I just bought a rifling button so I can make my own 9mm barrels
http://tinyurl.com/kdn8mzg

You need a five ton press to push this button down a barrel to form
the rifling. OK, what would be the highest strength steel i can get
for the pusher. I looked for HSS and couldn't find anything long
enough. looked for already hardened drill rod. It must be out there
but no joy so far.

My first barrels will be 12", want to do 16" in the future.

Karl

"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
...
I just bought a rifling button so I can make my own 9mm barrels
http://tinyurl.com/kdn8mzg

You need a five ton press to push this button down a barrel to form
the rifling. OK, what would be the highest strength steel i can get
for the pusher. I looked for HSS and couldn't find anything long
enough. looked for already hardened drill rod. It must be out there
but no joy so far.

My first barrels will be 12", want to do 16" in the future.

Karl

Milwaukee 3/8" x 24" HSS Installer drill bit:
http://www.mscdirect.com/product/037...S&026=nv&025=c

You'd have to determine how far in the chucking end was annealed.
jsw

On Thu, 19 Sep 2013 05:18:44 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

I just bought a rifling button so I can make my own 9mm barrels
http://tinyurl.com/kdn8mzg

You need a five ton press to push this button down a barrel to form
the rifling. OK, what would be the highest strength steel i can get
for the pusher. I looked for HSS and couldn't find anything long
enough. looked for already hardened drill rod. It must be out there
but no joy so far.

My first barrels will be 12", want to do 16" in the future.

Karl

If the bar can be 0.35" diameter, you're looking at less than 0.1 ^2
in. of area. Yikes. You need 100 ksi compressive yield strength in the
bar to handle the full five tons.

HSS is no stronger than many high-strength alloys. Pre-hardened,
ground drill rod is available.

Another possibility is the bar stock from Timken and others, intended
for making roller bearings. That stuff runs upward of 180 ksi tensile.
In most steels, compressive strength is close to, and directly related
to, tensile strength. And tensile specs are easier to find than
compression-strength specs.

Music wire in these dimensions is not nearly as strong as the thinner
types.

Good luck!

--
Ed Huntress (remove "3" for real email address)

On Thursday, September 19, 2013 6:18:44 AM UTC-4, Karl Townsend wrote:
I just bought a rifling button so I can make my own 9mm barrels

http://tinyurl.com/kdn8mzg



You need a five ton press to push this button down a barrel to form

the rifling. OK, what would be the highest strength steel i can get

for the pusher. I looked for HSS and couldn't find anything long

enough. looked for already hardened drill rod. It must be out there

but no joy so far.



My first barrels will be 12", want to do 16" in the future.



Karl

Hi,

Would a solid carbide bar work as a pusher?

5/16" by 12" sold here for instance:

http://centennialcarbide.com/product...ng-micrograin/

This is why pulling buttons is preferred of course.

Didn't you say you were doing the gun drilling on a Hardinge CNC?
If so, don't they have a max of 12" in Z axis travel?
How's that all going to work out?


G'luck,
--

PaulS

On Thu, 19 Sep 2013 07:34:05 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Thu, 19 Sep 2013 05:18:44 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

I just bought a rifling button so I can make my own 9mm barrels
http://tinyurl.com/kdn8mzg

You need a five ton press to push this button down a barrel to form
the rifling. OK, what would be the highest strength steel i can get
for the pusher. I looked for HSS and couldn't find anything long
enough. looked for already hardened drill rod. It must be out there
but no joy so far.

My first barrels will be 12", want to do 16" in the future.

Karl

If the bar can be 0.35" diameter, you're looking at less than 0.1 ^2
in. of area. Yikes. You need 100 ksi compressive yield strength in the
bar to handle the full five tons.

HSS is no stronger than many high-strength alloys. Pre-hardened,
ground drill rod is available.

Another possibility is the bar stock from Timken and others, intended
for making roller bearings. That stuff runs upward of 180 ksi tensile.
In most steels, compressive strength is close to, and directly related
to, tensile strength. And tensile specs are easier to find than
compression-strength specs.

Music wire in these dimensions is not nearly as strong as the thinner
types.

Good luck!

Any idea where to order the timken stuff?

What about the carbide listed in the next post?

Karl

On Thu, 19 Sep 2013 07:02:38 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

On Thu, 19 Sep 2013 07:34:05 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Thu, 19 Sep 2013 05:18:44 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

I just bought a rifling button so I can make my own 9mm barrels
http://tinyurl.com/kdn8mzg

You need a five ton press to push this button down a barrel to form
the rifling. OK, what would be the highest strength steel i can get
for the pusher. I looked for HSS and couldn't find anything long
enough. looked for already hardened drill rod. It must be out there
but no joy so far.

My first barrels will be 12", want to do 16" in the future.

Karl

If the bar can be 0.35" diameter, you're looking at less than 0.1 ^2
in. of area. Yikes. You need 100 ksi compressive yield strength in the
bar to handle the full five tons.

HSS is no stronger than many high-strength alloys. Pre-hardened,
ground drill rod is available.

Another possibility is the bar stock from Timken and others, intended
for making roller bearings. That stuff runs upward of 180 ksi tensile.
In most steels, compressive strength is close to, and directly related
to, tensile strength. And tensile specs are easier to find than
compression-strength specs.

Music wire in these dimensions is not nearly as strong as the thinner
types.

Good luck!

Any idea where to order the timken stuff?

You need a small steel supplier or a steel service center that will
sell you a little piece. They don't want to, but sometimes they're
sympathetic.

