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| Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 15:21:50 -0500, Ned Simmons
wrote: The Royal Microscopical Society. How's that for an obscure and useless bit of information crowding out more useful stuff from memory? Wish I could remember my wedding anniversary. Hmmm. Figures. MIght have to google that one and see if they're still around, but knowing the Brits, once it's established, it'll be forever before they let it go. (Wish I could remember what day it is.) |
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I'm trying to follow up on Nobody's suggestion that I use RT-44 as a lubricant for the rack and pinion on the telescope. Searching for RT-44 with Google turns up endless hits for places on Route 44. At Ace Hardware's website, searching for lubricant turns up what looks like mostly motor oil but no RT-44 and searching for RT-44 turns up nothing. I also searched rec.crafts.metalworking for messages mentioning rt-44 and found two, one of which was Nobody's posting I'm following up on and the other was from someone who said he had gotten a tube from American Science and Surplus. Searching http://www.sciplus.com for rt-44 no longer turns up anything, nor does searching for lubricant. So, where does one get rt-44? -- Ignorantly, Allan Adler * Disclaimer: I am a guest and *not* a member of the MIT CSAIL. My actions and * comments do not reflect in any way on MIT. Also, I am nowhere near Boston. |
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On 07 Dec 2004 01:07:45 -0500, Allan Adler
wrote: So, where does one get rt-44? Probably not much help, but I got mine from American Science and Surplus, but their supplies of it are sporadic at best. They don't list it as RT-44, don't think they have any idea of what they're selling there. I'll take a look and see if they have anything listed, the last time, all they said, "It's slippery". The tube I got from them appears to be about a 50 year supply, and cost a whole buck. I think that when it's sold under the trade name, they're not so generous, but only tiny amounts are needed. IF all else fails, try J&H Microscope Repair Service in Madison, Wisconsin. I know Jerry keeps a pretty good supply. Just tell him Richard from Burlington steered you there. Don't have his phone handy, every time I call him I end up with some damn work I don't really want anymore. |
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I've been trying to follow up on details of some suggestions.
Regarding the threads in lens holders in eyepieces, the use of collapsing taps seems to be prohibitively expensive, although in searching for them the collapsing taps I've found don't seem to be for that range of sizes. On the other hand, one doesn't have to make them exactly the way they are made in commercial products. One reason given for the odd sizes was so that other things don't get screwed in by mistake. For making my own, I probably don't need to worry about that. There might still be a reason one wants very fine threads. One thing that occurred to me was that maybe by making multiple threads, one could achieve the same fineness. Alternatively, by using CNC one might just be able to tell the lathe exactly how to cut the threads. Hence, regarding CNC: it was mentioned that Nick Carter has some device called a Frog for upgrading a Taig lathe to CNC for about $200. I'm not sure what assumptions are made regarding the configuration about the Taig nor what assumptions are made regarding the computer to which the Frog is supposed to be able to be connected, if one wants to connect the Frog to a computer. To take an extreme example, suppose I find a vacuum cleaner discarded on the street and perform a motorectomy on it and order the K1019 deal at http://www.taigtools.com for $144.50 and one Taig Frog for $199 from Nick Carter. Then for a total of $344, more or less, I have a lathe and a Frog, but it's not clear to me whether there is enough Taig there to use the Frog with it. Obviously, one can't have the Frog tell the Taig to do stuff that requires a tailstock, but there are things one can do without a tailstock. (More on this below.) As regards the computer, will the Frog work with the computer if it is a PC running some version of RedHat Linux (as mine is)? I haven't taken any courses on lathes. I happened to read Joe Martin's book, Tabletop Machining, and I read Gingery's book, The Metal Lathe, and I have version 55 of the South Bend Lathe Book, from around 1958. In particular, Gingery shows you the lathe in various stages of completion and how to use it to bootstrap the rest of the lathe. So, I compared the parts list at http://www.taigtools.com/mlathe.html with what I found in Gingery's book, not too meticulously, but enough to give me some idea. The part list of the Taig Micro Lathe II kit mentions a bed but doesn't mention anything about ways. I think I'm supposed to realize that the bed includes the ways. In the Gingery lathe, there is a lead screw. I'm not sure but I think the analogous part for the Taig is 100-09, which is the carriage rack (there is also a pinion gear, so I think I am still within bounds of the subject "rack and pinion"). On p.100, Gingery writes: "At this point, you have built a lathe that is as complete as some that are sold commercially. If you have been in the market for a lathe very long, you are not surprised to learn that some lathes are sold without a tail stock. I could hardly call a tail stock an accessory, as some do, but the partially finished lathe can do many jobs now." Gingery declines to say what the jobs are that the partially finished lathe can do, but How to Run a Lathe says: "Work that cannot readily be mounted between the lathe centers is usually held in a chuck, as shown above, for machining." I assume that is meant to include the case where there is no tailstock. It goes on to mention, specifically: (1) taper turning with a chuck and compound rest and (2) cutting screw threads with a chuck and compopund rest, using gears that connect the headstock spindle to the lead screw." Maybe there are other things and maybe more can be done using the Frog with it, but I don't see it clearly. For example, I'm not sure what, in the case of the Taig, would take the place of the gears that engage the screw thread to achieve (2). Regarding the motorectomy, I'm reading the book, "Fractional horsepower motors: use, selection, operation, repair and maintenance", by Rex Miller and Mark Richard Miller. I'm about 100 pages into the book and a lot of just goes past me, but it has already discussed removing and repairing a vacuum cleaner motor. The book lists a lot of tools and parts one needs to get involved with motors, probably adding up to a significant investment, but I think the authors are assuming that anyone who reads the book is probably giving at least some thought to opening up a repair shop. What one actually needs just to scavenge one motor from a discarded vacuum cleaner for use with a lathe is probably not much. Incidentally, the micro lathe parts diagram and parts list at the Taig site seems to have a small typographical error: there is a part in the parts diagram labeled 100-28 but there is no such part in the parts list. -- Ignorantly, Allan Adler * Disclaimer: I am a guest and *not* a member of the MIT CSAIL. My actions and * comments do not reflect in any way on MIT. Also, I am nowhere near Boston. |
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In article ,
Allan Adler wrote: I've been trying to follow up on details of some suggestions. [ ... ] Hence, regarding CNC: it was mentioned that Nick Carter has some device called a Frog for upgrading a Taig lathe to CNC for about $200. I'm not sure what assumptions are made regarding the configuration about the Taig nor what assumptions are made regarding the computer to which the Frog is supposed to be able to be connected, if one wants to connect the Frog to a computer. To take an extreme example, suppose I find a vacuum cleaner discarded on the street and perform a motorectomy on it and order the K1019 deal at http://www.taigtools.com for $144.50 and one Taig Frog for $199 from Nick Carter. Then for a total of $344, more or less, I have a lathe and a Frog, but it's not clear to me whether there is enough Taig there to use the Frog with it. Obviously, one can't have the Frog tell the Taig to do stuff that requires a tailstock, but there are things one can do without a tailstock. (More on this below.) As regards the computer, will the Frog work with the computer if it is a PC running some version of RedHat Linux (as mine is)? O.K. The "frog" is not a part of Taig, or of Nick Carter. It was started by another person, who during the last year dropped the line and it was picked up by yet another. (I should remember the name of the latter -- from a mailing list in which I participate -- but I don't.) Have a look at this URL (which mentions Nick Carter, as he is the premier worker with the Taig. http://www.avatartools.com/ and this subpage shows one fitted to a Taig: http://www.avatartools.com/Merchant2...gory_Code=Taig Note that you do not *need* a computer at all. The frog contains a keypad to allow you to enter commands to it. (A computer is probably easier to save programs and re-load them -- especially if it takes a lot of keystrokes to enter the program. I don't know whether there is anything locking it into Windows, and I somehow doubt it. Just a simple text transfer should be sufficient. [ ... ] The part list of the Taig Micro Lathe II kit mentions a bed but doesn't mention anything about ways. I think I'm supposed to realize that the bed includes the ways. Yes. The ways