On Fri, 10 Apr 2015 02:57:10 +0000 (UTC), Ian Malcolm wrote:
robobass wrote in
:

When the family makes a road trip I bring along a 12v 4 amp cooler.
The ciggie plug melted long ago and I wired up one of those 3/16"
cannon shaped connectors used for low voltage home stuff like laptops,
external HDs etc. It also gets very hot and is starting to melt.
What's a good off-the-shelf solution which doesn't take up much room?
The whole ciggie plug thing is the dumbest convention ever, I must
say. I can't believe it's still extant.

A good quality cigarette plug connector in a clean good quality socket
can handle 8 to 10 amps without problems. I have a 100W inverter that
has one and has never given any trouble. However, it needs to have a
body that's held together properly with several screws, preferably a four
sided negative spring contact and a positive contact made out of plated
machined brass, not pressed steel. If the socket has actually been used
for a cigarette lighter, its basically trashed by the heat and ash and
will never be reliable.

Has anyone here used -- or even seen -- a pair of "cigarette lighter"
plugs wired together and sold as a "jumper cable"? The concept certainly
has appeal -- battery-to-battery jumper cables are heavy, bulky, and
stiff -- but how would it handle the (say) 100A "cranking current" needed
to get an automobile with a dead battery started? Ian's "8-10A", which is
an order of magnitude lower, seems like a good working figure for that
kind of connection, and with that limitation even a superconducting cable
wouldn't be enough.

Or have I missed something?


Frank McKenney
--
For the things we have to learn before we can do them, we learn by
doing them. -- Hannah Arendt
--
Frank McKenney, McKenney Associates
Richmond, Virginia / (804) 320-4887
Munged E-mail: frank uscore mckenney aatt mindspring ddoott com

Frnak McKenney fired this volley in
:

Or have I missed something?

You've missed that they usually recommend plugging the two vehicles
together for long enough to put a good surface charge on the weaker
battery, then to disconnect them during cranking.

Lloyd

On 04/10/2015 9:10 AM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Frnak fired this volley in
:

Or have I missed something?

You've missed that they usually recommend plugging the two vehicles
together for long enough to put a good surface charge on the weaker
battery, then to disconnect them during cranking.

Lloyd

And that the circuit is fused, anyway, at (probably) 20A...

--

"Frnak McKenney" wrote in
message ...

Has anyone here used -- or even seen -- a pair of "cigarette
lighter"
plugs wired together and sold as a "jumper cable"? The concept
certainly
has appeal -- battery-to-battery jumper cables are heavy, bulky, and
stiff -- but how would it handle the (say) 100A "cranking current"
needed
to get an automobile with a dead battery started? Ian's "8-10A",
which is
an order of magnitude lower, seems like a good working figure for
that
kind of connection, and with that limitation even a superconducting
cable
wouldn't be enough.

Or have I missed something?


Frank McKenney

I have one to connect the lighter sockets I added to my tractor and
battery charger. I have to be careful with it to avoid blowing the
outlet fuse by shorting the battery to the exposed sheet metal. Once
it blew from the current surge into the unpowered charger's output
capacitor.

I doubt the fuses in a car would survive the current from a good
battery to one too dead to start the engine.

The plug-to-plug jumpers could be cut and rejoined with Andersons to
get two good plugs to borrow for other uses, such as if the plug a
device comes with is bad.

-jsw

"Jim Wilkins" fired this volley in news:mg8oh3$2aj$1
@dont-email.me:

I doubt the fuses in a car would survive the current from a good
battery to one too dead to start the engine.

All the time, Jim... they're usually current-limited by a PTC thermistor in
series.

Lloyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 4.170...
"Jim Wilkins" fired this volley in
news:mg8oh3$2aj$1
@dont-email.me:

I doubt the fuses in a car would survive the current from a good
battery to one too dead to start the engine.

All the time, Jim... they're usually current-limited by a PTC
thermistor in
series.

Lloyd

In my car they are on 10A fuses, #27 for the dash and #6 for the cargo
compartment. Those tap off 40A fuses #42 and #54 in the under-hood
fusebox, per the shop manual circuit diagram here.

I know very well what PTC thermistors are, as I was threatened with a
lawsuit for using them to sense liquid levels until I showed the
lawyer that one triggered the Low Fuel light in my Accord.
-jsw

"Jim Wilkins" fired this volley in news:mg8qm1$aoi$1
@dont-email.me:

I know very well what PTC thermistors are, as I was threatened with a
lawsuit for using them to sense liquid levels until I showed the
lawyer that one triggered the Low Fuel light in my Accord.
-jsw

I wasn't 'lecturing' you, Jim, just calling your attention to the fact that
they use them in those harnesses (usually a 'pellet' style, leadless
version)

Good on ya for putting a shyster in his place!

Lloyd

On Fri, 10 Apr 2015 09:04:36 -0500, Frnak McKenney
wrote:

On Fri, 10 Apr 2015 02:57:10 +0000 (UTC), Ian Malcolm wrote:
robobass wrote in
:

When the family makes a road trip I bring along a 12v 4 amp cooler.
The ciggie plug melted long ago and I wired up one of those 3/16"
cannon shaped connectors used for low voltage home stuff like laptops,
external HDs etc. It also gets very hot and is starting to melt.
What's a good off-the-shelf solution which doesn't take up much room?
The whole ciggie plug thing is the dumbest convention ever, I must
say. I can't believe it's still extant.

A good quality cigarette plug connector in a clean good quality socket
can handle 8 to 10 amps without problems. I have a 100W inverter that
has one and has never given any trouble. However, it needs to have a
body that's held together properly with several screws, preferably a four
sided negative spring contact and a positive contact made out of plated
machined brass, not pressed steel. If the socket has actually been used
for a cigarette lighter, its basically trashed by the heat and ash and
will never be reliable.