If it were me, I'd look into Timken's list of suppliers:

http://www.timken.com/en-us/purchase/Pages/default.aspx

....and get on the phone with them. Tell them frankly that you need one
piece. They may know of a supplier who will do it for you.

Or you could become a manufacturing magazine editor and ask for a
sample. d8-)

Timken bearing steel is the high-end solution. Really, 0-1 is more
than enough. It's typically delivered in one of three conditions:
annealed, as-rolled, and hardened. As-rolled is Rc 50. Its compressive
yield strength is 196,000 psi -- 'way more than you need.

That's probably the easiest one to get, because small steel suppliers,
and even online hobby suppliers and *maybe* Brownell's, deal in
onesies and twosies of that material.


What about the carbide listed in the next post?

Crack!...goes an expensive piece of carbide. It's not tough enough for
futzing around with a small-shop press.

Again, good luck. You shouldn't have trouble finding a piece of steel
that's strong enough, although ordinary mild steel might turn to mush
under that much compression. Go for a good, common alloy steel, or
maybe a hardened piece of 1070 or1090 carbon steel, and you should be
able to do it. At that small diameter, even cold-rolled high-carbon
should do it. Cold-rolling hardens small diameters much more than
larger ones.

(I always thought they pulled, rather than pushed, rifling buttons,
but maybe that's just the gun manufacturers.)

--
Ed Huntress


Karl

On Thu, 19 Sep 2013 04:38:37 -0700 (PDT), PCS
wrote:

On Thursday, September 19, 2013 6:18:44 AM UTC-4, Karl Townsend wrote:
I just bought a rifling button so I can make my own 9mm barrels

http://tinyurl.com/kdn8mzg



You need a five ton press to push this button down a barrel to form

the rifling. OK, what would be the highest strength steel i can get

for the pusher. I looked for HSS and couldn't find anything long

enough. looked for already hardened drill rod. It must be out there

but no joy so far.



My first barrels will be 12", want to do 16" in the future.



Karl

Hi,

Would a solid carbide bar work as a pusher?

5/16" by 12" sold here for instance:

http://centennialcarbide.com/product...ng-micrograin/

This is why pulling buttons is preferred of course.

Didn't you say you were doing the gun drilling on a Hardinge CNC?
If so, don't they have a max of 12" in Z axis travel?
How's that all going to work out?


G'luck,
Thanks for the carbide lead. A push button was in my (super cheapo)
price range.


I'm going to modify a turret plate with a 1.375 square by real long
gundrill tool holder. Drill 12", back up and stop. Loosen holder,
slide ahead, restart drilling. I'd use a manual lathe but the hardinge
has a nice flood coolant setup and complete enclosure.

Karl

What about the carbide listed in the next post?

Crack!...goes an expensive piece of carbide. It's not tough enough for
futzing around with a small-shop press.

Again, good luck. You shouldn't have trouble finding a piece of steel
that's strong enough, although ordinary mild steel might turn to mush
under that much compression. Go for a good, common alloy steel, or
maybe a hardened piece of 1070 or1090 carbon steel, and you should be
able to do it. At that small diameter, even cold-rolled high-carbon
should do it. Cold-rolling hardens small diameters much more than
larger ones.

(I always thought they pulled, rather than pushed, rifling buttons,
but maybe that's just the gun manufacturers.)

Thanks, not bad advice for a flaming liberal from KCB.
ducking and running

Push type buttons are cheaper, fits my lifestyle. Also, from what I've
read, pull type actually fail more easily. The pull rod breaks right
where the threads end.

Karl

On Thu, 19 Sep 2013 08:24:30 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:


What about the carbide listed in the next post?

Crack!...goes an expensive piece of carbide. It's not tough enough for
futzing around with a small-shop press.

Again, good luck. You shouldn't have trouble finding a piece of steel
that's strong enough, although ordinary mild steel might turn to mush
under that much compression. Go for a good, common alloy steel, or
maybe a hardened piece of 1070 or1090 carbon steel, and you should be
able to do it. At that small diameter, even cold-rolled high-carbon
should do it. Cold-rolling hardens small diameters much more than
larger ones.

(I always thought they pulled, rather than pushed, rifling buttons,
but maybe that's just the gun manufacturers.)

Thanks, not bad advice for a flaming liberal from KCB.
ducking and running

Push type buttons are cheaper, fits my lifestyle. Also, from what I've
read, pull type actually fail more easily. The pull rod breaks right
where the threads end.

Yeah, I could see that.

I guess I told about the rifling tool we used in my old shop to make a
muzzleloader pistol barrel. It was an adaption of the tools that
Pennsylvania rifle builders used over 200 years ago. We stacked a few
pieces of hacksaw blade side-by-side into a tool we made from drill
rod, with one slot in the side to hold the blades. We shimmed under
the blades to adjust cut depth, progressively through multiple
strokes.

For a final finishing pass, we ground a lathe bit to fit in the slot
and cut a couple of tenths to make the grooves flat and smooth.

The tool for controlling twist was a 3/4" piece of square bar that we
clamped at one end in a monster vise, put a big pipe wrench on the
other end, and twisted. This was pinned to the cutting tool and drawn
though a piece of plate with a square hole in it. Indexed four times,
we got a four-groove barrel.

My partner in that job shop had apprenticed to an antique gunsmith
(both the guns and the smith were antiques) in New Hope, PA. He
learned a lot of tricks and made several rifles and a bunch of horse
pistols from scratch.

