On May 1, 7:16*am, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:



I really regret trying to pass on what I thought would be a favor.
Please forget I mentioned it.

Lloyd

The main reason I read this newsgroup is hear what others do. A lot
of the time I never use the information, but still enjoy reading about
how others approach problems. So thanks for posting. And thanks to
all the others who posted what they do. It is all better than the OT
posts.


Dan

On 4/30/2013 11:18 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 30 Apr 2013 13:49:15 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Tim Wescott wrote:

On Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:23:51 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

A shout-out for a great service:

If you need full-custom electronics in your new tool, you know how hard
it is to find the ICs you need in DIP packages. Everything now comes in
"Small Outline" packages -- or smaller! I was getting pretty
frustrated trying to solder 0.8mm-pitch ICs, and don't have the setup to
glue down really small stuff (and don't even _talk_ about the .5mm
TSOPs!). Not even the toaster oven method is safe on all chips like
hall-effect sensors... fwiw.

Back in January, I found an outfit that makes "breakout boards" for
every conceivable "small outline" and "surface mount" packaged IC you
can name, adapting them to standard DIP outlines for prototyping. They
have hundreds of styles in stock, fitting tens of thousands of ICs. And
they're inexpensive


They not only sell the boards, but for a little more, they'll order your
parts from DigiKey, solder them on the boards, put pins on the board so
you can plug it into your protoboard, and ship it via any method you
want.

I ordered some boards populated with teensy little analog multiplexor
chips with leads so close they looked like hair, back in January...
about 4pm on that day. The next morning, they shipped! They had gotten
the parts from DigiKey, installed them, and shipped the goods in about
14 hours!

It's a great way to work with those little chips that eventually will go
on your finished pcb without having to track down DIP versions (which
might not even exist!).

They are, www.proto-advantage.com -- they're Canadian, and I think they
ship pretty much everywhere.

In order to get your stuff installed, you first must locate your part
from DigiKey, and identify what "package outline" it uses. Then you go
on proto-advantage's site, and look up the breakout board for that
package and pin count. When you go to order the breakout board, you'll
get a chance to enter your DigiKey part number, and have THEM order and
install it for you. If you have any questions, they are quick and
helpful with email replies.

I was getting to the point where I could no longer solder those fine-
pitch ICs (Heck! I couldn't even SEE 'em anymore). Now I 'can'. G

If you haven't used an assembly microscope, try it. It makes all the
difference in the world.

Even a decent ring lighted magnifier lamp is a huge help, and a lot
cheaper.

I have two aids I use. One is a Third Hand, a pair of movable
roa...um, alligator clips on ball-jointed arms and a 4" magnifying
glass, all on a weighted stand. http://tinyurl.com/bvlp8wv

The other is the ring-fluor mag lamp. I bought it for $30 at HF a
dozen years ago and it still works great. (They're up to $40 now,
Tim.) http://tinyurl.com/bomrc3b

--
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.
-- Sir Winston Churchill


Mom said you'd go blind!

Adapter/conversion boards have been available for years.. I've also seen
equipment with dip package enclosures to mount a few small components in,
then place the cover on it.
I've worked with ICs since the '70s. They aren't that complicated.. even
reflowing large flat packs, and amizingly they even worked properly
afterward.
All the pins are right where they're supposed to be, deal with it.

So you imply that no one has your experience or expertise.. and everyone's
too dumb to understand the importance.

I can't make it any clearer.. it was't the topic, it was the whining about
not receiving the level of appreciation you were apparently assuming you'd
receive.

Metalworking, recreation.. if I'd seen any indication that you could
comprehend what's written, I'd suggest you look up those words.

It's similar to you going to a cooking class and discussing your bloody
farts problem.

--
WB
..........


"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"Wild_Bill" fired this volley in
:

I think this was only the 3rd instance of
someone complaining about, essentially, not receiving an award for
their
menial contribution.


