May I highjack this, since Gunner seems to have hit on a fix?

I have an '87 F-250 that won't start when it's hot. Let it sit days,
weeks, even months, indoors or out, and it fires right up. Even when
it's near 0F. Run it for a few minutes and it'll start again.

But run it until it get thoroughly warmed up, shut it off, and it
behaves as if it had a nearly dead battery: a-WUMP a-WUMP a-wump aaaa
clickety-click. Let it sit for 10 to 20 minutes (depending on the
outdoor temp) and it fires right up again. PITA at gas stations.

Engine is a replacement, the smaller-than-original V-8 (I forget the
name/displacement) so the truck is a bit underpowered but starts and
runs fine except for this not-when-hot thing. I'm a former mechanic,
I've taken it to a guy who's good, we feel like we've tried and/or
replaced everything.

Know any magic tweaks or arcane bits of Ford lore that might help me?

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

On 13 Feb 2013 04:48:19 -0400, Mike Spencer
wrote:


May I highjack this, since Gunner seems to have hit on a fix?

I have an '87 F-250 that won't start when it's hot. Let it sit days,
weeks, even months, indoors or out, and it fires right up. Even when
it's near 0F. Run it for a few minutes and it'll start again.

But run it until it get thoroughly warmed up, shut it off, and it
behaves as if it had a nearly dead battery: a-WUMP a-WUMP a-wump aaaa
clickety-click. Let it sit for 10 to 20 minutes (depending on the
outdoor temp) and it fires right up again. PITA at gas stations.

Engine is a replacement, the smaller-than-original V-8 (I forget the
name/displacement) so the truck is a bit underpowered but starts and
runs fine except for this not-when-hot thing. I'm a former mechanic,
I've taken it to a guy who's good, we feel like we've tried and/or
replaced everything.

Know any magic tweaks or arcane bits of Ford lore that might help me?

When I was a kid I had a Chevvy that did sort of the same thing. It
turned out to be the ignition coil.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Mike Spencer wrote:
May I highjack this, since Gunner seems to have hit on a fix?

I have an '87 F-250 that won't start when it's hot. Let it sit days,
weeks, even months, indoors or out, and it fires right up. Even when
it's near 0F. Run it for a few minutes and it'll start again.

But run it until it get thoroughly warmed up, shut it off, and it
behaves as if it had a nearly dead battery: a-WUMP a-WUMP a-wump aaaa
clickety-click. Let it sit for 10 to 20 minutes (depending on the
outdoor temp) and it fires right up again. PITA at gas stations.

Engine is a replacement, the smaller-than-original V-8 (I forget the
name/displacement) so the truck is a bit underpowered but starts and
runs fine except for this not-when-hot thing. I'm a former mechanic,
I've taken it to a guy who's good, we feel like we've tried and/or
replaced everything.

Know any magic tweaks or arcane bits of Ford lore that might help me?


If it has the same style starter as a GM the problem is likely the same.
The starter solenoid is getting heat soaked and causing problems. The
trick on the GM units is to install a jumper strap across the large
terminals on the starter and install a Ford style starter solenoid on
the fender.


--
Steve W.

On 13 Feb 2013 04:48:19 -0400, Mike Spencer
wrote:


May I highjack this, since Gunner seems to have hit on a fix?

I have an '87 F-250 that won't start when it's hot. Let it sit days,
weeks, even months, indoors or out, and it fires right up. Even when
it's near 0F. Run it for a few minutes and it'll start again.

But run it until it get thoroughly warmed up, shut it off, and it
behaves as if it had a nearly dead battery: a-WUMP a-WUMP a-wump aaaa
clickety-click. Let it sit for 10 to 20 minutes (depending on the
outdoor temp) and it fires right up again. PITA at gas stations.

Engine is a replacement, the smaller-than-original V-8 (I forget the
name/displacement) so the truck is a bit underpowered but starts and
runs fine except for this not-when-hot thing. I'm a former mechanic,
I've taken it to a guy who's good, we feel like we've tried and/or
replaced everything.

