On Mon, 07 Dec 2015 19:14:22 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 21:03:18 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 19:26:08 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 18:29:20 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 16:43:08 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 15:46:17 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On 06 Dec 2015 16:01:54 -0400, Mike Spencer
wrote:


Ed Huntress writes:

A Steampunk washing machine! But you need a "Casey Jones Engineer"
certificate to run it. d8-)

There were wringer washers that ran on small gasoline engines. In the
70s, an old guy near me said he remembered (gesturing toward the road
he lived on) when they came up along there installing power poles,
hooking up houses, in the 1930s. Right behind them came a salesman
selling electric wringer washers.

Yeah, we had the gasoline-engined washers here, too. I remember seeing
some as a kid, in south New Jersey.
I've got the engine..

See: http://snyder.on.ca/pages/Old%20Engi...501_engine.htm

Very cool. Johnson Outboards made a motor for washing machines in the
1930s. And, if you have a copy of the 1952 edition of _The Boy
Mechanic_ (I do), they have a plan for a flat-bottomed "sea sled" boat
powered by one. It used a piece of rubber garden hose for a coupler to
the prop shaft.

OMC was Johnson. (also Evinrude) and this engine was sold under all 3
names at one point.
I've seen the plans. Saw one built with a twin cyl 2 stroke Maytag
years ago. There wereplans to build a midget car and a scooter using
the iron horse too - as well as plans for and a commercially built
Maytag Midget.

The "horse" was also used on quite a few early lawn mowers and some
generators and garden tractors.

They also built 2 stroke iron horse engines (used on early Lawn Boy
and Jacobsen mowers)

There's a lot of charm in those old engines. I have only one of them
left -- an O&R from the '60s (I think -- maybe the '50s).

It's interesting that we never feel that from electric motors. g The
motor that powers my bench disk sander is a 1-hp GE Century from
before WWII. It's as big as a microwave oven, and all of the inertia
makes for a great disk sander. But it has as much charm as a sump
pump.
That - sump pump with the vertical shaft and column removed - is what
powers my Dunlap jigsaw.
---

Gerry :-)}
London,Canada

Mine is from our first dishwasher. g You're the only other person I
know who has a Dunlop jigsaw. I still have to make a blade guide for
it. The old one plumb wore out, and I haven't used it for at least ten
years.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 11:51:17 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 12:27:54 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:


I might expect one relay for each water temp, one for motor start, and
maybe one for switching into spin mode, but 12? What the hell does
your washer DO, besides wash clothes? Iron, fold, and stack, too?

No, no no! This thing is a computer video game with a washing machine
grafted on the side for grins!

OK, yes, there is cold and hot water main inlet. Then, the incoming water
can go straight into the tub, or it can be diverted into the softener tank,
the detergent tank or the bleach tank, to deliver some of that product into
the tub. Then, when the recirculate pump is on, it has valves to select
where that water goes. It has two pumps (recirculate and drain) and a VFD
to run the drum motor. There is a spline coupling between the motor and the
basket. When the tub is filled to a certain level, an air chamber floats
the basket up to disconnect the spin coupling, and then the motor is rocked
back and forth for the agitate function. When draining, the basket lands on
the coupling, and then the motor tweaks back and forth gently until the
basket seats the coupling onto the shaft before starting the spin cycle, so
as not to tear up the coupling.

The pump motors look kind of like giant photograph motors, so apparently
they are 120 V shaded pole motors, but have magnets in the rotor. The
recirculate motor starts smoothly, but the larger drain motor rattles and
vibrates for a while until the rotor falls into sync. Quite a strange way
to do things. So, I think two of the big relays are for the pump motors.
Another big relay must be for the heater, but I think our actual machine
does NOT have a heater installed in the tub.

I was able to download the service manual for the thing, by pressing certain
buttons, you can activate multiple diagnostic and test procedures that
exercise and partially self-test verious parts of the machine.

Sheesh, what a bunch of complexity, to do what used to be done with some
smooth rocks down at the riverside!

