I have an talanted engineering group here at work. We design and
build equipment for in house use and a couple of devices that we sell.

To address a safety issue of carying parts and materials up to a
mezanine, we designed a dumbwaiter. There were a lot of constraints
such as missing electrical conduits, air ducts, roof girders, etc and
the guys came up with a good design. It had to fit, and met the needs
of the crew that would actually use it. Doors were located in the
right place (with interlocks) and the heights were right, and so on.

We started to build the unit and all was well until the city was
informed. Then red flags flew and we were told that we were
unqualified, not licensed, etc etc.

I have since contacted several manufacturers of dumwaiters and they
are not interested in either blessing our design, or providing a unit
that will meet the requirements.

In the meantime our safety guy is nervous everytime an operator climbs
the stairs with hardware and (hazardous) materials in hand.

Are there any PE's that have experience in lifts that would like to
consult? We are in central Illinois

Thanks,

Bob

Bonza wrote:

I have an talanted engineering group here at work. We design and
build equipment for in house use and a couple of devices that we sell.

To address a safety issue of carying parts and materials up to a
mezanine, we designed a dumbwaiter. There were a lot of constraints
such as missing electrical conduits, air ducts, roof girders, etc and
the guys came up with a good design. It had to fit, and met the needs
of the crew that would actually use it. Doors were located in the
right place (with interlocks) and the heights were right, and so on.

We started to build the unit and all was well until the city was
informed. Then red flags flew and we were told that we were
unqualified, not licensed, etc etc.

I have since contacted several manufacturers of dumwaiters and they
are not interested in either blessing our design, or providing a unit
that will meet the requirements.

Just so you understand the city's concern, let me tell you
a little story. The grade school/high school that I attended
had a kitchen and lunchroom on the second floor. Because of
overcrowding in the lunchroom, it was decided that the grade
school, on the 1st floor, would eat lunch in their classrooms.
This was around 1964.

A very talented maintainance man offered to build a dumbwaiter
between the kitchen and the grade school hallway. The unit
performed excellently and the maintainance man received much
praise for his efforts. No accidents and no problems.

Fast forward to about the early '90's. The school, which was
built in the 20's is empty and waiting to be converted into
condominiums. A pair of boys break in and decide it would be
fun to ride the dumbwaiter up to the kitchen. What exactly
they did, I don't know, but one of them ended up crushed to
death.

I'm sorry that I can't present any cites for this story, so
don't ask. To the best of my knowledge it it true.

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 12:40:20 -0700, the renowned Jim Stewart
wrote:

Just so you understand the city's concern, let me tell you
a little story. The grade school/high school that I attended
had a kitchen and lunchroom on the second floor. Because of
overcrowding in the lunchroom, it was decided that the grade
school, on the 1st floor, would eat lunch in their classrooms.
This was around 1964.

A very talented maintainance man offered to build a dumbwaiter
between the kitchen and the grade school hallway. The unit
performed excellently and the maintainance man received much
praise for his efforts. No accidents and no problems.

Fast forward to about the early '90's. The school, which was
built in the 20's is empty and waiting to be converted into
condominiums. A pair of boys break in and decide it would be
fun to ride the dumbwaiter up to the kitchen. What exactly
they did, I don't know, but one of them ended up crushed to
death.

I'm sorry that I can't present any cites for this story, so
don't ask. To the best of my knowledge it it true.

One of the local Chinese restaurants had one to carry food from the
(IIRC) upstairs kitchen down to the restaurant level. A waiter was
decapitated by it. Scary stuff, especially from a liability POV.
You'll need a PE with specific knowledge of the industry and
standards.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Spehro,
You are exactly right. I am looking for a consultant whth documented
experience in this area. And he must be licensed in Illinois. The
company is willing to compensate that person at appropriate levels.

Bob

(Bonza) writes:

To address a safety issue of carying parts and materials up to a
mezanine, we designed a dumbwaiter.

We started to build the unit and all was well until the city was
informed. Then red flags flew and we were told that we were
unqualified, not licensed, etc etc.

Did they have specific issues with your design, or just with your
credentials?

In the meantime our safety guy is nervous everytime an operator climbs
the stairs with hardware and (hazardous) materials in hand.

How often would this get used? What if the operator goes up the
stairs and then brings the stuff up on a hoist after he's up
there? Or use a forklift, if one is available.

Maybe an elevator inspector could tell you where to look. Find a name in
any elevator.

- Owen -

"Bonza" wrote in message
om...
I have an talanted engineering group here at work. We design and
build equipment for in house use and a couple of devices that we sell.