--
Ed Huntress


Karl

On Thursday, September 19, 2013 9:00:34 AM UTC-4, Karl Townsend wrote:

Thanks for the carbide lead. A push button was in my (super cheapo)

price range.





I'm going to modify a turret plate with a 1.375 square by real long

gundrill tool holder. Drill 12", back up and stop. Loosen holder,

slide ahead, restart drilling. I'd use a manual lathe but the hardinge

has a nice flood coolant setup and complete enclosure.



Karl

Ahhh, very clever that.

I would think your push bar problem is less about compression and more about bowing.
An uneven force will cock the button off center for a bad result...as far as I understand it.

I've heard of using hydraulic force to push a button through a (threaded) barrel.
I wonder if some type of a grease gun would have enough pressure?

Will look forward to updates on your progress.

I am still hoping to make a reproduction rifled barrel for my .177 air pistol some day.

--
PaulS

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 19 Sep 2013 05:18:44 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

I just bought a rifling button so I can make my own 9mm barrels
http://tinyurl.com/kdn8mzg

You need a five ton press to push this button down a barrel to form
the rifling. OK, what would be the highest strength steel i can get
for the pusher. I looked for HSS and couldn't find anything long
enough. looked for already hardened drill rod. It must be out there
but no joy so far.

My first barrels will be 12", want to do 16" in the future.

Karl

If the bar can be 0.35" diameter, you're looking at less than 0.1 ^2
in. of area. Yikes. You need 100 ksi compressive yield strength in
the
bar to handle the full five tons.

Would a Grade 8 bolt shank (or a stack of them) be strong enough?

jsw

On Thu, 19 Sep 2013 12:35:28 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 19 Sep 2013 05:18:44 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

I just bought a rifling button so I can make my own 9mm barrels
http://tinyurl.com/kdn8mzg

You need a five ton press to push this button down a barrel to form
the rifling. OK, what would be the highest strength steel i can get
for the pusher. I looked for HSS and couldn't find anything long
enough. looked for already hardened drill rod. It must be out there
but no joy so far.

My first barrels will be 12", want to do 16" in the future.

Karl

If the bar can be 0.35" diameter, you're looking at less than 0.1 ^2
in. of area. Yikes. You need 100 ksi compressive yield strength in
the
bar to handle the full five tons.

Would a Grade 8 bolt shank (or a stack of them) be strong enough?

jsw

Supposedly their tensile yield strength is 130 ksi. Compressive
strength should be similar.

It's no a lot of margin, but it theoretically should be OK. I'd worry
about a stack scratching up the bore.

--
Ed Huntress

On Thu, 19 Sep 2013 08:49:21 -0700 (PDT), PCS
wrote:

On Thursday, September 19, 2013 9:00:34 AM UTC-4, Karl Townsend wrote:

Thanks for the carbide lead. A push button was in my (super cheapo)

price range.





I'm going to modify a turret plate with a 1.375 square by real long

gundrill tool holder. Drill 12", back up and stop. Loosen holder,

slide ahead, restart drilling. I'd use a manual lathe but the hardinge

has a nice flood coolant setup and complete enclosure.



Karl

Ahhh, very clever that.

I would think your push bar problem is less about compression and more about bowing.

It's so constrained by the bore that there would be no significant
bowing.

An uneven force will cock the button off center for a bad result...as far as I understand it.

I'd think that it's important for the mating faces to match well and
to be most of the bore diameter.


I've heard of using hydraulic force to push a button through a (threaded) barrel.
I wonder if some type of a grease gun would have enough pressure?

Will look forward to updates on your progress.

I am still hoping to make a reproduction rifled barrel for my .177 air pistol some day.

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message ...
On Thu, 19 Sep 2013 12:35:28 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 19 Sep 2013 05:18:44 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

I just bought a rifling button so I can make my own 9mm barrels
http://tinyurl.com/kdn8mzg

You need a five ton press to push this button down a barrel to form
the rifling. OK, what would be the highest strength steel i can get
for the pusher. I looked for HSS and couldn't find anything long
enough. looked for already hardened drill rod. It must be out there
but no joy so far.

My first barrels will be 12", want to do 16" in the future.

Karl

If the bar can be 0.35" diameter, you're looking at less than 0.1 ^2
in. of area. Yikes. You need 100 ksi compressive yield strength in
the
bar to handle the full five tons.

Would a Grade 8 bolt shank (or a stack of them) be strong enough?

jsw

Supposedly their tensile yield strength is 130 ksi. Compressive
strength should be similar.

It's no a lot of margin, but it theoretically should be OK. I'd worry
about a stack scratching up the bore.


A piston rod salvaged from an automotive type gas spring would probably work fine.

On Thu, 19 Sep 2013 11:23:19 -0700, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message ...
On Thu, 19 Sep 2013 12:35:28 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 19 Sep 2013 05:18:44 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

I just bought a rifling button so I can make my own 9mm barrels
http://tinyurl.com/kdn8mzg

You need a five ton press to push this button down a barrel to form
the rifling. OK, what would be the highest strength steel i can get
for the pusher. I looked for HSS and couldn't find anything long
enough. looked for already hardened drill rod. It must be out there
but no joy so far.

My first barrels will be 12", want to do 16" in the future.

Karl

If the bar can be 0.35" diameter, you're looking at less than 0.1 ^2
in. of area. Yikes. You need 100 ksi compressive yield strength in
the
bar to handle the full five tons.