Praps y'all should pursue these 2 less technical devices?
http://tinyurl.com/ngmuzox and http://tinyurl.com/q57xduk

They sure beat rocks. (Well, a bit.)
Re the laundry tubs; have you ever taken a bath in a concrete bath
tub? In 1946 my maternal grandfather came to live with us, he missed
his big city bathtub and disliked the Saturday night ritual in the
round, galvanized laundry tub so he built forms and cast his own
concrete bath tub -full size with three inch walls - took eight men to
move one. Idon't know if there are any left - he cast about a dozen
for neighbours - our developed a crack when it was moved from behind
the kitchen stove into the new fangled indoor bathroom in 1960 and was
replaced with a more modern unit. That tub taught me to appreciate the
rubber bath mat!
---

Gerry :-)}
London,Canada

On Mon, 07 Dec 2015 19:33:00 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 11:51:17 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 12:27:54 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:
Sheesh, what a bunch of complexity, to do what used to be done with some
smooth rocks down at the riverside!

Praps y'all should pursue these 2 less technical devices?
http://tinyurl.com/ngmuzox and http://tinyurl.com/q57xduk

They sure beat rocks. (Well, a bit.)
Re the laundry tubs; have you ever taken a bath in a concrete bath
tub?

Thankfully, NO!


In 1946 my maternal grandfather came to live with us, he missed
his big city bathtub and disliked the Saturday night ritual in the
round, galvanized laundry tub so he built forms and cast his own
concrete bath tub -full size with three inch walls - took eight men to
move one. Idon't know if there are any left - he cast about a dozen
for neighbours - our developed a crack when it was moved from behind
the kitchen stove into the new fangled indoor bathroom in 1960 and was
replaced with a more modern unit. That tub taught me to appreciate the
rubber bath mat!

I can imagine.

--
Courage and perseverance have a magical talisman, before
which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into air.
-- John Quincy Adams

On Mon, 07 Dec 2015 17:00:19 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:

Leon Fisk wrote:

On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 12:27:54 -0600
Jon Elson wrote:

snip
Sheesh, what a bunch of complexity, to do what used to be done with some
smooth rocks down at the riverside!

Still using the old Speed Queen Wringer Washer the parents bought in
the late 60's...

A friend of mine has a log cabin in the Missouri Ozarks. He has a
Frigidaire (I think) washer that must have been made in 1946 or something.
Seems a little too modern to have been made before most industries shut down
during the great depression, so I'm taking a wild guess. You fill it with a
water hose, drain it by putting the drain hose on the ground, and it has a
wringer. He says it still works, but I have not actually seen him fire it
up. Looks like a fair bit of trouble to use, and that wringer looks
seriously dangerous.

Oh, they are, but they're also a whole lot more effective than the
spin cycles on the majority of new washers. The downside is that they
press in creases in some materials. BTDT, got the wrinkles and
pinched fingers. I do _not_ miss working at the car wash where that
beastie was housed.

--
Courage and perseverance have a magical talisman, before
which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into air.
-- John Quincy Adams

On Mon, 07 Dec 2015 12:25:25 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
wrote:

On Sun, 6 Dec 2015 07:37:11 -0800 (PST), rangerssuck
wrote:

On Saturday, December 5, 2015 at 11:41:05 PM UTC-5, Jon Elson wrote:
Larry Jaques wrote:


So, are you going to tell me that this is a coincidence, or are these
thieving bastids designing this crap to fail quickly, then making an
equal amount (to the sales profit) by servicing their dead crap? I'm
strongly guessing the latter. sigh
No, I think the evil *******s is pretty appropriate! On the other hand, it
may have just been ONE crappy relay. I bought a bunch of parts to put arc
suppressors on all the relays, but never did install them. So, there are
still 11 relays of two different types perking along merrily for the last 3+
years! I was expecting the rest of the relays to start failing, but that
hasn't happened.