To address a safety issue of carying parts and materials up to a
mezanine, we designed a dumbwaiter. There were a lot of constraints
such as missing electrical conduits, air ducts, roof girders, etc and
the guys came up with a good design. It had to fit, and met the needs
of the crew that would actually use it. Doors were located in the
right place (with interlocks) and the heights were right, and so on.

We started to build the unit and all was well until the city was
informed. Then red flags flew and we were told that we were
unqualified, not licensed, etc etc.

I have since contacted several manufacturers of dumwaiters and they
are not interested in either blessing our design, or providing a unit
that will meet the requirements.

In the meantime our safety guy is nervous everytime an operator climbs
the stairs with hardware and (hazardous) materials in hand.

Are there any PE's that have experience in lifts that would like to
consult? We are in central Illinois

Thanks,

Bob

Hey Bonza,

Get a local architect, and a General Contractor. Oh, and a friendly
bank manager.

I can't speak to the ANSI Elevator and Lifts Codes, although there is
a strong slant to making them homogeneous, but the CSA B-44 Code here
in Canada runs to well over 400 pages, with additional supplements
for residential and handicap lifts. Plus Ontario has additional for
it's own jurisdiction (although a lot of that has to do with
enforcement), and each city or fire district will have specifics that
only a local architect will know/understand.

Even as a licensed skilled tradesman in the field, I still don't know
"WHY" some of the code/rules exist, but I do know that the great
proportion of them were written "after the fact"!! I also make it a
point not to get involved in discussions of "unlicensed" elevating
devices here in this forum, so this ends my contribution.

Take care. Seriously.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.

ps... get a spell checker. I don't mean that as a slight, but it
always makes one wonder about the capabilities of others to dabble in
fields in which they are not educated when they can't or don't even
spell well or carefully.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


On 24 Aug 2004 11:26:44 -0700, (Bonza) wrote:

I have an talanted engineering group here at work. We design and
build equipment for in house use and a couple of devices that we sell.

To address a safety issue of carying parts and materials up to a
mezanine, we designed a dumbwaiter. There were a lot of constraints
such as missing electrical conduits, air ducts, roof girders, etc and
the guys came up with a good design. It had to fit, and met the needs
of the crew that would actually use it. Doors were located in the
right place (with interlocks) and the heights were right, and so on.

We started to build the unit and all was well until the city was
informed. Then red flags flew and we were told that we were
unqualified, not licensed, etc etc.

I have since contacted several manufacturers of dumwaiters and they
are not interested in either blessing our design, or providing a unit
that will meet the requirements.

In the meantime our safety guy is nervous everytime an operator climbs
the stairs with hardware and (hazardous) materials in hand.

Are there any PE's that have experience in lifts that would like to
consult? We are in central Illinois

Thanks,

Bob

Hmmmmmmm,

Ahem!! I'm still shakin' from one I saw in the TO area in
somebodies house!!!

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 20:12:22 GMT, Spehro Pefhany
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 12:40:20 -0700, the renowned Jim Stewart
wrote:

Just so you understand the city's concern, let me tell you
a little story. The grade school/high school that I attended
had a kitchen and lunchroom on the second floor. Because of
overcrowding in the lunchroom, it was decided that the grade
school, on the 1st floor, would eat lunch in their classrooms.
This was around 1964.

A very talented maintainance man offered to build a dumbwaiter
between the kitchen and the grade school hallway. The unit
performed excellently and the maintainance man received much
praise for his efforts. No accidents and no problems.

Fast forward to about the early '90's. The school, which was
built in the 20's is empty and waiting to be converted into
condominiums. A pair of boys break in and decide it would be
fun to ride the dumbwaiter up to the kitchen. What exactly
they did, I don't know, but one of them ended up crushed to
death.

I'm sorry that I can't present any cites for this story, so
don't ask. To the best of my knowledge it it true.

One of the local Chinese restaurants had one to carry food from the
(IIRC) upstairs kitchen down to the restaurant level. A waiter was
decapitated by it. Scary stuff, especially from a liability POV.
You'll need a PE with specific knowledge of the industry and
standards.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

In article ,
(Ron Bean) wrote:

(Bonza) writes:

To address a safety issue of carying parts and materials up to a
mezanine, we designed a dumbwaiter.

We started to build the unit and all was well until the city was
informed. Then red flags flew and we were told that we were
unqualified, not licensed, etc etc.

Did they have specific issues with your design, or just with your
credentials?

In the meantime our safety guy is nervous everytime an operator climbs
the stairs with hardware and (hazardous) materials in hand.

How often would this get used? What if the operator goes up the
stairs and then brings the stuff up on a hoist after he's up
there? Or use a forklift, if one is available.


