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Consumer electronics "war stories"
On Friday, December 4, 2015 at 1:53:47 PM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Chuck" wrote in in sci.electronics.repair in message ... The receiver tech was flummoxed by one of those large 1970s Pioneer receivers. It had a problem none of us had seen before and we were a high volume audio chain. There was slight audio distortion on both channels, only on FM. We all worked commission only so I was the only one to volunteer to help him out. To cut to the chase, the receiver had an over designed mute circuit that was 3 or 4 stages deep, At the deepest stage there was one of the Sanyo electrolytics that became a common failure item many years later which was slightly leaky. Many electronic devices will have a common problem. It may take a while to find it,but once found, the first thing to look for. Most of them have microchips (that you can't open up and repair). And they have software and wireless or hard wired connections to larger facilities elsewhere where techs can come in and review the software. Many problems seem to be caused from malware or spyware (maybe some even from the government or other places) that intentionally interferes with the intended software provided by the company on the package's label. I worked for a large company and we had a new building built and equipment installed. Right now, I'm not even working. I'm just sitting around looking at space cartoons and video games. |
Consumer electronics "war stories"
OK, we got one of those fancy energy-saving washing machines. After a few
years, it started having trouble filling with water. I replaced the solenoid valve assembly twice over about 6 months, and then started invetigating deeper. The control board had a micro and about a dozen electeromechanical relays on it. The one for the cold water valve eventually developed contacts burned so bad that I was able to diagnose it. I replaced it with a solid state relay, and all has been good for several years. I gues the cold water valve gets cycled the most often, so that relay got burned up first. No problem yet with any of the others. Jon |
Consumer electronics "war stories"
On Saturday, December 5, 2015 at 2:44:26 PM UTC-5, Jon Elson wrote in rec.crafts.metalworking:
OK, we got one of those fancy energy-saving washing machines. After a few years, it started having trouble filling with water. I replaced the solenoid valve assembly twice over about 6 months, and then started invetigating deeper. The control board had a micro and about a dozen electeromechanical relays on it. The one for the cold water valve eventually developed contacts burned so bad that I was able to diagnose it. I replaced it with a solid state relay, and all has been good for several years. I gues the cold water valve gets cycled the most often, so that relay got burned up first. No problem yet with any of the others. Yeah, obviously a current relay or just that kind of an interface or something. Tell 'em about it, so they can buy you a whole new one. You can't get anything if you stay silent. (I learned that the hard way) |
Consumer electronics "war stories"
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Consumer electronics "war stories"
On Sat, 05 Dec 2015 17:53:49 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote: wrote: On Saturday, December 5, 2015 at 2:44:26 PM UTC-5, Jon Elson wrote in rec.crafts.metalworking: OK, we got one of those fancy energy-saving washing machines. After a few years, it started having trouble filling with water. I replaced the solenoid valve assembly twice over about 6 months, and then started invetigating deeper. The control board had a micro and about a dozen electeromechanical relays on it. The one for the cold water valve eventually developed contacts burned so bad that I was able to diagnose it. I replaced it with a solid state relay, and all has been good for several years. I gues the cold water valve gets cycled the most often, so that relay got burned up first. No problem yet with any of the others. Yeah, obviously a current relay or just that kind of an interface or something. Tell 'em about it, so they can buy you a whole new one. You can't get anything if you stay silent. (I learned that the hard way) The only thing I'll get out of them is a $250 service call, and another control board with a short life. I assume everybody else that has this or a related model ends up replacing that board every 2-3 years. Geez, I'll bet that is the largest moneymaker they have in this business! So, are you going to tell me that this is a coincidence, or are these thieving bastids designing this crap to fail quickly, then making an equal amount (to the sales profit) by servicing their dead crap? I'm strongly guessing the latter. sigh Congrats on the troubleshooting. -- Courage and perseverance have a magical talisman, before which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into air. -- John Quincy Adams |
Consumer electronics "war stories"
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message ... On Sat, 05 Dec 2015 17:53:49 -0600, Jon Elson wrote: wrote: On Saturday, December 5, 2015 at 2:44:26 PM UTC-5, Jon Elson wrote in rec.crafts.metalworking: OK, we got one of those fancy energy-saving washing machines. After a few years, it started having trouble filling with water. I replaced the solenoid valve assembly twice over about 6 months, and then started invetigating deeper. The control board had a micro and about a dozen electeromechanical relays on it. The one for the cold water valve eventually developed contacts burned so bad that I was able to diagnose it. I replaced it with a solid state relay, and all has been good for several years. I gues the cold water valve gets cycled the most often, so that relay got burned up first. No problem yet with any of the others. Yeah, obviously a current relay or just that kind of an interface or something. Tell 'em about it, so they can buy you a whole new one. You can't get anything if you stay silent. (I learned that the hard way) The only thing I'll get out of them is a $250 service call, and another control board with a short life. I assume everybody else that has this or a related model ends up replacing that board every 2-3 years. Geez, I'll bet that is the largest moneymaker they have in this business! So, are you going to tell me that this is a coincidence, or are these thieving bastids designing this crap to fail quickly, then making an equal amount (to the sales profit) by servicing their dead crap? I'm strongly guessing the latter. sigh Congrats on the troubleshooting. The future is in DRM, no unauthorized repairs or aftermarket consumables. With wifi connected everything you will simply rent or lease all your appliances, easy monthly payments, no need to spend big bucks appliances. Lets not forget the monthly use tax that will be automaticly deducted from your bank account. Fridge, stove broken? no problem the manufacture will simply remove the broken one and replace it with a factory refurbished one of the same model. Missed a payment on your wifi connected car? no problem they will simply disable it when your in a high crime area. Best Regards Tom. |
Consumer electronics "war stories"
