A shout-out for a great service:

If you need full-custom electronics in your new tool, you know how hard
it is to find the ICs you need in DIP packages. Everything now comes in
"Small Outline" packages -- or smaller! I was getting pretty frustrated
trying to solder 0.8mm-pitch ICs, and don't have the setup to glue down
really small stuff (and don't even _talk_ about the .5mm TSOPs!). Not
even the toaster oven method is safe on all chips like hall-effect
sensors... fwiw.

Back in January, I found an outfit that makes "breakout boards" for every
conceivable "small outline" and "surface mount" packaged IC you can name,
adapting them to standard DIP outlines for prototyping. They have
hundreds of styles in stock, fitting tens of thousands of ICs. And
they're inexpensive


They not only sell the boards, but for a little more, they'll order your
parts from DigiKey, solder them on the boards, put pins on the board so
you can plug it into your protoboard, and ship it via any method you
want.

I ordered some boards populated with teensy little analog multiplexor
chips with leads so close they looked like hair, back in January... about
4pm on that day. The next morning, they shipped! They had gotten the
parts from DigiKey, installed them, and shipped the goods in about 14
hours!

It's a great way to work with those little chips that eventually will go
on your finished pcb without having to track down DIP versions (which
might not even exist!).

They are, www.proto-advantage.com -- they're Canadian, and I think they
ship pretty much everywhere.

In order to get your stuff installed, you first must locate your part
from DigiKey, and identify what "package outline" it uses. Then you go
on proto-advantage's site, and look up the breakout board for that
package and pin count. When you go to order the breakout board, you'll
get a chance to enter your DigiKey part number, and have THEM order and
install it for you. If you have any questions, they are quick and
helpful with email replies.

I was getting to the point where I could no longer solder those fine-
pitch ICs (Heck! I couldn't even SEE 'em anymore). Now I 'can'. G

Lloyd

On Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:23:51 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

A shout-out for a great service:

If you need full-custom electronics in your new tool, you know how hard
it is to find the ICs you need in DIP packages. Everything now comes in
"Small Outline" packages -- or smaller! I was getting pretty
frustrated trying to solder 0.8mm-pitch ICs, and don't have the setup to
glue down really small stuff (and don't even _talk_ about the .5mm
TSOPs!). Not even the toaster oven method is safe on all chips like
hall-effect sensors... fwiw.

Back in January, I found an outfit that makes "breakout boards" for
every conceivable "small outline" and "surface mount" packaged IC you
can name, adapting them to standard DIP outlines for prototyping. They
have hundreds of styles in stock, fitting tens of thousands of ICs. And
they're inexpensive


They not only sell the boards, but for a little more, they'll order your
parts from DigiKey, solder them on the boards, put pins on the board so
you can plug it into your protoboard, and ship it via any method you
want.

I ordered some boards populated with teensy little analog multiplexor
chips with leads so close they looked like hair, back in January...
about 4pm on that day. The next morning, they shipped! They had gotten
the parts from DigiKey, installed them, and shipped the goods in about
14 hours!

It's a great way to work with those little chips that eventually will go
on your finished pcb without having to track down DIP versions (which
might not even exist!).

They are, www.proto-advantage.com -- they're Canadian, and I think they
ship pretty much everywhere.

In order to get your stuff installed, you first must locate your part
from DigiKey, and identify what "package outline" it uses. Then you go
on proto-advantage's site, and look up the breakout board for that
package and pin count. When you go to order the breakout board, you'll
get a chance to enter your DigiKey part number, and have THEM order and
install it for you. If you have any questions, they are quick and
helpful with email replies.

I was getting to the point where I could no longer solder those fine-
pitch ICs (Heck! I couldn't even SEE 'em anymore). Now I 'can'. G

If you haven't used an assembly microscope, try it. It makes all the
difference in the world.

--
My liberal friends think I'm a conservative kook.
My conservative friends think I'm a liberal kook.
Why am I not happy that they have found common ground?

Tim Wescott, Communications, Control, Circuits & Software
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Tim Wescott fired this volley in news:xtednYaL-
:

If you haven't used an assembly microscope, try it. It makes all the
difference in the world.

I have one. That's not the problem. I don't have the setup to do masked
infra-red soldering on sensitive chips. I can do the 'toaster' thing
with no problem (proto-advantage sells solder-paste masks, too), but
can't manage the delicate stuff.

When it comes time to actually populate a finished PCB, I farm that out
for cheap, but for prototyping, this is easy, quick, and guaranteed.

Lloyd

Tim Wescott wrote:

On Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:23:51 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

A shout-out for a great service:

If you need full-custom electronics in your new tool, you know how hard
it is to find the ICs you need in DIP packages. Everything now comes in
"Small Outline" packages -- or smaller! I was getting pretty
frustrated trying to solder 0.8mm-pitch ICs, and don't have the setup to
glue down really small stuff (and don't even _talk_ about the .5mm
TSOPs!). Not even the toaster oven method is safe on all chips like
hall-effect sensors... fwiw.