Has anyone here used -- or even seen -- a pair of "cigarette lighter"
plugs wired together and sold as a "jumper cable"? The concept certainly
has appeal -- battery-to-battery jumper cables are heavy, bulky, and
stiff -- but how would it handle the (say) 100A "cranking current" needed
to get an automobile with a dead battery started? Ian's "8-10A", which is
an order of magnitude lower, seems like a good working figure for that
kind of connection, and with that limitation even a superconducting cable
wouldn't be enough.

I've seen one. It had 18ga wiring. That's OK for a handful of amps,
but no more. They only work on low batteries, not dead ones.


Or have I missed something?

Ayup. They're meant to charge the battery, -not- start the car.
Trying to crank over a vehicle with one would likely blow one or both
fuses for the lighters.

--
It is common sense to take a method and try it. If it fails,
admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something.
-- Franklin D. Roosevelt

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 10 Apr 2015 09:04:36 -0500, Frnak McKenney
wrote:

On Fri, 10 Apr 2015 02:57:10 +0000 (UTC), Ian Malcolm
wrote:
robobass wrote in
:

When the family makes a road trip I bring along a 12v 4 amp
cooler.
The ciggie plug melted long ago and I wired up one of those 3/16"
cannon shaped connectors used for low voltage home stuff like
laptops,
external HDs etc. It also gets very hot and is starting to melt.
What's a good off-the-shelf solution which doesn't take up much
room?
The whole ciggie plug thing is the dumbest convention ever, I
must
say. I can't believe it's still extant.

A good quality cigarette plug connector in a clean good quality
socket
can handle 8 to 10 amps without problems. I have a 100W inverter
that
has one and has never given any trouble. However, it needs to
have a
body that's held together properly with several screws, preferably
a four
sided negative spring contact and a positive contact made out of
plated
machined brass, not pressed steel. If the socket has actually
been used
for a cigarette lighter, its basically trashed by the heat and ash
and
will never be reliable.

Has anyone here used -- or even seen -- a pair of "cigarette
lighter"
plugs wired together and sold as a "jumper cable"? The concept
certainly
has appeal -- battery-to-battery jumper cables are heavy, bulky, and
stiff -- but how would it handle the (say) 100A "cranking current"
needed
to get an automobile with a dead battery started? Ian's "8-10A",
which is
an order of magnitude lower, seems like a good working figure for
that
kind of connection, and with that limitation even a superconducting
cable
wouldn't be enough.

I've seen one. It had 18ga wiring. That's OK for a handful of
amps,
but no more. They only work on low batteries, not dead ones.


Or have I missed something?

Ayup. They're meant to charge the battery, -not- start the car.
Trying to crank over a vehicle with one would likely blow one or
both
fuses for the lighters.

The one I have, likely from Radio Shack, is 16 AWG and 4' long, so
it's more of a lab bench jumper. They sold a series of power supplies
with lighter sockets for outlets. I don't know what they meant it to
deliver power to, but it works well to charge my tractor battery
through the dash outlet I added for the flasher. Cats prowl the place
I store it so I don't like to leave the hood raised and charger wires
clamped on the battery.

-jsw

On 2015-04-10, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 10 Apr 2015 02:48:00 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2015-04-09, robobass wrote:

When the family makes a road trip I bring along a 12v 4 amp cooler.
The ciggie plug melted long ago and I wired up one of those 3/16" cannon
shaped connectors used for low voltage home stuff like laptops, external
HDs etc. It also gets very hot and is starting to melt. What's a good
off-the-shelf solution which doesn't take up much room? The whole ciggie
plug thing is the dumbest convention ever, I must say. I can't believe
it's still extant.

Look into Anderson PowerPole connectors.

[ ... ]

My buddy Glenn showed me that you could remove the soldering tip from
a Weller 150W gun and induction-heat the terminal to solder the wire
in. It worked extremely well for the 4ga armored wire he gave me to
use with the towing-receiver-mounted winch. http://tinyurl.com/nejufw9

I used the Anderson Powerpoles on the winch wiring, and I'm not all
that impressed. They're less reliable than I had hoped, and I've had
to reseat the things several times in the past, though they seem to
plug right together.

Hmm ... no such experience with mine -- but perhaps that it
because I crimped the terminals instead of soldering.

It's usually not more than one extra 'fiddle'
per use, but that's once too many. I prefer plug-n-play hardware,
TYVM.

If the terminals went into the shell while still hot, they may
have melted and shifted the position of the mating surfaces. I don't
know for sure.

Hmm ... 4 ga is a bit bigger than I was using, so perhaps my
experience may not signify here.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Larry Jaques wrote:

My buddy Glenn showed me that you could remove the soldering tip from
a Weller 150W gun and induction-heat the terminal to solder the wire
in. It worked extremely well for the 4ga armored wire he gave me to
use with the towing-receiver-mounted winch. http://tinyurl.com/nejufw9

I used the Anderson Powerpoles on the winch wiring, and I'm not all
that impressed. They're less reliable than I had hoped, and I've had
to reseat the things several times in the past, though they seem to
plug right together. It's usually not more than one extra 'fiddle'
per use, but that's once too many. I prefer plug-n-play hardware,
TYVM.


OK so what do you do with the gun to turn it into an induction heater?
Make a coil of copper the size to fit the connector?



--
Steve W.

On 2015-04-10, Frnak McKenney wrote:

[ ... ]

Has anyone here used -- or even seen -- a pair of "cigarette lighter"
plugs wired together and sold as a "jumper cable"? The concept certainly
has appeal -- battery-to-battery jumper cables are heavy, bulky, and
stiff -- but how would it handle the (say) 100A "cranking current" needed
to get an automobile with a dead battery started? Ian's "8-10A", which is
an order of magnitude lower, seems like a good working figure for that
kind of connection, and with that limitation even a superconducting cable
wouldn't be enough.