Larry Jaques wrote:
So, are you going to tell me that this is a coincidence, or are these thieving bastids designing this crap to fail quickly, then making an equal amount (to the sales profit) by servicing their dead crap? I'm strongly guessing the latter. sigh No, I think the evil *******s is pretty appropriate! On the other hand, it may have just been ONE crappy relay. I bought a bunch of parts to put arc suppressors on all the relays, but never did install them. So, there are still 11 relays of two different types perking along merrily for the last 3+ years! I was expecting the rest of the relays to start failing, but that hasn't happened. Jon |
Consumer electronics "war stories"
On Saturday, December 5, 2015 at 11:41:05 PM UTC-5, Jon Elson wrote:
Larry Jaques wrote: So, are you going to tell me that this is a coincidence, or are these thieving bastids designing this crap to fail quickly, then making an equal amount (to the sales profit) by servicing their dead crap? I'm strongly guessing the latter. sigh No, I think the evil *******s is pretty appropriate! On the other hand, it may have just been ONE crappy relay. I bought a bunch of parts to put arc suppressors on all the relays, but never did install them. So, there are still 11 relays of two different types perking along merrily for the last 3+ years! I was expecting the rest of the relays to start failing, but that hasn't happened. Jon It may not have been a bad relay, but may have been that the one relay that went bad was being asked to do something out of spec. It seems like there ought to be solid state replacements for common mechanical relays. I've never had a failure of an SSR, and you can get them with built in snubbers and zero-cross switching. One would think it would be cheaper to mass produce SSRs vs mechanicals. |
Consumer electronics "war stories"
On Sat, 05 Dec 2015 22:40:59 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote: Larry Jaques wrote: So, are you going to tell me that this is a coincidence, or are these thieving bastids designing this crap to fail quickly, then making an equal amount (to the sales profit) by servicing their dead crap? I'm strongly guessing the latter. sigh No, I think the evil *******s is pretty appropriate! On the other hand, it may have just been ONE crappy relay. I bought a bunch of parts to put arc suppressors on all the relays, but never did install them. So, there are still 11 relays of two different types perking along merrily for the last 3+ years! I was expecting the rest of the relays to start failing, but that hasn't happened. I might expect one relay for each water temp, one for motor start, and maybe one for switching into spin mode, but 12? What the hell does your washer DO, besides wash clothes? Iron, fold, and stack, too? I think you're right, the cold water relay/solenoid is the most heavily accessed one on the washer. -- Courage and perseverance have a magical talisman, before which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into air. -- John Quincy Adams |
Consumer electronics "war stories"
rangerssuck wrote:
It may not have been a bad relay, but may have been that the one relay that went bad was being asked to do something out of spec. There are, I think, six identical relays that drive six identical solenoid valves. I can imagine the cold water valve gets used multiple times per wash cycle (it does a bunch of tricky stuff to weigh the load by partially filling the basket and then swiring it with the motor to measure inerta) so that valve probably is cycled 6 - 10 times per wash load. But, if all the valves and relays were identical, I would expect that additional failures would have started showing up by now. There are some bigger relays that operate heavier loads, no problem with those so far. It seems like there ought to be solid state replacements for common mechanical relays. I've never had a failure of an SSR, and you can get them with built in snubbers and zero-cross switching. One would think it would be cheaper to mass produce SSRs vs mechanicals. Yes, you WOULD think. But, I'll guess that some factory that is cranking these things out can make them for a couple cents each. If properly selected, about the only thing that will kill an SSR is lightning or a shorted load. Jon |
Consumer electronics "war stories"
Larry Jaques wrote:
I might expect one relay for each water temp, one for motor start, and maybe one for switching into spin mode, but 12? What the hell does your washer DO, besides wash clothes? Iron, fold, and stack, too? No, no no! This thing is a computer video game with a washing machine grafted on the side for grins! OK, yes, there is cold and hot water main inlet. Then, the incoming water can go straight into the tub, or it can be diverted into the softener tank, the detergent tank or the bleach tank, to deliver some of that product into the tub. Then, when the recirculate pump is on, it has valves to select where that water goes. It has two pumps (recirculate and drain) and a VFD to run the drum motor. There is a spline coupling between the motor and the basket. When the tub is filled to a certain level, an air chamber floats the basket up to disconnect the spin coupling, and then the motor is rocked back and forth for the agitate function. When draining, the basket lands on the coupling, and then the motor tweaks back and forth gently until the basket seats the coupling onto the shaft before starting the spin cycle, so as not to tear up the coupling. The pump motors look kind of like giant photograph motors, so apparently they are 120 V shaded pole motors, but have magnets in the rotor. The recirculate motor starts smoothly, but the larger drain motor rattles and vibrates for a while until the rotor falls into sync. Quite a strange way to do things. So, I think two of the big relays are for the pump motors. Another big relay must be for the heater, but I think our actual machine does NOT have a heater installed in the tub. I was able to download the service manual for the thing, by pressing certain buttons, you can activate multiple diagnostic and test procedures that exercise and partially self-test verious parts of the machine. Sheesh, what a bunch of complexity, to do what used to be done with some smooth rocks down at the riverside! Jon |
Consumer electronics "war stories"