Would a Grade 8 bolt shank (or a stack of them) be strong enough?

jsw

Supposedly their tensile yield strength is 130 ksi. Compressive
strength should be similar.

It's no a lot of margin, but it theoretically should be OK. I'd worry
about a stack scratching up the bore.


A piston rod salvaged from an automotive type gas spring would probably work fine.

Probably. Almost all of those are made from 1070, not an alloy, but
they're fairly hard and should be strong enough.

--
Ed Huntress

On Thu, 19 Sep 2013 13:07:56 -0400, Ed Huntress wrote:

On Thu, 19 Sep 2013 08:49:21 -0700 (PDT), PCS
wrote:

On Thursday, September 19, 2013 9:00:34 AM UTC-4, Karl Townsend wrote:

Thanks for the carbide lead. A push button was in my (super cheapo)

price range.





I'm going to modify a turret plate with a 1.375 square by real long

gundrill tool holder. Drill 12", back up and stop. Loosen holder,

slide ahead, restart drilling. I'd use a manual lathe but the hardinge

has a nice flood coolant setup and complete enclosure.



Karl

Ahhh, very clever that.

I would think your push bar problem is less about compression and more
about bowing.

It's so constrained by the bore that there would be no significant
bowing.

Certainly once it's well in -- but if those things work the way I think
they do, getting it started would be critical.

Of course, I'm just extrapolating from the term -- I haven't even hunted
up a YouTube video of the process.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

On 9/19/2013 6:18 AM, Karl Townsend wrote:
I just bought a rifling button so I can make my own 9mm barrels
http://tinyurl.com/kdn8mzg

You need a five ton press to push this button down a barrel to form
the rifling. OK, what would be the highest strength steel i can get
for the pusher. I looked for HSS and couldn't find anything long
enough. looked for already hardened drill rod. It must be out there
but no joy so far.

My first barrels will be 12", want to do 16" in the future.

Karl



How about 3 grains of Bullseye?

On Thu, 19 Sep 2013 14:11:36 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Thu, 19 Sep 2013 13:07:56 -0400, Ed Huntress wrote:

On Thu, 19 Sep 2013 08:49:21 -0700 (PDT), PCS
wrote:

On Thursday, September 19, 2013 9:00:34 AM UTC-4, Karl Townsend wrote:

Thanks for the carbide lead. A push button was in my (super cheapo)

price range.





I'm going to modify a turret plate with a 1.375 square by real long

gundrill tool holder. Drill 12", back up and stop. Loosen holder,

slide ahead, restart drilling. I'd use a manual lathe but the hardinge

has a nice flood coolant setup and complete enclosure.



Karl

Ahhh, very clever that.

I would think your push bar problem is less about compression and more
about bowing.

It's so constrained by the bore that there would be no significant
bowing.

Certainly once it's well in -- but if those things work the way I think
they do, getting it started would be critical.

Of course, I'm just extrapolating from the term -- I haven't even hunted
up a YouTube video of the process.

That's a good point. Maybe a guide wold be needed. Also, maybe that's
a good reason for pulling rather than pushing. That's the case with
very long (often over 12 feet), thin broaches. Beyond a certain length
and minimum diameter, they're usually pulled.

But they have guide bushings if they're pushed. With the skinny push
rod talked about here, you'd certainly need some kind of help at the
beginning of the push.

--
Ed Huntress

Karl - how have you calculated the neccessary force? 11000 lbs sounds
hopefully hi.

Hul

Karl Townsend wrote:
I just bought a rifling button so I can make my own 9mm barrels
http://tinyurl.com/kdn8mzg

You need a five ton press to push this button down a barrel to form
the rifling. OK, what would be the highest strength steel i can get
for the pusher. I looked for HSS and couldn't find anything long
enough. looked for already hardened drill rod. It must be out there
but no joy so far.

My first barrels will be 12", want to do 16" in the future.

Karl

On Thursday, September 19, 2013 8:46:12 AM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:





If the bar can be 0.35" diameter, you're looking at less than 0.1 ^2

in. of area. Yikes. You need 100 ksi compressive yield strength in the

bar to handle the full five tons.




Ed Huntress

I am a frugal person so my suggestion would be to go to your auto salvage yard and if you can find it, get a torsion bar from a Nissan Truck. Second choice would be an axle shaft. Both will require reducing the diameter using a carbide bit. But if you do use steel from a auto wrecking yard, try to get steel that as close as possible to the diameter you want. Not only for less machinging , but I am not sure how deep the heat treatment goes on axles and torsion bars.

Dan

On Thursday, September 19, 2013 11:25:28 PM UTC-4, wrote:




I am a frugal person so my suggestion would be to go to your auto salvage yard and if you can find it, get a torsion bar from a Nissan Truck. Second choice would be an axle shaft. Both will require reducing the diameter using a carbide bit. But if you do use steel from a auto wrecking yard, try to get steel that as close as possible to the diameter you want. Not only for less machinging , but I am not sure how deep the heat treatment goes on axles and torsion bars.



Dan

After posting this, I looked around the internet and found that most car axles are now made of medium carbon steel. But also found Admiral steel near Chicago that sells to knife makers . And they sell 52100 steel in 3/4 inch dia at reasonable prices.

http://www.admiralsteel.com

About 3$ for 12 inches of 3/4 dia 52100 steel. About 6$ for 24 inches.

Dan

On Thu, 19 Sep 2013 22:15:48 +0000, dbr wrote:

Karl - how have you calculated the neccessary force? 11000 lbs sounds
hopefully hi.