are a steel dovetail, which is mounted onto a aluminum bed filled with concrete to minimize vibration and chatter. In the Gingery lathe, there is a lead screw. I'm not sure but I think the analogous part for the Taig is 100-09, which is the carriage rack (there is also a pinion gear, so I think I am still within bounds of the subject "rack and pinion"). Larger lathes have a rack-and-pinion to move the carriage under control of the handwheel, and the leadscrew is only used with the gearbox for threading and power feed (and on the better ones, power feed picks up rotation of the leadscrew through a keyway milled along its length, to drive a gear train connected either to the handwheel (for slow longitudinal feed), or the cross-feed crank (for facing). This reduces wear on the threads and half-nuts over the life of the lathe. Smaller machines may have a leadscrew which is only operated by a handwheel at the end of the bed, so it is very slow to go from one end to the other. The Unimat SL-1000 (and DB-200) were of this type. The Taig has only the rack and pinion, and the frog kit for the Taig is designed to work with this. According to the web page, if you want to use it with a Taig which has been retrofitted with a leadscrew, you want to order the Sherline kit, which suggests that the Sherline is similar to the earlier Unimat machines. On p.100, Gingery writes: "At this point, you have built a lathe that is as complete as some that are sold commercially. If you have been in the market for a lathe very long, you are not surprised to learn that some lathes are sold without a tail stock. I could hardly call a tail stock an accessory, as some do, but the partially finished lathe can do many jobs now." Gingery declines to say what the jobs are that the partially finished lathe can do, but How to Run a Lathe says: "Work that cannot readily be mounted between the lathe centers is usually held in a chuck, as shown above, for machining." I assume that is meant to include the case where there is no tailstock. It goes on to mention, specifically: (1) taper turning with a chuck and compound rest Limited to the length of travel of the compound. and (2) cutting screw threads with a chuck and compopund rest, using gears that connect the headstock spindle to the lead screw." Except that there is no leadscrew on the standard Taig. But, there are other ways to cut threads -- with the Frog driving the carriage. Maybe there are other things and maybe more can be done using the Frog with it, but I don't see it clearly. For example, I'm not sure what, in the case of the Taig, would take the place of the gears that engage the screw thread to achieve (2). The Frog monitors a sensor on the headstock of the lathe, which produces a pulse once per revolution. It times the delay between pulses to calculate the RPM, and then drives the carriage at an appropriate speed to cut the thread, It always starts just after one of the pulses, so the successive (deeper) cuts are made along the same track. It is possible to fit a lathe with two Frogs, interconnected, so you can turn tapers using that. Note that when turning with a chuck, and no tailstock, you are limited in the length of the workpiece extending beyond the jaws of the chuck. This must be limited to something like no more than perhaps three times the diameter, or the flex of the workpiece material will introduce errors. A tailstock, with a live (or dead) center can allow much longer cuts, as the workpiece is supported at both ends, and the bending moment of the middle makes it able to work beyond twice the maximum length when using just the chuck. There is also available a stead rest, which can support a workpiece some distance beyond the chuck, without needing a tailstock. Regarding the motorectomy, I'm reading the book, "Fractional horsepower motors: use, selection, operation, repair and maintenance", by Rex Miller and Mark Richard Miller. I'm about 100 pages into the book and a lot of just goes past me, but it has already discussed removing and repairing a vacuum cleaner motor. The book lists a lot of tools and parts one needs to get involved with motors, probably adding up to a significant investment, but I think the authors are assuming that anyone who reads the book is probably giving at least some thought to opening up a repair shop. What one actually needs just to scavenge one motor from a discarded vacuum cleaner for use with a lathe is probably not much. A Vacuum cleaner motor may not be a satisfactory one -- in part because it tends to be more of an open frame format than most others, and thus allows chips from the lathe to get into the motor, and possibly damage it. In the vacuum cleaner, it is protected by the bag or filter in the cleaner. Incidentally, the micro lathe parts diagram and parts list at the Taig site seems to have a small typographical error: there is a part in the parts diagram labeled 100-28 but there is no such part in the parts list. I have not looked at that, so I don't know. I seem to remember you mentioning the lack of a dog and a faceplate (somewhere in the trimmed text, I suspect). Note that as long as you can mount a center in the spindle and access it through the chuck, you can use a jaw of the chuck to drive a lathe dog. (And, you can *make* a lathe dog, if you can't find one of the needed size -- especially in these smaller sizes.) But -- there is a faceplate available for the Taig. One with T-slots, so you can bolt a workpiece to it which can't be held in the chuck, among other things. And a (small) faceplate is not that difficult to make, if you also have milling capability. Enjoy, DoN. P.S. I suspect that you would get more immediate positive feedback if you bought the Taig with as many accessories as you can. Making your own is best done for a later machine, if needed, when you have the skills needed. -- Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
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Thanks very much for answering my questions about Frogs and Taigs and other
details. I think I understand a lot better now. (DoN. Nichols) writes: Note that you do not *need* a computer at all. The frog contains a keypad to allow you to enter commands to it. (A computer is probably easier to save programs and re-load them -- especially if it takes a lot of keystrokes to enter the program. I don't know whether there is anything locking it into Windows, and I somehow doubt it. Just a simple text transfer should be sufficient. I just took a look at http://www.sourceforge.net and did a search for cnc and found a number of projects in progress aimed at using Linux for CNC. Apparently most of them haven't released any free software yet, but it is only a matter of time. One that has released some stuff is at http://sourceforge.net/projects/cnccodegen and is described as follows: "CNC code generator is a software to generate CNC codes (G & M codes) for maching operations like milling, drilling. At present CNC code generator is limited for end milling. we working on other machining operations like turning, drilling etc." Two items that look especially interesting are the OpenCNC, which simulates what happens when you run a program on a lathe and does some error checking, and the Linux Multiple-Axis Control Project. Unfortunately, neither has released any files yet, according to sourceforge. Meanwhile, maybe it's time I learned to read and write G code. I vaguely recall that there is something on this in Machinery's Handbook and it doesn't cost me anything to look at it in the bookstore. I seem to remember you mentioning the lack of a dog and a faceplate (somewhere in the trimmed text, I suspect). I searched for "dog" and "faceplate" separately in this thread at http://www.dejanews.com and only found your article mentioning them. But the information about them is still welcome. P.S. I suspect that you would get more immediate positive feedback if you bought the Taig with as many accessories as you can. Making your own is best done for a later machine, if needed, when you have the skills needed. I agree. I'm not in any way in a position to make my own. For one thing, I can't cast molten aluminum in a crowded apartment. I should be able to find enough space to do some work on a lathe when I get one, though. I was only mentioning Gingery's book because it enabled me to do a comparative anatomy of lathes in various stages of completion. -- Ignorantly, Allan Adler * Disclaimer: I am a guest and *not* a member of the MIT CSAIL. My actions and * comments do not reflect in any way on MIT. Also, I am nowhere near Boston. |
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In article ,