On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 12:27:54 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote: Larry Jaques wrote: I might expect one relay for each water temp, one for motor start, and maybe one for switching into spin mode, but 12? What the hell does your washer DO, besides wash clothes? Iron, fold, and stack, too? No, no no! This thing is a computer video game with a washing machine grafted on the side for grins! OK, yes, there is cold and hot water main inlet. Then, the incoming water can go straight into the tub, or it can be diverted into the softener tank, the detergent tank or the bleach tank, to deliver some of that product into the tub. Then, when the recirculate pump is on, it has valves to select where that water goes. It has two pumps (recirculate and drain) and a VFD to run the drum motor. There is a spline coupling between the motor and the basket. When the tub is filled to a certain level, an air chamber floats the basket up to disconnect the spin coupling, and then the motor is rocked back and forth for the agitate function. When draining, the basket lands on the coupling, and then the motor tweaks back and forth gently until the basket seats the coupling onto the shaft before starting the spin cycle, so as not to tear up the coupling. The pump motors look kind of like giant photograph motors, so apparently they are 120 V shaded pole motors, but have magnets in the rotor. The recirculate motor starts smoothly, but the larger drain motor rattles and vibrates for a while until the rotor falls into sync. Quite a strange way to do things. So, I think two of the big relays are for the pump motors. Another big relay must be for the heater, but I think our actual machine does NOT have a heater installed in the tub. I was able to download the service manual for the thing, by pressing certain buttons, you can activate multiple diagnostic and test procedures that exercise and partially self-test verious parts of the machine. Sheesh, what a bunch of complexity, to do what used to be done with some smooth rocks down at the riverside! Jon Does it have a speaker? "I'm sorry, Dave, but I'm afraid I won't wash that..." -- Ed Huntress |
Consumer electronics "war stories"
On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 12:27:54 -0600
Jon Elson wrote: snip Sheesh, what a bunch of complexity, to do what used to be done with some smooth rocks down at the riverside! Still using the old Speed Queen Wringer Washer the parents bought in the late 60's... I have two spigots with a Y-hose to fill it. Put clothes in the washer, add some detergent to your liking. Turn on the hot water, add some cold and use your hand to feel if it is the temp you want or not. When the level gets to within 2-3 inches of the top you turn the hose over to the two rinse tubs to fill. Turn the machine on, set the cover over the top and set a separate manual timer for 8-10 minutes. While it is washing keep you eye on filling the rinse tubs to within 4-5 inches of the top. When full shut the spigots off. When the timer goes off, shut the agitator off, take the lid off and start running clothes through the ringer into the first rinse tub. When you have all the clothes in the first rinse tub, add another load to the washer. Set the timer, turn on the agitator. While the next load is washing continue sloshing clothes around in the first rinse tub and then run them through the ringer into the second rinse tub. Slosh clothes around again in the second tub and then run through ringer again. For the last time I usually run them three times through the wringer. By this time the timer has usually went off and you wring the next load of clothes into the first rinse tub... Now you can put the wrung clothes in the dryer or hang them outside weather permitting. Drop the hose down from the side of the washer and run the wash water into the sump drain. Do the same with both the rinse tubs. Take the agitator out of the washer and swab out the tank, wipe down the agitator and wringer. Swab out the rinse tubs. Let them sit awhile to finish drying and then cover back up, push aside to where you keep them and wait till the next wash day. Takes about 40 gallons of water and 1/2 cup of detergent to do my whole wash for two weeks and no relays to go bad ;-) -- Leon Fisk Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b Remove no.spam for email |
Consumer electronics "war stories"
On Sun, 6 Dec 2015 15:01:38 -0400, Leon Fisk
wrote: On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 12:27:54 -0600 Jon Elson wrote: snip Sheesh, what a bunch of complexity, to do what used to be done with some smooth rocks down at the riverside! Still using the old Speed Queen Wringer Washer the parents bought in the late 60's... I have two spigots with a Y-hose to fill it. Put clothes in the washer, add some detergent to your liking. Turn on the hot water, add some cold and use your hand to feel if it is the temp you want or not. When the level gets to within 2-3 inches of the top you turn the hose over to the two rinse tubs to fill. Turn the machine on, set the cover over the top and set a separate manual timer for 8-10 minutes. While it is washing keep you eye on filling the rinse tubs to within 4-5 inches of the top. When full shut the spigots off. When the timer goes off, shut the agitator off, take the lid off and start running clothes through the ringer into the first rinse tub. When you have all the clothes in the first rinse tub, add another load to the washer. Set the timer, turn on the agitator. While the next load is washing continue sloshing clothes around in the first rinse tub and then run them through the ringer into the second rinse tub. Slosh clothes around again in the second tub and then run through ringer again. For the last time I usually run them three times through the wringer. By this time the timer has usually went off and you wring the next load of clothes into the first rinse tub... Now you can put the wrung clothes in the dryer or hang them outside weather permitting. Drop the hose down from the side of the washer and run the wash water into the sump drain. Do the same with both the rinse tubs. Take the agitator out of the washer and swab out the tank, wipe down the agitator and wringer. Swab out the rinse tubs. Let them sit awhile to finish drying and then cover back up, push aside to where you keep them and wait till the next wash day. Takes about 40 gallons of water and 1/2 cup of detergent to do my whole wash for two weeks and no relays to go bad ;-) A Steampunk washing machine! But you need a "Casey Jones Engineer" certificate to run it. d8-) -- Ed Huntress |
Consumer electronics "war stories"
On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 12:27:54 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote: Larry Jaques wrote: I might expect one relay for each water temp, one for motor start, and maybe one for switching into spin mode, but 12? What the hell does your washer DO, besides wash clothes? Iron, fold, and stack, too? No, no no! This thing is a computer video game with a washing machine grafted on the side for grins! OK, yes, there is cold and hot water main inlet. Then, the incoming water can go straight into the tub, or it can be diverted into the softener tank, the detergent tank or the bleach tank, to deliver some of that product into the tub. Then, when the recirculate pump is on, it has valves to select where that water goes. It has two pumps (recirculate and drain) and a VFD to run the drum motor. There is a spline coupling between the motor and the basket. When the tub is filled to a certain level, an air chamber floats the basket up to disconnect the spin coupling, and then the motor is rocked back and forth for the agitate function. When draining, the basket lands on the coupling, and then the motor tweaks back and forth gently until the basket seats the coupling onto the shaft before starting the spin cycle, so as not to tear up the coupling. The pump motors look kind of like giant photograph motors, so apparently they are 120 V shaded pole motors, but have magnets in the rotor. The recirculate motor starts smoothly, but the larger drain motor rattles and vibrates for a while until the rotor falls into sync. Quite a strange way to do things. So, I think two of the big relays are for the pump motors. Another big relay must be for the heater, but I think our actual machine does NOT have a heater installed in the tub. I was able to download the service manual for the thing, by pressing certain buttons, you can activate multiple diagnostic and test procedures that exercise and partially self-test verious parts of the machine. Sheesh, what a bunch of complexity, to do what used to be done with some smooth rocks down at the riverside! Praps y'all should pursue these 2 less technical devices? http://tinyurl.com/ngmuzox and http://tinyurl.com/q57xduk They sure beat rocks. (Well, a bit.) -- Courage and perseverance have a magical talisman, before which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into air. -- John Quincy Adams |