Or have I missed something?

I think that the intended application is to plug it into both
car's outlets and leave the supply car idling for some time. This can
get sufficient charge into the "dead" battery -- and likely current
limited by the fairly small gauge wire used. (I'll bet the wires get
noticeably warm in use. :-)

If the dead battery is sufficiently dead, this won't work, of
course.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Look at welding cable plug/sockets.

Lots of power - easy to attach and mount.
Just a smaller hole and plug and harder to find in the dark.

It was also invented before welding machines.

Auto stuff was designed to last in TIME.
Martin

On 4/10/2015 7:35 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Ignoramus1742" wrote in message
...
On 2015-04-10, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Ignoramus1742" wrote in
message
...
On 2015-04-09, Steve W. wrote:
robobass wrote:
When the family makes a road trip I bring along a 12v 4 amp
cooler.
The ciggie plug melted long ago and I wired up one of those
3/16"
cannon shaped connectors used for low voltage home stuff like
laptops, external HDs etc. It also gets very hot and is starting
to
melt. What's a good off-the-shelf solution which doesn't take up
much
room? The whole ciggie plug thing is the dumbest convention
ever,
I
must say. I can't believe it's still extant.

I agree with robobass, I cannot believe that this retardation is
allowed to flourish in the 21st century.

http://www.andersonpower.com/product...onnectors.html


There are many other connectors competing to become the standard
for
low voltage DC, but none are as easy to insert blindly with one
gloved
hand while driving.
http://radioactivemodels.ie/store/pr...oducts_id=1063
http://www.civicsolar.com/resource/t...s-and-couplers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaxial_power_connector
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC_connector

I have hard times imagining that the humanity cannot invent
something
better.

Even I can invent something better that can be inserted with a
gloved
hand in the dark.

Hint, it can be a coaxial twist-lock connector.

i

If you make it able to deliver 20-30A for a transmitter, inverter,
fridge or faster air compressor, with screw terminals and strain
relief for 12 AWG wire and an internal fuse to protect thinner wire,
it won't be much smaller.

If you don't double or triple the present 120W power limit there's
insufficient reason to change.

I added Anderson cables that I can connect to the battery without
tools, via a wingnut on the Ford's starter solenoid and a spare
underhood fusebox lug on the car. The negative lead is permanently
connected since it isn't a fire hazard.

-jsw

What would you have cars have ? 120V AC running around the young kids in
the back ?

Actually the voltage is going up and up soon. Local areas will have
power supplies for local needs. Small high voltage wire will carry the
power needed. Getting rid of heavy lots of copper wire.

Get ready. Times are a changing.

Martin

On 4/10/2015 2:00 AM, robobass wrote:

And as for why it is on cars today -- even cars which come
*without* a cigarette lighter -- it is because it has been in cars for
long enough so people have found other uses for it -- whether it is well
designed for the purpose or not -- it gets *used* for those extra
purposes, and people complain if it is not present. :-)

Well sure, but the customer has no alternative. And a modern family will want to plug in many things. Navigator, portable DVD, phone charger... You start accumulating ciggie plug extensions and end up with wires and oversized connectors all over the place. I'm sure the industry is aware of the problem, but it's hard to revise a standard which has been there so long, not matter how bad it is. A revision would not only need cooperation between manufacturers of both cars and devices, but also woukd require rule changes by regulatory bodies in many countries. Fortunately, since I have a soldering iron, I don't need to wait another twenty years.

Are there really cars without cigarette lighters?

On 2015-04-10, robobass wrote:

And as for why it is on cars today -- even cars which come
*without* a cigarette lighter -- it is because it has been in cars for

[ ... ]

Well sure, but the customer has no alternative. And a modern family
will want to plug in many things. Navigator, portable DVD, phone
charger... You start accumulating ciggie plug extensions and end up with
wires and oversized connectors all over the place.

Take one adaptor to an Anderson PowerPole, and then use one of
the distribution blocks, which puts a number of outlets close together
for distributing the power. Then just plan to convert the appliances to
Anderson PowerPoles and the size shrinks significantly. :-)

Are there really cars without cigarette lighters?

Yes! My Nissan Cube (2013) came with a socket down low on the
console to plug in appliances (along with a USB charging and playing
socket), but no cigarette lighter nor ashtrays -- which is just fine in
my book.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Fri, 10 Apr 2015 22:36:33 -0500, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

What would you have cars have ? 120V AC running around the young kids in
the back ?

Actually the voltage is going up and up soon. Local areas will have
power supplies for local needs. Small high voltage wire will carry the
power needed. Getting rid of heavy lots of copper wire.

Get ready. Times are a changing.

Martin

On 4/10/2015 2:00 AM, robobass wrote:

And as for why it is on cars today -- even cars which come
*without* a cigarette lighter -- it is because it has been in cars for
long enough so people have found other uses for it -- whether it is well
designed for the purpose or not -- it gets *used* for those extra
purposes, and people complain if it is not present. :-)

Well sure, but the customer has no alternative. And a modern family will want to plug in many things. Navigator, portable DVD, phone charger... You start accumulating ciggie plug extensions and end up with wires and oversized connectors all over the place. I'm sure the industry is aware of the problem, but it's hard to revise a standard which has been there so long, not matter how bad it is. A revision would not only need cooperation between manufacturers of both cars and devices, but also woukd require rule changes by regulatory bodies in many countries. Fortunately, since I have a soldering iron, I don't need to wait another twenty years.