I suspect the problem is with a *powered* dumbwaiter. A bucket and a
pulley and a rope would not be regulated. Maybe the solution is to
study the definition of dumbwaiter and design something thet does not
meet the legal definition.

--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/

We genius type people do have problems
spelling we can find other peoples mistakes
quickly.Well i now a guy that made millions but had to call the neibor to spell
some words .A man can show his intelagents
if he has enough money to hire people
smarter then him

In article , Brian Lawson says...

Even as a licensed skilled tradesman in the field, I still don't know
"WHY" some of the code/rules exist, but I do know that the great
proportion of them were written "after the fact"!! I also make it a
point not to get involved in discussions of "unlicensed" elevating
devices here in this forum, so this ends my contribution.

Ah, is this because of the guy a few years ago who was
making a home elevator, and solicited suggestions here?

What ever did come of that projet I wonder.

I do specifically recall that that there were some
good technical suggestions, but the majority opinion
seemed to be "That's Probabably a Bad Idea."

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

(Ron Bean)
Did they have specific issues with your design, or just with your
credentials?

They never looked at the design. Only the concept of a non-elevator
company installing what they considered to be an elevator.


How often would this get used? What if the operator goes up the
stairs and then brings the stuff up on a hoist after he's up
there? Or use a forklift, if one is available.

The duty cycle is probably 10 cycles/day A forklift would not work
because it takes up a lot of room, and the actual live load is only 10
to 30 lbs. I have a forklift here, but it is a 5000 lb machine that
is old, big, and way over kill.

The materials in the dumbwaiter car are laboratory glassware and
chemicals

There is no hassle like building inspector hassle,
and elevators are the crowning glory of building inspector hassle.

NEVER EVER EVER refer to it as an elevator or dumb waiter,
it is a reciprocating conveyor.

If it was my project, I would try to adapt the building to a ready-designed
device such as:

http://www.pflow.com/Pages/Package.html

(Bonza) wrote in message . com...
I have an talanted engineering group here at work. We design and
build equipment for in house use and a couple of devices that we sell.

To address a safety issue of carying parts and materials up to a
mezanine, we designed a dumbwaiter. There were a lot of constraints
such as missing electrical conduits, air ducts, roof girders, etc and
the guys came up with a good design. It had to fit, and met the needs
of the crew that would actually use it. Doors were located in the
right place (with interlocks) and the heights were right, and so on.

We started to build the unit and all was well until the city was
informed. Then red flags flew and we were told that we were
unqualified, not licensed, etc etc.

I have since contacted several manufacturers of dumwaiters and they
are not interested in either blessing our design, or providing a unit
that will meet the requirements.

In the meantime our safety guy is nervous everytime an operator climbs
the stairs with hardware and (hazardous) materials in hand.

Are there any PE's that have experience in lifts that would like to
consult? We are in central Illinois

Thanks,

Bob

I suspect the problem is with a *powered* dumbwaiter. A bucket and a
pulley and a rope would not be regulated. Maybe the solution is to
study the definition of dumbwaiter and design something thet does not
meet the legal definition.
**************************
I just looked it up in the BOCA national building code book, section
26. They do not differentiate between powered and non-powered units.

Hope my spelling is good enough!

We need to have a legal installation. We're not trying to skirt the
law here. It is just that I have yet to find a vendor that is willing
to build to our specifications.

Bob

On 25 Aug 2004 10:55:36 -0700, (Bonza) wrote:

(Ron Bean)
Did they have specific issues with your design, or just with your
credentials?

They never looked at the design. Only the concept of a non-elevator
company installing what they considered to be an elevator.


How often would this get used? What if the operator goes up the
stairs and then brings the stuff up on a hoist after he's up
there? Or use a forklift, if one is available.

The duty cycle is probably 10 cycles/day A forklift would not work
because it takes up a lot of room, and the actual live load is only 10
to 30 lbs. I have a forklift here, but it is a 5000 lb machine that
is old, big, and way over kill.

The materials in the dumbwaiter car are laboratory glassware and
chemicals
How about a very steeply inclined conveyor (say 85 degrees from the
horizontal). I have a 3/4 HP clutch motor ideal to power this - the
operating lever in the normal position applies a brake to the drive
pulley, mid position, the brake is released allowing gravity to run
the conveyor in reverse to lower the load, pull the leaver all the way
and the load comes up.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

Have you considered contacting a company that builds and sells them like
this one?

http://auton.com/content/smartwaiter.html

With as much trouble as you're having it may be much more cost effective to
find one that has already been approved in similar situations.