Allan Adler wrote: Thanks very much for answering my questions about Frogs and Taigs and other details. I think I understand a lot better now. (DoN. Nichols) writes: Note that you do not *need* a computer at all. The frog contains a keypad to allow you to enter commands to it. (A computer is [ ... ] I just took a look at http://www.sourceforge.net and did a search for cnc and found a number of projects in progress aimed at using Linux for CNC. Apparently most of them haven't released any free software yet, but it is only a matter of time. One that has released some stuff is at http://sourceforge.net/projects/cnccodegen and is described as follows: "CNC code generator is a software to generate CNC codes (G & M codes) for maching operations like milling, drilling. At present CNC code generator is limited for end milling. we working on other machining operations like turning, drilling etc." That is good news. I look forward to it. But the G and M codes are probably meaningless to the Frog -- it is its own world. :-) Two items that look especially interesting are the OpenCNC, which simulates what happens when you run a program on a lathe and does some error checking, and the Linux Multiple-Axis Control Project. Unfortunately, neither has released any files yet, according to sourceforge. Hmm ... there is a simulator built into the EMC project -- built around a modified linux kernel to add real-time capabilities. Meanwhile, maybe it's time I learned to read and write G code. I vaguely recall that there is something on this in Machinery's Handbook and it doesn't cost me anything to look at it in the bookstore. O.K. Though I suspect that without a context (a machine to try things on, or at least a description of a machine) you may find the _MH_ description not too clear. Hmm ... one posibility would be for you to download the programming manual for the Compact-5/CNC, which would give you an example of a real machine -- I know this, as I own and use one. Go to: http://www2.d-and-d.com/EMCO/index.html One of the sub pages has the programming manual, broken up into a separate PDF file for each chapter. Most of the others show various features about my Compact-5/CNC which I have seen fit to document from time to time for discussions here and elsewhere. I seem to remember you mentioning the lack of a dog and a faceplate (somewhere in the trimmed text, I suspect). I searched for "dog" and "faceplate" separately in this thread at http://www.dejanews.com and only found your article mentioning them. But the information about them is still welcome. O.K. It must have been another thread -- and perhaps even in another forum. P.S. I suspect that you would get more immediate positive feedback if you bought the Taig with as many accessories as you can. Making your own is best done for a later machine, if needed, when you have the skills needed. I agree. I'm not in any way in a position to make my own. For one thing, I can't cast molten aluminum in a crowded apartment. You've been paying too much attention to the Gingery books. You can simply start with a piece of aluminum, or cast iron, large enough, and remove everything which does not look like a faceplate. :-) For a dog -- start with a thick enough piece of metal, drill a hole, file one side of it to a V, and thread a hole for a setscrew opposite the V. Then, drill a hole parallel to the other, but out beyond the end of the V, tap it, and screw in a pin to engage the chuck jaw or the slots in the faceplate. One benefit to an aluminum one is that you are less likely to mar the finish on the workpiece when turning a workpiece between centers end for end. Just be sure to put another scrap of aluminum or copper between the setscrew and the workpiece. Where the casting helps is that it produces less waste material, and less required machining. This is more important as the size of the project scales up. I should be able to find enough space to do some work on a lathe when I get one, though. I was only mentioning Gingery's book because it enabled me to do a comparative anatomy of lathes in various stages of completion. O.K. A Taig is a nice sized desktop machine. The old Atlas or Atlas/Craftsman 6x18 probably should be bolted to a workbench in a more permanent setup. The Taig can be lifted clear and put away in a cabinet when the job is finished. And at least the one which I have has a couple of dummy spindle nose threads on the plate to which it is mounted -- useful for storing the faceplate and chuck not currently on the spindle. Enjoy, DoN. -- Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
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In article ,
Allan Adler wrote: (DoN. Nichols) writes: But the G and M codes are probably meaningless to the Frog -- it is its own world. :-) When a computer sends something to the Frog, what format is the information in? Presumably, plain ASCII. But I don't have a Frog, so I can't do more than guess. If it depends on software provided by the vendor of the Frog, that again raises the question of Linux compatibility. Hmm ... there is a simulator built into the EMC project -- built around a modified linux kernel to add real-time capabilities. I forgot about the EMC. I remember being led to it by looking at the Sherline web pages on the Sherline CNC capabilities. Apparently, the real time modifications to the linux kernel are not something the likes of me can add to the kernel, Why not? I've done it, and I found the instructions pretty clear. (But you have to apply the patches to the right version of the linux kernel, so there is a better way for you. so one has to install an actual real-time Linux kernel such as RT-linux which, as I recall, is not free software. What? Of course it is free. (Or a minor fee for the CD-ROM copying.) Check out http://www.linuxcnc.org/ In particular, look for references to BDI (Brain Dead Install), a CD-ROM which can be booted and used to install the patched linux in a raw machine. You can download it -- but on a dialup, this would be a killer, as it is a CD-ROM image file which you would use to burn your own CD-ROM. Or -- there is a list of e-mail addresses (under "Where to get it") for those who will burn CD-ROMs for those whose download time is excessive. I don't know what they charge, but it should be something reasonable, for burning, time, blanks, and postage. Sherline solves all these problems by selling you the computer with the right version of Linux and the necessary software installed on it as a necessary part of the deal. Probably one of the BDI versions -- perhaps with standard drivers tuned for the Sherline hardware. Another problem with the EMC was that some of the files one would need to download just to look at the software are about 75 MB, which is way to much for my system to download (I use a modem over a phone line and my ISP clocks me out after a certain number of hours). Hence the contact addresses for the BDI CD-ROM. At least one of those is something like 500 MB, and at least one distribution is two full CD-ROMs. I don't know whether it is possible to just use the EMC simulator on an ordinary non-real-time Linux distribution. It should be, as there is no real-time interface involved. But why, when you would have to download the source and compile it anyway, and the BDI package makes it so much easier. O.K. Though I suspect that without a context (a machine to try things on, or at least a description of a machine) you may find the _MH_ description not too clear. I agree with you. I'm also trying to get some books on it. Hmm ... one possibility would be for you to download the programming manual for the Compact-5/CNC, which would give you an example of a real machine -- I know this, as I own and use one. Go to: http://www2.d-and-d.com/EMCO/index.html Thanks, I'm getting it now. Good. Enjoy. O.K. A Taig is a nice sized desktop machine. The old Atlas or Atlas/Craftsman 6x18 probably should be bolted to a workbench in a more permanent setup. The Taig can be lifted clear and put away in a cabinet when the job is finished. I'm probably going to get a Unimat 1 for starters, since it gives me several capabilities, not just a lathe, even if it is basically just an overpriced toy (especially after one adds in the shipping and handling and manual and taxes). But since I know it is a very limited tool, I'm already trying to decide what my second lathe will be and that is why I've been looking so closely at the Taig. I'm not sure which recent Unimat is which -- but at least one of them is good for nothing more durable than plastics, from what I have read. Enjoy, DoN. -- Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
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Allan Adler writes:
(DoN. Nichols) writes: I'm not sure which recent Unimat is which -- but at least one of them is good for nothing more durable than plastics, from what I have read. I was thinking of getting it from Edmund Scientific. I have been operating on the assumption that it is ok for wood, plastics and at least some non-ferrous metals. I was so taken aback by the suggestion that all my plans were based on a false assumption that I took another look at the Edmund Scientific catalogue. Here is what it says about the lathe module of the Unimat 1: "Module #3 Metals and Plastics Lathe: Works with soft metal, non-ferrous metal, precious metal and plastics." Regarding wood, Module #1 is a small woodturning attachment. I wonder whether there is any chance that the Frog could be made to work with the Unimat 1. -- Ignorantly, Allan Adler * Disclaimer: I am a guest and *not* a member of the MIT CSAIL. My actions and * comments do not reflect in any way on MIT. Also, I am nowhere near Boston. |
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In article ,