Are there really cars without cigarette lighters?

Well, there are cars without lighters - and even cars without
"auxilliary power outlets". There are also cars with 120VAC outlets in
the dash and/or rear cargo area.

I used Anderson in my RC 2Meter sail plane - taking my 8 cell
C size Ni-cads to my special built Cobalt etc motor. Motor sucked
electrons like college kids and booze on the beach.

I could drive it to 2000 feet three times using my 12" floppy propeller.

I'm retired from all of that now. But I used high tech silver plated
connectors for my 1000 strand copper wire. Wire was like a noodle.
I never had an RF sniffer around it but I suspect it was Noisy...

Martin

On 4/10/2015 7:53 AM, Pete Keillor wrote:
On Fri, 10 Apr 2015 06:34:09 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


"robobass" wrote in message
...

And as for why it is on cars today -- even cars which come
*without* a cigarette lighter -- it is because it has been in cars
for
long enough so people have found other uses for it -- whether it is
well
designed for the purpose or not -- it gets *used* for those extra
purposes, and people complain if it is not present. :-)

Well sure, but the customer has no alternative. And a modern family
will want to plug in many things. Navigator, portable DVD, phone
charger... You start accumulating ciggie plug extensions and end up
with wires and oversized connectors all over the place. I'm sure the
industry is aware of the problem, but it's hard to revise a standard
which has been there so long, not matter how bad it is. A revision
would not only need cooperation between manufacturers of both cars and
devices, but also woukd require rule changes by regulatory bodies in
many countries. Fortunately, since I have a soldering iron, I don't
need to wait another twenty years.

Are there really cars without cigarette lighters?

This is an aftermarket cigarette lighter to replace the factory power
outlet:
http://www.hondapartssuperstore.com/...ine-p-304.html


I have some of the oft mentioned powerpoles, including a flange mount
socket. They work ok and handle the current, but as another poster
said, aren't that easy to plug in.

About my favorite for RC batteries is the old Deans Ultra Plug. Tiny
and very high current for the size. But hard to plug or un-plug
because of the spring tension and difficulty in getting a grasp of the
tiny things. Also never seen a panel mount Deans.

You might look at marine stuff. Don't get the Marinco cigarette style
plug. Pain to wire and use.

http://www.downwindmarine.com/DC-Con...p-1-c-423.html

Pete Keillor

formulated the question :
On Fri, 10 Apr 2015 22:36:33 -0500, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

What would you have cars have ? 120V AC running around the young kids in
the back ?

Actually the voltage is going up and up soon. Local areas will have
power supplies for local needs. Small high voltage wire will carry the
power needed. Getting rid of heavy lots of copper wire.

Get ready. Times are a changing.

Martin

On 4/10/2015 2:00 AM, robobass wrote:

And as for why it is on cars today -- even cars which come
*without* a cigarette lighter -- it is because it has been in cars for
long enough so people have found other uses for it -- whether it is well
designed for the purpose or not -- it gets *used* for those extra
purposes, and people complain if it is not present. :-)

Well sure, but the customer has no alternative. And a modern family will
want to plug in many things. Navigator, portable DVD, phone charger... You
start accumulating ciggie plug extensions and end up with wires and
oversized connectors all over the place. I'm sure the industry is aware of
the problem, but it's hard to revise a standard which has been there so
long, not matter how bad it is. A revision would not only need cooperation
between manufacturers of both cars and devices, but also woukd require rule
changes by regulatory bodies in many countries. Fortunately, since I have a
soldering iron, I don't need to wait another twenty years.

Are there really cars without cigarette lighters?

Well, there are cars without lighters - and even cars without
"auxilliary power outlets". There are also cars with 120VAC outlets in
the dash and/or rear cargo area.

Name them please.

--
John G Sydney.

DoN. Nichols pretended :
On 2015-04-10, robobass wrote:

And as for why it is on cars today -- even cars which come
*without* a cigarette lighter -- it is because it has been in cars for

[ ... ]

Well sure, but the customer has no alternative. And a modern family
will want to plug in many things. Navigator, portable DVD, phone
charger... You start accumulating ciggie plug extensions and end up with
wires and oversized connectors all over the place.

Take one adaptor to an Anderson PowerPole, and then use one of
the distribution blocks, which puts a number of outlets close together
for distributing the power. Then just plan to convert the appliances to
Anderson PowerPoles and the size shrinks significantly. :-)

Are there really cars without cigarette lighters?

Yes! My Nissan Cube (2013) came with a socket down low on the
console to plug in appliances (along with a USB charging and playing
socket), but no cigarette lighter nor ashtrays -- which is just fine in
my book.

Enjoy,
DoN.

My Australian Commodore is like that but no USB. It is 11years old

--
John G Sydney.

John G wrote:
formulated the question :
On Fri, 10 Apr 2015 22:36:33 -0500, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

What would you have cars have ? 120V AC running around the young kids in
the back ?

Actually the voltage is going up and up soon. Local areas will have
power supplies for local needs. Small high voltage wire will carry the
power needed. Getting rid of heavy lots of copper wire.

Get ready. Times are a changing.

Martin

On 4/10/2015 2:00 AM, robobass wrote:
And as for why it is on cars today -- even cars which come
*without* a cigarette lighter -- it is because it has been in cars for
long enough so people have found other uses for it -- whether it is well
designed for the purpose or not -- it gets *used* for those extra
purposes, and people complain if it is not present. :-)

Well sure, but the customer has no alternative. And a modern family will
want to plug in many things. Navigator, portable DVD, phone charger... You
start accumulating ciggie plug extensions and end up with wires and
oversized connectors all over the place. I'm sure the industry is aware of
the problem, but it's hard to revise a standard which has been there so
long, not matter how bad it is. A revision would not only need cooperation
between manufacturers of both cars and devices, but also woukd require rule
changes by regulatory bodies in many countries. Fortunately, since I have a
soldering iron, I don't need to wait another twenty years.