Consumer electronics "war stories"
Ed Huntress writes: A Steampunk washing machine! But you need a "Casey Jones Engineer" certificate to run it. d8-) There were wringer washers that ran on small gasoline engines. In the 70s, an old guy near me said he remembered (gesturing toward the road he lived on) when they came up along there installing power poles, hooking up houses, in the 1930s. Right behind them came a salesman selling electric wringer washers. -- Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada |
Consumer electronics "war stories"
On 06 Dec 2015 16:01:54 -0400, Mike Spencer
wrote: Ed Huntress writes: A Steampunk washing machine! But you need a "Casey Jones Engineer" certificate to run it. d8-) There were wringer washers that ran on small gasoline engines. In the 70s, an old guy near me said he remembered (gesturing toward the road he lived on) when they came up along there installing power poles, hooking up houses, in the 1930s. Right behind them came a salesman selling electric wringer washers. Yeah, we had the gasoline-engined washers here, too. I remember seeing some as a kid, in south New Jersey. -- Ed Huntress |
Consumer electronics "war stories"
On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 11:51:17 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote: On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 12:27:54 -0600, Jon Elson wrote: Larry Jaques wrote: I might expect one relay for each water temp, one for motor start, and maybe one for switching into spin mode, but 12? What the hell does your washer DO, besides wash clothes? Iron, fold, and stack, too? No, no no! This thing is a computer video game with a washing machine grafted on the side for grins! OK, yes, there is cold and hot water main inlet. Then, the incoming water can go straight into the tub, or it can be diverted into the softener tank, the detergent tank or the bleach tank, to deliver some of that product into the tub. Then, when the recirculate pump is on, it has valves to select where that water goes. It has two pumps (recirculate and drain) and a VFD to run the drum motor. There is a spline coupling between the motor and the basket. When the tub is filled to a certain level, an air chamber floats the basket up to disconnect the spin coupling, and then the motor is rocked back and forth for the agitate function. When draining, the basket lands on the coupling, and then the motor tweaks back and forth gently until the basket seats the coupling onto the shaft before starting the spin cycle, so as not to tear up the coupling. The pump motors look kind of like giant photograph motors, so apparently they are 120 V shaded pole motors, but have magnets in the rotor. The recirculate motor starts smoothly, but the larger drain motor rattles and vibrates for a while until the rotor falls into sync. Quite a strange way to do things. So, I think two of the big relays are for the pump motors. Another big relay must be for the heater, but I think our actual machine does NOT have a heater installed in the tub. I was able to download the service manual for the thing, by pressing certain buttons, you can activate multiple diagnostic and test procedures that exercise and partially self-test verious parts of the machine. Sheesh, what a bunch of complexity, to do what used to be done with some smooth rocks down at the riverside! Praps y'all should pursue these 2 less technical devices? http://tinyurl.com/ngmuzox and http://tinyurl.com/q57xduk They sure beat rocks. (Well, a bit.) I have a concrete laundry tub like that in my house (two sinks instead of three) and one side has a built-in washboard made of sheet zinc. The house was built in 1924 and the sink probably was installed at the time. I always liked the solution that John Steinbeck described in _Travels with Charlie_. He had a custom-made pickup camper that he drove across the country. In the shower stall he suspended a small plastic garbage can on bungee cords. He'd fill it with clothes, soap and water. He said clothes were clean in about 50 miles of driving. -- Ed Huntress |
Consumer electronics "war stories"
Ed Huntress wrote:
Does it have a speaker? "I'm sorry, Dave, but I'm afraid I won't wash that..." It does have a piezo beeper that responds to button presses, beeps multiple times for "sorry, you can't press that button in this mode" and signals wash done. Jon |
Consumer electronics "war stories"
Larry Jaques wrote:
Praps y'all should pursue these 2 less technical devices? http://tinyurl.com/ngmuzox and http://tinyurl.com/q57xduk Well, but it really works well, gets clothes clean on about 10 gallons of water per load. It also spins the clothes so dry (at 1200 RPM) that you could almost wear them without using the dryer. We actually were able to see the drop in our water bill when we got the thing. I did have to replace the main bearings and seals on it, and waited too long, so detergenty water got into the motor and burned up some windings. Fortunately, it didn't fry the VFD. Then, last month I had to extract a US Quarter (coin) out of the drain pump. Otherwise, it just works, and has done many thousands of wash loads. Some of the kids have moved out, but when we got it we had a family of eight, so the washer was busy from 9 AM to 9 PM most nights. Jon |
Consumer electronics "war stories"
On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 15:46:17 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote: On 06 Dec 2015 16:01:54 -0400, Mike Spencer wrote: Ed Huntress writes: A Steampunk washing machine! But you need a "Casey Jones Engineer" certificate to run it. d8-) There were wringer washers that ran on small gasoline engines. In the 70s, an old guy near me said he remembered (gesturing toward the road he lived on) when they came up along there installing power poles, hooking up houses, in the 1930s. Right behind them came a salesman selling electric wringer washers. Yeah, we had the gasoline-engined washers here, too. I remember seeing some as a kid, in south New Jersey. I've got the engine.. See: http://snyder.on.ca/pages/Old%20Engi...501_engine.htm |
Consumer electronics "war stories"