Jon

It may not have been a bad relay, but may have been that the one relay that went bad was being asked to do something out of spec.

Life of a mechanical relay is typically only 50-100,000 operations at
full rated load. Often even less for motor rated relays. That's
completely specified, sometimes there is a curve showing typical life
at lower than rated current, and you can easily test for that (at 2
seconds per operaton 100,000 operations takes a couple days, and you
can test for 1,000,000 in a few weeks) . At only 10 operations per
hour in a product, 24/7, a 100k operations relay will last less than 2
years.

Here's one that's rated for only 25,000 operations at rated current
*resistive* load.
https://www.omron.com/ecb/products/p...pdf/en-g5q.pdf

Now as an engineer working for an appliance manufacturer, do you
recommend a $5 relay (longer life or heavily derated) instead of a 50
cent one to make it last 10-20 years rather than 5 average, knowing
that will increase the retail price by $50+, or do you use the cheaper
part? Do you make the same decision for all the **other** parts that
have a definite life span, and if so will you still have a job- or
will your product be affordable enough to sell in the required
quantities. It's not really evil, just an economic decision.

If you're a smart manufacturer, you offer one at each price point.
Maytag vs Magic Chef brands from the same mfgr. The only problem is
that they apparently stopped putting the good stuff in Maytags, too,
but didn't drop the prices.

--
Courage and perseverance have a magical talisman, before
which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into air.
-- John Quincy Adams

wrote:

Do these motors have the shorted winding? A
heavy, like 10 gauge maybe, bare copper loop near one of the corners
of the lamination stack, opposite the coil? If so then they are indeed
shaded pole motors.

Well, I don't remember! I had them out a couple months ago to get a quarter
out of the drain pump, and I kind of thought it had the pole shade winding,
but now I can't be sure. But, the pumps need to spin in the right
direction, and with only one winding, I can't imagine how it could start for
sure in the right direction wothout a shaded pole. Well, Likely I'll be
back into the thing for some issue or other in a while, and I'll take a
better look at them.

Jon

On Mon, 07 Dec 2015 19:19:32 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Mon, 07 Dec 2015 19:14:22 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 21:03:18 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 19:26:08 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 18:29:20 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 16:43:08 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 15:46:17 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On 06 Dec 2015 16:01:54 -0400, Mike Spencer
wrote:


Ed Huntress writes:

A Steampunk washing machine! But you need a "Casey Jones Engineer"
certificate to run it. d8-)

There were wringer washers that ran on small gasoline engines. In the
70s, an old guy near me said he remembered (gesturing toward the road
he lived on) when they came up along there installing power poles,
hooking up houses, in the 1930s. Right behind them came a salesman
selling electric wringer washers.

Yeah, we had the gasoline-engined washers here, too. I remember seeing
some as a kid, in south New Jersey.
I've got the engine..

See: http://snyder.on.ca/pages/Old%20Engi...501_engine.htm

Very cool. Johnson Outboards made a motor for washing machines in the
1930s. And, if you have a copy of the 1952 edition of _The Boy
Mechanic_ (I do), they have a plan for a flat-bottomed "sea sled" boat
powered by one. It used a piece of rubber garden hose for a coupler to
the prop shaft.

OMC was Johnson. (also Evinrude) and this engine was sold under all 3
names at one point.
I've seen the plans. Saw one built with a twin cyl 2 stroke Maytag
years ago. There wereplans to build a midget car and a scooter using
the iron horse too - as well as plans for and a commercially built
Maytag Midget.

The "horse" was also used on quite a few early lawn mowers and some
generators and garden tractors.

They also built 2 stroke iron horse engines (used on early Lawn Boy
and Jacobsen mowers)

There's a lot of charm in those old engines. I have only one of them
left -- an O&R from the '60s (I think -- maybe the '50s).