Know any magic tweaks or arcane bits of Ford lore that might help me?

It sounds like worn bushings in the starter. Replace it with a decent
one after testing to prove it. Autozone has battery testers you can
use for free, but a regular VOM will do the trick for you. Good
starters won't pull the battery down to 4 or 6 volts during cranking
but bad ones will. Make sure your battery terminals and all battery
cable connections are good and clean, then do a voltage test.

Chebbys make that sound when they need more shims between the starter
and the block/bell-housing.

--
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable
one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore,
all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...Autozone has battery testers you can
use for free, but a regular VOM will do the trick for you. Good
starters won't pull the battery down to 4 or 6 volts during cranking
but bad ones will. Make sure your battery terminals and all battery
cable connections are good and clean, then do a voltage test.


The really quick, simple test is to hit the starter with the
headlights on, pointing at something light colored like the garage
door or a cardboard box so you can see how much they dim. Try it on a
vehicle that works to get an idea of how much dimming is normal.

They don't dim at all if the starter solenoid or relay is open, and go
dark for a battery with little remaining capacity or bad terminal
connections.
jsw

Den 13-02-2013 03:13, skrev:
On Tue, 12 Feb 2013 22:39:21 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
wrote:

Maybe that is the case with US starters.
However the vast majority of European an Japanese starters today use a
combination of both solenoid/pre-engage and Bendix.
The starter drive on a Nippondenso geared starter LOOKS like a Bendix,
but what the helix does is turns the gear as it engages to prevent the
teeth from butting. This is accomplished on a direct drive starter
by the current flowing through the pull-in coil of the solenoid which
starts the armature turning as the gear is pre-engaged. The starter
does not start to crank under full power untill the gear is virtually
fully engaged.

Please don't tell this to the ****load of starters that go through my
workplace every day or I will get into big trouble.


On a reduction starter this system cannot be used . The motor is
geared very highly to the drive, so it would need to spin faster than
the current through the pull-in coil could turn it to assure the gear
turned enoug to avoid the teeth butting.

It IS used on many gearreduction starters.


I recieved Toyota factory training on the Nippondenso geared starter
when it ws first introduced on the 4M engine in the 1972 1/2 Mark 2
Corona and it was very well explained at that time. The information is
actually available on line - oh the joys of the internet - at
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h7.pdf.

So, as you can see, although it looks like a duck, it does't exactly
quack or crap like a duck.

Ducks comes in a lot of sizes and colours ;-)



--
Uffe

Den 13-02-2013 03:15, skrev:
On Tue, 12 Feb 2013 22:40:37 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
wrote:

Den 12-02-2013 18:42, skrev:
On Tue, 12 Feb 2013 08:49:59 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

John B. fired this volley in
:

The Bendix system was apparently phased out some 50 years ago and
replaced by an overrunning clutch design.


Do you work on a lot of engines? The Bendix is alive and healthy.

LLoyd
Nope - the genuine "bendix" style drive is pretty well limited to
things like snow-blowers etc with 120 volt starters. Virtually ALL
automotive starters use pre-engage starters with over-running
clutches, Don't know when I last saw an actual Bendix style drive on
an automobile - but it goes back to the seventies at least.

Maybe that is the case with US starters.
However the vast majority of European an Japanese starters today use a
combination of both solenoid/pre-engage and Bendix.
By the way - I'm more familliar with the Japanese way of doing
things than the American - having been a Toyota Tech since back in
1972, and a Toyota service manager for 10 years. - and as explained
in my last post - it is NOT a bendix (inertia) drive). It is a
pre-rotator on a pre-engaged gear reduction starter.

So we now have both "Genuine Bendix" and "Not Genuine Bendix" that react
in excact the same way but are different?

Sounds fishy to me and a lot of others.......

Maybe that is what Toyota says but that does not mean that it is the
only truth.