Allan Adler wrote: Allan Adler writes: (DoN. Nichols) writes: I'm not sure which recent Unimat is which -- but at least one of them is good for nothing more durable than plastics, from what I have read. I was thinking of getting it from Edmund Scientific. I have been operating on the assumption that it is ok for wood, plastics and at least some non-ferrous metals. I was so taken aback by the suggestion that all my plans were based on a false assumption that I took another look at the Edmund Scientific catalogue. Here is what it says about the lathe module of the Unimat 1: "Module #3 Metals and Plastics Lathe: Works with soft metal, non-ferrous metal, precious metal and plastics." Of course they would make the maximum claims that they could get away with. They are trying to *sell* the things. :-) Note that I expressed a doubt as to which recent Unimat was which. The Unimat which I have used was the SL-1000 -- back from the days when the bed was a pair of steel rods supported only at the ends. That could turn steel, but not very robustly. At least one of the recent Unimats is almost all plastic, and cannot be practically used for steel. This mention of "soft metal" suggests that this is what they are describing. The page for the Frog mentions that the Sherline version of the Frog should work with the Unimat-3 -- and says nothing about the Unimat-1. O.K. I'm looking at it now, on their web page. It is the modular plastic-bodied one which I feared. Note that the power supply is a wall-wart, good for all of 24 Watts. That means something like 1/30 of a horsepower. Quite anemic. Also -- the focus of the description for the jigsaw attachment suggests to me that this *is* a toy, not a serious tool. "Module #2 Jig Saw: Completely safe (short stroke only vibrates the skin); max thickness: 7mm." That short stroke means that it cannot practically be used with thicker materials, as there is insufficient stroke to allow the chips to clear the workpiece. I truly consider this to be a toy, intended to teach the *principles* of a lathe, without giving you enough power to hurt yourself. Doing a web search on "Unimat 3", I am led to the Blue Ridge web page, which says (when I click on "Unimat-3": "The Unimat Lathes are no longer being manufactured. However, some parts and accessories are still available." Also, I see that the spindle nose for the Unimat-3 is a M14x1 thread, while that for the Unimat-1 is M12x1. The Unimat-3 I believe had the same bed as the Compact-5 -- one flat way and one inverted-V way. And that works well for me in my Compact-5/CNC -- especially after I reenforced the plastic gibs with an aluminum backup strip. Regarding wood, Module #1 is a small woodturning attachment. I wonder whether there is any chance that the Frog could be made to work with the Unimat 1. I frankly doubt that it is repeatable enough for it to be worth the trouble. I would suggest just skipping over the Unimat-1 and getting either the Taig or the Sherline. Or -- you could get really lucky, and get a Compact-5 (not the CNC model) for not too much. O.K. No Compact-5 lathes on eBay at the moment. Even an antique Unimat SL-1000 would be much better than the Unimat-1. Good Luck, DoN. -- Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
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Thanks for all the critical comments on the Unimat 1. I think ebay is out of my league, first of all from the standpoint of purchasing online, secondly from the standpoint of knowing what is worth buying and thirdly from the standpoint of being able to follow what is going on in an auction. There's no point in explaining to me how easy it really is to do it; I'm just not ready for it. "Module #2 Jig Saw: Completely safe (short stroke only vibrates the skin); max thickness: 7mm." That short stroke means that it cannot practically be used with thicker materials, as there is insufficient stroke to allow the chips to clear the workpiece. I wasn't too concerned about the saw, since I figured I can get an electric jig saw for about $20 or so at a hardware store if the need arises. The Unimat 1 does at least offer some crummy capability of doing both some lathe work and some milling machine work. I don't want to do entirely without milling machine capability and just rely on a lathe for everything. Given what I'm prepared to spend (under $500), I don't see how I can do better than a Unimat 1, even if it is a piece of junk. Whatever its limitations are, there must be a way to work with them. Good Luck, Thanks. Clearly, I'm going to need it. I apologize in advance for all the questions I'm going to have to ask about how to get things done on the Unimat 1 after I get it and I promise to accept with good grace and without complaint all of the excellent advice I will get about how I should really be using some other machine. I agree with all of it in advance. It's ultimately a question of money and I have very little discretionary capital. That being the case, I have to find a way to make the cheap toy do the job, but where there is a will there is a way. Meanwhile, I don't think I'll be unhappy about using it. I have a lot of experience learning under the most unlikely conditions. -- Ignorantly, Allan Adler * Disclaimer: I am a guest and *not* a member of the MIT CSAIL. My actions and * comments do not reflect in any way on MIT. Also, I am nowhere near Boston. |
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In article ,
Allan Adler wrote: Thanks for all the critical comments on the Unimat 1. I think ebay is out of my league, first of all from the standpoint of purchasing online, secondly from the standpoint of knowing what is worth buying and thirdly from the standpoint of being able to follow what is going on in an auction. There's no point in explaining to me how easy it really is to do it; I'm just not ready for it. O.K. So be it. "Module #2 Jig Saw: Completely safe (short stroke only vibrates the skin); max thickness: 7mm." That short stroke means that it cannot practically be used with thicker materials, as there is insufficient stroke to allow the chips to clear the workpiece. I wasn't too concerned about the saw, since I figured I can get an electric jig saw for about $20 or so at a hardware store if the need arises. Certainly -- I was just using that as an indicator of the limited capabilities of the rest of the "machine". The Unimat 1 does at least offer some crummy capability of doing both some lathe work and some milling machine work. I don't want to do entirely without milling machine capability and just rely on a lathe for everything. Given what I'm prepared to spend (under $500), Note that the Taig at least *used* to be offered with an optional milling attachment. That was an object which bolted onto the cross slide, and which had T-slots to allow attaching of workpieces to the vertical face. And that vertical face can move vertically with a handwheel at the top. It had two bars of steel which would bolt with t-nuts to the vertical face, one of which had setscrews to clamp a workpiece between the two -- sort of a bodyless miling vise. It was not very good, but more capable than I expect this plastic-bodied device to be. I don't see how I can do better than a Unimat 1, even if it is a piece of junk. Whatever its limitations are, there must be a way to work with them. Up to a certain point. When you are through with this, *you* will be the person who others are directed to when questions on the Unimat-1 are asked. Good Luck, Thanks. Clearly, I'm going to need it. I apologize in advance for all the questions I'm going to have to ask about how to get things done on the Unimat 1 after I get it Remember -- *you* are going to become the expert. I seem to remember that someone else got one a few years ago, wondering just how bad it can be. He discovered the answer to that. and I promise to accept with good grace and without complaint all of the excellent advice I will get about how I should really be using some other machine. I agree with all of it in advance. It's ultimately a question of money and I have very little discretionary capital. That being the case, I have to find a way to make the cheap toy do the job, but where there is a will there is a way. Meanwhile, I don't think I'll be unhappy about using it. I have a lot of experience learning under the most unlikely conditions. As I say -- you *will* become the expert. I once did a lot of things with a Unimat SL-1000. Not because it was truly capable, but because I only had room for that and a sensitive drill press (1/8" maximum chuck capacity) in my apartment. Whenever possible, I would use *real* machines at work, but there were weekends in which I spent hours setting up to mill a rectangular hole in 1/8" aluminum rack panel for mounting a meter, rather than waiting until I could take it in to work and find time to do it there. Enjoy, DoN. -- Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
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(DoN. Nichols) writes:
When you are through with this, *you* will be the person who others are directed to when questions on the Unimat-1 are asked. Oh, no, not that!!!! I had better rethink this.... Note that the Taig at least *used* to be offered with an optional milling attachment. I was hoping for something like that but the only thing I saw at the Taig site was a separate milling machine costing a lot more than the fully functioning lathe. On the other hand, it occurs to me that if some other company sells an inexpensive milling machine, say for around $300, that might be a possibility, together with the no-frills Taig lathe. What do you think of the improvised milling machine shown at http://members.rogers.com/lenwinn/mill_wlathe.html He says it cost him about 300 Canadian dollars to modify the drill press for this purpose, presumably including the vise he attached to it. I think he means also including the cost of the drill press. I don't know what it would cost now or what equipment would be needed to carry out this project. It seems possible that he didn't need anything but the drill press to carry out the modifications. Well, maybe he needed to tap some threads by hand. It doesn't look to me as though he had to do any welding, not that I can really tell. He also says he started off with a Taig lathe that he used for his lathe work and milling. I'm not sure whether he is talking about the attachment you mentioned or the milling machine he cooked up out of the drill or something else, for example something like what is described at: http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~chrish/tmilling.htm -- Ignorantly, Allan Adler * Disclaimer: I am a guest and *not* a member of the MIT CSAIL. My actions and * comments do not reflect in any way on MIT. Also, I am nowhere near Boston. |