Are there really cars without cigarette lighters?

Well, there are cars without lighters - and even cars without
"auxilliary power outlets". There are also cars with 120VAC outlets in
the dash and/or rear cargo area.

Name them please.


Honda Odyssey, Acura MDX, Toyota Sienna, Dodge Caliber, Dodge Ram P/U,
Chrysler T&C, Jeep Patriot, VW Jetta Wagon, Ford Flex as a start. Most
are nothing more than a 200 - 300 watt inverter stuck in there and the
outlets remote connected.
I used a 500 watt in the work van for years. Was handy to charge
batteries and power the laptop.

--
Steve W.

John G wrote:
DoN. Nichols pretended :
On 2015-04-10, robobass wrote:
And as for why it is on cars today -- even cars which come
*without* a cigarette lighter -- it is because it has been in cars for

[ ... ]

Well sure, but the customer has no alternative. And a modern family
will want to plug in many things. Navigator, portable DVD, phone
charger... You start accumulating ciggie plug extensions and end up with
wires and oversized connectors all over the place.

Take one adaptor to an Anderson PowerPole, and then use one of
the distribution blocks, which puts a number of outlets close together
for distributing the power. Then just plan to convert the appliances to
Anderson PowerPoles and the size shrinks significantly. :-)

Are there really cars without cigarette lighters?

Yes! My Nissan Cube (2013) came with a socket down low on the
console to plug in appliances (along with a USB charging and playing
socket), but no cigarette lighter nor ashtrays -- which is just fine in
my book.

Enjoy,
DoN.

My Australian Commodore is like that but no USB. It is 11years old


03 Liberty has 12V power outlets front and rear but no lighter or
ashtray. Both are optional under a "smokers package"

My 02 Blazer has power ports up front plus one in the back, lighter &
ashtray (now converted to a hidden switch panel). Plus a hardwired 1000
watt inverter/charger that I put in for emergency use.

--
Steve W.

"Steve W." wrote in message
...
John G wrote:
formulated the question :
On Fri, 10 Apr 2015 22:36:33 -0500, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

What would you have cars have ? 120V AC running around the young
kids in the back ?

Actually the voltage is going up and up soon. Local areas will
have
power supplies for local needs. Small high voltage wire will
carry the
power needed. Getting rid of heavy lots of copper wire.

Get ready. Times are a changing.

Martin

On 4/10/2015 2:00 AM, robobass wrote:
And as for why it is on cars today -- even cars which come
*without* a cigarette lighter -- it is because it has been in
cars for
long enough so people have found other uses for it -- whether
it is well
designed for the purpose or not -- it gets *used* for those
extra
purposes, and people complain if it is not present. :-)

Well sure, but the customer has no alternative. And a modern
family will want to plug in many things. Navigator, portable
DVD, phone charger... You start accumulating ciggie plug
extensions and end up with wires and oversized connectors all
over the place. I'm sure the industry is aware of the problem,
but it's hard to revise a standard which has been there so long,
not matter how bad it is. A revision would not only need
cooperation between manufacturers of both cars and devices, but
also woukd require rule changes by regulatory bodies in many
countries. Fortunately, since I have a soldering iron, I don't
need to wait another twenty years.

Are there really cars without cigarette lighters?

Well, there are cars without lighters - and even cars without
"auxilliary power outlets". There are also cars with 120VAC
outlets in
the dash and/or rear cargo area.

Name them please.


Honda Odyssey, Acura MDX, Toyota Sienna, Dodge Caliber, Dodge Ram
P/U, Chrysler T&C, Jeep Patriot, VW Jetta Wagon, Ford Flex as a
start. Most are nothing more than a 200 - 300 watt inverter stuck in
there and the outlets remote connected.
I used a 500 watt in the work van for years. Was handy to charge
batteries and power the laptop.

--
Steve W.

http://www.cars101.com/subaru/poweroutlet.html

"Martin Eastburn" wrote in message
...
Look at welding cable plug/sockets.

Lots of power - easy to attach and mount.
Just a smaller hole and plug and harder to find in the dark.

It was also invented before welding machines.

Auto stuff was designed to last in TIME.
Martin


If you want maximum performance you can specify military circular
connectors. We did for the electric car's battery cables.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Mi...specifications

-jsw

On Thu, 09 Apr 2015 19:49:15 -0500, Ignoramus1742
wrote:

On 2015-04-09, Steve W. wrote:
robobass wrote:
When the family makes a road trip I bring along a 12v 4 amp cooler.
The ciggie plug melted long ago and I wired up one of those 3/16"
cannon shaped connectors used for low voltage home stuff like
laptops, external HDs etc. It also gets very hot and is starting to
melt. What's a good off-the-shelf solution which doesn't take up much
room? The whole ciggie plug thing is the dumbest convention ever, I
must say. I can't believe it's still extant.

I agree with robobass, I cannot believe that this retardation is
allowed to flourish in the 21st century.

http://www.andersonpower.com/product...onnectors.html

Go to Walmart and buy a Trolling Motor connector. Its a simple 2 wire
heavy connector and costs about $9 for the matching pair.

Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child,
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
PJ O'Rourke

On Sat, 11 Apr 2015 07:01:45 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

someone said:
Well, there are cars without lighters - and even cars without
"auxilliary power outlets". There are also cars with 120VAC
outlets in
the dash and/or rear cargo area.

Name them please.