--
Uffe

Yep, 'ol Gummer comes to RCM for help, and I suspect that he never seeks any
help from the kook/fanatic groups he frequently cross-posts to.

He maintains a **** you, deal-with-it attitude towards RCM in defense of all
his bull**** fanatic postings, which when RCM is included in the list of
groups ends up drawing more kook ****ups to include RCM in their list of
groups for their own twisted rantings.

Gummer likes to call "off-topic" when anyone replies with criticisim these
behaviors, as if anyone would agree with that.

But RCM is likely the only place he can go for help.. sadly, some RCM'ers do
offer help, otherwise Gummer would probably go away.
No, on second thought, he'd still try to peddle rusty/broken junk machines
here.

It's just too bad that RCM'ers don't reply with: **** you, deal-with-it,
when he needs help.

--
WB
..........


"Dennis" wrote in message
. au...


Gunner, this is your first half on topic post to the group in ages & for a
change you didn't spam it across half a dozen unrelated groups involving
politics, guns or survivalist crap!

When its guns, politics or your survivalist BS it ends up here? What
gives?

You are doing my head in!

Mike Spencer writes:


But run it until it get thoroughly warmed up, shut it off, and it
behaves as if it had a nearly dead battery: a-WUMP a-WUMP a-wump aaaa
clickety-click. Let it sit for 10 to 20 minutes (depending on the
outdoor temp) and it fires right up again. PITA at gas stations.

First, carry some water. When it fails, squirt the starter to cool it off.
{Or better, test at home & have hose...}

But even before.... does it draw current? Do lights go dim, etc?

I'd suspect: starter, connections to it, connections at battery INCLUDING the grounds.


--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

On 13 Feb 2013 04:48:19 -0400, Mike Spencer
wrote:


May I highjack this, since Gunner seems to have hit on a fix?

I have an '87 F-250 that won't start when it's hot. Let it sit days,
weeks, even months, indoors or out, and it fires right up. Even when
it's near 0F. Run it for a few minutes and it'll start again.

But run it until it get thoroughly warmed up, shut it off, and it
behaves as if it had a nearly dead battery: a-WUMP a-WUMP a-wump aaaa
clickety-click. Let it sit for 10 to 20 minutes (depending on the
outdoor temp) and it fires right up again. PITA at gas stations.

Engine is a replacement, the smaller-than-original V-8 (I forget the
name/displacement) so the truck is a bit underpowered but starts and
runs fine except for this not-when-hot thing. I'm a former mechanic,
I've taken it to a guy who's good, we feel like we've tried and/or
replaced everything.

Know any magic tweaks or arcane bits of Ford lore that might help me?
Have you replaced the starter?

Also check for bad ground. When it doesn't start throw a booster cable
from neg batt terminal to the engine block clean ground.

On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 17:44:23 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On 13 Feb 2013 04:48:19 -0400, Mike Spencer
wrote:


May I highjack this, since Gunner seems to have hit on a fix?

I have an '87 F-250 that won't start when it's hot. Let it sit days,
weeks, even months, indoors or out, and it fires right up. Even when
it's near 0F. Run it for a few minutes and it'll start again.

But run it until it get thoroughly warmed up, shut it off, and it
behaves as if it had a nearly dead battery: a-WUMP a-WUMP a-wump aaaa
clickety-click. Let it sit for 10 to 20 minutes (depending on the
outdoor temp) and it fires right up again. PITA at gas stations.

Engine is a replacement, the smaller-than-original V-8 (I forget the
name/displacement) so the truck is a bit underpowered but starts and
runs fine except for this not-when-hot thing. I'm a former mechanic,
I've taken it to a guy who's good, we feel like we've tried and/or
replaced everything.

Know any magic tweaks or arcane bits of Ford lore that might help me?

When I was a kid I had a Chevvy that did sort of the same thing. It
turned out to be the ignition coil.


Impossible. The ignition coil will not prevent the starter from
cranking. It will make it not START, but not what the OP described.