It's interesting that we never feel that from electric motors. g The
motor that powers my bench disk sander is a 1-hp GE Century from
before WWII. It's as big as a microwave oven, and all of the inertia
makes for a great disk sander. But it has as much charm as a sump
pump.
That - sump pump with the vertical shaft and column removed - is what
powers my Dunlap jigsaw.
---

Gerry :-)}
London,Canada

Mine is from our first dishwasher. g You're the only other person I
know who has a Dunlop jigsaw. I still have to make a blade guide for
it. The old one plumb wore out, and I haven't used it for at least ten
years.
I made a blade guide/hold down foot from a die cast, floor mount door
stop.
---

Gerry :-)}
London,Canada

On Wed, 09 Dec 2015 21:21:49 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 07 Dec 2015 19:19:32 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Mon, 07 Dec 2015 19:14:22 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 21:03:18 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 19:26:08 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 18:29:20 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 16:43:08 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 15:46:17 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On 06 Dec 2015 16:01:54 -0400, Mike Spencer
wrote:


Ed Huntress writes:

A Steampunk washing machine! But you need a "Casey Jones Engineer"
certificate to run it. d8-)

There were wringer washers that ran on small gasoline engines. In the
70s, an old guy near me said he remembered (gesturing toward the road
he lived on) when they came up along there installing power poles,
hooking up houses, in the 1930s. Right behind them came a salesman
selling electric wringer washers.

Yeah, we had the gasoline-engined washers here, too. I remember seeing
some as a kid, in south New Jersey.
I've got the engine..

See: http://snyder.on.ca/pages/Old%20Engi...501_engine.htm

Very cool. Johnson Outboards made a motor for washing machines in the
1930s. And, if you have a copy of the 1952 edition of _The Boy
Mechanic_ (I do), they have a plan for a flat-bottomed "sea sled" boat
powered by one. It used a piece of rubber garden hose for a coupler to
the prop shaft.

OMC was Johnson. (also Evinrude) and this engine was sold under all 3
names at one point.
I've seen the plans. Saw one built with a twin cyl 2 stroke Maytag
years ago. There wereplans to build a midget car and a scooter using
the iron horse too - as well as plans for and a commercially built
Maytag Midget.

The "horse" was also used on quite a few early lawn mowers and some
generators and garden tractors.

They also built 2 stroke iron horse engines (used on early Lawn Boy
and Jacobsen mowers)

There's a lot of charm in those old engines. I have only one of them
left -- an O&R from the '60s (I think -- maybe the '50s).

It's interesting that we never feel that from electric motors. g The
motor that powers my bench disk sander is a 1-hp GE Century from
before WWII. It's as big as a microwave oven, and all of the inertia
makes for a great disk sander. But it has as much charm as a sump
pump.
That - sump pump with the vertical shaft and column removed - is what
powers my Dunlap jigsaw.
---

Gerry :-)}
London,Canada

Mine is from our first dishwasher. g You're the only other person I
know who has a Dunlop jigsaw. I still have to make a blade guide for
it. The old one plumb wore out, and I haven't used it for at least ten
years.
I made a blade guide/hold down foot from a die cast, floor mount door
stop.
---

Gerry :-)}
London,Canada

Now, THAT's using what ya' got. g Mine has a rubber bushing in the
overarm which, I think, used to hold the hold-down. My fingers are my
hold-down.

I got mine for free when an old guy I knew was cleaning out his
basement. It's cut a lot of wood.

--
Ed Huntress

On Wed, 09 Dec 2015 21:44:39 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Wed, 09 Dec 2015 21:21:49 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 07 Dec 2015 19:19:32 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Mon, 07 Dec 2015 19:14:22 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 21:03:18 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 19:26:08 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 18:29:20 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 16:43:08 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 15:46:17 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On 06 Dec 2015 16:01:54 -0400, Mike Spencer
wrote:


Ed Huntress writes:

A Steampunk washing machine! But you need a "Casey Jones Engineer"
certificate to run it. d8-)

There were wringer washers that ran on small gasoline engines. In the
70s, an old guy near me said he remembered (gesturing toward the road
he lived on) when they came up along there installing power poles,
hooking up houses, in the 1930s. Right behind them came a salesman
selling electric wringer washers.