Back in January, I found an outfit that makes "breakout boards" for
every conceivable "small outline" and "surface mount" packaged IC you
can name, adapting them to standard DIP outlines for prototyping. They
have hundreds of styles in stock, fitting tens of thousands of ICs. And
they're inexpensive


They not only sell the boards, but for a little more, they'll order your
parts from DigiKey, solder them on the boards, put pins on the board so
you can plug it into your protoboard, and ship it via any method you
want.

I ordered some boards populated with teensy little analog multiplexor
chips with leads so close they looked like hair, back in January...
about 4pm on that day. The next morning, they shipped! They had gotten
the parts from DigiKey, installed them, and shipped the goods in about
14 hours!

It's a great way to work with those little chips that eventually will go
on your finished pcb without having to track down DIP versions (which
might not even exist!).

They are, www.proto-advantage.com -- they're Canadian, and I think they
ship pretty much everywhere.

In order to get your stuff installed, you first must locate your part
from DigiKey, and identify what "package outline" it uses. Then you go
on proto-advantage's site, and look up the breakout board for that
package and pin count. When you go to order the breakout board, you'll
get a chance to enter your DigiKey part number, and have THEM order and
install it for you. If you have any questions, they are quick and
helpful with email replies.

I was getting to the point where I could no longer solder those fine-
pitch ICs (Heck! I couldn't even SEE 'em anymore). Now I 'can'. G

If you haven't used an assembly microscope, try it. It makes all the
difference in the world.

Even a decent ring lighted magnifier lamp is a huge help, and a lot
cheaper.

"Pete C." fired this volley in news:5180122c$0
:

Even a decent ring lighted magnifier lamp is a huge help, and a lot
cheaper.

I'm sorry, but I have to ask: Do you guys miss the point a lot at home?

I'm talking about _prototyping_, not making a finished PCB.

If I want to jump these little chips up on an ACE board to see who they
are, would I _actually_ go to the trouble of making a full-up PCB just to
do protyping work?

The PCB comes _after_ the hand-built prototype -- AFTER you're sure it
works the way you want.

Geesh! Doesn't anybody design their own circuitry, or are you all "kit"
guys?

(harumph!)
Lloyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote:

"Pete C." fired this volley in news:5180122c$0
:

Even a decent ring lighted magnifier lamp is a huge help, and a lot
cheaper.

I'm sorry, but I have to ask: Do you guys miss the point a lot at home?

I'm talking about _prototyping_, not making a finished PCB.

If I want to jump these little chips up on an ACE board to see who they
are, would I _actually_ go to the trouble of making a full-up PCB just to
do protyping work?

The PCB comes _after_ the hand-built prototype -- AFTER you're sure it
works the way you want.

Geesh! Doesn't anybody design their own circuitry, or are you all "kit"
guys?

(harumph!)
Lloyd

We don't (yet) pay others to solder the chips onto the prototype adapter
boards. Also some folks do the PCB milling rapid prototyping and don't
use adapter boards.

"Pete C." fired this volley in news:51802306$0
:

We don't (yet) pay others to solder the chips onto the prototype
adapter
boards. Also some folks do the PCB milling rapid prototyping and don't
use adapter boards.

I see... I suggest you try that with 0.5mm pitch (on-center) TSOPs, and
see how it works.

Mill-prototyping on FR-4 breaks down around 30 mils o/c. The runs start
lifting, because the epoxy isn't strong enough to support the lateral
forces of the milling.

(I do that, too. 'have the CAD. 'have the CAM. 'have the mill. 'have
small-tipped carbide Vee cutters.)

It's apparent that you're "aware that people do it", but never have.

'least, that is the way I see it.

Lloyd

On Tue, 30 Apr 2013 14:29:18 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

"Pete C." fired this volley in news:5180122c$0
:

Even a decent ring lighted magnifier lamp is a huge help, and a lot
cheaper.

I'm sorry, but I have to ask: Do you guys miss the point a lot at home?

I'm talking about _prototyping_, not making a finished PCB.

If I want to jump these little chips up on an ACE board to see who they
are, would I _actually_ go to the trouble of making a full-up PCB just to
do protyping work?

The PCB comes _after_ the hand-built prototype -- AFTER you're sure it
works the way you want.

Geesh! Doesn't anybody design their own circuitry, or are you all "kit"
guys?

(harumph!)
Lloyd


These days it often makes sense to go straight to a PCB. If it doesn't
work right you change the C code or the VHDL. ;-)

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote:

"Pete C." fired this volley in news:51802306$0
:

We don't (yet) pay others to solder the chips onto the prototype
adapter
boards. Also some folks do the PCB milling rapid prototyping and don't
use adapter boards.

I see... I suggest you try that with 0.5mm pitch (on-center) TSOPs, and
see how it works.