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In article ,
Allan Adler wrote: (DoN. Nichols) writes: When you are through with this, *you* will be the person who others are directed to when questions on the Unimat-1 are asked. Oh, no, not that!!!! I had better rethink this.... :-) Note that the Taig at least *used* to be offered with an optional milling attachment. I was hoping for something like that but the only thing I saw at the Taig site was a separate milling machine costing a lot more than the fully functioning lathe. Because it needs one more axis of feed as a starter, thus one more dovetail assembly, and more metal to give it all rigidity. Also, the cheap or found electric motor which can be easily adapted to the lathe is more difficult to use for the milling machine, because the motor must be supported by the column with the milling head. On the other hand, it occurs to me that if some other company sells an inexpensive milling machine, say for around $300, that might be a possibility, together with the no-frills Taig lathe. Hmm ... let's look at the cheap Harbour freight milling machines. I've seen them, and they are at least a major step up from the Unimat-1 configured for milling. let's see -- there is the "Micro Mill-Drill" for $279.99. Check out the URL: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=47158 It is not much of a machine, but it is *far* beyond what you were considering. It is also well beyond the capabilities of the Taig with the milling attachment which I mentioned before, which itself is beyond the capabilities of the Unimat-1. Normally, I would suggest something even bigger, but bearing in mind your stated limitations, this may be the best bet you have. Beware that any milling machine or lathe will sooner or later double your investment in accessories and supplies. Do you have any precision measuring equipment, such as micometers? Those, at least, can be time-shared between the mill and the lathe. What do you think of the improvised milling machine shown at http://members.rogers.com/lenwinn/mill_wlathe.html He says it cost him about 300 Canadian dollars to modify the drill press for this purpose, presumably including the vise he attached to it. I think he means also including the cost of the drill press. I don't know what it would cost now or what equipment would be needed to carry out this project. It seems possible that he didn't need anything but the drill press to carry out the modifications. Well, maybe he needed to tap some threads by hand. It doesn't look to me as though he had to do any welding, not that I can really tell. Frankly -- it scares me. It is a combination of a cheap drill press (with all the rigidity issues that involves), and a small X-Y table with a vise mounted on it. Those tables are sort of reasonable for placing holes at reasonably accurate location, but the side thrusts involved in milling tends to rock the top of the workpiece on the rather wimpy ways. Second -- a drill press's quill is also not designed to take side loads. The bearings are designed for thrust loads only. The quill is usually rather sloppy in the head casting. (It looks as though he has attempted to work around that by tightening a bolt threaded through the side of the casting to press upon the side of the quill. (Look just in front of where the hub of the feed levers attaches. Third, a mill should be able to produce a fine feed of the quill, and to lock it at a certain extension. It looks as though the "locking" is accomplished by turning the stop assembly on the left partially upside down, to press down upon the quill, instead of stopping it at a preset depth. That bronze colored collar, with the white scale wrapped around it, should be above the black arm, and is adjusted according to the scale on the white sticker to the right of the threaded shaft. This lack of positive control of the quill position, let alone a lack of a way to *lock* it in position, means that if a cutter starts to dig in, as will happen on certain materials under certain conditions, it will pull the end mill deeper into the workpiece, probably spoiling the job. Forth (and this would have been first, had he not found a workaround) -- a drill chuck is *not* made for holding the hardened and ground sides of an endmill, so the endmill tends to pull out. And the chuck is normally attached to the spindle via a Jacobs taper, which is excellent on thrust loads, but which is known to let go under side loads, or loads which pull. Apparently, this one has a threaded spindle, instead of a standard Jacobs taper to fit the chuck (making it closer to a hand-held electric drill motor). And -- he has made an end-mill holder to screw onto the spindle, thus reducing that particular problem. This, he almost certainly made using the Taig you mention below. One final consideration is the diameter of the column. That is rather small to be handling the loads involved in milling, and is likely to flex and lead to serious chatter. If you want to study modification of a drill press to make a milling machine (sorta), go to google, and pull up a lot of dgoonz's postings in this newsgroup from a few years back. He also says he started off with a Taig lathe that he used for his lathe work and milling. I'm not sure whether he is talking about the attachment you mentioned or the milling machine he cooked up out of the drill or something else, for example something like what is described at: http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~chrish/tmilling.htm That one is talking about a milling attachment for a much more solid lathe -- a Myford, which is a top-quality (and far from affordable) lathe used by hobbists in the UK. And even with that, it is rather limited in capability, compared to a real milling machine. I would guess that the Myford with the milling attachment is probably about as capable as the Harbor Freight micro-mill indicated above. P.S. The person who got the Micro-Mill that I saw, got it to experiment with retrofitting it with CNC capability -- as he had already done on a slightly larger mill-drill from the same source. Good Luck, DoN. -- Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
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On 13 Dec 2004 23:04:40 -0500, (DoN. Nichols)
wrote: Hmm ... let's look at the cheap Harbour freight milling machines. I've seen them, and they are at least a major step up from the Unimat-1 configured for milling. let's see -- there is the "Micro Mill-Drill" for $279.99. Check out the URL: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=47158 I've looked at that in the store, maybe it might work ok, but I don't like the Morse taper spindle. The next one up has the R-8 spindle and is a much heavier machine. Morse taper collets are hard to find and very pricey. However, http://www.homier.com sells pretty much the same mill as the mini-mill, and for $100 less. Shipping is pretty high, they're not feather weights at over 100 pounds. Homier also has the 7 X 12 lathe for $300, but like any import machine, they will need work before they're working machines. Doesn't matter who you buy them from, about the only difference is that some of them have Morse taper spindles. MIcroMark has both, but the Morse taper in the spindle, the highest price available, and I find it hard to believe that their machines are anything except the same thing with a higher price. However, MicroMark offers a milling attachment that will fit any of the 7X lathes, and a tool post grinder that's reasonable, but somewhat restricted. Won't do internal grinds, external only, and not for something you'll want between centers, the pulley guard is bigger than the wheel. It works reasonably well, but only reasonably. Haven't looked at the milling attachment, did milling on both my Taig and the 6" Atlas, didn't like it on either one of them. Pretty shakey. |
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Greybeard writes:
However, http://www.homier.com sells pretty much the same mill as the mini-mill, and for $100 less. Shipping is pretty high, they're not feather weights at over 100 pounds. They use something that they call "Overnight shipping". There are probably cheaper options, but maybe Homier doesn't use them. They show shipping costs as being about $100 for one zip code and it can easily be a lot more. -- Ignorantly, Allan Adler * Disclaimer: I am a guest and *not* a member of the MIT CSAIL. My actions and * comments do not reflect in any way on MIT. Also, I am nowhere near Boston. |
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(DoN. Nichols) writes:
Hmm ... let's look at the cheap Harbour freight milling machines. I've seen them, and they are at least a major step up from the Unimat-1 configured for milling. let's see -- there is the "Micro Mill-Drill" for $279.99. Check out the URL: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=47158 Thanks for pointing this out. I'll call them and ask about shipping charges on that and other items (more on other items below). It is not much of a machine, but it is *far* beyond what you were considering. It is also well beyond the capabilities of the Taig with the milling attachment which I mentioned before, which itself is beyond the capabilities of the Unimat-1. At the Harbor Freight site, the mill/drill is one of a number of items they say come from "Central Machinery". I clicked on "View more Central Machinery items" and a few things caught my eye, including: (1) Item 40102-3 VGA, "8 in 3 multipurpose mini machine" for $189. Just change 47158 in the URL above to 40102. This seems like a fancier version of the Unimat 1, but at about half the price. (2) Item 39743-1 VGA, "Mini multipurpose machine (mill/drill/lathe)", $399. I can't really tell but this seems a lot sturdier than the Unimat 1, and only costs a little more. I don't know about shipping. Beware that any milling machine or lathe will sooner or later double your investment in accessories and supplies. Do you have any precision measuring equipment, such as micometers? Those, at least, can be time-shared between the mill and the lathe. No, I have no measuring instruments except for a ruler, a tape measure and a plastic protractor. I don't even have a bathroom scale. I have a level in the toolbox. Thanks for the critique of: http://members.rogers.com/lenwinn/mill_wlathe.html Greybeard said something about needing to make modifications in imported machines before they will work properly. I may not be qualified to do that. -- Ignorantly, Allan Adler * Disclaimer: I am a guest and *not* a member of the MIT CSAIL. My actions and * comments do not reflect in any way on MIT. Also, I am nowhere near Boston. |
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In article ,
Allan Adler wrote: (DoN. Nichols) writes: Hmm ... let's look at the cheap Harbor freight milling machines. I've seen them, and they are at least a major step up from the Unimat-1 configured for milling. let's see -- there is the "Micro Mill-Drill" for $279.99. Check out the URL: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=47158 Thanks for pointing this out. I'll call them and ask about shipping charges on that and other items (more on other items below). From other postings over time, I understand that they sometimes have free shipping for purchases over a certain amount -- if you have the magic code number for the month. I also understand that it does not exist for December. Keep your eyes open for the next posting of someone asking for it (next year) and someone replying. It is not much of a machine, but it is *far* beyond what you were considering. It is also well beyond the capabilities of the Taig with the milling attachment which I mentioned before, which itself is beyond the capabilities of the Unimat-1. At the Harbor Freight site, the mill/drill is one of a number of items they say come from "Central Machinery". I clicked on "View more Central Machinery items" and a few things caught my eye, including: (1) Item 40102-3 VGA, "8 in 3 multipurpose mini machine" for $189. Just change 47158 in the URL above to 40102. This seems like a fancier version of the Unimat 1, but at about half the price. 1/125th HP motors. If anything, perhaps weaker than the Unimat-1, though it appears to be made of a bit more metal. same restrictions -- "soft metals". I would skip this just as I would skip the Unimat 1. (2) Item 39743-1 VGA, "Mini multipurpose machine (mill/drill/lathe)", $399. I can't really tell but this seems a lot sturdier than the Unimat 1, and only costs a little more. I don't know about shipping. Something around 0.4 HP -- better than the above. And you *could* use it. But beware that while it is probably not too bad as a lathe, the milling function tends to be awkward. It is difficult to put things at the right height to allow the milling cutter proper access. The lathe size is a bit smaller than the Compact-5, but certain things are rather klugy. An example is found on page 28 of the manual (which you can download in PDF form). The compound of the lathe has the tool holder as a single piece with the moving part of the compound, resulting in a lack of ability to adjust the angle of the tool independent of the angle of the compound motion (something important for threading). Also -- it *can't* do left-hand threads. (I spent some time analyzing this a while back as a result of a question from someone else), and has no half-nuts so the threading is going to be a pain. There is only one leadscrew, and they don't say whether it is metric or inch, and very little in the way of choices of threads in either system. Also, the slowest spindle speed makes threading rather exciting, unless you do it without power, and fit a show-made crank to the spindle. I tend to dislike 3-in-1 machines, and this is a primary example of why. Far better to get separate machines for milling and turning, so you can upgrade each when you discover it is needed, without losing the other capability. Beware that any milling machine or lathe will sooner or later double your investment in accessories and supplies. Do you have any precision measuring equipment, such as micrometers? Those, at least, can be time-shared between the mill and the lathe. No, I have no measuring instruments except for a ruler, a tape measure and a plastic protractor. I don't even have a bathroom scale. I have a level in the toolbox. Look at 47257-5 VGA on the same site for at least an inexpensive start in both inch and metric measuring capability. A micrometer can be more accurate, but this is quick to use, and covers a lot more range than a single micrometer, as well as having the ability to convert between inch and mm at the touch of a button. Thanks for the critique of: http://members.rogers.com/lenwinn/mill_wlathe.html Greybeard said something about needing to make modifications in imported machines before they will work properly. I may not be qualified to do that. This mostly involves disassembling parts, cleaning out sand and grit, filing off burrs on the edges of dovetails and such, replacing cheap soft metal screws with higher quality ones (as needed), and reassembling, lubricating as you go. And this is not required by *all* import machines -- but those from Mainland China, India, and (to a lesser extent) Taiwan. Japanese equipment is excellent, these days. Austrian, German, Swiss, and UK equipment are all good to excellent. (And way out of reach, pricewise. :-) Finding stuff actually made in the USA is harder, and the Taig is one of the few examples in the reach of hobbists. Good Luck, DoN. -- Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
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On 14 Dec 2004 13:19:06 -0500, Allan Adler
wrote: Greybeard said something about needing to make modifications in imported machines before they will work properly. I may not be qualified to do that. Consists mostly of disassembling and removing the burrs, then putting it back together. Not a biggie, and gives an idea of how the machines really work. The only thing I don't disassemble is the spindle, I figure if that's out, it's time to chalk it up as a waste. (Unless, of course, I got it as a freebie from someone that gave up on it.) |
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Greybeard writes:
On 14 Dec 2004 13:19:06 -0500, Allan Adler wrote: Greybeard said something about needing to make modifications in imported machines before they will work properly. I may not be qualified to do that. Consists mostly of disassembling and removing the burrs, then putting it back together. One removes burrs with a file or with a grinder? (I have neither, at the moment). Not a biggie, and gives an idea of how the machines really work. I'm always glad for an excuse to take something apart, as long as I can put it back together properly. -- Ignorantly, Allan Adler * Disclaimer: I am a guest and *not* a member of the MIT CSAIL. My actions and * comments do not reflect in any way on MIT. Also, I am nowhere near Boston. |
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Allan Adler wrote:
(JMartin957) writes: Instead of the more complicated milling machines you mentioned, you really should consider buying an armstrong mill first. After you've learned to use it, you may find that you have no need for the Homer or the Harbor Freight or any of the other mills. Who sells them? What do they normally cost? I did a Google search for "armstrong mill" and "armstrong milling machine" and found out that Armstrong is a very common name for people and cities and companies in all areas of commerce, but nothing about the milling machine. I then did a dejanews search for articles containing the exact phrase "armstrong mill" that had appeared in rec.crafts.metalworking and found exactly one thread ("Old Armstrong Mill - what to look for?") from 1995, which discussed what seemed to be an antique. Probably a metaphor for using hand tools such as a chisel, drill and files. |
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Allan Adler wrote: (JMartin957) writes: Instead of the more complicated milling machines you mentioned, you really should consider buying an armstrong mill first. After you've learned to use it, you may find that you have no need for the Homer or the Harbor Freight or any of the other mills. Who sells them? What do they normally cost? I did a Google search for "armstrong mill" and "armstrong milling machine" and found out that Armstrong is a very common name for people and cities and companies in all areas of commerce, but nothing about the milling machine. I then did a dejanews search for articles containing the exact phrase "armstrong mill" that had appeared in rec.crafts.metalworking and found exactly one thread ("Old Armstrong Mill - what to look for?") from 1995, which discussed what seemed to be an antique. Probably a metaphor for using hand tools such as a chisel, drill and files. A file was just what I had in mind. Buying a file, and learning how to use it, should come before any consideration of a milling machine. Even a cheap one. But that's just my opinion. Others may disagree. John Martin |
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A file was just what I had in mind.