Maybe you need that big of a press to get the button out when it gets
cocked half way through?



--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

follow up

found long HSS rounds he
http://www.ctctools.biz/servlet/the-...D-STEEL/Detail


The vendor told me you need a 5 ton press. I'll watch PSI when i run
to know actual force.

Karl

On Fri, 20 Sep 2013 12:18:22 -0500, Karl Townsend wrote:
....
found long HSS rounds he
http://www.ctctools.biz/servlet/the-...D-STEEL/Detail

The vendor told me you need a 5 ton press. I'll watch PSI when i run
to know actual force.

As a matter of curiosity, will you use a 9mm / .3543" push rod (to
rifle the 9mm barrel) or go with something a little smaller, like
8.9 mm / .3504" or 8.5mm / .3346" ?

--
jiw

On Fri, 20 Sep 2013 17:38:53 +0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Sep 2013 12:18:22 -0500, Karl Townsend wrote:
...
found long HSS rounds he
http://www.ctctools.biz/servlet/the-...D-STEEL/Detail

The vendor told me you need a 5 ton press. I'll watch PSI when i run
to know actual force.

As a matter of curiosity, will you use a 9mm / .3543" push rod (to
rifle the 9mm barrel) or go with something a little smaller, like
8.9 mm / .3504" or 8.5mm / .3346" ?

I went 8.5mm, almost went 11/32 then decided a couple thou clearance
might not be enough, not sure what ruff ID the button leaves before
honing

On Thu, 19 Sep 2013 08:49:21 -0700 (PDT), PCS
wrote:

On Thursday, September 19, 2013 9:00:34 AM UTC-4, Karl Townsend wrote:

Thanks for the carbide lead. A push button was in my (super cheapo)

price range.





I'm going to modify a turret plate with a 1.375 square by real long

gundrill tool holder. Drill 12", back up and stop. Loosen holder,

slide ahead, restart drilling. I'd use a manual lathe but the hardinge

has a nice flood coolant setup and complete enclosure.



Karl

Ahhh, very clever that.

I would think your push bar problem is less about compression and more about bowing.
An uneven force will cock the button off center for a bad result...as far as I understand it.

I've heard of using hydraulic force to push a button through a (threaded) barrel.
I wonder if some type of a grease gun would have enough pressure?

Will look forward to updates on your progress.

I am still hoping to make a reproduction rifled barrel for my .177 air pistol some day.

Ah...I do have a gun drill available....shrug

Gunner

"The socialist movement takes great pains to circulate frequently new labels for its ideally constructed state.
Each worn-out label is replaced by another which raises hopes of an ultimate solution of the insoluble basic
problem of Socialism, until it becomes obvious that nothing has been changed but the name.
The most recent slogan is "State Capitalism."[Fascism] It is not commonly realized that this covers nothing more
than what used to be called Planned Economy and State Socialism, and that State Capitalism, Planned Economy,
and State Socialism diverge only in non-essentials from the "classic" ideal of egalitarian Socialism. - Ludwig von Mises (1922)

On Fri, 20 Sep 2013 12:18:22 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:


follow up

found long HSS rounds he
http://www.ctctools.biz/servlet/the-...D-STEEL/Detail


The vendor told me you need a 5 ton press. I'll watch PSI when i run
to know actual force.

Karl
How are you planning to avoid any bowing of the pusher rod? How are
you going to make sure the pusher travels perfectly in line with the
barrel bore at the beginning of the pushing? I have done a lot of work
on a hydraulic press and have seen what happens when stuff comes out
of the press or breaks and then comes out of the press. I think if I
wanted to do what you are doing I would put the HSS rod into a
cylinder and thread the barrel into one end of the cylinder. I would
then seal the cylinder holding the pusher with a seal incorporated
into a piston, thread a fitting into the cylinder portion above the
piston and use oil and a port-a-power pump, or even a grease gun
filled with thin grease, to force the pusher into the barrel. Just my
two cents. Let us know how it works.
Eric

I plan to use a press brake bottom die as a "V" block. Then two
barrels clamped and held straight. Top one is just scrap for a guide.
bottom of top barrel bored out just a bit to hold the button. Put
button in bottom of top barrel and the long HSS push rod. Clamp it all
together in line. Press a bit, retract, put in short piece of HSS -
maybe 4", press a bit, put in another HSS stick, repeat.

Karl

Karl Townsend wrote:

I plan to use a press brake bottom die as a "V" block. Then two
barrels clamped and held straight. Top one is just scrap for a guide.
bottom of top barrel bored out just a bit to hold the button. Put
button in bottom of top barrel and the long HSS push rod. Clamp it all
together in line. Press a bit, retract, put in short piece of HSS -
maybe 4", press a bit, put in another HSS stick, repeat.

Karl

How will you ensure the button rotates at the proper twist rate? I know
it should self rotate, but with all that force pressing on the back
there had better be some good lube to let it turn.

On Sat, 21 Sep 2013 17:24:20 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Karl Townsend wrote:

I plan to use a press brake bottom die as a "V" block. Then two
barrels clamped and held straight. Top one is just scrap for a guide.
bottom of top barrel bored out just a bit to hold the button. Put
button in bottom of top barrel and the long HSS push rod. Clamp it all
together in line. Press a bit, retract, put in short piece of HSS -
maybe 4", press a bit, put in another HSS stick, repeat.

Karl

How will you ensure the button rotates at the proper twist rate? I know
it should self rotate, but with all that force pressing on the back
there had better be some good lube to let it turn.