Yea, I have, yea, it's a pain. http://wpnet.us/SMT.jpg


Mill-prototyping on FR-4 breaks down around 30 mils o/c. The runs start
lifting, because the epoxy isn't strong enough to support the lateral
forces of the milling.

(I do that, too. 'have the CAD. 'have the CAM. 'have the mill. 'have
small-tipped carbide Vee cutters.)

It's apparent that you're "aware that people do it", but never have.

'least, that is the way I see it.

I haven't tried the PCB milling yet, since I haven't done a lot of
electronics projects of late. The last one I looked at I was just going
to farm out to a PCB house for prototype boards, but that project didn't
go through.

"Pete C." fired this volley in news:51802f4b$0
:

Yea, I have, yea, it's a pain. http://wpnet.us/SMT.jpg

yeah, it's a pain just soldering them -- but I was referring to trying to
MILL a PCB with 0.5mm pitch devices. It's just not worth it.

Despite the many objections, if you actually want to build a 'library' of
parts for prototyping, the extra buck or two per chip to have them
installed on the carriers is a nice way to proceed. If you want the
board "fully assembled" (headers, etc), it's more expensive; but not
prohibitively, at least at what my time and failures are worth.

LLoyd

I use a 5 diopter glass fluorescent ring magnifier and it's difficult to see
around the 9-1/2" overall diameter of the shade/housing.

Seeing detail is a lot easier, but reaching for something nearby is still
problematic, at least for me.

I was just examining an early model of a battery pack charger from about
2002 which had a considerable amount of wire-wrapping gage wire jumpers all
over the place, and the same wire was even used to tack leads onto surface
mount devices which were then tacked onto other component terminals.. good
grief.
This charger was for the latest & greatest military tactical xenon arc lamp
flashlight back then.
I wouldn't have been able to do that assembly work since my 20s and maybe
into my 30s.

The same board that was being used to power the flashlight was heavily
modified to act as a separate external accessory charger board.

--
WB
..........


"Pete C." wrote in message
...

Tim Wescott wrote:

If you haven't used an assembly microscope, try it. It makes all the
difference in the world.

Even a decent ring lighted magnifier lamp is a huge help, and a lot
cheaper.

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
.70...

Geesh! Doesn't anybody design their own circuitry, or are you all
"kit"
guys?

(harumph!)
Lloyd

I've been hand-soldering circuits that I had often designed since the
70's, using skywiring, wire-wrap, T-Tech mechanically engraved boards
and Mil-Spec multilayer PCBs.

An Optivisor with the 14" lens works best for me, partly because
unlike the microscope or video screen magnifier it let me roll the
board around to see the solder reflection or lack of it and the
meniscus at the end of a properly bonded flat pack lead from several
angles. I used higher magnification to inspect those 0.5mm pitch leads
that are common in digital radios and the Segway.

If you think they are tiny and difficult try bare ICs. I've spliced
broken wirebonds with silver-filled epoxy.
http://www.micromanipulator.com/prod...ndex.php?cat=7

jsw

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...

Mill-prototyping on FR-4 breaks down around 30 mils o/c. The runs
start
lifting, because the epoxy isn't strong enough to support the
lateral
forces of the milling.

(I do that, too. 'have the CAD. 'have the CAM. 'have the mill.
'have
small-tipped carbide Vee cutters.)

Lloyd

Try mechanically-bonded Duroid.
http://www.rogerscorp.com/acm/produc...Laminates.aspx

jsw

On Tue, 30 Apr 2013 16:29:34 -0400, Spehro Pefhany
wrote:

BIG SNIP


These days it often makes sense to go straight to a PCB. If it doesn't
work right you change the C code or the VHDL. ;-)


Hey Speff,

English PLEASE !!1 What are these terms??? OK..PCB I got, but
C-code? VHDL ????

Brian Lawson ( really still back at DTL stuff)

and ........ aaaacchooooo. !!!!! Bought a cold at NAMES I think.

Brian Lawson wrote:

On Tue, 30 Apr 2013 16:29:34 -0400, Spehro Pefhany
wrote:

BIG SNIP


These days it often makes sense to go straight to a PCB. If it doesn't
work right you change the C code or the VHDL. ;-)

Hey Speff,

English PLEASE !!1 What are these terms??? OK..PCB I got, but
C-code? VHDL ????

I believe

C code = C programming language (processors)
VHDL = Virtual Hardware Descriptor Language (programmable gate arrays
and more advanced programmable hardware)

On Tue, 30 Apr 2013 13:49:15 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Tim Wescott wrote:

On Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:23:51 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

A shout-out for a great service:

If you need full-custom electronics in your new tool, you know how hard
it is to find the ICs you need in DIP packages. Everything now comes in
"Small Outline" packages -- or smaller! I was getting pretty
frustrated trying to solder 0.8mm-pitch ICs, and don't have the setup to
glue down really small stuff (and don't even _talk_ about the .5mm
TSOPs!). Not even the toaster oven method is safe on all chips like
hall-effect sensors... fwiw.