But hardly the first or even fiftieth instance of you and your ilk loudly
denying the worth of someone's recommendation, just because you don't
personally have a need for it. (or worse, do, but don't understand the
issues)

Like the dolt who suggested soldering SMTs with a heat gun without
knowing WHAT SMTs I was working with... That's like saying "I can
perform surgery with an English Broadsword", before finding out it's a
mouse on which eye surgery must be done.

Bill, if you have zero electronics skills, then light switches might be a
challenge. Certainly you do not need pre-populated SMT breakout boards.

But that hardly makes the concept worthless.

LLoyd

"Wild_Bill" fired this volley in
:

It's similar to you going to a cooking class and discussing your bloody
farts problem.

If the cooking or the 'wild' cooks are the cause, then it's an apt
subject for discussion.

I've worked with ICs since the '70s. They aren't that complicated.. even
reflowing large flat packs, and amizingly they even worked properly
afterward.

Sure... TI released their first full-scale TTL Handbook in '67 or '68,
but by then they were 'old hat' for real engineers. RTL and DTL were
already on the phase-out by then.

But more to your point: If this recreational metalworking forum isn't the
right place to discuss an electronics help for recreational machinists to
do recreational CNC conversions, then where, exactly, should we discuss
it?

Oh... I know... we'll go discuss machining-related subjects on the
electronics-only/video games fora, and see how they respond. You say _I_
don't understand?

"Large flat packs" shows exactly where your accumulation of IC knowlege
stopped. That was what -- '83? So I guess my "implication" of your
skills was fully correct.

If you had any appreciation of the current technologies, I'd ask you to
look up a few terms, too.

LLoyd





Lloyd

On Thu, 02 May 2013 06:38:11 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Larry Jaques fired this volley in
:

I'll gladly relax
and do the simple task for lots of money and we're both happy.

G

Sure. Laugh. I'm not rich like you.

--
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.
-- Sir Winston Churchill

On Wed, 01 May 2013 11:48:18 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

And just so you understand, even _I_ could solder that down with an
iron; it's got big leads and wide spacing.

I still wouldn't know if I'd kept it inside the maximum thermal profile;
even with a temperature-controlled iron.

And I wouldn't have any way to determine after-the-fact whether or not
it was still in specifications -- only if it functioned. I don't own a
gauss meter capable of measuring the flux inside a 1mm square patch
accurately.

And neither do you. I say that, not because I know what tools you have,
but because that's a pretty 'exotic' instrument even for a good lab, and
because you suggested that anything could be done with an iron or a heat
gun... that pretty well describes your equipment list. Why not a MAPP
torch? Wouldn't that be faster?

And you still avoided the matter that this is about protyping, not
building up 'kit' boards (even if you made 'em yourself).

Well, I'm sorry that you're offended. I was just making a suggestion,
and as such I was expecting you only take it if it made sense.

--
My liberal friends think I'm a conservative kook.
My conservative friends think I'm a liberal kook.
Why am I not happy that they have found common ground?

Tim Wescott, Communications, Control, Circuits & Software
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Hot air has been universally accepted as a favorable/preferred method for
assembly and rework applications.
Hot air (or hot, clean, dry nitrogen) and other methods also work well in
small production runs and repair work.

I have hot air nozzles which have an integral shield, specifically to direct
the hot air flow away from the IC package, and heat just the leads.. but
Lloyd has also missed that development which has been around for years, too.

Only LLoyd is insisting that his perfect method is the only method which can
or should ever be used.

He's essentially said that anyone who doesn't understand the paramount
significance is too stupid (dolt) to appreciate the true value of his shared
genius.

Sound familiar? It's the same egomaniacal blathering stance as gummer and a
few others here.

The more they babble, the more stupidity they reveal.

--
WB
..........