On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 08:25:34 -0500, "Steve W."
wrote:

Mike Spencer wrote:
May I highjack this, since Gunner seems to have hit on a fix?

I have an '87 F-250 that won't start when it's hot. Let it sit days,
weeks, even months, indoors or out, and it fires right up. Even when
it's near 0F. Run it for a few minutes and it'll start again.

But run it until it get thoroughly warmed up, shut it off, and it
behaves as if it had a nearly dead battery: a-WUMP a-WUMP a-wump aaaa
clickety-click. Let it sit for 10 to 20 minutes (depending on the
outdoor temp) and it fires right up again. PITA at gas stations.

Engine is a replacement, the smaller-than-original V-8 (I forget the
name/displacement) so the truck is a bit underpowered but starts and
runs fine except for this not-when-hot thing. I'm a former mechanic,
I've taken it to a guy who's good, we feel like we've tried and/or
replaced everything.

Know any magic tweaks or arcane bits of Ford lore that might help me?


If it has the same style starter as a GM the problem is likely the same.
The starter solenoid is getting heat soaked and causing problems. The
trick on the GM units is to install a jumper strap across the large
terminals on the starter and install a Ford style starter solenoid on
the fender.
The problem on the GM starters was the aluminum field coils. Not
aware of Ford using them - but it is possible.

On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 18:04:43 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
wrote:

Den 13-02-2013 03:13, skrev:
On Tue, 12 Feb 2013 22:39:21 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
wrote:

Maybe that is the case with US starters.
However the vast majority of European an Japanese starters today use a
combination of both solenoid/pre-engage and Bendix.
The starter drive on a Nippondenso geared starter LOOKS like a Bendix,
but what the helix does is turns the gear as it engages to prevent the
teeth from butting. This is accomplished on a direct drive starter
by the current flowing through the pull-in coil of the solenoid which
starts the armature turning as the gear is pre-engaged. The starter
does not start to crank under full power untill the gear is virtually
fully engaged.

Please don't tell this to the ****load of starters that go through my
workplace every day or I will get into big trouble.


On a reduction starter this system cannot be used . The motor is
geared very highly to the drive, so it would need to spin faster than
the current through the pull-in coil could turn it to assure the gear
turned enoug to avoid the teeth butting.

It IS used on many gearreduction starters.


I recieved Toyota factory training on the Nippondenso geared starter
when it ws first introduced on the 4M engine in the 1972 1/2 Mark 2
Corona and it was very well explained at that time. The information is
actually available on line - oh the joys of the internet - at
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h7.pdf.

So, as you can see, although it looks like a duck, it does't exactly
quack or crap like a duck.

Ducks comes in a lot of sizes and colours ;-)
There are several different starter drives that have been used over
the years. A true bendix has a problem in that it disengages if the
engine half-starts. This problem was solved back in the early sixties
by the introduction of the (Bendix) "follo-thru" drive. This was a
modification of the "bendix". All true "bendix" and "follo-thru"
drives have a large drive spring and the drive is fastened to the
armature shaft by a pin. The original Bendix has a counter-weighted
drive gesr to p[rovide the inertia required to spin the gear out the
helix.
The "bendix" drive was very common on Lucas and Bosch starters in the
fifties and sixties, and some early autolite/prestolite starters.

The "follo-thru" gets an over-running clutch with a centrifugal
lockout pin (or more) that hold the drive in gear untill the starter
stops turning or the engine reaches a minimum of 400 RPM. The
follo-thru starter drive was common on Prestolite light duty starters,
while their heavy duty starters were more like a Delco, with a
solenoid engaged (pre-engage) drive with over-running clutch.
Pre-engage starters usually have a helix of some sort on the starter
armature shaft.

The bendix and follow-thru helix is on the gear side of the bendix
spring, and is part of the drive.