Honda Odyssey, Acura MDX, Toyota Sienna, Dodge Caliber, Dodge Ram
P/U, Chrysler T&C, Jeep Patriot, VW Jetta Wagon, Ford Flex as a
start. Most are nothing more than a 200 - 300 watt inverter stuck in
there and the outlets remote connected.
I used a 500 watt in the work van for years. Was handy to charge
batteries and power the laptop.

http://www.cars101.com/subaru/poweroutlet.html

Egad, a massive 100w? What -can't- we use there? bseg
I guess you could plug your electric shaver in that. Or your corded
electric toothbrush, or a night light!

--
It is common sense to take a method and try it. If it fails,
admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something.
-- Franklin D. Roosevelt

On Fri, 10 Apr 2015 22:32:13 -0500, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

Look at welding cable plug/sockets.

Lots of power - easy to attach and mount.
Just a smaller hole and plug and harder to find in the dark.

I don't know why this keeps coming up. Remember, folks:

Thou shalt not take your eyes off the road to plug accessories into
plugs while driving, dark or not.

Nexxxxxxxxxxxxt!


--
It is common sense to take a method and try it. If it fails,
admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something.
-- Franklin D. Roosevelt

On 11 Apr 2015 03:13:42 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2015-04-10, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 10 Apr 2015 02:48:00 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2015-04-09, robobass wrote:

When the family makes a road trip I bring along a 12v 4 amp cooler.
The ciggie plug melted long ago and I wired up one of those 3/16" cannon
shaped connectors used for low voltage home stuff like laptops, external
HDs etc. It also gets very hot and is starting to melt. What's a good
off-the-shelf solution which doesn't take up much room? The whole ciggie
plug thing is the dumbest convention ever, I must say. I can't believe
it's still extant.

Look into Anderson PowerPole connectors.

[ ... ]

My buddy Glenn showed me that you could remove the soldering tip from
a Weller 150W gun and induction-heat the terminal to solder the wire
in. It worked extremely well for the 4ga armored wire he gave me to
use with the towing-receiver-mounted winch. http://tinyurl.com/nejufw9

I used the Anderson Powerpoles on the winch wiring, and I'm not all
that impressed. They're less reliable than I had hoped, and I've had
to reseat the things several times in the past, though they seem to
plug right together.

Hmm ... no such experience with mine -- but perhaps that it
because I crimped the terminals instead of soldering.

A proper crimp shouldn't change the shape of the ring that much, so I
doubt this to be the problem.


It's usually not more than one extra 'fiddle'
per use, but that's once too many. I prefer plug-n-play hardware,
TYVM.

If the terminals went into the shell while still hot, they may
have melted and shifted the position of the mating surfaces. I don't
know for sure.

Newp, never made that dumb mistake. They were cold when assembled.
But it does seem to be either that they don't want to stay in the
shell or don't want to mate properly when the shells are combined.
I'm just not too dippy on the design.


Hmm ... 4 ga is a bit bigger than I was using, so perhaps my
experience may not signify here.

They may be shaped differently than the smaller guys. shrug

--
It is common sense to take a method and try it. If it fails,
admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something.
-- Franklin D. Roosevelt

On Fri, 10 Apr 2015 23:04:22 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
Ayup. They're meant to charge the battery, -not- start the car.
Trying to crank over a vehicle with one would likely blow one or
both
fuses for the lighters.

The one I have, likely from Radio Shack, is 16 AWG and 4' long, so
it's more of a lab bench jumper. They sold a series of power supplies
with lighter sockets for outlets. I don't know what they meant it to
deliver power to, but it works well to charge my tractor battery
through the dash outlet I added for the flasher. Cats prowl the place
I store it so I don't like to leave the hood raised and charger wires
clamped on the battery.

The jumper box on the tow truck I used to run (which ended my
automotive career) had a molded bakelite shell with welding style
connectors inside. They always made a really solid connection.
http://www.surplustowparts.com/produ...sa-usa20-4.htm
Something like that.

--
It is common sense to take a method and try it. If it fails,
admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something.
-- Franklin D. Roosevelt

On 11 Apr 2015 03:23:51 GMT, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2015-04-10, Frnak McKenney wrote:

[ ... ]

Has anyone here used -- or even seen -- a pair of "cigarette lighter"
plugs wired together and sold as a "jumper cable"? The concept certainly
has appeal -- battery-to-battery jumper cables are heavy, bulky, and
stiff -- but how would it handle the (say) 100A "cranking current" needed
to get an automobile with a dead battery started? Ian's "8-10A", which is
an order of magnitude lower, seems like a good working figure for that
kind of connection, and with that limitation even a superconducting cable
wouldn't be enough.

Or have I missed something?

I think that the intended application is to plug it into both
car's outlets and leave the supply car idling for some time. This can
get sufficient charge into the "dead" battery -- and likely current
limited by the fairly small gauge wire used. (I'll bet the wires get
noticeably warm in use. :-)

If the dead battery is sufficiently dead, this won't work, of
course.

Okay. Thanks, DoN. And Larry. And Lloyd. And anyone else i missed. grin

Using it to recharge the battery makes a lot more sense. I think I saw
the two plugs and the cable, noticed that it was advertised for starting
a car with a dead battery, and mentally filed it under "You've GOT to be
kidding!" As you all point out, limited to 10A it (probably) won't smoke,
and in 10-20 minutes would pump enough electrons into a discharged-but-
still-good battery to let someone attempt to start a car with it.

Hm. Let's see... add overcurrent protection, voltage measurement, a
Coulomb counter, and an LED/LCD display, and the gadget could tell you
when the recipient battery was ready to "take its shot". Not a
guarantee, of course, since I assume different vehicles require more or
less amperage to get started, but a hint at least of when _not_ to try.
And the package would still weigh a heck of a lot less than regular 12'
100A jumper cables (even the aluminum ones).