Best Regards,
Keith Marshall


"Even if you are on the right track, you'll
get run over if you just sit there."
- Will Rogers (1879-1935).


"Bonza" wrote in message
om...
I have an talanted engineering group here at work. We design and
build equipment for in house use and a couple of devices that we sell.

To address a safety issue of carying parts and materials up to a
mezanine, we designed a dumbwaiter. There were a lot of constraints
such as missing electrical conduits, air ducts, roof girders, etc and
the guys came up with a good design. It had to fit, and met the needs
of the crew that would actually use it. Doors were located in the
right place (with interlocks) and the heights were right, and so on.

We started to build the unit and all was well until the city was
informed. Then red flags flew and we were told that we were
unqualified, not licensed, etc etc.

I have since contacted several manufacturers of dumwaiters and they
are not interested in either blessing our design, or providing a unit
that will meet the requirements.

In the meantime our safety guy is nervous everytime an operator climbs
the stairs with hardware and (hazardous) materials in hand.

Are there any PE's that have experience in lifts that would like to
consult? We are in central Illinois

Thanks,

Bob

Never ask a question unless you know the answer (and are prepared to
live with it.) Too late for you but for future use, just build the damn
thing and use it. If it carried people, I'd say whole different story.
Bureaucrats and stupid red tape will drive anybody to drink.

bob g.

BTW, I lived in a house about 35 years ago where the owner's son had
installed an "elevator" for his aging mother. Two pieces of pipe served
as guides and what I'll call an electric chain hoist for motive power.
The hoist had a rocker type switch. A piece of clothes line was
attached to each end of the rocker, passed through holes in the ceiling
and floor of the cab and held down by a pair of sash weights on the
basement floor. You had to take a new purchase on a rope (which one
depended on whether you were going up or down) from time to time as your
trip progresses. It actually depended on the operator to let go of the
rope at the appropriate time. No over travel protection. Ah, for the
good old days.

Bonza wrote:

(Ron Bean)

Did they have specific issues with your design, or just with your
credentials?


They never looked at the design. Only the concept of a non-elevator
company installing what they considered to be an elevator.


How often would this get used? What if the operator goes up the
stairs and then brings the stuff up on a hoist after he's up
there? Or use a forklift, if one is available.


The duty cycle is probably 10 cycles/day A forklift would not work
because it takes up a lot of room, and the actual live load is only 10
to 30 lbs. I have a forklift here, but it is a 5000 lb machine that
is old, big, and way over kill.

The materials in the dumbwaiter car are laboratory glassware and
chemicals

(Bonza) writes:

The duty cycle is probably 10 cycles/day

OK, a bit more than once an hour.

The materials in the dumbwaiter car are laboratory glassware and
chemicals

So you need it to be stable (I can see why they get nervous about
hand-carrying it). How hazardous is this stuff?

Also, what is the reason for taking it upstairs in the first
place? Can that function be relocated? (Maybe swap space with
something else?)

I just looked it up in the BOCA national building code book, section
26. They do not differentiate between powered and non-powered units.

How about if it's not permanently installed? Then it's not part
of the building. That's why I was thinking you could use some
kind of off-the-shelf hoist. But you need some way to keep it
level on the way up, so you don't spill anything (also, you need
to make sure it's contained in case the cable breaks).

I'm sure you could find someone to build you a full-blown elevator.
By the time you add the liability insurance (for the vendor), I wonder
how much difference there would be in the total cost.

(Bonza) wrote:
To address a safety issue of carying parts and materials up to a
mezanine, we designed a dumbwaiter. There were a lot of constraints
such as missing electrical conduits, air ducts, roof girders, etc and
the guys came up with a good design. It had to fit, and met the needs
of the crew that would actually use it. Doors were located in the
right place (with interlocks) and the heights were right, and so on.

We started to build the unit and all was well until the city was
informed. Then red flags flew and we were told that we were
unqualified, not licensed, etc etc.

Is there a size limit? What is and what is not an elevator must be
defined somewhere.


Tim
--
Cook my sock.

Bob,

I don't think you will find what you are looking for.

From the fact that companies you have already contacted will not even
consider signing off on your design and implementation, it tells me
that you have a design that would not pass code.

Trying to find a PE to sign off your already implemented design will
not get you off the hook. Any PE worth the title will not place
himself on the line legally and financially just because you have it
in place. In fact, I suspect that may be part of the problem. Any
lifting design used as you indicate it will be used has a very
specific and ordered sequence of steps that has to be taken to migrate
the legal risk associated with it.

If it was me, I would consider starting with a clean slate and have a
design done by a company with a proven track. My experience has been
if you follow the procedures in place, things get done and done right
the first time.