"Jon Elson" wrote in message
...
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:



But none of the above equipment supplies a person with what's needed to
do 'masked' IR reflow, where the body of the chip may not be heated, only
the leads. (I know, you guys would put a germanium IR detector chip
through a wave soldering process... but I wouldn't)

OK, well, this is quite a bit more specialized than most
people are working with. I recently got a Weller WHA900 hot air
tool, and this works quite nicely for removing big FPGAs and such
without damaging the board. Not so clear about damage to the chips,
but it seems they can usually be reused, if that was the purpose of
the rework.

Since I need custom circuitry in every piece of automation I sell, I need
to do this a lot, and having to stop, design, and do isolation milling of
a different board every time I want to evaluate a chip would just be a
stupid waste of my time and my clients' money.

I have often done prototyping using a board that used the same land
pattern, even if it didn't use the same chip. (if it used the same
chip, then power and ground pins would be in the same place, a definite
bonus.)

I thought (from all the past bragging) that there were some serious,
component-level designers here. I was clearly wrong about that.

Well, I design stuff by assembling a bunch of off-the-shelf
components, if that is what you mean.

Jon

It was a foregone conclusion as to the cause of your bloody farts.. you're
head's routinely been up your ass.

All you were able to show anyone about your imagined superior intelligence
is that you're almost as smart as an average reader of industry periodicals
(magazines) such as EDM or Machine Design. Congratu****inlations.

Your feeble attempt to misdirect fault/blame might have actually been
successful if you were making your excuses to a group of stupid dolts.

OH, that's right.. you believe you are.

Follow the timeline of the posts genius.. I only implied that you might be
acting foolish AFTER you complained about not receiving everyone's eternal
gratitude for you taking the time to share a discovery that you made years
after it's widespread use.

You might whine to groups like alt.angst or betrayed.by.god etc.. but the
response may be shutthe****up.

You won't find a single instance of any of my comments suggesting I am/was
an engineer or machinist.

Metalworking.
Recreation.
Apparently still having trouble with those big words.

Probably don't get shown any appreciation in your home life either.
Clergy and counselors are available to hear your cries/feelings of lack of
respect or appreciation.

Your strawman scenarios belong where your head spends most of it's time.
Continuing to illuminate your glowing genius only shows that you're more
stupider than previously suggested.

--
WB
..........


"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"Wild_Bill" fired this volley in
:

It's similar to you going to a cooking class and discussing your bloody
farts problem.

If the cooking or the 'wild' cooks are the cause, then it's an apt
subject for discussion.

I've worked with ICs since the '70s. They aren't that complicated.. even
reflowing large flat packs, and amizingly they even worked properly
afterward.

Sure... TI released their first full-scale TTL Handbook in '67 or '68,
but by then they were 'old hat' for real engineers. RTL and DTL were
already on the phase-out by then.

But more to your point: If this recreational metalworking forum isn't the
right place to discuss an electronics help for recreational machinists to
do recreational CNC conversions, then where, exactly, should we discuss
it?

Oh... I know... we'll go discuss machining-related subjects on the
electronics-only/video games fora, and see how they respond. You say _I_
don't understand?

"Large flat packs" shows exactly where your accumulation of IC knowlege
stopped. That was what -- '83? So I guess my "implication" of your
skills was fully correct.

If you had any appreciation of the current technologies, I'd ask you to
look up a few terms, too.

LLoyd





Lloyd

"Wild_Bill" fired this volley in
news
I have hot air nozzles which have an integral shield, specifically to
direct the hot air flow away from the IC package, and heat just the
leads.. but Lloyd has also missed that development which has been
around for years, too.

Idiot! You just don't know _anything_ about soldering, do you?

I was working with hot air rework stations before you started pretending
to form words about it.

Hot air is not a satisfactory method with some chips, because you cannot
prevent it from flowing up and on the body, even with shields.

But, I guess you can't read, either. I said "masked IR". Which part
didn't you understand; the English parts? In masked infra-red reflow,
the chip body only heats to that degree permitted by conduction from the
leads, but almost zero heat is imposed on the body by the source.

Hot air reflow, on the other hand, could only be best described as "not
'deliberately' heating the body of the chip".