Yeah, we had the gasoline-engined washers here, too. I remember seeing
some as a kid, in south New Jersey.
I've got the engine..

See: http://snyder.on.ca/pages/Old%20Engi...501_engine.htm

Very cool. Johnson Outboards made a motor for washing machines in the
1930s. And, if you have a copy of the 1952 edition of _The Boy
Mechanic_ (I do), they have a plan for a flat-bottomed "sea sled" boat
powered by one. It used a piece of rubber garden hose for a coupler to
the prop shaft.

OMC was Johnson. (also Evinrude) and this engine was sold under all 3
names at one point.
I've seen the plans. Saw one built with a twin cyl 2 stroke Maytag
years ago. There wereplans to build a midget car and a scooter using
the iron horse too - as well as plans for and a commercially built
Maytag Midget.

The "horse" was also used on quite a few early lawn mowers and some
generators and garden tractors.

They also built 2 stroke iron horse engines (used on early Lawn Boy
and Jacobsen mowers)

There's a lot of charm in those old engines. I have only one of them
left -- an O&R from the '60s (I think -- maybe the '50s).

It's interesting that we never feel that from electric motors. g The
motor that powers my bench disk sander is a 1-hp GE Century from
before WWII. It's as big as a microwave oven, and all of the inertia
makes for a great disk sander. But it has as much charm as a sump
pump.
That - sump pump with the vertical shaft and column removed - is what
powers my Dunlap jigsaw.
---

Gerry :-)}
London,Canada

Mine is from our first dishwasher. g You're the only other person I
know who has a Dunlop jigsaw. I still have to make a blade guide for
it. The old one plumb wore out, and I haven't used it for at least ten
years.
I made a blade guide/hold down foot from a die cast, floor mount door
stop.
---

Gerry :-)}
London,Canada

Now, THAT's using what ya' got. g Mine has a rubber bushing in the
overarm which, I think, used to hold the hold-down. My fingers are my
hold-down.

I got mine for free when an old guy I knew was cleaning out his
basement. It's cut a lot of wood.
I paid $i.25 for mine at a church men's club auction in 1970 it has
bee the first power tool for thee boys. I used jewelers blades quite
often to cut up to 1/8" steel. I did replace the bushings several
years ago.
---

Gerry :-)}
London,Canada

On Monday, December 7, 2015 at 12:18:18 PM UTC-5, Spehro Pefhany wrote:
On Sun, 6 Dec 2015 07:37:11 -0800 (PST), rangerssuck
wrote:

On Saturday, December 5, 2015 at 11:41:05 PM UTC-5, Jon Elson wrote:
Larry Jaques wrote:


So, are you going to tell me that this is a coincidence, or are these
thieving bastids designing this crap to fail quickly, then making an
equal amount (to the sales profit) by servicing their dead crap? I'm
strongly guessing the latter. sigh
No, I think the evil *******s is pretty appropriate! On the other hand, it
may have just been ONE crappy relay. I bought a bunch of parts to put arc
suppressors on all the relays, but never did install them. So, there are
still 11 relays of two different types perking along merrily for the last 3+
years! I was expecting the rest of the relays to start failing, but that
hasn't happened.

Jon

It may not have been a bad relay, but may have been that the one relay that went bad was being asked to do something out of spec.

Life of a mechanical relay is typically only 50-100,000 operations at
full rated load. Often even less for motor rated relays. That's
completely specified, sometimes there is a curve showing typical life
at lower than rated current, and you can easily test for that (at 2
seconds per operaton 100,000 operations takes a couple days, and you
can test for 1,000,000 in a few weeks) . At only 10 operations per
hour in a product, 24/7, a 100k operations relay will last less than 2
years.