NONE of the currently produced Japaneseor european starters, to the
best of my knowledge, use a starter drive with a "bendix spring" -
which is a unique and essential part of a "bendix" drive.

I could explain in detail how the Bendix drive works, but at this
point it is enough to say there are NO Bendix drives used on ANY
pre-engage starters - or on ANY current production automotive engine
produced in the Americas, Europe, Australia or Japan/Korea/Thailand.

Perhaps in China, India or North Korea or some other technological
backwater - but these are not vehicles available for general sale in
the primary markets mentioned - europe, Japan, or the Americas.

Please list some of the things you tried, or replaced.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Mike Spencer" wrote in message
...

May I highjack this, since Gunner seems to have hit on a fix?

I have an '87 F-250 that won't start when it's hot. Let it sit days,
weeks, even months, indoors or out, and it fires right up. Even when
it's near 0F. Run it for a few minutes and it'll start again.

But run it until it get thoroughly warmed up, shut it off, and it
behaves as if it had a nearly dead battery: a-WUMP a-WUMP a-wump aaaa
clickety-click. Let it sit for 10 to 20 minutes (depending on the
outdoor temp) and it fires right up again. PITA at gas stations.

Engine is a replacement, the smaller-than-original V-8 (I forget the
name/displacement) so the truck is a bit underpowered but starts and
runs fine except for this not-when-hot thing. I'm a former mechanic,
I've taken it to a guy who's good, we feel like we've tried and/or
replaced everything.

Know any magic tweaks or arcane bits of Ford lore that might help me?

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 18:27:00 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
wrote:

Den 13-02-2013 03:15, skrev:
On Tue, 12 Feb 2013 22:40:37 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
wrote:

Den 12-02-2013 18:42, skrev:
On Tue, 12 Feb 2013 08:49:59 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

John B. fired this volley in
:

The Bendix system was apparently phased out some 50 years ago and
replaced by an overrunning clutch design.


Do you work on a lot of engines? The Bendix is alive and healthy.

LLoyd
Nope - the genuine "bendix" style drive is pretty well limited to
things like snow-blowers etc with 120 volt starters. Virtually ALL
automotive starters use pre-engage starters with over-running
clutches, Don't know when I last saw an actual Bendix style drive on
an automobile - but it goes back to the seventies at least.

Maybe that is the case with US starters.
However the vast majority of European an Japanese starters today use a
combination of both solenoid/pre-engage and Bendix.
By the way - I'm more familliar with the Japanese way of doing
things than the American - having been a Toyota Tech since back in
1972, and a Toyota service manager for 10 years. - and as explained
in my last post - it is NOT a bendix (inertia) drive). It is a
pre-rotator on a pre-engaged gear reduction starter.

So we now have both "Genuine Bendix" and "Not Genuine Bendix" that react
in excact the same way but are different?

Sounds fishy to me and a lot of others.......

Maybe that is what Toyota says but that does not mean that it is the
only truth.
Keep talking Uffe, your ignorance is showing.

There is no such thing as a "bendix" drive on a pre-engage starter. A
"bendix" drive is, by definition, a "self engaging" starter drive.

There are 2 basic kinds of "bendix" drive - the early "bendix" whick
had a bad habit of kicking out when an engine fired but did not start,
and a "bendix follo-thru" which stayed engaged untill the engine
started and ran.

I am a retired automotive mechanic, automotive service manager, high
school auto instructor, and automotive trade instructor and I know
what I'm talking about, and still have the texts that were used in
both educational levels, as well as numerous factory shop and training
manuals at my disposal, as well as what is available on the net.

wrote:

I recieved Toyota factory training on the Nippondenso geared starter
when it ws first introduced on the 4M engine in the 1972 1/2 Mark 2
Corona and it was very well explained at that time. The information is
actually available on line - oh the joys of the internet - at
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h7.pdf.


I had a '73 Corona. It was the worst piece of **** I ever drove.
That includes the Opel Caddette that had the hood latch pull out of the
body, at 55 MPH on I-75 in Cincinatti.