AKA Nicholson mill. I usually think of an Armstrong mill as a hacksaw... :^) --Glenn Lyford |
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(JMartin957) writes:
A file was just what I had in mind. Buying a file, and learning how to use it, should come before any consideration of a milling machine. Even a cheap one. But that's just my opinion. Others may disagree. Thanks for the clarification and opinion. If you don't mind, I'd like to understand your opinion a little better by asking a few questions. Suppose I decide to design a course entitled "File 101" and teach it to myself. (1) Is there a textbook? Does it come with a set of tests that I can administer to myself to determine whether I should be allowed to move on to the milling machine or whether I should be left back and have to take File 101 over again? (2) Apart from the textbook and tests, I will have to purchase some lab materials for the course, presumably one or more files. Do I need just one file to get what I need out of the course or do I need to get a set of files with various properties and characteristics? (In this connection, also see (9) below). How much should I expect to pay for the lot of them? (3) Presumably, I also need something to use the file(s) on. What might that be? Perhaps an assortment of different pieces of metal in different conditions requiring treatment with the file(s). Where do I get them? (4) I doubt that there is a shop that sells metal with burrs on it to people who need practice removing burrs with a file, so I probably need to learn how to take a piece of metal and modify it in some way so that I can practice filing it. So, let's postulate that the first thing one learns in the course is how to take a perfectly good piece of metal leave it in a condition which requires the use of the file(s) to correct. I find it easy to believe that it takes no special training to ruin a perfectly good piece of metal, but since I am designing a course and need a predictable set of exercises for me to administer to myself, probably the first thing the course should do is explain how to ruin metal in fairly specific ways. (5) Since we are assuming that knowledge of the use of a file is prior to knowledge of fancier tools, the tools that I can use to take perfectly good pieces of metal and turn them into pieces of metal that require improvement using files are probably somewhat limited. What tools would be ok to use along with files? Well, given the other responses to the question of armstrong tools, I would guess we are talking about handtools, including chisel, drill, files, hacksaw. So, the question (2) is naturally widened to include these other tools. I'm under the impression that no one ever thinks they have enough tools, so it is important to define the scope of the course carefully and choose the tools accordingly. (6) Once the knowledge is imparted of how to ruin a piece of metal in order to leave it in a predictable condition requiring a particular technique to correct, it then becomes possible to focus on those particular corrective techniques. That might be considered the proper content of the course. (7) Next, there needs to be a segment of the course, probably after enough experience has been gained with (1)-(6), which deals with cultivating the ability to determine: (a) Whether it is actually possible to correct a given condition. (b) Assuming it is possible, how much effort is involved. (c) Whether that much effort is worth it in a given context. (8) That sounds like a satisfactory course on the file itself, so far as technique is concerned. As far as the matter of competence in the use of files is concerned, that would probably be an adequate preparation for moving on to the milling machine. There might be further sections on applications to design and planning of projects to produce work using a file. (9) I will merely mention the pedagogical issue of whether, in teaching myself File 101, I should cover topics, possibly requiring investment in more tools and materials, that will broaden my general understanding but which I am unlikely to actually need in practice. Now that I think about it, I vaguely recall that I have in the past read discussions about using only handtools, and that there is actually a school of thought devoted to this high art. I'm not sure whether I read it here or on a woodworking group. I've also seen a TV program on PBS featuring someone who is a virtuoso at this kind of work. I think he has written one or more books, which I may have looked at. That being the case, I need some further clarification from (JMartin957), namely: why is it, exactly, that you feel knowledge of the file is prior to knowledge of the milling machine? Is it because: (A) you think that after a piece of work is turned out on the milling machine, it might need some touching up with a file and one needs to know how to do that without ruining the piece? Or, (B) because you generally prefer handtools and perhaps also regard it as a higher form of craftsmanship than the use of machine tools? -- Ignorantly, Allan Adler * Disclaimer: I am a guest and *not* a member of the MIT CSAIL. My actions and * comments do not reflect in any way on MIT. Also, I am nowhere near Boston. |
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(1) Is there a textbook? Likely several, look for high school texts in second-hand shops, I picked one up not too long ago and found it both educational and entertaining. The one I found is "Machine Tool Practices", ISBN 0-13-541848-8, I paid $1.98 at Half Price Books in FW, TX. Your results may vary. Does it come with a set of tests that I can administer to myself to determine whether I should be allowed to move on to the milling machine or whether I should be left back and have to take File 101 over again? In the case of the above, yes. Do I need just one file to get what I need out of the course or do I need to get a set of files with various properties and characteristics? While one would suffice to start the course, several will be of use long after you own said milling machine. To wit: Medium and coarse flat files (mill or mill *******), a medium and coarse square, a triangular, a coarse round, a half-round, and a chainsaw file (no particular size, since you're using it for general stuff rather than a saw chain). How much should I expect to pay for the lot of them? New, I have no idea. I buy used, and usually pay a buck each, with this caveat: if you run your thumb over it and it doesn't want to grab, it's dull, and not worth the buck. If you look at it and see a shine from the top of every tooth, it's dull, too. Buy at least one or two new Nicholson (non-cheapistani) files so you have a good idea what a sharp file should work like. (3) Presumably, I also need something to use the file(s) on. What might that be? Perhaps an assortment of different pieces of metal in different conditions requiring treatment with the file(s). AKA, scrap iron. Plain old mild steel works well for this. In a pinch, you can even buy it at hardware stores in flats, angles and rounds. Where do I get them? Junkyard, side of the road, tagsales, dumpster diving. It's a hobby in and of itself. (4) I doubt that there is a shop that sells metal with burrs on it to people who need practice removing burrs with a file, so I probably need to learn how to take a piece of metal and modify it in some way so that I can practice filing it. [...] probably the first thing the course should do is explain how to ruin metal in fairly specific ways. The easiest way is to set out to make something, be it useful or decorative, out of said scrap, which will nearly never be of the proper shape for the intended use. First step is to mark out with a scribe or marker (depending on how accurate your final piece needs to be) the desired end shape. The next step is to get it close to that shape by applying a coarse brute force method. A hacksaw is typical, though people have been known to resort to torches and bandsaws, or even several of the above. The idea here is to just miss the line you will eventually file to. All of these processes usually leave a coarse surface more than adequate for cleaning up with a file. (5) What tools would be ok to use along with files? chisel, drill, files, hacksaw. All of these will be of use, but particularly the hacksaw. Buy a good one with a high tension adjustment and several different tooth counts of US made name brand blades. The difference between this and a cheap saw frame holding cheapistani blades is an education in itself. So, the question (2) is naturally widened to include these other tools. I'd pay about $20 for a good hacksaw frame, and maybe that much again on several packages of good quality blades. (6) Once the knowledge is imparted of how to ruin a piece of metal in order to leave it in a predictable condition requiring a particular technique to correct, it then becomes possible to focus on those particular corrective techniques. That might be considered the proper content of the course. Indeed, and this is where said tech school text will be of particualr help, but you are also more than welcome to run particular questions past the accumulated wisdom of the group. As far as the matter of competence in the use of files is concerned, that would probably be an adequate preparation for moving on to the milling machine. I will merely note that while the textbook I mention is nominally about machines tools, they start by teaching you how to file. A review of the google archives searching for the words: apprentice, file, metalworking should turn up a lot of relevant discussion, particularly if you add "Bastow" to the list. A bunch of this may also be on yarchive.net/metal as well. (9) I will merely mention the pedagogical issue of whether, in teaching myself File 101, I should cover topics [...] which I am unlikely to actually need in practice. Unlikely. In fact one of the best ways to learn is to actually set out to make something practical. I vaguely recall that I have in the past read discussions about using only handtools, and that there is actually a school of thought devoted to this high art. I'm not sure whether I read it here or on a woodworking group. AKA, Neanderthals. Less common in metalworking, due to the amount of effort needed to remove large amounts of metal, though they do exist. They tend to work on smaller, high value projects, and will frequently respond to the title of "jeweler". HTH, and I think your approach to the subject is commendable, I like your thoroughness, and suspect you'll do well with it. Later, --Glenn Lyford |