Here's one that's rated for only 25,000 operations at rated current
*resistive* load.
https://www.omron.com/ecb/products/p...pdf/en-g5q.pdf

Now as an engineer working for an appliance manufacturer, do you
recommend a $5 relay (longer life or heavily derated) instead of a 50
cent one to make it last 10-20 years rather than 5 average, knowing
that will increase the retail price by $50+, or do you use the cheaper
part? Do you make the same decision for all the **other** parts that
have a definite life span, and if so will you still have a job- or
will your product be affordable enough to sell in the required
quantities. It's not really evil, just an economic decision.

It seems like there ought to be solid state replacements for common mechanical relays. I've never had a failure of an SSR, and you can get them with built in snubbers and zero-cross switching. One would think it would be cheaper to mass produce SSRs vs mechanicals.

I've seen lots of failures of solid state relays- they almost always
fail 'on' and they do so more-or-less randomly rather than mechanical
relays that have a definite life. They also produce a lot of heat
requiring heat sinks, are more expensive and often less reliable in
the bathtub part of the life curve. They have notoriously poor
tolerance for overcurrent and overvoltage. There has been little
improvement over the years in SSRs or mechanical relays, though both
have gotten cheaper in real terms.

It's possible to make SSRs more robust by using much larger overrated
semiconductors and special I^2T fuses, but there's those pesky
economic trade-offs again..

--sp

--
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
Amazon link for AoE 3rd Edition: http://tinyurl.com/ntrpwu8
Microchip link for 2015 Masters in Phoenix: http://tinyurl.com/l7g2k48

Ease up, dude. Jon did NOT mention mechanical failure. He DID mention that the contacts were burned badly.

Now, as for the fifty-cent vs five-dollar decision, by the time the washer hits a retail store, the price difference might be $1,000 vs $1,020. I KNOW that given the choice, I'd spend the extra twenty bucks. Larry J. mentioned that in the next post.

On Saturday, December 12, 2015 at 11:27:08 AM UTC-5, rangerssuck wrote:


Now, as for the fifty-cent vs five-dollar decision, by the time the washer hits a retail store, the price difference might be $1,000 vs $1,020. I KNOW
that given the choice, I'd spend the extra twenty bucks. Larry J. mentioned that in the next post.

That makes sense, but what if there are 6 such items . Then in the retail store the price difference might be $1000 vs $1120. Tougher choice.

Dan

On 2015-12-11, wrote:
On Wed, 09 Dec 2015 21:44:39 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:

[ ... jigsaw ... ]

Now, THAT's using what ya' got. g Mine has a rubber bushing in the
overarm which, I think, used to hold the hold-down. My fingers are my
hold-down.

I got mine for free when an old guy I knew was cleaning out his
basement. It's cut a lot of wood.
I paid $i.25 for mine at a church men's club auction in 1970 it has

O.K. A question. Did you mean $1.25 (what it sort of looks
like), or perhaps $8.25 or $9.25 (the two number keys closest to the 'i'
key? (Assuming a normal QWERTY keyboard.)

Enjoy
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 13 Dec 2015 02:34:23 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2015-12-11, wrote:
On Wed, 09 Dec 2015 21:44:39 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:

[ ... jigsaw ... ]

Now, THAT's using what ya' got. g Mine has a rubber bushing in the
overarm which, I think, used to hold the hold-down. My fingers are my
hold-down.

I got mine for free when an old guy I knew was cleaning out his
basement. It's cut a lot of wood.
I paid $i.25 for mine at a church men's club auction in 1970 it has

O.K. A question. Did you mean $1.25 (what it sort of looks
like), or perhaps $8.25 or $9.25 (the two number keys closest to the 'i'
key? (Assuming a normal QWERTY keyboard.)

Enjoy
DoN.
Sorry bout that, it was $1.25
---

Gerry :-)}
London,Canada

On Saturday, December 12, 2015 at 12:59:34 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, December 12, 2015 at 11:27:08 AM UTC-5, rangerssuck wrote:


Now, as for the fifty-cent vs five-dollar decision, by the time the washer hits a retail store, the price difference might be $1,000 vs $1,020. I KNOW
that given the choice, I'd spend the extra twenty bucks. Larry J. mentioned that in the next post.