"Steve W." wrote:

Mike Spencer wrote:
May I highjack this, since Gunner seems to have hit on a fix?

I have an '87 F-250 that won't start when it's hot. Let it sit days,
weeks, even months, indoors or out, and it fires right up. Even when
it's near 0F. Run it for a few minutes and it'll start again.

But run it until it get thoroughly warmed up, shut it off, and it
behaves as if it had a nearly dead battery: a-WUMP a-WUMP a-wump aaaa
clickety-click. Let it sit for 10 to 20 minutes (depending on the
outdoor temp) and it fires right up again. PITA at gas stations.

Engine is a replacement, the smaller-than-original V-8 (I forget the
name/displacement) so the truck is a bit underpowered but starts and
runs fine except for this not-when-hot thing. I'm a former mechanic,
I've taken it to a guy who's good, we feel like we've tried and/or
replaced everything.

Know any magic tweaks or arcane bits of Ford lore that might help me?


If it has the same style starter as a GM the problem is likely the same.
The starter solenoid is getting heat soaked and causing problems. The
trick on the GM units is to install a jumper strap across the large
terminals on the starter and install a Ford style starter solenoid on
the fender.


I had that problem on a '66 GTO. I replaced the factory battery
cables with #1 AWG welding cable and never had any more trouble. The
mechanics couldn't agree what the problem was. Bad battery. (new) Bad
starter. (Rebuilt it myself) Bad Solenoid. (New)


I measured the drop across the battery cables and found a total drop
of nine volts. The new cables reduced that to about 1.5 volts.

On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 22:03:18 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


wrote:

I recieved Toyota factory training on the Nippondenso geared starter
when it ws first introduced on the 4M engine in the 1972 1/2 Mark 2
Corona and it was very well explained at that time. The information is
actually available on line - oh the joys of the internet - at
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h7.pdf.


I had a '73 Corona. It was the worst piece of **** I ever drove.
That includes the Opel Caddette that had the hood latch pull out of the
body, at 55 MPH on I-75 in Cincinatti.
The Corona and the Mark 2 were totally different vehicles - but early
'70s Toyotas, and any other Japanese cars, were quite substandard to
American vehicles - but no worse than british or German vehicles of
the time. In only a few short years, that changed SIGNIFICANTLY.

Is it a temp sensor that the computer is sensing and won't let
you burn up the engine ?

A sensor might be covered in oil / grime and gets hot and can't
cool easily.

I'd look at computer concepts and not mechanical ones. Today's
Truck/car has more and more computer controls and mommy may I stuff.

Martin

On 2/13/2013 7:25 AM, Steve W. wrote:
Mike Spencer wrote:
May I highjack this, since Gunner seems to have hit on a fix?

I have an '87 F-250 that won't start when it's hot. Let it sit days,
weeks, even months, indoors or out, and it fires right up. Even when
it's near 0F. Run it for a few minutes and it'll start again.

But run it until it get thoroughly warmed up, shut it off, and it
behaves as if it had a nearly dead battery: a-WUMP a-WUMP a-wump aaaa
clickety-click. Let it sit for 10 to 20 minutes (depending on the
outdoor temp) and it fires right up again. PITA at gas stations.

Engine is a replacement, the smaller-than-original V-8 (I forget the
name/displacement) so the truck is a bit underpowered but starts and
runs fine except for this not-when-hot thing. I'm a former mechanic,
I've taken it to a guy who's good, we feel like we've tried and/or
replaced everything.

Know any magic tweaks or arcane bits of Ford lore that might help me?


If it has the same style starter as a GM the problem is likely the same.
The starter solenoid is getting heat soaked and causing problems. The
trick on the GM units is to install a jumper strap across the large
terminals on the starter and install a Ford style starter solenoid on
the fender.

wrote:

On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 22:03:18 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


wrote:

I recieved Toyota factory training on the Nippondenso geared starter
when it ws first introduced on the 4M engine in the 1972 1/2 Mark 2
Corona and it was very well explained at that time. The information is
actually available on line - oh the joys of the internet - at
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h7.pdf.