Interesting...

Toss in a pair of lighter-plug-to-pair-of-battery-clips adapters for
those cases where one or the other party (or both) lacks a "cigarette
lighter" socket and it's a really useful gadget. I think I owe some
company an apology for my nasty thoughts. grin

Thanks again for the enlightenment.


Frank
--
"No, the captain does not believe in indiscreet questions.
He believes the only way to get pertinent information is to
ask impertinent questions."
-- Findell to Lennier / Babylon 5:Meditations on the Abyss
--
Frank McKenney, McKenney Associates
Richmond, Virginia / (804) 320-4887
Munged E-mail: frank uscore mckenney aatt mindspring ddoott com

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On 11 Apr 2015 03:13:42 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"

wrote:
On 2015-04-10, Larry Jaques
wrote:
On 10 Apr 2015 02:48:00 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"

wrote:
On 2015-04-09, robobass wrote:


I used the Anderson Powerpoles on the winch wiring, and I'm not
all
that impressed. They're less reliable than I had hoped, and I've
had
to reseat the things several times in the past, though they seem
to
plug right together.

Hmm ... no such experience with mine -- but perhaps that it
because I crimped the terminals instead of soldering.

A proper crimp shouldn't change the shape of the ring that much, so
I
doubt this to be the problem.

At Segway I crimped a lot of 45A Andersons with the proper tool.
Sometimes the pin curved enough to not go in easily or not snap onto
the retention spring. The fix was to bend it straighter.

Quicksilver Radio usually has a table at the NEAR-Fest ham radio flea
market.
http://www.qsradio.com/
http://www.near-fest.com:8084/nearfest/

-jsw

"Frnak McKenney" wrote in
message ...

Hm. Let's see... add overcurrent protection, voltage measurement, a
Coulomb counter, and an LED/LCD display, and the gadget could tell
you
when the recipient battery was ready to "take its shot". Not a
guarantee, of course, since I assume different vehicles require more
or
less amperage to get started, but a hint at least of when _not_ to
try.
And the package would still weigh a heck of a lot less than regular
12'
100A jumper cables (even the aluminum ones).

Interesting...

Toss in a pair of lighter-plug-to-pair-of-battery-clips adapters for
those cases where one or the other party (or both) lacks a
"cigarette
lighter" socket and it's a really useful gadget. I think I owe some
company an apology for my nasty thoughts. grin

Thanks again for the enlightenment.
Frank

A lighter plug voltmeter will give you the battery voltage but NOT the
starting capacity of an old, sulfated battery, the kind that needs a
jump As the plates deteriorate or clog with sulfate they behave like
smaller batteries which appear to charge more quickly.

http://www.trojanbattery.com/Battery...qualizing.aspx
They suggest 15.5V to equalize and desulfate. I limit the current to
about 1% of the battery's Amp-Hour capacity when leaving it unattended
for a day or two. It requires a special or manually adjustable
charger, such as a lab power supply.

-jsw

On Sat, 11 Apr 2015 04:11:15 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

John G wrote:
DoN. Nichols pretended :
On 2015-04-10, robobass wrote:
And as for why it is on cars today -- even cars which come
*without* a cigarette lighter -- it is because it has been in cars for

[ ... ]

Well sure, but the customer has no alternative. And a modern family
will want to plug in many things. Navigator, portable DVD, phone
charger... You start accumulating ciggie plug extensions and end up with
wires and oversized connectors all over the place.

Take one adaptor to an Anderson PowerPole, and then use one of
the distribution blocks, which puts a number of outlets close together
for distributing the power. Then just plan to convert the appliances to
Anderson PowerPoles and the size shrinks significantly. :-)

Are there really cars without cigarette lighters?

Yes! My Nissan Cube (2013) came with a socket down low on the
console to plug in appliances (along with a USB charging and playing
socket), but no cigarette lighter nor ashtrays -- which is just fine in
my book.

Enjoy,
DoN.

My Australian Commodore is like that but no USB. It is 11years old


03 Liberty has 12V power outlets front and rear but no lighter or
ashtray. Both are optional under a "smokers package"

My 02 Blazer has power ports up front plus one in the back, lighter &
ashtray (now converted to a hidden switch panel). Plus a hardwired 1000
watt inverter/charger that I put in for emergency use.

Hell...my 99 Chevy Venture has a plug behind a panel at the rear, a
cigarette lighter plug and another power plug farther up the dash.

That is 15 yrs old..so they been doing it a while.

Course my Ranger has a hardwired 300 watt inverter and my E350 used to
have a 3000 watt inverter..until it was stolen out of it while it was
in storage

Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child,
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
PJ O'Rourke

On Sat, 11 Apr 2015 06:07:51 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 10 Apr 2015 23:04:22 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
Ayup. They're meant to charge the battery, -not- start the car.
Trying to crank over a vehicle with one would likely blow one or
both
fuses for the lighters.

The one I have, likely from Radio Shack, is 16 AWG and 4' long, so
it's more of a lab bench jumper. They sold a series of power supplies
with lighter sockets for outlets. I don't know what they meant it to
deliver power to, but it works well to charge my tractor battery
through the dash outlet I added for the flasher. Cats prowl the place
I store it so I don't like to leave the hood raised and charger wires
clamped on the battery.

The jumper box on the tow truck I used to run (which ended my
automotive career) had a molded bakelite shell with welding style
connectors inside. They always made a really solid connection.
http://www.surplustowparts.com/produ...sa-usa20-4.htm
Something like that.

Hell..why not simply buy a proper self wiping power plug?

http://www.grainger.com/category/bat...ecatalog/N-8hx

The 50 ampers are small enough for this application. Found everywhere
on battery powered forklifts so are well known and have zero problems
over long periods of time.