That makes sense, but what if there are 6 such items . Then in the retail store the price difference might be $1000 vs $1120. Tougher choice.

Dan

True, but then again, I doubt major manufacturers are paying anywhere near five bucks for solid state relays in the sizes and quantities they would consume. But still, a 10% or 15% premium for the appliance that's going to last longer seems pretty reasonable.

A few years back, I bought 100 seagate barracuda drives. They started failing soon after installation, and at an alarming rate (I have since replaced every one of them), Several frustrating calls to Seagate got me no further than "they're under warranty, so return them and we'll ship you refurbs." I told them that I wasn't interested in a like-for-like replacement, as the new ones were just as likely to be bad as well. It's not the cost of the drive, it's the cost of travelling to the customer to replace it. let alone the lost faith the customer has in my product. The best they could suggest was buying enterprise level drives which had a longer warranty, but no promise that they were less likely to fail during the warranty period. I would gladly pay double, triple or even quadruple the price for had drives that are built to last. Seagate, Maxtor, Hitachi and Western Digital all told me that they don't have such a product because their marketing people didn't recognize a need for them, and "If it dies under warranty, we'll ship you a refurb." Feh.

"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
On Saturday, December 12, 2015 at 12:59:34 PM UTC-5,
wrote:
On Saturday, December 12, 2015 at 11:27:08 AM UTC-5, rangerssuck
wrote:


Now, as for the fifty-cent vs five-dollar decision, by the time
the washer hits a retail store, the price difference might be
$1,000 vs $1,020. I KNOW
that given the choice, I'd spend the extra twenty bucks. Larry J.
mentioned that in the next post.

That makes sense, but what if there are 6 such items . Then in the
retail store the price difference might be $1000 vs $1120. Tougher
choice.

Dan

True, but then again, I doubt major manufacturers are paying anywhere
near five bucks for solid state relays in the sizes and quantities
they would consume. But still, a 10% or 15% premium for the appliance
that's going to last longer seems pretty reasonable.

=============================

https://www.panasonic-electric-works...compliance.htm
"Relays with contacts that contain cadmium are still exempt from the
RoHS directive. However, due to its general corporate policy,
Panasonic no longer offers any relays whose contacts contain cadmium."

http://www.therelaycompany.com/materials.php
"This contradicts earlier advice and is based on the switching
qualities of AgCdO which cannot be matched by other materials. In some
cases performance might otherwise be less than half that offered by
this particular compound."

On Sunday, December 13, 2015 at 6:29:17 AM UTC-8, rangerssuck wrote:

A few years back, I bought 100 seagate barracuda drives. They started failing soon after installation, and at an alarming rate ...
Seagate, Maxtor, Hitachi and Western Digital all told me that they don't have such a product because their marketing people didn't recognize a need for them, and "If it dies under warranty, we'll ship you a refurb." Feh.

It could be worse. At least, their techs get the dead unit to analyze, and its flaws
might inform the next generation hardware design.

"whit3rd" wrote in message
...
On Sunday, December 13, 2015 at 6:29:17 AM UTC-8, rangerssuck wrote:

A few years back, I bought 100 seagate barracuda drives. They
started failing soon after installation, and at an alarming rate
...
Seagate, Maxtor, Hitachi and Western Digital all told me that they
don't have such a product because their marketing people didn't
recognize a need for them, and "If it dies under warranty, we'll
ship you a refurb." Feh.

It could be worse. At least, their techs get the dead unit to
analyze, and its flaws
might inform the next generation hardware design.

https://www.backblaze.com/blog/3tb-hard-drive-failure/

-jsw

On Sat, 05 Dec 2015 17:53:49 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:

wrote:

On Saturday, December 5, 2015 at 2:44:26 PM UTC-5, Jon Elson wrote in
rec.crafts.metalworking:
OK, we got one of those fancy energy-saving washing machines. After a
few
years, it started having trouble filling with water. I replaced the
solenoid valve assembly twice over about 6 months, and then started
invetigating deeper. The control board had a micro and about a dozen
electeromechanical relays on it. The one for the cold water valve
eventually developed contacts burned so bad that I was able to diagnose
it. I replaced it with a solid state relay, and all has been good for
several
years. I gues the cold water valve gets cycled the most often, so that
relay got burned up first. No problem yet with any of the others.