Good luck with your efforts.

TMT


(Bonza) wrote in message . com...
Spehro,
You are exactly right. I am looking for a consultant whth documented
experience in this area. And he must be licensed in Illinois. The
company is willing to compensate that person at appropriate levels.

Bob

Hey guys,

Here's some real engineering that might be of interest:

http://www.midsun.uwaterloo.ca/

They just broke the Official World Record, and are chasing the
unofficial as well. They will be through Phoenix and headed to
Albuquerque Thursday.

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.

So you need it to be stable (I can see why they get nervous about
hand-carrying it). How hazardous is this stuff?


The glassware is for chemical processing equipment. The nature of the
process requires height. The glass is cleaned between runs so it
comes down and goes back up. We run 4 units like this. The materials
used include a significant quantity of liquid mercury.

Also, what is the reason for taking it upstairs in the first
place? Can that function be relocated? (Maybe swap space with
something else?)


I wish we could, but it is physically impossible.



I just looked it up in the BOCA national building code book, section
26. They do not differentiate between powered and non-powered units.

How about if it's not permanently installed? Then it's not part
of the building. That's why I was thinking you could use some
kind of off-the-shelf hoist. But you need some way to keep it
level on the way up, so you don't spill anything (also, you need
to make sure it's contained in case the cable breaks).

I'm sure you could find someone to build you a full-blown elevator.
By the time you add the liability insurance (for the vendor), I wonder
how much difference there would be in the total cost.


I found another vendor and the spec package will go out to him today


Thanks for your reply,

Bob

(Too_Many_Tools) wrote in message . com...
Bob,

I don't think you will find what you are looking for.

From the fact that companies you have already contacted will not even
consider signing off on your design and implementation, it tells me
that you have a design that would not pass code.


Hi TMT,
One vendor was loaded with work, another 2 said that it was thir
standard unit only. 2 more I had trouble getting the spec package to
via email, so I am burning CD's and mailing today. I was sending an
e-drawing that we generated in solidworks and their firewall bounced
it. We found another vendor yesterday afternoon and will be sending a
spec package to them as well


Trying to find a PE to sign off your already implemented design will
not get you off the hook. Any PE worth the title will not place
himself on the line legally and financially just because you have it
in place. In fact, I suspect that may be part of the problem. Any
lifting design used as you indicate it will be used has a very
specific and ordered sequence of steps that has to be taken to migrate
the legal risk associated with it.


I started to, but have not finished building or erecting anythng. We
can cut our losses without loosing much.


If it was me, I would consider starting with a clean slate and have a
design done by a company with a proven track. My experience has been
if you follow the procedures in place, things get done and done right
the first time.

Good luck with your efforts.

Thanks. We'll keep at it



TMT


(Bonza) wrote in message . com...
Spehro,
You are exactly right. I am looking for a consultant whth documented
experience in this area. And he must be licensed in Illinois. The
company is willing to compensate that person at appropriate levels.

Bob

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

Bob,

I don't think you will find what you are looking for.

From the fact that companies you have already contacted will not even
consider signing off on your design and implementation, it tells me
that you have a design that would not pass code.

Or, the effort involved in checking his design is too expensive.
A lot of companies have standard designs that they mod/embellish for the
job and the design costs have been well amortised/writen off.

In article , jim rozen says...

Ah, is this because of the guy a few years ago who was
making a home elevator, and solicited suggestions here?

What ever did come of that projet I wonder.


Oh well. I guess he never did survive it's operation.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"Bonza" wrote in message
om...
(Ron Bean)
Did they have specific issues with your design, or just with your
credentials?

They never looked at the design. Only the concept of a non-elevator
company installing what they considered to be an elevator.


I'm having a hard time figuring out what would be an "elevator" and what
wouldn't. (Anything that lifts something up is an elevator, when you think
about it.) Would a scissor lift get rejected, even if you bought it from a
commercial vendor?

The only other idea I have (and I guess others have suggested it) is a
vertical conveyor, like buckets (or boxes) going up full on one side, and
coming down empty on the other. If they were on gimbals you woudn't have to
worry about the contents ever tipping out, as long as you kept the CG low
enough. Such a beast could be completely loaded at one end, until all the
boxes were full, and completely emptied at the other end by just having a
pair of start and stop buttons at each end. You could add whatever
interlocks you need to keep it from being started when the gate is open.
I'm also picturing lots of empty space in the hollow shaft so if something
did start up when it shouldn't a person would have room enough to move out
of the way.

Are you going to have two people to load and empty this thing, or are you
just trying to minimize trips upstairs by the one person that must load it?

- Owen -