There IS a method that can be used that uses a heat-dissipating gel to
keep the body of the chip cool; and their are custom 'body-fitted' heat
sink clamps that may be applied... But you didn't know about those,
either.

Obviously, you've never done any method, or you'd know that.
There's only one thing worse than a charlatan like you; an idiot, lying
charlatan like you who's been caught out.

Lloyd

"Wild_Bill" fired this volley in
news
You won't find a single instance of any of my comments suggesting I
am/was an engineer or machinist.

....or even mentally competent; only a liar, pretending that stuff you
'read about on-line' is stuff you KNOW about. Twit!

Since you can't do either 'metalworking' or 'recreation' without
confusing them with an opportunity to lie about something, why don't you
now just 'shutthe****up', as you say, Weird Blowhard.

Lloyd

So ignore all the facts.. no surprise, since facts don't support you're
agenda.

Ah.. counter-accusations. Is that rule #2 or #3 after rule #1: Deny?

You're a genuine idiot.

Timeline of posts.. you're blatently wrong, and won't become right
regardless of how many accusations you dispense.

Maybe all the upper tier servers are lying too.

Go ahead, charm us with your impressions of yourself.. repeat after gummer.

--
WB
..........
been soldering without difficulties since about 1964, it's not difficult..
consumer, commercial and military electronics, on vehicle body steel,
hairsprings in panel meters.. it's all the same, all-ya-gotta-do-is: pay
attention.
With slightly higher aspirations after successfully helping other students
master the lineman's splice in 7th grade electric shop, while they were
wiring batteries to light bulbs, I assembled a working tube-model AM
transmitter Knight kit.
Yeah.. it must be lies.

Couldn't Be Real! now keep repeating




"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"Wild_Bill" fired this volley in
news
You won't find a single instance of any of my comments suggesting I
am/was an engineer or machinist.

...or even mentally competent; only a liar, pretending that stuff you
'read about on-line' is stuff you KNOW about. Twit!

Since you can't do either 'metalworking' or 'recreation' without
confusing them with an opportunity to lie about something, why don't you
now just 'shutthe****up', as you say, Weird Blowhard.

Lloyd

Holy ****.. I wasn't replying to you or your bull****.

Jon referred to hot air, I commented that it's been utilized by industry for
years.

FOAD

--
WB
..........




"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"Wild_Bill" fired this volley in
news
I have hot air nozzles which have an integral shield, specifically to
direct the hot air flow away from the IC package, and heat just the
leads.. but Lloyd has also missed that development which has been
around for years, too.

Idiot! You just don't know _anything_ about soldering, do you?

I was working with hot air rework stations before you started pretending
to form words about it.

Hot air is not a satisfactory method with some chips, because you cannot
prevent it from flowing up and on the body, even with shields.

But, I guess you can't read, either. I said "masked IR". Which part
didn't you understand; the English parts? In masked infra-red reflow,
the chip body only heats to that degree permitted by conduction from the
leads, but almost zero heat is imposed on the body by the source.

Hot air reflow, on the other hand, could only be best described as "not
'deliberately' heating the body of the chip".

There IS a method that can be used that uses a heat-dissipating gel to
keep the body of the chip cool; and their are custom 'body-fitted' heat
sink clamps that may be applied... But you didn't know about those,
either.

Obviously, you've never done any method, or you'd know that.
There's only one thing worse than a charlatan like you; an idiot, lying
charlatan like you who's been caught out.

Lloyd

"Wild_Bill" fired this volley in
:

So ignore all the facts.. no surprise, since facts don't support you're
agenda.


Bill,
You were and are completely right.
I was slightly off-base by offering a method I thought would benefit a
few people here, without first asking everyone if they already had a
better method.

I was even more off-base by being surprised and very disappointed that a
DIY forum might not want and need an easy way to solve a problem I
thought more folks here had.

Their methods clearly are adequate for all purposes with all types of
ICs, and I rudely ignored that fact. It was completely wrong of me to
try so hard to convince people of the merits of the idea, no matter if I
have experience with all of their alternative methods, or not (for a
fact, I do).

