3: The oil in older, larger transformers was there for either
cooling or insulation - I don't recall, and it doesn't matter, since
it's
just a point of interest. But, the PCBs were there as a byproduct, not
because they had a purpose.

What's YOUR point? That, knowing what we do about these chemicals, we
should
be stupid, pretend the knowledge doesn't exist, and be careless?

My point is that I suspected you of being a reactionary man who is
unable
to
consider a topic rationally, based upon the facts in evidence, without
launching into a pre-programmed tirade based upon emotional supposition
and
lack of knowledge.

That you are unwilling to answer the very basic questions that I asked
you
WRT transformers further demonstrates this, and I thank you for further
revealing yourself with your response.

I can't "fix" the problems that you seem determined to expose to the
world,
Doug,, but perhaps you would be a bit better off it you would at least
educate yourself a bit before exposing your ignorance in any particular
area
of knowledge.

Of course, you might very well enjoy espousing your ignorance to the
world;
it seems to be a popular pastime with your type.

Jon


Reactionary? Nonsense. The OP stated that he has a transformer weighing
around 200 lbs. While this does not necessarily mean it's different from
the
one in my furnace, dishwasher or doorbell, it also does not mean it's the
same. Neither you nor I know exactly what he has. You know that.

As far as "rational", I'm sure you're aware that there's an entire
generation that has no idea what sort of chemistry experiments went on in
this country before people finally woke up. Perhaps the Love Canal
situation
was the wakeup call. It's entirely possible that the OP had NO idea about
what he might have in his possession.

Why do you have a problem with suggesting that he proceed with caution?
Do
you believe that all the research into the dangers of PCBs are junk
science?

Doug Kanter wrote:

Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by some
guy "salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no longer
safe to eat. You may want to investigate further what may be inside
that transformer of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps your
state's environmental conservation department, or local department of
solid waste could assist in finding out more. Or, the manufacturer.

But the GUY who disassembled the transformers is okay, right?

Maybe there's PCBs. Maybe not. If there are PCBs, there might be enough to
be detectable. If so, diluted 1-trillion-to-one in a nearby pond might be
sufficient to give one fish a headache.

Bah! Who cares?

"Ignoramus22732" wrote in message
...
I am demolishing a huge 8 kVa UPS. Lots of nice wires, screws etc.

It has a large transformer, it weighs around 200 lbs. It comes from a
that 8 KVA Ferrups UPS. There is a super heavy square shaped copper
wire on it, which, I fancy, could sell for some money. This wire is
something like 3x8 mm in cross section. Very heavy stuff. So, if I
somehow manage to pull the transformer apart, I would, first, able to
throw the steel part to garbage, and second, to get and sell copper
wire. i would also keep some of this copper wire for home uses such as
grounding wire for my generator.

Without taking it apart I will not be able to do anything with this
monstrosity, not even throw it away.

This is a specialty transformer with lots of contacts, so I do not
think that I could sell it. (another, smaller like 50 lbs transformer
is an isolation transformer which I hope to sell for at least
something. Also, there are 8 1.2 farad capacitors)

So... How do I take it apart? It was assembled from steel plates, can
it be therefore disassembled?

i

This is Turtle.

i , first before starting to take apart this transformer contact your Medical
insurance company and add on a Cancer Policy for you and the family members for
your may need it if you spill any of this liquid at your house or on you. The
transformer oil in not cancer causing stuff till it is used over a year or so
and then it become PCB . the stuff is activated by the electricity going through
it and become a Cancer causing stuff after they have been used. Now here is a
chance to get rid of a unwanted Brother in law or kind folks by just getting
them to take it apart and get the oil on them. In Short order your in the class
of getting cancer soon.

So if you interested in keeping your family safe and not have cancer. You need
to have it hauled off to the Power company work station and dump it out when
they are not looking and they have the means to dispose of it properly. There
maybe $30 or $40 of copper in it but having Cancer will wipe out that profit
real fast.

i , DON"T TOUCH THAT STUFF AND GET RID OF IT.

TURTLE