On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 12:27:54 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote: Larry Jaques wrote: I might expect one relay for each water temp, one for motor start, and maybe one for switching into spin mode, but 12? What the hell does your washer DO, besides wash clothes? Iron, fold, and stack, too? No, no no! This thing is a computer video game with a washing machine grafted on the side for grins! OK, yes, there is cold and hot water main inlet. Then, the incoming water can go straight into the tub, or it can be diverted into the softener tank, the detergent tank or the bleach tank, to deliver some of that product into the tub. Then, when the recirculate pump is on, it has valves to select where that water goes. It has two pumps (recirculate and drain) and a VFD to run the drum motor. There is a spline coupling between the motor and the basket. When the tub is filled to a certain level, an air chamber floats the basket up to disconnect the spin coupling, and then the motor is rocked back and forth for the agitate function. When draining, the basket lands on the coupling, and then the motor tweaks back and forth gently until the basket seats the coupling onto the shaft before starting the spin cycle, so as not to tear up the coupling. The pump motors look kind of like giant photograph motors, so apparently they are 120 V shaded pole motors, but have magnets in the rotor. The recirculate motor starts smoothly, but the larger drain motor rattles and vibrates for a while until the rotor falls into sync. Quite a strange way to do things. So, I think two of the big relays are for the pump motors. Another big relay must be for the heater, but I think our actual machine does NOT have a heater installed in the tub. I was able to download the service manual for the thing, by pressing certain buttons, you can activate multiple diagnostic and test procedures that exercise and partially self-test verious parts of the machine. Sheesh, what a bunch of complexity, to do what used to be done with some smooth rocks down at the riverside! Jon We've got one of those damned things. Be sure and use the "washing machine cleaner" every month or so, and use the extra rinse button. Otherwise, soap scum builds up around the shaft seal, it fails, then the drum bearing fails, and the cheap (NOT) fix is haul it to the shop and have them replace the damned drum plus bearing assembly. It ain't cheap. My brother fixed his own, after the repairman he called said he should just replace the whole thing. Didn't even know (or want to admit) how to run the diagnostics. Chuck figured that out after he ran the guy off, and repaired accordingly. Wife likes it, I hate the damned thing. Pete Keillor |
Consumer electronics "war stories"
On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 18:29:20 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote: On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 16:43:08 -0500, wrote: On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 15:46:17 -0500, Ed Huntress wrote: On 06 Dec 2015 16:01:54 -0400, Mike Spencer wrote: Ed Huntress writes: A Steampunk washing machine! But you need a "Casey Jones Engineer" certificate to run it. d8-) There were wringer washers that ran on small gasoline engines. In the 70s, an old guy near me said he remembered (gesturing toward the road he lived on) when they came up along there installing power poles, hooking up houses, in the 1930s. Right behind them came a salesman selling electric wringer washers. Yeah, we had the gasoline-engined washers here, too. I remember seeing some as a kid, in south New Jersey. I've got the engine.. See: http://snyder.on.ca/pages/Old%20Engi...501_engine.htm Very cool. Johnson Outboards made a motor for washing machines in the 1930s. And, if you have a copy of the 1952 edition of _The Boy Mechanic_ (I do), they have a plan for a flat-bottomed "sea sled" boat powered by one. It used a piece of rubber garden hose for a coupler to the prop shaft. OMC was Johnson. (also Evinrude) and this engine was sold under all 3 names at one point. I've seen the plans. Saw one built with a twin cyl 2 stroke Maytag years ago. There wereplans to build a midget car and a scooter using the iron horse too - as well as plans for and a commercially built Maytag Midget. The "horse" was also used on quite a few early lawn mowers and some generators and garden tractors. They also built 2 stroke iron horse engines (used on early Lawn Boy and Jacobsen mowers) |
Consumer electronics "war stories"
On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 19:26:08 -0500, wrote:
On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 18:29:20 -0500, Ed Huntress wrote: On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 16:43:08 -0500, wrote: On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 15:46:17 -0500, Ed Huntress wrote: On 06 Dec 2015 16:01:54 -0400, Mike Spencer wrote: Ed Huntress writes: A Steampunk washing machine! But you need a "Casey Jones Engineer" certificate to run it. d8-) There were wringer washers that ran on small gasoline engines. In the 70s, an old guy near me said he remembered (gesturing toward the road he lived on) when they came up along there installing power poles, hooking up houses, in the 1930s. Right behind them came a salesman selling electric wringer washers. Yeah, we had the gasoline-engined washers here, too. I remember seeing some as a kid, in south New Jersey. I've got the engine.. See: http://snyder.on.ca/pages/Old%20Engi...501_engine.htm Very cool. Johnson Outboards made a motor for washing machines in the 1930s. And, if you have a copy of the 1952 edition of _The Boy Mechanic_ (I do), they have a plan for a flat-bottomed "sea sled" boat powered by one. It used a piece of rubber garden hose for a coupler to the prop shaft. OMC was Johnson. (also Evinrude) and this engine was sold under all 3 names at one point. I've seen the plans. Saw one built with a twin cyl 2 stroke Maytag years ago. There wereplans to build a midget car and a scooter using the iron horse too - as well as plans for and a commercially built Maytag Midget. The "horse" was also used on quite a few early lawn mowers and some generators and garden tractors. They also built 2 stroke iron horse engines (used on early Lawn Boy and Jacobsen mowers) There's a lot of charm in those old engines. I have only one of them left -- an O&R from the '60s (I think -- maybe the '50s). It's interesting that we never feel that from electric motors. g The motor that powers my bench disk sander is a 1-hp GE Century from before WWII. It's as big as a microwave oven, and all of the inertia makes for a great disk sander. But it has as much charm as a sump pump. -- Ed Huntress |
Consumer electronics "war stories"