From now on, when I offer a method I think a few people might appreciate,
I will very carefully preface any message I make about it with, "For
anyone who doesn't already have a better method, let me offer this:"

Does that satisfy? Does that make amends for my selfish behavior?

Lloyd

On Sat, 04 May 2013 08:51:29 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

"Wild_Bill" fired this volley in
:

So ignore all the facts.. no surprise, since facts don't support you're
agenda.


Bill,
You were and are completely right.
I was slightly off-base by offering a method I thought would benefit a
few people here, without first asking everyone if they already had a
better method.

I was even more off-base by being surprised and very disappointed that a
DIY forum might not want and need an easy way to solve a problem I
thought more folks here had.

Their methods clearly are adequate for all purposes with all types of
ICs, and I rudely ignored that fact. It was completely wrong of me to
try so hard to convince people of the merits of the idea, no matter if I
have experience with all of their alternative methods, or not (for a
fact, I do).

From now on, when I offer a method I think a few people might appreciate,
I will very carefully preface any message I make about it with, "For
anyone who doesn't already have a better method, let me offer this:"

Does that satisfy? Does that make amends for my selfish behavior?

Newp. We need no apology, but you rudely ignored those of us who
already had him neatly stuffed in our twit filters by posting to him.
Twit him immediately, please. It'll make _you_ feel better, too.

--
Always bear in mind that your own resolution to
succeed is more important than any one thing.
-- Abraham Lincoln

Larry Jaques fired this volley in
:

Twit him immediately, please.

Twitting now.
LS

On Sat, 04 May 2013 09:16:40 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Larry Jaques fired this volley in
:

Twit him immediately, please.

Twitting now.

Well done, sir!

--
Always bear in mind that your own resolution to
succeed is more important than any one thing.
-- Abraham Lincoln

On Sat, 04 May 2013 09:16:40 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Larry Jaques fired this volley in
:

Twit him immediately, please.

Twitting now.
LS

Thank you!


"The ruling class doesn't care about public safety. Having made it
very difficult for States and localities to police themselves, having
left ordinary citizens with no choice but to protect themselves as
best they can, they now try to take our guns away. In fact they blame
us and our guns for crime. This is so wrong that it cannot be an
honest mistake."
Malcolm Wallop
former U.S. Sen. (R-WY)

On May 4, 7:16*am, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
Larry Jaques fired this volley :

Twit him immediately, please.

Twitting now.
LS

Kill files are for pussies like Mark Wieber and Larry Jackass.

There is no reason to kill file a machining idiot like Wild Bill. It's
much easier to refute his bull**** and point out that Wild Bill posts
almost nothing machining related.

You're far to talented to stoop to the level or Mark Wieber or Larry
Jackass or to let a world class moron like Wild Bill influence you.

jon_banquer fired this volley in news:5076a5a8-
:

You're far to talented to stoop to the level or Mark Wieber or Larry
Jackass or to let a world class moron like Wild Bill influence you.


Jon,
My apologia was directed at those who would care; and I don't care if the
idiot enjoys it or not -- it was for the rest of the folks for my getting
into ****ing match with someone who's all **** and no knowlege,
"recreational" or no.

I don't use kill files, because they mask much that _must_ be attended
to.

When (as Larry calls it) I 'twit' someone, it's to make a note not to
respond to their bull**** again unless they recommend something that
would hurt someone.


LLoyd

On Sat, 04 May 2013 14:12:43 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

jon_banquer fired this volley in news:5076a5a8-
:

You're far to talented to stoop to the level or Mark Wieber or Larry
Jackass or to let a world class moron like Wild Bill influence you.


Jon,
My apologia was directed at those who would care; and I don't care if the
idiot enjoys it or not -- it was for the rest of the folks for my getting
into ****ing match with someone who's all **** and no knowlege,
"recreational" or no.

I don't use kill files, because they mask much that _must_ be attended
to.