Back in January, I found an outfit that makes "breakout boards" for
every conceivable "small outline" and "surface mount" packaged IC you
can name, adapting them to standard DIP outlines for prototyping. They
have hundreds of styles in stock, fitting tens of thousands of ICs. And
they're inexpensive


They not only sell the boards, but for a little more, they'll order your
parts from DigiKey, solder them on the boards, put pins on the board so
you can plug it into your protoboard, and ship it via any method you
want.

I ordered some boards populated with teensy little analog multiplexor
chips with leads so close they looked like hair, back in January...
about 4pm on that day. The next morning, they shipped! They had gotten
the parts from DigiKey, installed them, and shipped the goods in about
14 hours!

It's a great way to work with those little chips that eventually will go
on your finished pcb without having to track down DIP versions (which
might not even exist!).

They are, www.proto-advantage.com -- they're Canadian, and I think they
ship pretty much everywhere.

In order to get your stuff installed, you first must locate your part
from DigiKey, and identify what "package outline" it uses. Then you go
on proto-advantage's site, and look up the breakout board for that
package and pin count. When you go to order the breakout board, you'll
get a chance to enter your DigiKey part number, and have THEM order and
install it for you. If you have any questions, they are quick and
helpful with email replies.

I was getting to the point where I could no longer solder those fine-
pitch ICs (Heck! I couldn't even SEE 'em anymore). Now I 'can'. G

If you haven't used an assembly microscope, try it. It makes all the
difference in the world.

Even a decent ring lighted magnifier lamp is a huge help, and a lot
cheaper.

I have two aids I use. One is a Third Hand, a pair of movable
roa...um, alligator clips on ball-jointed arms and a 4" magnifying
glass, all on a weighted stand. http://tinyurl.com/bvlp8wv

The other is the ring-fluor mag lamp. I bought it for $30 at HF a
dozen years ago and it still works great. (They're up to $40 now,
Tim.) http://tinyurl.com/bomrc3b

--
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.
-- Sir Winston Churchill

On Tue, 30 Apr 2013 14:29:18 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

"Pete C." fired this volley in news:5180122c$0
:

Even a decent ring lighted magnifier lamp is a huge help, and a lot
cheaper.

I'm sorry, but I have to ask: Do you guys miss the point a lot at home?

I'm talking about _prototyping_, not making a finished PCB.

If I want to jump these little chips up on an ACE board to see who they
are, would I _actually_ go to the trouble of making a full-up PCB just to
do protyping work?

The PCB comes _after_ the hand-built prototype -- AFTER you're sure it
works the way you want.

Geesh! Doesn't anybody design their own circuitry, or are you all "kit"
guys?

(harumph!)
Lloyd

We younger solderless breadboarders still need diopter help, y'know.
Harumph, too!

--
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.
-- Sir Winston Churchill

Larry Jaques fired this volley in
:

I have two aids I use

Heh... I guess this whole thing has 'gone over the heads' of the group
(et. al.)

Guys, I was a HAM at 14 (de WA4ZEG, back when you had to know something,
AND the code), co-owner of a successful TV/electronics repair shop when I
was 16, and director of reasearch for a fairly large regional medical
electronics/computers company at age 32. For those of you who remember
them, I designed the Lt. Kernal hard disk system for Commodore 64/128
computers (back in the 80s). I'm 63 now.

I have not stopped designing and building custom PCBs and new circuits in
all that time -- not even for a week. I probably design more new boards
each year than all the rest of the regulars here, combined. And I have
all the tools and the skills and the instruments (scopes, meters, signal
generators, logic analyzers...), INCLUDING the equipment to do infrared
reflow soldering -- at standard ROHS thermal profiles, or with leaded
pastes.

I have a better binocular assembly microscope than I ever deserved
getting (got it in a bankruptcy sale). I have clamps, 'third hands',
micro-clips and manipulators, hemostats on swiveling bases... all the
stuff.

But none of the above equipment supplies a person with what's needed to
do 'masked' IR reflow, where the body of the chip may not be heated, only
the leads. (I know, you guys would put a germanium IR detector chip
through a wave soldering process... but I wouldn't)

And, NONE OF this discussion has been about building finished circuitry.
It's been about bench-top prototyping. Anyone who suggested milling a
custom board just to examine a prototype idea, or to explore a new chip's
functions is just weird, and wrong, and has WAY too much time to waste.

Since I need custom circuitry in every piece of automation I sell, I need
to do this a lot, and having to stop, design, and do isolation milling of
a different board every time I want to evaluate a chip would just be a
stupid waste of my time and my clients' money.

I thought (from all the past bragging) that there were some serious,
component-level designers here. I was clearly wrong about that.


I really regret trying to pass on what I thought would be a favor.
Please forget I mentioned it.


Lloyd

At least you probably won't forget you mentioned it.