"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child,
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
PJ O'Rourke

On Saturday, April 11, 2015 at 4:24:47 AM UTC-7, Jim Wilkins wrote:
[about automobile/DC power connectors]

If you want maximum performance you can specify military circular
connectors. We did for the electric car's battery cables.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Mi...specifications

It's cheaper to select from consumer-goods parts. Maybe these:

http://www.pimfg.com/Product/Power-Cable-Connectors

It's cheaper to select from consumer-goods parts. Maybe these:

http://www.pimfg.com/Product/Power-Cable-Connectors

Yeah. Those are actually called Speak-On. Invented by Neutrix and the industry standard for PA speakers. Way better than the ciggie plug system. About the same size, though. I didn't know they were in use for other purposes, but it makes sense. They are cheap, reliable, and available in 2, 4, or 8 pole.

As to cars without ciggie plugs. Maybe there isn't an actual lighter and ashtray, but it's still the same socket, isn't it? My whole point is that maybe it's time for a different 12v connector protocol in cars. Sometimes I just can't seem to adequately explain my ideas. I must be just dumb or getting Alzheimers...or?

On Sat, 11 Apr 2015 15:13:38 +1000, John G wrote:

formulated the question :
On Fri, 10 Apr 2015 22:36:33 -0500, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

What would you have cars have ? 120V AC running around the young kids in
the back ?

Actually the voltage is going up and up soon. Local areas will have
power supplies for local needs. Small high voltage wire will carry the
power needed. Getting rid of heavy lots of copper wire.

Get ready. Times are a changing.

Martin

On 4/10/2015 2:00 AM, robobass wrote:

And as for why it is on cars today -- even cars which come
*without* a cigarette lighter -- it is because it has been in cars for
long enough so people have found other uses for it -- whether it is well
designed for the purpose or not -- it gets *used* for those extra
purposes, and people complain if it is not present. :-)

Well sure, but the customer has no alternative. And a modern family will
want to plug in many things. Navigator, portable DVD, phone charger... You
start accumulating ciggie plug extensions and end up with wires and
oversized connectors all over the place. I'm sure the industry is aware of
the problem, but it's hard to revise a standard which has been there so
long, not matter how bad it is. A revision would not only need cooperation
between manufacturers of both cars and devices, but also woukd require rule
changes by regulatory bodies in many countries. Fortunately, since I have a
soldering iron, I don't need to wait another twenty years.

Are there really cars without cigarette lighters?

Well, there are cars without lighters - and even cars without
"auxilliary power outlets". There are also cars with 120VAC outlets in
the dash and/or rear cargo area.

Name them please.
Well, I KNOW the 2013 Durango had a 150 watt 120 volt AC outlet
standard in all but the low end SXT, Ford Flex has it too (or did in
2013). 2014 Toyota 4-runner has one too, So did the Nissan
Pathfinder.Also available in the 2015 GMC Acadia.
Starting in 2010 it was available (100 watt only) in the Subaru
Imprezza and outback.The Hyundai SantaFe also has or had it available,
either as standard or optional equipment. It is also in the Veloster.
I know it is also availble as a factory option on the Silverado/Sierra
pickups and the Suburbans.

I'm sure they are in a lot of other vehicles as well. The GMC Hybrid
pickup had I believe 1500 watts of AC available for the 2 years it was
built. You could run a Skill Saw off of it.

On Sat, 11 Apr 2015 06:07:51 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 10 Apr 2015 23:04:22 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
Ayup. They're meant to charge the battery, -not- start the car.
Trying to crank over a vehicle with one would likely blow one or
both
fuses for the lighters.

The one I have, likely from Radio Shack, is 16 AWG and 4' long, so
it's more of a lab bench jumper. They sold a series of power supplies
with lighter sockets for outlets. I don't know what they meant it to
deliver power to, but it works well to charge my tractor battery
through the dash outlet I added for the flasher. Cats prowl the place
I store it so I don't like to leave the hood raised and charger wires
clamped on the battery.

The jumper box on the tow truck I used to run (which ended my
automotive career) had a molded bakelite shell with welding style
connectors inside. They always made a really solid connection.
http://www.surplustowparts.com/produ...sa-usa20-4.htm
Something like that.
My 1976 Ramcharger had welding cable connectors on the left front
fender to plug the 25 foot booster cables into. The plow hydraulic
pump was connected with Anderson PowerPoles.

On 2015-04-11, Martin Eastburn wrote:
Look at welding cable plug/sockets.

Lots of power - easy to attach and mount.
Just a smaller hole and plug and harder to find in the dark.

If they're like the ones which I know -- there is another
disadvantage in the dark, You've got two separate connectors, for ground
and hot, and how do you see which color you're plugging into which
socket? :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 12 Apr 2015 02:30:03 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2015-04-11, Martin Eastburn wrote:
Look at welding cable plug/sockets.

Lots of power - easy to attach and mount.
Just a smaller hole and plug and harder to find in the dark.

If they're like the ones which I know -- there is another
disadvantage in the dark, You've got two separate connectors, for ground
and hot, and how do you see which color you're plugging into which
socket? :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.
There ARE polarized welding plugs. 2 different size barrels and
sockets.

Those are good plugs, but if you add half a dozen to carry the current,
that is a code violation in many places.

Martin

On 4/11/2015 6:24 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Martin Eastburn" wrote in message
...
Look at welding cable plug/sockets.

Lots of power - easy to attach and mount.
Just a smaller hole and plug and harder to find in the dark.

It was also invented before welding machines.

Auto stuff was designed to last in TIME.
Martin


If you want maximum performance you can specify military circular
connectors. We did for the electric car's battery cables.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Mi...specifications

-jsw