When (as Larry calls it) I 'twit' someone, it's to make a note not to
respond to their bull**** again unless they recommend something that
would hurt someone.

If you're smart, you'll add another twit to your filters today, Lloyd.


--
Always bear in mind that your own resolution to
succeed is more important than any one thing.
-- Abraham Lincoln

On May 4, 12:12*pm, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
jon_banquer fired this volley in news:5076a5a8-
:

You're far to talented to stoop to the level or Mark Wieber or Larry
Jackass or to let a world class moron like Wild Bill influence you.

Jon,
My apologia was directed at those who would care; and I don't care if the
idiot enjoys it or not -- it was for the rest of the folks for my getting
into ****ing match with someone who's all **** and no knowlege,
"recreational" or no.

I don't use kill files, because they mask much that _must_ be attended
to.

When (as Larry calls it) I 'twit' someone, it's to make a note not to
respond to their bull**** again unless they recommend something that
would hurt someone.

LLoyd

For sure Larry Jackass is all **** and no knowledge and just like Wild
Bill he's not here to increase his machining knowledge either.

On May 4, 12:12*pm, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
jon_banquer fired this volley in news:5076a5a8-
:

You're far to talented to stoop to the level or Mark Wieber or Larry
Jackass or to let a world class moron like Wild Bill influence you.

Jon,
My apologia was directed at those who would care; and I don't care if the
idiot enjoys it or not -- it was for the rest of the folks for my getting
into ****ing match with someone who's all **** and no knowlege,
"recreational" or no.

I don't use kill files, because they mask much that _must_ be attended
to.

When (as Larry calls it) I 'twit' someone, it's to make a note not to
respond to their bull**** again unless they recommend something that
would hurt someone.

LLoyd

"I don't use kill files, because they mask much that _must_ be
attended to."

Good! I'm glad I was wrong. Ever notice how you learn much more when
you're wrong? I have.

On Tuesday, April 30, 2013 12:23:51 PM UTC-4, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
A shout-out for a great service:

Without getting mired in the dick-measuring that ensued after you posted this, let me just say, "Thanks." There have been more and more parts lately that I skip over in my designs because I have no economical way to prototype with them. Proto-Advantage could well be the answer. I will be trying them soon, for sure.

On another note, I just got a new order in from Zenni. In this order (since it was a buy one, get one half-price deal), I add a pair of close up glasses. My regular reading prescription with an extra two diopters to bring the focus up close for this tiny stuff. Way, way better than non-prescription magnifiers, and cost me about 15 bucks.

For the really tiny stuff, I will continue to use a microscope, but these glasses should go a long way in reducing the number of times I have to go that route. And, for the really, really tiny stuff, I'll let Proto-Advantage deal with it.

Thanks again.

What a ****.. again ignored the fact that I took exception to his
complaining about lack of appreciation (essentially saying everyone else is
too stupid "over their heads")... and NOT the product or the mention of it.

Sooo clever, but not enough to slip your patronizing remarks past anyone
with even average intelligence (evidently doesn't include Larry).

--
WB
..........


"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"Wild_Bill" fired this volley in
:

So ignore all the facts.. no surprise, since facts don't support you're
agenda.


Bill,
You were and are completely right.
I was slightly off-base by offering a method I thought would benefit a
few people here, without first asking everyone if they already had a
better method.

I was even more off-base by being surprised and very disappointed that a
DIY forum might not want and need an easy way to solve a problem I
thought more folks here had.

Their methods clearly are adequate for all purposes with all types of
ICs, and I rudely ignored that fact. It was completely wrong of me to
try so hard to convince people of the merits of the idea, no matter if I
have experience with all of their alternative methods, or not (for a
fact, I do).

From now on, when I offer a method I think a few people might appreciate,
I will very carefully preface any message I make about it with, "For
anyone who doesn't already have a better method, let me offer this:"

Does that satisfy? Does that make amends for my selfish behavior?

Lloyd