Readers might've been impessed if the rant was posted to an electronics
design group/forum.

Most anyone has found things that make their life/job/hobby easier, but most
don't post 'em to a metalworking group, and expect anyone reading it to
express their deep felt gratitude as if you were handing out $100 bills.

Grip, reality.

--
WB
..........


"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
Larry Jaques fired this volley in
:

I have two aids I use

Heh... I guess this whole thing has 'gone over the heads' of the group
(et. al.)

Guys, I was a HAM at 14.. and in all this time you didn't realize you're
an asshole.

"Wild_Bill" fired this volley in
:

Grip, reality.


A machining group where many of the participants have, or are interested
in doing CNC conversions, and who make machinery (which often needs
custome electronics).

The whole statement was prefaced with "If you need full-custom
electronics in your new machine...".

Grip, reality.

You must be a purely water-powered, line shaft sort of machinist.

LLoyd

On 5/1/2013 7:16 AM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Larry Jaques fired this volley in
:

I have two aids I use

Heh... I guess this whole thing has 'gone over the heads' of the group
(et. al.)

Guys, I was a HAM at 14 (de WA4ZEG, back when you had to know something,
AND the code), co-owner of a successful TV/electronics repair shop when I
was 16, and director of reasearch for a fairly large regional medical
electronics/computers company at age 32. For those of you who remember
them, I designed the Lt. Kernal hard disk system for Commodore 64/128
computers (back in the 80s). I'm 63 now.

I have not stopped designing and building custom PCBs and new circuits in
all that time -- not even for a week. I probably design more new boards
each year than all the rest of the regulars here, combined. And I have
all the tools and the skills and the instruments (scopes, meters, signal
generators, logic analyzers...), INCLUDING the equipment to do infrared
reflow soldering -- at standard ROHS thermal profiles, or with leaded
pastes.

I have a better binocular assembly microscope than I ever deserved
getting (got it in a bankruptcy sale). I have clamps, 'third hands',
micro-clips and manipulators, hemostats on swiveling bases... all the
stuff.

But none of the above equipment supplies a person with what's needed to
do 'masked' IR reflow, where the body of the chip may not be heated, only
the leads. (I know, you guys would put a germanium IR detector chip
through a wave soldering process... but I wouldn't)

And, NONE OF this discussion has been about building finished circuitry.
It's been about bench-top prototyping. Anyone who suggested milling a
custom board just to examine a prototype idea, or to explore a new chip's
functions is just weird, and wrong, and has WAY too much time to waste.

Since I need custom circuitry in every piece of automation I sell, I need
to do this a lot, and having to stop, design, and do isolation milling of
a different board every time I want to evaluate a chip would just be a
stupid waste of my time and my clients' money.

I thought (from all the past bragging) that there were some serious,
component-level designers here. I was clearly wrong about that.


I really regret trying to pass on what I thought would be a favor.
Please forget I mentioned it.


Lloyd


Lloyd, Thank You for the tip and the personal(?sp) information. I am
not now nor have ever been a component-level designer, however as a Tech
I have worked with many Engineers, both Electronic and Mechanical.
I am now 66 yrs old and I understand what you are talking about.
The eyes do not work as well as they did when I was in my 20sand 30s.
The job was easier then due to better vision and 74xx DIPS and larger
discrete components.
Again thank You for taking the time to tell us what you have learned,
and stick around for you are knowledgeable and interesting.

Bob

On Tue, 30 Apr 2013 12:08:40 -0500, the renowned Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:23:51 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

A shout-out for a great service:

If you need full-custom electronics in your new tool, you know how hard
it is to find the ICs you need in DIP packages. Everything now comes in
"Small Outline" packages -- or smaller! I was getting pretty
frustrated trying to solder 0.8mm-pitch ICs, and don't have the setup to
glue down really small stuff (and don't even _talk_ about the .5mm
TSOPs!). Not even the toaster oven method is safe on all chips like
hall-effect sensors... fwiw.

Back in January, I found an outfit that makes "breakout boards" for
every conceivable "small outline" and "surface mount" packaged IC you
can name, adapting them to standard DIP outlines for prototyping. They
have hundreds of styles in stock, fitting tens of thousands of ICs. And
they're inexpensive


They not only sell the boards, but for a little more, they'll order your
parts from DigiKey, solder them on the boards, put pins on the board so
you can plug it into your protoboard, and ship it via any method you
want.

I ordered some boards populated with teensy little analog multiplexor
chips with leads so close they looked like hair, back in January...
about 4pm on that day. The next morning, they shipped! They had gotten
the parts from DigiKey, installed them, and shipped the goods in about
14 hours!

It's a great way to work with those little chips that eventually will go
on your finished pcb without having to track down DIP versions (which
might not even exist!).

They are, www.proto-advantage.com -- they're Canadian, and I think they
ship pretty much everywhere.