On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 21:03:18 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote: On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 19:26:08 -0500, wrote: On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 18:29:20 -0500, Ed Huntress wrote: On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 16:43:08 -0500, wrote: On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 15:46:17 -0500, Ed Huntress wrote: On 06 Dec 2015 16:01:54 -0400, Mike Spencer wrote: Ed Huntress writes: A Steampunk washing machine! But you need a "Casey Jones Engineer" certificate to run it. d8-) There were wringer washers that ran on small gasoline engines. In the 70s, an old guy near me said he remembered (gesturing toward the road he lived on) when they came up along there installing power poles, hooking up houses, in the 1930s. Right behind them came a salesman selling electric wringer washers. Yeah, we had the gasoline-engined washers here, too. I remember seeing some as a kid, in south New Jersey. I've got the engine.. See: http://snyder.on.ca/pages/Old%20Engi...501_engine.htm Very cool. Johnson Outboards made a motor for washing machines in the 1930s. And, if you have a copy of the 1952 edition of _The Boy Mechanic_ (I do), they have a plan for a flat-bottomed "sea sled" boat powered by one. It used a piece of rubber garden hose for a coupler to the prop shaft. OMC was Johnson. (also Evinrude) and this engine was sold under all 3 names at one point. I've seen the plans. Saw one built with a twin cyl 2 stroke Maytag years ago. There wereplans to build a midget car and a scooter using the iron horse too - as well as plans for and a commercially built Maytag Midget. The "horse" was also used on quite a few early lawn mowers and some generators and garden tractors. They also built 2 stroke iron horse engines (used on early Lawn Boy and Jacobsen mowers) There's a lot of charm in those old engines. I have only one of them left -- an O&R from the '60s (I think -- maybe the '50s). It's interesting that we never feel that from electric motors. g The motor that powers my bench disk sander is a 1-hp GE Century from before WWII. It's as big as a microwave oven, and all of the inertia makes for a great disk sander. But it has as much charm as a sump pump. I've got an old universal (brushed DC- shunt wound) motor that weighs about 75 lbs - likely about 1/2 HP - built back around the first world war. A bit more charm to it than a split phase Induction motor. But not a lot. |
Consumer electronics "war stories"
On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 15:24:31 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote: Larry Jaques wrote: Praps y'all should pursue these 2 less technical devices? http://tinyurl.com/ngmuzox and http://tinyurl.com/q57xduk Well, but it really works well, gets clothes clean on about 10 gallons of water per load. It also spins the clothes so dry (at 1200 RPM) that you could almost wear them without using the dryer. We actually were able to see the drop in our water bill when we got the thing. I'd love to have a real spin dry cycle like that. sigh I did have to replace the main bearings and seals on it, and waited too long, so detergenty water got into the motor and burned up some windings. Fortunately, it didn't fry the VFD. Oops. Then, last month I had to extract a US Quarter (coin) out of the drain pump. Durned sneaky Murricans getting into the pipes, eh? Otherwise, it just works, and has done many thousands of wash loads. Some of the kids have moved out, but when we got it we had a family of eight, so the washer was busy from 9 AM to 9 PM most nights. EIGHT? Wow. -- Courage and perseverance have a magical talisman, before which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into air. -- John Quincy Adams |
Consumer electronics "war stories"
Pete Keillor wrote:
We've got one of those damned things. Be sure and use the "washing machine cleaner" every month or so, and use the extra rinse button. Otherwise, soap scum builds up around the shaft seal, it fails, then the drum bearing fails, and the cheap (NOT) fix is haul it to the shop and have them replace the damned drum plus bearing assembly. It ain't cheap. Yeah, I KNEW the seals were going and the bearings were shot, but I just DIDN'T want to tear into the thing. Fear of the unknown. Now that I've done it once, I know it really isn't that big of a deal, and I made up the pieces for the extractor/installer tool that they want to rent you for $100 a day. It takes a couple hours and costs about $70 for the kit. So, the next time it starts sounding like a 747 taking off when doing the spin cycle, i will NOT delay ordering the rebuild kit. Jon |
Consumer electronics "war stories"
On Sun, 6 Dec 2015 07:37:11 -0800 (PST), rangerssuck
wrote: On Saturday, December 5, 2015 at 11:41:05 PM UTC-5, Jon Elson wrote: Larry Jaques wrote: So, are you going to tell me that this is a coincidence, or are these thieving bastids designing this crap to fail quickly, then making an equal amount (to the sales profit) by servicing their dead crap? I'm strongly guessing the latter. sigh No, I think the evil *******s is pretty appropriate! On the other hand, it may have just been ONE crappy relay. I bought a bunch of parts to put arc suppressors on all the relays, but never did install them. So, there are still 11 relays of two different types perking along merrily for the last 3+ years! I was expecting the rest of the relays to start failing, but that hasn't happened. Jon It may not have been a bad relay, but may have been that the one relay that went bad was being asked to do something out of spec. Life of a mechanical relay is typically only 50-100,000 operations at full rated load. Often even less for motor rated relays. That's completely specified, sometimes there is a curve showing typical life at lower than rated current, and you can easily test for that (at 2 seconds per operaton 100,000 operations takes a couple days, and you can test for 1,000,000 in a few weeks) . At only 10 operations per hour in a product, 24/7, a 100k operations relay will last less than 2 years. Here's one that's rated for only 25,000 operations at rated current *resistive* load. https://www.omron.com/ecb/products/p...pdf/en-g5q.pdf Now as an engineer working for an appliance manufacturer, do you recommend a $5 relay (longer life or heavily derated) instead of a 50 cent one to make it last 10-20 years rather than 5 average, knowing that will increase the retail price by $50+, or do you use the cheaper part? Do you make the same decision for all the **other** parts that have a definite life span, and if so will you still have a job- or will your product be affordable enough to sell in the required quantities. It's not really evil, just an economic decision. It seems like there ought to be solid state replacements for common mechanical relays. I've never had a failure of an SSR, and you can get them with built in snubbers and zero-cross switching. One would think it would be cheaper to mass produce SSRs vs mechanicals. I've seen lots of failures of solid state relays- they almost always fail 'on' and they do so more-or-less randomly rather than mechanical relays that have a definite life. They also produce a lot of heat requiring heat sinks, are more expensive and often less reliable in the bathtub part of the life curve. They have notoriously poor tolerance for overcurrent and overvoltage. There has been little improvement over the years in SSRs or mechanical relays, though both have gotten cheaper in real terms. It's possible to make SSRs more robust by using much larger overrated semiconductors and special I^2T fuses, but there's those pesky economic trade-offs again.. --sp -- Best regards, Spehro Pefhany Amazon link for AoE 3rd Edition: http://tinyurl.com/ntrpwu8 Microchip link for 2015 Masters in Phoenix: http://tinyurl.com/l7g2k48 |
Consumer electronics "war stories"