The head of the pusher needs to be ground to 0.25" and there's a
special pressing lube to keep it flooded in. Other than that, its on
its own.

I'll know a lot more about this after doing it. The author of the
book "Rifling Machines and Methods", Cliff LaBounty, contacted me
today with suggestions. Looks like he's willing to mentor me. And he'd
like to see how folks have followed his work for a possible book
addition.

Karl

On Sat, 21 Sep 2013 18:07:14 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

On Sat, 21 Sep 2013 17:24:20 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Karl Townsend wrote:

I plan to use a press brake bottom die as a "V" block. Then two
barrels clamped and held straight. Top one is just scrap for a guide.
bottom of top barrel bored out just a bit to hold the button. Put
button in bottom of top barrel and the long HSS push rod. Clamp it all
together in line. Press a bit, retract, put in short piece of HSS -
maybe 4", press a bit, put in another HSS stick, repeat.

Interesting. Post pics when you get it all set up, please.


How will you ensure the button rotates at the proper twist rate? I know
it should self rotate, but with all that force pressing on the back
there had better be some good lube to let it turn.

The head of the pusher needs to be ground to 0.25" and there's a
special pressing lube to keep it flooded in. Other than that, its on
its own.

The cutter heads are probably angled to obtain the proper twist,
right? (SWAG)


I'll know a lot more about this after doing it. The author of the
book "Rifling Machines and Methods", Cliff LaBounty, contacted me
today with suggestions. Looks like he's willing to mentor me. And he'd
like to see how folks have followed his work for a possible book
addition.

Hey, that's cool. As an author on the subject, he sounds like a good
mentor for the project. Congrats.


--
Try not to become a man of success but
rather try to become a man of value.
--Albert Einstein

On Saturday, September 21, 2013 7:07:14 PM UTC-4, Karl Townsend wrote:
On Sat, 21 Sep 2013 17:24:20 -0500, "Pete C."

wrote:





Karl Townsend wrote:



I plan to use a press brake bottom die as a "V" block. Then two

barrels clamped and held straight. Top one is just scrap for a guide.

bottom of top barrel bored out just a bit to hold the button. Put

button in bottom of top barrel and the long HSS push rod. Clamp it all

together in line. Press a bit, retract, put in short piece of HSS -

maybe 4", press a bit, put in another HSS stick, repeat.



Karl



How will you ensure the button rotates at the proper twist rate? I know

it should self rotate, but with all that force pressing on the back

there had better be some good lube to let it turn.



The head of the pusher needs to be ground to 0.25" and there's a

special pressing lube to keep it flooded in. Other than that, its on

its own.

does that 0.25" head fit into a socket on the button? Is there some sort of thrust bearing?

I have to say, this is a process totally foreign to me, but I have long wondered about it. I also pretty surprised that nobody in this group seems to have tackled this before. Lots of gunsmithing going on, but this is the first barrel rifling I can remember.

I'll know a lot more about this after doing it.

So will the rest of us, I hope. Really adventurous project. It'll also be interesting to hear how well it shoots.

The author of the

book "Rifling Machines and Methods", Cliff LaBounty, contacted me

today with suggestions. Looks like he's willing to mentor me. And he'd

like to see how folks have followed his work for a possible book

addition.

That is truly excellent. How did he find you? Did he read about it here? Or did you find him? It's always good to have a mentor, and the mentor can learn a lot from you, too.




Karl

On Saturday, September 21, 2013 4:24:20 PM UTC-6, Pete C. wrote:
Karl Townsend wrote: I plan to use a press brake bottom die as a "V" block. Then two barrels clamped and held straight. Top one is just scrap for a guide. bottom of top barrel bored out just a bit to hold the button.. Put button in bottom of top barrel and the long HSS push rod. Clamp it all together in line. Press a bit, retract, put in short piece of HSS - maybe 4", press a bit, put in another HSS stick, repeat. Karl How will you ensure the button rotates at the proper twist rate? I know it should self rotate, but with all that force pressing on the back there had better be some good lube to let it turn.

The book I've got on setting up for button rifling had the button ground for the proper lead, it was PULLED, not pushed, and the rod that it was attached to had a thrust bearing at the ram end so the works rotated at the button's lead rate. A universal cutter grinder with diamond wheels was used for making the buttons, then the button was polished afterwards with finer and finer grades of diamond lapping compound. If the joint to the pulling rod broke halfway through the barrel, the barrel blank got bandsawed apart to recover the button.

If I were to go into the barrel supplying business, it might be worth my time to create all the gubbins to do button rifling. A sine-bar machine is a whole lot more flexible as far as what twist rates can be done on it, leaves a lot less stress in the barrel, but is a whole lot slower. For my barrel needs, it's just a lot cheaper and easier to buy a premium blank from a name outfit that already has the skill than to make one on my own, satisfying though that might be. These days, I only machine up what I can't buy. Life's just not long enough to make everything from scratch.

Stan

hello how i can 9mm dying for my gun ?

Ed, things are a bit easier today.

The big job is gundrilling. I turned my Hardinge CHNC into a gun drill
with the use of a car wash high pressure pump and a special fixture to
hold the gun drill.

Push rifling buttons are available on eBay for about $200. I used my
30 ton hydraulic press with an air driven enerpac to push the button
right through.

I made a few just to prove I can.

Still, Green Mountain sells barrel blanks VERY inexpensively. This is
by far the best way to go for the home weapons builder.