Yeah, obviously a current relay or just that kind of an interface or
something. Tell 'em about it, so they can buy you a whole new one.

You can't get anything if you stay silent. (I learned that the hard way)
The only thing I'll get out of them is a $250 service call, and another
control board with a short life. I assume everybody else that has this or a
related model ends up replacing that board every 2-3 years. Geez, I'll bet
that is the largest moneymaker they have in this business!

Jon

Neptune, right?

On Sunday, December 13, 2015 at 4:55:39 PM UTC-5, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"whit3rd" wrote in message
...
On Sunday, December 13, 2015 at 6:29:17 AM UTC-8, rangerssuck wrote:

A few years back, I bought 100 seagate barracuda drives. They
started failing soon after installation, and at an alarming rate
...
Seagate, Maxtor, Hitachi and Western Digital all told me that they
don't have such a product because their marketing people didn't
recognize a need for them, and "If it dies under warranty, we'll
ship you a refurb." Feh.

It could be worse. At least, their techs get the dead unit to
analyze, and its flaws
might inform the next generation hardware design.

https://www.backblaze.com/blog/3tb-hard-drive-failure/

-jsw

Oh yeah, that story reads very similar to mine, except that I am a one (sometimes two or three) man shop, and my customers (and their drives) are spread out over the NY metropolitan area. When one of these drives fails, and I have to go to the friggin' Empire State Building to replace it, the warranty coverage on a hundred dollar drive doesn't matter even a little bit.

I now only install systems in raidz3 configuration. That allows three drives to fail before data is lost, and I get alarms when the first drive fails. Further, I buy from multiple sources to help avoid having drives in a single unit from the same manufacturing run.

It aint perfect, it never will be, but it's as close as I can reasonably get.

"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
On Sunday, December 13, 2015 at 4:55:39 PM UTC-5, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"whit3rd" wrote in message
...
On Sunday, December 13, 2015 at 6:29:17 AM UTC-8, rangerssuck
wrote:

A few years back, I bought 100 seagate barracuda drives. They
started failing soon after installation, and at an alarming rate
...
Seagate, Maxtor, Hitachi and Western Digital all told me that they
don't have such a product because their marketing people didn't
recognize a need for them, and "If it dies under warranty, we'll
ship you a refurb." Feh.

It could be worse. At least, their techs get the dead unit to
analyze, and its flaws
might inform the next generation hardware design.

https://www.backblaze.com/blog/3tb-hard-drive-failure/

-jsw

Oh yeah, that story reads very similar to mine, except that I am a one
(sometimes two or three) man shop, and my customers (and their drives)
are spread out over the NY metropolitan area. When one of these drives
fails, and I have to go to the friggin' Empire State Building to
replace it, the warranty coverage on a hundred dollar drive doesn't
matter even a little bit.

I now only install systems in raidz3 configuration. That allows three
drives to fail before data is lost, and I get alarms when the first
drive fails. Further, I buy from multiple sources to help avoid having
drives in a single unit from the same manufacturing run.

It aint perfect, it never will be, but it's as close as I can
reasonably get.

=============

They say the 4, 5, 6 and 8GB Seagates are looking good so far:
http://www.myce.com/news/backblaze-r...q3-2015-77560/
"Seagate has gotten some bad press in the past from these reports, but
the final graph shown at the BackBlaze site tells us that as they
replace the older drives and put in newer, higher capacity ones, the
Seagate performance has risen above Western Digital slightly.
Backblaze is particularly pleased with their 6TB Seagate drives."

-jsw