In order to get your stuff installed, you first must locate your part
from DigiKey, and identify what "package outline" it uses. Then you go
on proto-advantage's site, and look up the breakout board for that
package and pin count. When you go to order the breakout board, you'll
get a chance to enter your DigiKey part number, and have THEM order and
install it for you. If you have any questions, they are quick and
helpful with email replies.

I was getting to the point where I could no longer solder those fine-
pitch ICs (Heck! I couldn't even SEE 'em anymore). Now I 'can'. G

If you haven't used an assembly microscope, try it. It makes all the
difference in the world.

I can highly recommend the Leica A60, but it's not the sort of thing
that a hobbyist would likely want to spend their money on. Some of the
Chinese ones are also pretty decent and maybe half the price (even
less on eBay but I've not tried the really cheap ones).

Getting the breakout boards with chips soldered on them is a cute
trick, thanks!




Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

On Wed, 01 May 2013 06:16:06 -0500, the renowned "Lloyd E.
Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:



I really regret trying to pass on what I thought would be a favor.
Please forget I mentioned it.


Lloyd

Lloyd, thanks for griping about it ;-) I actually went back and read
your first post, which was indeed useful and new information (to me).

Another option that is sometimes available is to get an evaluation
board for the chip, often (not always) they are sold inexpensively,
come with the chip and support stuff (new stuff often needs lots of
supplies etc.) all populated. A lot of the TI ones are like $20.

There's a new Ethernet PHY chip I'd like to evaluate, unfortunately
the eval board for it is $400 and the eval board I have in hand for
the processor has the relevant pins hidden under the mounted chip and
going nowhere. I don't feel like trying to wire a 256-pin BGA up
manually, so a 6 layer fine pitch board is about the minimum. Or buy
another $400 eval board for the MCU, spend an hour or two hacking them
together and then I'm in $800 + a few hours and no further ahead with
making the first real board. 8-(

I have (electronic) test jigs and such like that are made using
evaluation boards.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Spehro Pefhany fired this volley in
news



Bob and Spehro,
Thanks. I figured there must be at least a few folks here for whom that
would be a worthwhile service.

These days, the line between what's 'machine' and what is 'electronics'
is so blurred that you cannot succeed well in the industry without using
some of both skills.

And, to the guy who's doing this sort of thing daily, it IS "like passing
out $100 bills".

I bill at over $100/hour. It would take me way more than an hour to
Eagle-up, isolation mill, and solder a board, just to evaluate or
prototype something. I figure that every time I pay them four or five
bucks to solder a chip for me, I'm earning at least a couple of Ben
Franklins.


LLoyd

On Wed, 01 May 2013 06:16:06 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Larry Jaques fired this volley in
:

I have two aids I use

Heh... I guess this whole thing has 'gone over the heads' of the group
(et. al.)

Since the message I saw and replied to had Gunner's (then Tim's)
headers up top, I guess it has.


Guys, I was a HAM at 14 (de WA4ZEG, back when you had to know something,
AND the code), co-owner of a successful TV/electronics repair shop when I
was 16, and director of reasearch for a fairly large regional medical
electronics/computers company at age 32. For those of you who remember
them, I designed the Lt. Kernal hard disk system for Commodore 64/128
computers (back in the 80s). I'm 63 now.

Cool.


I have not stopped designing and building custom PCBs and new circuits in
all that time -- not even for a week. I probably design more new boards
each year than all the rest of the regulars here, combined. And I have
all the tools and the skills and the instruments (scopes, meters, signal
generators, logic analyzers...), INCLUDING the equipment to do infrared
reflow soldering -- at standard ROHS thermal profiles, or with leaded
pastes.

I have a better binocular assembly microscope than I ever deserved
getting (got it in a bankruptcy sale). I have clamps, 'third hands',
micro-clips and manipulators, hemostats on swiveling bases... all the
stuff.

But none of the above equipment supplies a person with what's needed to
do 'masked' IR reflow, where the body of the chip may not be heated, only
the leads. (I know, you guys would put a germanium IR detector chip
through a wave soldering process... but I wouldn't)

Given the chance, neither would I.


And, NONE OF this discussion has been about building finished circuitry.
It's been about bench-top prototyping. Anyone who suggested milling a
custom board just to examine a prototype idea, or to explore a new chip's
functions is just weird, and wrong, and has WAY too much time to waste.

Since I need custom circuitry in every piece of automation I sell, I need
to do this a lot, and having to stop, design, and do isolation milling of
a different board every time I want to evaluate a chip would just be a
stupid waste of my time and my clients' money.

Not if you can talk the client into paying for it.


I thought (from all the past bragging) that there were some serious,
component-level designers here. I was clearly wrong about that.


I really regret trying to pass on what I thought would be a favor.
Please forget I mentioned it.

It's your fault, really. I mean, you're down here rubbing elbows with
us unwashed types...

--
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.
-- Sir Winston Churchill

Larry Jaques fired this volley in
:

a different board every time I want to evaluate a chip would just be a
stupid waste of my time and my clients' money.