Karl

On Thu, 07 May 2015 19:08:00 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:


Ed, things are a bit easier today.

The big job is gundrilling. I turned my Hardinge CHNC into a gun drill
with the use of a car wash high pressure pump and a special fixture to
hold the gun drill.

Oh, yeah. That's the hard part.


Push rifling buttons are available on eBay for about $200. I used my
30 ton hydraulic press with an air driven enerpac to push the button
right through.

I made a few just to prove I can.

Ah, as I said, if you have a press and a spare $200 for a
tool...what's the cost of a gun barrel today?

Still, Green Mountain sells barrel blanks VERY inexpensively. This is
by far the best way to go for the home weapons builder.

You bet. It's a great exercise and a good learning experience. But
after you've done it once (or enough to prove to yourself that you can
do it), it's a lot like cutting your own nails.

I've done that, too. Once. d8-)


Karl

--
Ed Huntress

On Thursday, September 19, 2013 at 10:07:56 AM UTC-7, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Thu, 19 Sep 2013 08:49:21 -0700 (PDT), PCS
wrote:

I would think your push bar problem is less about compression and more about bowing.

It's so constrained by the bore that there would be no significant
bowing.

I'd think that it's important for the mating faces to match well and
to be most of the bore diameter.

So, does this mean your pushrod can be a stack of dowel pins, all ground flat on the
ends? The case-hardening of a dowel pin makes good burst (compressive) strength,
and a dozen two-inch pins doesn't break the piggy bank.

I've heard of using hydraulic force to push a button through a (threaded) barrel.
I wonder if some type of a grease gun would have enough pressure?

Hydraulics might work, but that just makes this BIG project. Easily available
hand pumps will do 10kpsi, fluids will go to 50-100 kpsi (with custom pumps).
If the pushrod is a piston, 0.3" diameter, it only gets 900 lbs force with
10kpsi.

On Fri, 8 May 2015 13:27:18 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd
wrote:

On Thursday, September 19, 2013 at 10:07:56 AM UTC-7, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Thu, 19 Sep 2013 08:49:21 -0700 (PDT), PCS
wrote:

I would think your push bar problem is less about compression and more about bowing.

It's so constrained by the bore that there would be no significant
bowing.

I'd think that it's important for the mating faces to match well and
to be most of the bore diameter.

So, does this mean your pushrod can be a stack of dowel pins, all ground flat on the
ends? The case-hardening of a dowel pin makes good burst (compressive) strength,
and a dozen two-inch pins doesn't break the piggy bank.

I've heard of using hydraulic force to push a button through a (threaded) barrel.
I wonder if some type of a grease gun would have enough pressure?

Hydraulics might work, but that just makes this BIG project. Easily available
hand pumps will do 10kpsi, fluids will go to 50-100 kpsi (with custom pumps).
If the pushrod is a piston, 0.3" diameter, it only gets 900 lbs force with
10kpsi.

PUSHING makes it a big project. Pulling makes it much easier.

There's no reason you can't pull a button, although the tools
generally are made for pushing. Cutting tools usually are made for
pulling.

If you can lap a barrel, button rifling doesn't hold any great
advantage. It's a production technique. It allows you to use a lower
grade of steel, because it work-hardens, and it leaves a cleaner bore
that needs less finishing.

But in the end, either one will work.

--
Ed Huntress

On Fri, 08 May 2015 10:15:20 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

Much deleted


Re small bore, just before I left Shreveport I built a .17 cal
(smokeless) wildcat rifle. I can't for the life of me remember what
the cartridge was based on but it was a rimmed case necked down and
fire-formed. I got a barrel from Douglas and built it up on a small
Martini ,"Cadet" I think, action put really good wood on it and was
real proud of it... Beautiful little gun and 3,000+ FPS loads, and it
was a real tack driver... for the first two, maybe three, shots but I
could never could shoot a 5 shot group that I was willing to show
anyone :-)

Ah, a man after my own heart on rifles. I once hand-made a reamer for
my own wldcat. That was before I knew much about them. It's a good
thing I never built the rifle, because it probably would have put my
eye out. g (It was a .32 S&W Long pistol cartridge necked down to
.20 cal. I have a replica Farquharsen action on which I was going to
build it.) That cartridge was too thin for that kind of use. Maybe a
.32 H&R Magnum cut down...nah, not in NJ. It ain't worth the trouble.)

We could talk about Martinis for hours, but we don't have hours.
Gunner has my last Martini action -- a full-size Martini that was
modified by and for the British Miniature Rifle Clubs. When the Brits
decided they didn't want rifles around, Navy Arms in NJ bought cases
of them. They let me scrounge through the piles. Most of them were
miserable little firesticks and I'd be embarrassed to own, but I found
a rimfire Model 12 target rifle among the piles, and bought it for a
friend in California who Jon Anderson used to know, online. It was in
great shape and I got it for $125. It was a steal.

Anyway, Cadets are as rare as hen's teeth these days. They were
training rifles for Australian cadets, and they fired a unique
centerfire cartridge, the .310 Cadet. They're all but gone on the US
market. If Jon Anderson could find a stash of them left somewhere in
Australia, he could probably retire on what they would sell for in the
US.