On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 12:27:54 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote: Larry Jaques wrote: I might expect one relay for each water temp, one for motor start, and maybe one for switching into spin mode, but 12? What the hell does your washer DO, besides wash clothes? Iron, fold, and stack, too? No, no no! This thing is a computer video game with a washing machine grafted on the side for grins! OK, yes, there is cold and hot water main inlet. Then, the incoming water can go straight into the tub, or it can be diverted into the softener tank, the detergent tank or the bleach tank, to deliver some of that product into the tub. Then, when the recirculate pump is on, it has valves to select where that water goes. It has two pumps (recirculate and drain) and a VFD to run the drum motor. There is a spline coupling between the motor and the basket. When the tub is filled to a certain level, an air chamber floats the basket up to disconnect the spin coupling, and then the motor is rocked back and forth for the agitate function. When draining, the basket lands on the coupling, and then the motor tweaks back and forth gently until the basket seats the coupling onto the shaft before starting the spin cycle, so as not to tear up the coupling. The pump motors look kind of like giant photograph motors, so apparently they are 120 V shaded pole motors, but have magnets in the rotor. The recirculate motor starts smoothly, but the larger drain motor rattles and vibrates for a while until the rotor falls into sync. Quite a strange way to do things. So, I think two of the big relays are for the pump motors. Another big relay must be for the heater, but I think our actual machine does NOT have a heater installed in the tub. I was able to download the service manual for the thing, by pressing certain buttons, you can activate multiple diagnostic and test procedures that exercise and partially self-test verious parts of the machine. Sheesh, what a bunch of complexity, to do what used to be done with some smooth rocks down at the riverside! Jon Greetings Jon, I am almost 100% sure that the motor is not shaded pole. A shaded pole motor starts because of the shorted winding "shading" a pole. This shorted winding is that heavy gauge copper loop around the laminations. They are not very effiecient and draw almost the same current when loaded or unloaded. Your motor sounds like a brushless DC motor. Eric |
Consumer electronics "war stories"
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Consumer electronics "war stories"
Leon Fisk wrote:
On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 12:27:54 -0600 Jon Elson wrote: snip Sheesh, what a bunch of complexity, to do what used to be done with some smooth rocks down at the riverside! Still using the old Speed Queen Wringer Washer the parents bought in the late 60's... A friend of mine has a log cabin in the Missouri Ozarks. He has a Frigidaire (I think) washer that must have been made in 1946 or something. Seems a little too modern to have been made before most industries shut down during the great depression, so I'm taking a wild guess. You fill it with a water hose, drain it by putting the drain hose on the ground, and it has a wringer. He says it still works, but I have not actually seen him fire it up. Looks like a fair bit of trouble to use, and that wringer looks seriously dangerous. Jon |
Consumer electronics "war stories"
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Consumer electronics "war stories"
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Consumer electronics "war stories"
On Mon, 07 Dec 2015 17:06:05 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote: wrote: (we're talking about the pump motors here.) I am almost 100% sure that the motor is not shaded pole. A shaded pole motor starts because of the shorted winding "shading" a pole. This shorted winding is that heavy gauge copper loop around the laminations. They are not very effiecient and draw almost the same current when loaded or unloaded. Your motor sounds like a brushless DC motor. Well, it COULD be. But, it ONLY has one winding! Two wires plus safety ground. And, it seems to have (really strong) magnets in the rotor. I can't figure out how you can get a synchronous motor to run the right direction with only one winding. It REALLY looks like one of those old phonograph motors, just bigger. Jon I thought you were talking about the main motor. Shaded pole motors could be used for pump motors. They often are because they run just as hot when stalled as when running so if one is stalled they usually won't overheat. Though there applications where a fan is connected to the motor shaft to cool the motor and they will overheat up if stalled too long, usually a couple minutes at least. Still, with a magnetic rotor I don't understand how it would work as a shaded pole. I'm mystified and am going to try to find out just how your motors work. Though shaded pole motors have the advantage of speed control by changing the voltage, starting in the preferred direction, and resistance to overheating when stalled they still waste a lot of the power consumed as heat. And this would seem to keep them from being used in modern appliances. Do these motors have the shorted winding? A heavy, like 10 gauge maybe, bare copper loop near one of the corners of the lamination stack, opposite the coil? If so then they are indeed shaded pole motors. If there is no shorted winding then I would say they are not. Eric |
Consumer electronics "war stories"
On Sun, 6 Dec 2015 15:01:38 -0400, Leon Fisk
wrote: On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 12:27:54 -0600 Jon Elson wrote: snip Sheesh, what a bunch of complexity, to do what used to be done with some smooth rocks down at the riverside! Still using the old Speed Queen Wringer Washer the parents bought in the late 60's... I have two spigots with a Y-hose to fill it. Put clothes in the washer, add some detergent to your liking. Turn on the hot water, add some cold and use your hand to feel if it is the temp you want or not. When the level gets to within 2-3 inches of the top you turn the hose over to the two rinse tubs to fill. Turn the machine on, set the cover over the top and set a separate manual timer for 8-10 minutes. While it is washing keep you eye on filling the rinse tubs to within 4-5 inches of the top. When full shut the spigots off. When the timer goes off, shut the agitator off, take the lid off and start running clothes through the ringer into the first rinse tub. When you have all the clothes in the first rinse tub, add another load to the washer. Set the timer, turn on the agitator. While the next load is washing continue sloshing clothes around in the first rinse tub and then run them through the ringer into the second rinse tub. Slosh clothes around again in the second tub and then run through ringer again. For the last time I usually run them three times through the wringer. By this time the timer has usually went off and you wring the next load of clothes into the first rinse tub... Now you can put the wrung clothes in the dryer or hang them outside weather permitting. Drop the hose down from the side of the washer and run the wash water into the sump drain. Do the same with both the rinse tubs. Take the agitator out of the washer and swab out the tank, wipe down the agitator and wringer. Swab out the rinse tubs. Let them sit awhile to finish drying and then cover back up, push aside to where you keep them and wait till the next wash day. Takes about 40 gallons of water and 1/2 cup of detergent to do my whole wash for two weeks and no relays to go bad ;-) Reminds me of my brother's comment of 50+ years ago regarding the sound of rubber pants going through the wringer. The Connor circa 1949 came with an optional small tub that functioned very well as a butter churn after it was restrained by a double hook formed from the rear brake actuater rod from a Model "A" Ford. --- Gerry :-)} London,Canada |