Not if you can talk the client into paying for it.

It's still wasting their money, and doesn't earn me as much as if I'd had
a faster way. If I care about their outcomes, they usually care about
mine.

G
Lloyd

On Tue, 30 Apr 2013 12:24:36 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

Tim Wescott fired this volley in news:xtednYaL-
:

If you haven't used an assembly microscope, try it. It makes all the
difference in the world.

I have one. That's not the problem. I don't have the setup to do
masked infra-red soldering on sensitive chips. I can do the 'toaster'
thing with no problem (proto-advantage sells solder-paste masks, too),
but can't manage the delicate stuff.

When it comes time to actually populate a finished PCB, I farm that out
for cheap, but for prototyping, this is easy, quick, and guaranteed.

I've only run across one chip (module actually) that I cannot reliably
solder by hand with an iron -- and that one chip I can solder with a heat
gun to the back of a board.

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com

Tim Wescott fired this volley in news:Mo-
:

and that one chip I can solder with a heat
gun to the back of a board.


Ok... try this one, and keep the thermal profile where it needs to be --
with a heat gun.

(read the datasheet before you answer)
http://sccatalog.honeywell.com/imc/printfriendly.asp?
FAM=solidstate&PN=SS543AT

Lloyd

"Spehro Pefhany" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 30 Apr 2013 12:08:40 -0500, the renowned Tim Wescott
wrote:

If you haven't used an assembly microscope, try it. It makes all
the
difference in the world.

I can highly recommend the Leica A60, but it's not the sort of thing
that a hobbyist would likely want to spend their money on. Some of
the
Chinese ones are also pretty decent and maybe half the price (even
less on eBay but I've not tried the really cheap ones).

Spehro Pefhany

You could look for a 'low' cost dissecting microscope:
http://www.amscope.com/Student.html
jsw

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com fired this volley in
. 3.70:

Ok... try this one, and keep the thermal profile where it needs to be
--
with a heat gun.

(read the datasheet before you answer)
http://sccatalog.honeywell.com/imc/printfriendly.asp?
FAM=solidstate&PN=SS543AT


And just so you understand, even _I_ could solder that down with an iron;
it's got big leads and wide spacing.

I still wouldn't know if I'd kept it inside the maximum thermal profile;
even with a temperature-controlled iron.

And I wouldn't have any way to determine after-the-fact whether or not it
was still in specifications -- only if it functioned. I don't own a
gauss meter capable of measuring the flux inside a 1mm square patch
accurately.

And neither do you. I say that, not because I know what tools you have,
but because that's a pretty 'exotic' instrument even for a good lab, and
because you suggested that anything could be done with an iron or a heat
gun... that pretty well describes your equipment list. Why not a MAPP
torch? Wouldn't that be faster?

And you still avoided the matter that this is about protyping, not
building up 'kit' boards (even if you made 'em yourself).

Lloyd

No quite.. you were right before, when you wrote you must've been wrong.

It ain't like you were offering a kidney.

Never said I was a machinist.. but I recommend the movie, well, for mature
viewers anyway.
The Machinist (2004)

I never cared much for kidneys.

--
WB
..........


"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"Wild_Bill" fired this volley in
:

Grip, reality.


A machining group where many of the participants have, or are interested
in doing CNC conversions, and who make machinery (which often needs
custome electronics).

The whole statement was prefaced with "If you need full-custom
electronics in your new machine...".

Grip, reality.

You must be a purely water-powered, line shaft sort of machinist.

LLoyd

Pete C. wrote:


VHDL = Virtual Hardware Descriptor Language (programmable gate arrays
Nope, a nested acronym from the 1980's, courtesy of US government.
V = acronym for VHSIC = Very high speed integrated circuit
HDL as Pete says correctly above.

Jon

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:



But none of the above equipment supplies a person with what's needed to
do 'masked' IR reflow, where the body of the chip may not be heated, only
the leads. (I know, you guys would put a germanium IR detector chip
through a wave soldering process... but I wouldn't)

OK, well, this is quite a bit more specialized than most
people are working with. I recently got a Weller WHA900 hot air
tool, and this works quite nicely for removing big FPGAs and such
without damaging the board. Not so clear about damage to the chips,
but it seems they can usually be reused, if that was the purpose of
the rework.

Since I need custom circuitry in every piece of automation I sell, I need
to do this a lot, and having to stop, design, and do isolation milling of
a different board every time I want to evaluate a chip would just be a
stupid waste of my time and my clients' money.

I have often done prototyping using a board that used the same land
pattern, even if it didn't use the same chip. (if it used the same
chip, then power and ground pins would be in the same place, a definite
bonus.)

I thought (from all the past bragging) that there were some serious,
component-level designers here. I was clearly wrong about that.

Well, I design stuff by assembling a bunch of off-the-shelf
components, if that is what you mean.