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That being the case, I need some further clarification from (JMartin957), namely: why is it, exactly, that you feel knowledge of the file is prior to knowledge of the milling machine? Is it because: (A) you think that after a piece of work is turned out on the milling machine, it might need some touching up with a file and one needs to know how to do that without ruining the piece? Or, (B) because you generally prefer handtools and perhaps also regard it as a higher form of craftsmanship than the use of machine tools? -- Ignorantly, Allan Adler Or (C) because the simple act of buying a file and using how to use it might show the people on this newsgroup that you are really interested in working metal and not just reading, writing and asking questions about it? You obviously like reading, and you obviously like thinking about the consequences of what you are considering. Both of those qualities are commendable. At some point, though, you actually have to do something. Metalworking is a art in which skills have to be built on other skills. To talk about buying a milling machine when you don't own a file and don't know how to use one is like discussing the fine points of marathon running before you have learned to walk. It's asinine. Buy any of the metalworking books that also discuss hand tool methods. You've already been given some suggestions. Read them, buy some of the basic hand tools and learn to use them, and try making something. Anything. Perhaps then you'll be in a better position to know what type of milling machine will fit your needs. John Martin |
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#73
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Glenn Lyford wrote:
A file was just what I had in mind. AKA Nicholson mill. I usually think of an Armstrong mill as a hacksaw... :^) --Glenn Lyford And a Dremel tool is a "portable Bridgeport" |
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#74
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In article ,
Allan Adler wrote: (JMartin957) writes: A file was just what I had in mind. Buying a file, and learning how to use it, should come before any consideration of a milling machine. Even a cheap one. But that's just my opinion. Others may disagree. Thanks for the clarification and opinion. If you don't mind, I'd like to understand your opinion a little better by asking a few questions. Suppose I decide to design a course entitled "File 101" and teach it to myself. (1) Is there a textbook? Does it come with a set of tests that I can administer to myself to determine whether I should be allowed to move on to the milling machine or whether I should be left back and have to take File 101 over again? I understand that an apprentice was first given one or two files, and two pieces of steel. The task was to make a cube from one piece, and a hole through the other piece to accept that cube in any orientation, with no visible light around the cube as it passed through the hole. No, I haven't done that, but I've done a lot of work with files before I ever had access to even a lathe, let alone a milling machine, and I still use them for various things to this day, now that I have lots of powered machine tools ready to hand. I agree that you really *do* need to learn to use files and other hand tools to make things -- so you will know how to use them to repair the power tools once you get them -- either older tools which need repair, or cheap Chinese tools which need touch-up before they are depended upon for producing parts. In addition to the files, you ideally should get a file card (sort of like a curry comb for critters) to keep the teeth from getting clogged. Your long-winded belittling of the suggestion make me wonder about the amount of time I have spent answering your questions here. DoN. -- Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
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#75
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In addition to the files, you ideally should
get a file card (sort of like a curry comb for critters) to keep the teeth from getting clogged. Though in a pinch, you can also use a piece of copper or brass, and run it sideways along the angle of the file teeth, which will quickly wear it into a sort of sawtooth shape taylor made to fit the file. Sometimes works better than the file card. An old plumbing fitting or empty rifle shell works well if you mash it flat in a vise first. --Glenn Lyford |
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#76
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(JMartin957) writes:
You obviously like reading, and you obviously like thinking about the consequences of what you are considering. Both of those qualities are commendable. At some point, though, you actually have to do something. I have done some things. I took a crash shop course in a physics department a couple of decades ago in which I learned to use a lathe to make a plumb bob which unscrewed into two parts. I also used the milling machine on my own to take a piece of scrap aluminum (C shaped) and made it into a keyboard with pushbutton switches for a computer I was trying to design at the time. One of the most valuable lessons I learned from trying to design and build the computer from scratch was how costly it can be to invest money in a project without having thought it through completely. Since then, I'm a lot more careful. Having experienced the difference, I prefer to err on the side of caution. Continuing with things I've done: as a result of reading Gingery's book on the charcoal foundry, I built a little coffee can foundry, spent months collecting discarded soda cans from the side of the road, consulted with the local fire department about whatever regulations might apply and eventually melted some aluminum. I also built some frames for metal casting in sand. I didn't get further than that because I had to move and all my tools wound up in storage, where they are still located. So, at the moment, I have no tools except those in a little toolbox that the landlord left in the apartment. That has been the situation for a few years and I can't do anything about getting the stuff out of storage. Fortunately, it isn't costing me anything. Another thing I did was to design and build a blackboard that folds up into a shopping cart that could be used to carry the materials I needed to give lectures. (Never mind that it worked, but not very well, and looked ridiculous.) That was mostly woodworking with a saw and hand drill, which I also used it with an abrasive disk to cut some carriage bolts. I also used a metal brush attachment to the drill to remove some paint and rust from an old EICO oscilloscope. Also, when I was planning to give some public lectures on mathematics at a local Barnes and Noble (see http://www.swiss.csail.mit.edu/~adler/MATHCULT) and examining an old overhead projector I'd been lugging around for a decade or so, I accidentally broke one of the components, a thermostat that shut off the machine when the temperature got too high. I managed to locate the company that used to make it, get a schematic and parts list for the projector and find a vendor that sold a suitable replacement for the switch. I also realized that it was using asbestos, and found a supplier who provided me with a safer material to replace it. This took a few months. After that, I was able to use it in my lectures. I've done other things, not very impressive of course, but I would like to emphasize that I discussed most of them on this and other newsgroups, along with my progress on them. So, if you have the impression that I never do anything, you are mistaken. The simple fact is that, for several reasons, it is a lot harder for me to do things than it is for most of the other readers of this group. If I'm not progressing quickly, I'm not happy about that either, but it is the best I can do under the circumstances. I also know that I succeed occasionally and when I do there is nothing quite like it. Metalworking is a art in which skills have to be built on other skills. To talk about buying a milling machine when you don't own a file and don't know how to use one is like discussing the fine points of marathon running before you have learned to walk. It's asinine. How do you know I don't know how to use one? I have used files. I just don't happen to have any at the moment, since they are all in storage. Oh, I forgot: a few years before taking the crash course in the machine shop at the physics department, I audited a few sessions of a class on metalworking at the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston. I designed a certain sculpture based on the Barromean Rings (you might know them as the Ballantine beer rings, i.e. three rings which can't be separated but such that no two of them are actually linked, i.e., if you cut out any one of the rings, the other two aren't linked), cut out the parts with a hacksaw, and spent a lot of time smoothing them out and trying to adjust their shapes to something I found aesthetically pleasing with a set of little files. I was literally sculpting with the files. Maybe you are referring to my earlier question about removing burrs from parts of Harbor Freight machines, where I asked whether I should use a file or a grinder, and mentioned that I have neither. That was probably a stupid question, but it was motivated by the following considerations: (a) I don't really know anything about the parts of the imported machine that are going to need modification, neither their nature nor their exact condition nor how much care will be required in modifying them, given the uses to which they will be put. (b) Although I'm aware of using a file to remove burrs, having done it myself, I haven't done it recently and the topic wasn't fresh in my mind. (c) Even so, I've always regarded it as something one does to avoid getting cut by the burrs, not as something one does to protect or improve machinery, and therefore it is at least conceivable that some other method might be recommended when it is not simply a matter of cosmetics and of not getting cut. (d) Finally, from a strictly logical point of view, the fact that one *can* use a file to remove burrs doesn't mean one can't optionally use something else instead. The idea that one might use a grinder occurred to me off the top of my head, partly because I had been wondering whether I ought to get one. If it is a bad idea to use a grinder to fix the internals of Harbor Freight machines, that doesn't indicate that I don't know anything about files: it indicates that I don't know anything about grinders. And in fact, I don't, never having used one, even though I read a little about them in Joe Martin's Tabletop Machining. -- Ignorantly, Allan Adler * Disclaimer: I am a guest and *not* a member of the MIT CSAIL. My actions and * comments do not reflect in any way on MIT. Also, I am nowhere near Boston. |
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#77
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#78
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Allan Adler writes:
I audited a few sessions of a class on metalworking at the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston. I designed a certain sculpture based on the Barromean Rings [snip] cut out the parts with a hacksaw, and spent a lot of time smoothing Correction: It was a jeweler's saw. -- Ignorantly, Allan Adler * Disclaimer: I am a guest and *not* a member of the MIT CSAIL. My actions and * comments do not reflect in any way on MIT. Also, I am nowhere near Boston. |
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