Consumer electronics "war stories"
On 06 Dec 2015 16:01:54 -0400, Mike Spencer
wrote: Ed Huntress writes: A Steampunk washing machine! But you need a "Casey Jones Engineer" certificate to run it. d8-) There were wringer washers that ran on small gasoline engines. In the 70s, an old guy near me said he remembered (gesturing toward the road he lived on) when they came up along there installing power poles, hooking up houses, in the 1930s. Right behind them came a salesman selling electric wringer washers. These gas powered washers usually came with a flexible length of exhaust tubing which my Grandpa often threatened to instal on Grandma! --- Gerry :-)} London,Canada |
Consumer electronics "war stories"
On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 16:43:08 -0500, wrote:
On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 15:46:17 -0500, Ed Huntress wrote: On 06 Dec 2015 16:01:54 -0400, Mike Spencer wrote: Ed Huntress writes: A Steampunk washing machine! But you need a "Casey Jones Engineer" certificate to run it. d8-) There were wringer washers that ran on small gasoline engines. In the 70s, an old guy near me said he remembered (gesturing toward the road he lived on) when they came up along there installing power poles, hooking up houses, in the 1930s. Right behind them came a salesman selling electric wringer washers. Yeah, we had the gasoline-engined washers here, too. I remember seeing some as a kid, in south New Jersey. I've got the engine.. See: http://snyder.on.ca/pages/Old%20Engi...501_engine.htm My copy of that, after many years pumping water to the garden, went to a nephew to power his go-cart! --- Gerry :-)} London,Canada |
Consumer electronics "war stories"
On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 21:03:18 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote: On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 19:26:08 -0500, wrote: On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 18:29:20 -0500, Ed Huntress wrote: On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 16:43:08 -0500, wrote: On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 15:46:17 -0500, Ed Huntress wrote: On 06 Dec 2015 16:01:54 -0400, Mike Spencer wrote: Ed Huntress writes: A Steampunk washing machine! But you need a "Casey Jones Engineer" certificate to run it. d8-) There were wringer washers that ran on small gasoline engines. In the 70s, an old guy near me said he remembered (gesturing toward the road he lived on) when they came up along there installing power poles, hooking up houses, in the 1930s. Right behind them came a salesman selling electric wringer washers. Yeah, we had the gasoline-engined washers here, too. I remember seeing some as a kid, in south New Jersey. I've got the engine.. See: http://snyder.on.ca/pages/Old%20Engi...501_engine.htm Very cool. Johnson Outboards made a motor for washing machines in the 1930s. And, if you have a copy of the 1952 edition of _The Boy Mechanic_ (I do), they have a plan for a flat-bottomed "sea sled" boat powered by one. It used a piece of rubber garden hose for a coupler to the prop shaft. OMC was Johnson. (also Evinrude) and this engine was sold under all 3 names at one point. I've seen the plans. Saw one built with a twin cyl 2 stroke Maytag years ago. There wereplans to build a midget car and a scooter using the iron horse too - as well as plans for and a commercially built Maytag Midget. The "horse" was also used on quite a few early lawn mowers and some generators and garden tractors. They also built 2 stroke iron horse engines (used on early Lawn Boy and Jacobsen mowers) There's a lot of charm in those old engines. I have only one of them left -- an O&R from the '60s (I think -- maybe the '50s). It's interesting that we never feel that from electric motors. g The motor that powers my bench disk sander is a 1-hp GE Century from before WWII. It's as big as a microwave oven, and all of the inertia makes for a great disk sander. But it has as much charm as a sump pump. Junior's FiL is looking for a non-leaking gas tank for the B&S type 5 on his roto tiller. --- Gerry :-)} London,Canada |
Consumer electronics "war stories"
On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 21:03:18 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote: On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 19:26:08 -0500, wrote: On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 18:29:20 -0500, Ed Huntress wrote: On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 16:43:08 -0500, wrote: On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 15:46:17 -0500, Ed Huntress wrote: On 06 Dec 2015 16:01:54 -0400, Mike Spencer wrote: Ed Huntress writes: A Steampunk washing machine! But you need a "Casey Jones Engineer" certificate to run it. d8-) There were wringer washers that ran on small gasoline engines. In the 70s, an old guy near me said he remembered (gesturing toward the road he lived on) when they came up along there installing power poles, hooking up houses, in the 1930s. Right behind them came a salesman selling electric wringer washers. Yeah, we had the gasoline-engined washers here, too. I remember seeing some as a kid, in south New Jersey. I've got the engine.. See: http://snyder.on.ca/pages/Old%20Engi...501_engine.htm Very cool. Johnson Outboards made a motor for washing machines in the 1930s. And, if you have a copy of the 1952 edition of _The Boy Mechanic_ (I do), they have a plan for a flat-bottomed "sea sled" boat powered by one. It used a piece of rubber garden hose for a coupler to the prop shaft. OMC was Johnson. (also Evinrude) and this engine was sold under all 3 names at one point. I've seen the plans. Saw one built with a twin cyl 2 stroke Maytag years ago. There wereplans to build a midget car and a scooter using the iron horse too - as well as plans for and a commercially built Maytag Midget. The "horse" was also used on quite a few early lawn mowers and some generators and garden tractors. They also built 2 stroke iron horse engines (used on early Lawn Boy and Jacobsen mowers) There's a lot of charm in those old engines. I have only one of them left -- an O&R from the '60s (I think -- maybe the '50s). It's interesting that we never feel that from electric motors. g The motor that powers my bench disk sander is a 1-hp GE Century from before WWII. It's as big as a microwave oven, and all of the inertia makes for a great disk sander. But it has as much charm as a sump pump. That - sump pump with the vertical shaft and column removed - is what powers my Dunlap jigsaw. --- Gerry :-)} London,Canada |
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