Most of the firearms I worked with seem to be gone forever. A good
friend had a 22-Krag built on a high wall action - beautiful gun but a
miserable shooter as the 22-Krag was a full sized 30-40 Krag case
necked down to .22 cal. and while it could produce some spectacular
velocities it wasn't much in the way of accuracy :-)

Military surplus was cheap, really, cheap. One year I bought a dozen
or so small ring mauser rifles for $5 each in a case. Bought a case of
3 groove springfield (probably) barrels for a dollar each. Rethreaded
the barrels to fit the mauser actions and chambered them for .308 and
put some cheap Fagen stocks on them and sold them for "deer rifles"
one year. They were so popular that we had people driving over from
Texas to buy them :-)

Then I retired and went to work overseas and never went back :-) and
firearms became a very minor consideration, but I do occasionally pick
up a "gun magazine" to read. But the gun world, or at least the gun
world portrayed in the magazines, seems to be a far distant world from
the one I knew. They all now seem to be obsessed with Assault rifles
and, what must be, very inaccurate pistols.

Automatic, or full automatic, rifles certainly do have a place in
military use but for civilian use I am doubtful whether they are
anything other then a boost to the ego of, what appear to be, people
of very low self-esteem - I'm thinking of youtube postings with titles
like "See Me Shoot My Gun".

This assumes, of course, that the Barbarian Hordes are not at the
gate. But it appears that they are not and countries who might be
inclined to "take over" seem to have discovered that "economic
warfare" is a far cheaper and more effective method of gaining world
dominance.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 09 May 2015 08:59:05 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Fri, 08 May 2015 10:15:20 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

Much deleted


Re small bore, just before I left Shreveport I built a .17 cal
(smokeless) wildcat rifle. I can't for the life of me remember what
the cartridge was based on but it was a rimmed case necked down and
fire-formed. I got a barrel from Douglas and built it up on a small
Martini ,"Cadet" I think, action put really good wood on it and was
real proud of it... Beautiful little gun and 3,000+ FPS loads, and it
was a real tack driver... for the first two, maybe three, shots but I
could never could shoot a 5 shot group that I was willing to show
anyone :-)

Ah, a man after my own heart on rifles. I once hand-made a reamer for
my own wldcat. That was before I knew much about them. It's a good
thing I never built the rifle, because it probably would have put my
eye out. g (It was a .32 S&W Long pistol cartridge necked down to
.20 cal. I have a replica Farquharsen action on which I was going to
build it.) That cartridge was too thin for that kind of use. Maybe a
.32 H&R Magnum cut down...nah, not in NJ. It ain't worth the trouble.)

We could talk about Martinis for hours, but we don't have hours.
Gunner has my last Martini action -- a full-size Martini that was
modified by and for the British Miniature Rifle Clubs. When the Brits
decided they didn't want rifles around, Navy Arms in NJ bought cases
of them. They let me scrounge through the piles. Most of them were
miserable little firesticks and I'd be embarrassed to own, but I found
a rimfire Model 12 target rifle among the piles, and bought it for a
friend in California who Jon Anderson used to know, online. It was in
great shape and I got it for $125. It was a steal.

Anyway, Cadets are as rare as hen's teeth these days. They were
training rifles for Australian cadets, and they fired a unique
centerfire cartridge, the .310 Cadet. They're all but gone on the US
market. If Jon Anderson could find a stash of them left somewhere in
Australia, he could probably retire on what they would sell for in the
US.

Most of the firearms I worked with seem to be gone forever. A good
friend had a 22-Krag built on a high wall action - beautiful gun but a
miserable shooter as the 22-Krag was a full sized 30-40 Krag case
necked down to .22 cal. and while it could produce some spectacular
velocities it wasn't much in the way of accuracy :-)

Military surplus was cheap, really, cheap. One year I bought a dozen
or so small ring mauser rifles for $5 each in a case. Bought a case of
3 groove springfield (probably) barrels for a dollar each. Rethreaded
the barrels to fit the mauser actions and chambered them for .308 and
put some cheap Fagen stocks on them and sold them for "deer rifles"
one year. They were so popular that we had people driving over from
Texas to buy them :-)

Then I retired and went to work overseas and never went back :-) and
firearms became a very minor consideration, but I do occasionally pick
up a "gun magazine" to read. But the gun world, or at least the gun
world portrayed in the magazines, seems to be a far distant world from
the one I knew. They all now seem to be obsessed with Assault rifles
and, what must be, very inaccurate pistols.

Automatic, or full automatic, rifles certainly do have a place in
military use but for civilian use I am doubtful whether they are
anything other then a boost to the ego of, what appear to be, people
of very low self-esteem - I'm thinking of youtube postings with titles
like "See Me Shoot My Gun".

This assumes, of course, that the Barbarian Hordes are not at the
gate. But it appears that they are not and countries who might be
inclined to "take over" seem to have discovered that "economic
warfare" is a far cheaper and more effective method of gaining world
dominance.

John, I couldn't have said it better. When the covers of _American
Rifleman_ became indistinguishable from the covers of _Soldier of
Fortune_, I figured it was time to quit. I stopped playing Army when I
was about 10 years old.

The NRA still sends me emails, and a recent one made me do a real
double-take:

http://graphics.nra.org/online_store/Email/4-30-15.html

A bucket list, with real buckets. "Meat Matters," they say. My meat
sure matters to me. g

And, for a mere $44.95, you can have your very own polished-brass
Hudson's Bay Firestarting kit, a piece of flint and a wad of charred
cloth -- for when the invading hordes soak your matches with water
pistols, I guess:

http://tinyurl.com/qfez4lc

Ain't it pretty? That's for survivalists who buy their camo on Rodeo
Drive, I suppose.

The NRA has gone to hell in a handbasket.

--
Ed Huntress