Jon

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Wed, 01 May 2013 06:16:06 -0500, the renowned "Lloyd E.
Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:



I really regret trying to pass on what I thought would be a favor.
Please forget I mentioned it.


Lloyd

Lloyd, thanks for griping about it ;-) I actually went back and read
your first post, which was indeed useful and new information (to me).
Well, okay, the problem with this is the round-trip time. When I
figure out I need a particular part on a project, I can start hand-carving
a piece of PC board material, and have a simple circuit built up in
an hour. Now, if I have to order the part from Digi-Key, then maybe
Proto-Advantage can get me the adapter almost as fast. As it is, now,
I have accumulated such a HUGE junkbox that I can build an awful lot
of stuff out of parts on hand, and thereby eliminate putting the
project on hold waiting for parts.

Jon

On 2013-05-01, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
Larry Jaques fired this volley in
:

I have two aids I use

Heh... I guess this whole thing has 'gone over the heads' of the group
(et. al.)


[ ... ]

Since I need custom circuitry in every piece of automation I sell, I need
to do this a lot, and having to stop, design, and do isolation milling of
a different board every time I want to evaluate a chip would just be a
stupid waste of my time and my clients' money.

Agreed.

I thought (from all the past bragging) that there were some serious,
component-level designers here. I was clearly wrong about that.

I don't do it nearly as often as you do -- and I mostly use my
old collection of TTL chips in DIP packages when I do -- but ...

And I still use wire-wrap for a lot of things when I do toss
together a circuit.

I really regret trying to pass on what I thought would be a favor.
Please forget I mentioned it.

I appreciate it -- and I kept out of the discussion because I
did not see anything useful I could add. And the number of people who
thought they knew what you are doing/what you need -- and don't is
amazing.

Thanks,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2013-05-01, Wild_Bill wrote:
At least you probably won't forget you mentioned it.

Readers might've been impessed if the rant was posted to an electronics
design group/forum.

These days, people here are convertering older machines to more
modern CNC -- so logic design and prototyping is a reasonable skill to
expect among some of us, at least.

Most anyone has found things that make their life/job/hobby easier, but most
don't post 'em to a metalworking group, and expect anyone reading it to
express their deep felt gratitude as if you were handing out $100 bills.

You don't convert older CNC machines to newer controllers?

Grip, reality.

Self -- mirror

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

It doesn't matter to me (anymore) what anyone posts, but in about 15 years
of participating in usenet groups, I think this was only the 3rd instance of
someone complaining about, essentially, not receiving an award for their
menial contribution.

Most conversions can be accomplished with off-the-shelf (or off eBag)
products, from what I've seen over the years.

No.. I like manual metalworking machines, and it's not for income, it's
rec-re-freakin-ation (as the Rcm acronym represents), and as numerous RCMers
have pointed out over the years (including yourself, probably).

Self-mirror indeed, DoN.

--
WB
..........


"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
On 2013-05-01, Wild_Bill wrote:
At least you probably won't forget you mentioned it.

Readers might've been impessed if the rant was posted to an electronics
design group/forum.

These days, people here are convertering older machines to more
modern CNC -- so logic design and prototyping is a reasonable skill to
expect among some of us, at least.

Most anyone has found things that make their life/job/hobby easier, but
most
don't post 'em to a metalworking group, and expect anyone reading it to
express their deep felt gratitude as if you were handing out $100 bills.

You don't convert older CNC machines to newer controllers?

Grip, reality.

Self -- mirror

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. |
http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Wed, 01 May 2013 10:18:50 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Larry Jaques fired this volley in
:

a different board every time I want to evaluate a chip would just be a
stupid waste of my time and my clients' money.

Not if you can talk the client into paying for it.

It's still wasting their money, and doesn't earn me as much as if I'd had
a faster way. If I care about their outcomes, they usually care about
mine. G

This is true. But every once in awhile, I try to tell a client that
he could get someone cheaper to do the task but he wants me to do it.
On occasion, I'll stoop to it. On other occasions, I'll gladly relax
and do the simple task for lots of money and we're both happy.

--
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.
-- Sir Winston Churchill

Larry Jaques fired this volley in
:

I'll gladly relax
and do the simple task for lots of money and we're both happy.

G
LLoyd

"Wild_Bill" fired this volley in
:

I think this was only the 3rd instance of
someone complaining about, essentially, not receiving an award for
their
menial contribution.


But hardly the first or even fiftieth instance of you and your ilk loudly
denying the worth of someone's recommendation, just because you don't
personally have a need for it. (or worse, do, but don't understand the
issues)

Like the dolt who suggested soldering SMTs with a heat gun without
knowing WHAT SMTs I was working with... That's like saying "I can
perform surgery with an English Broadsword", before finding out it's a
mouse on which eye surgery must be done.

Bill, if you have zero electronics skills, then light switches might be a
challenge. Certainly you do not need pre-populated SMT breakout boards.

But that hardly makes the concept worthless.

LLoyd