I had a '73 Corona. It was the worst piece of **** I ever drove.
That includes the Opel Caddette that had the hood latch pull out of the
body, at 55 MPH on I-75 in Cincinatti.
The Corona and the Mark 2 were totally different vehicles - but early
'70s Toyotas, and any other Japanese cars, were quite substandard to
American vehicles - but no worse than british or German vehicles of
the time. In only a few short years, that changed SIGNIFICANTLY.


The disk brakes on that car were definately substandard. Hit them
hard in reverse, and the pads popped out even with good rotors & new
pads. Toyota told me that only 1000 '73 Coronas were imported, and
reqquired major redesigns rthe following year. No parts were availible,
without a six to nine month wait to get them from Japan. They wanted
$750 (US) for the speedometer cable. They wanted $600 for a seat cover
for the lower half of the rear seat. I got pulled over one morning (5
AM) by an Ohio State Highway Patrolman for speeding. I told him I was
unable to find parts for the speedometer, and the dealer didn't want to
order the part. He called me a #$%^&*( Liar. Then he aimed his
flashlight at it and asked, Is that a '73 Corona? I said yes. He
turned red and said, I owned one of these pieces of $#%^&*( crap. Get
out of here, and be more careful.

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 00:22:56 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


wrote:

On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 22:03:18 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


wrote:

I recieved Toyota factory training on the Nippondenso geared starter
when it ws first introduced on the 4M engine in the 1972 1/2 Mark 2
Corona and it was very well explained at that time. The information is
actually available on line - oh the joys of the internet - at
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h7.pdf.


I had a '73 Corona. It was the worst piece of **** I ever drove.
That includes the Opel Caddette that had the hood latch pull out of the
body, at 55 MPH on I-75 in Cincinatti.
The Corona and the Mark 2 were totally different vehicles - but early
'70s Toyotas, and any other Japanese cars, were quite substandard to
American vehicles - but no worse than british or German vehicles of
the time. In only a few short years, that changed SIGNIFICANTLY.


The disk brakes on that car were definately substandard. Hit them
hard in reverse, and the pads popped out even with good rotors & new
pads. Toyota told me that only 1000 '73 Coronas were imported, and
reqquired major redesigns rthe following year. No parts were availible,
without a six to nine month wait to get them from Japan. They wanted
$750 (US) for the speedometer cable. They wanted $600 for a seat cover
for the lower half of the rear seat. I got pulled over one morning (5
AM) by an Ohio State Highway Patrolman for speeding. I told him I was
unable to find parts for the speedometer, and the dealer didn't want to
order the part. He called me a #$%^&*( Liar. Then he aimed his
flashlight at it and asked, Is that a '73 Corona? I said yes. He
turned red and said, I owned one of these pieces of $#%^&*( crap. Get
out of here, and be more careful.
Funny thing, in Canada all of the parts were readilly available - and
actually reasonably priced. By 1974 they had the brake problem sorted
out - all replacement pads in Canada had the fix

On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 18:49:18 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 18:27:00 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
wrote:

Den 13-02-2013 03:15, skrev:
On Tue, 12 Feb 2013 22:40:37 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
wrote:

Den 12-02-2013 18:42, skrev:
On Tue, 12 Feb 2013 08:49:59 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

John B. fired this volley in
:

The Bendix system was apparently phased out some 50 years ago and
replaced by an overrunning clutch design.


Do you work on a lot of engines? The Bendix is alive and healthy.

LLoyd
Nope - the genuine "bendix" style drive is pretty well limited to
things like snow-blowers etc with 120 volt starters. Virtually ALL
automotive starters use pre-engage starters with over-running
clutches, Don't know when I last saw an actual Bendix style drive on
an automobile - but it goes back to the seventies at least.

Maybe that is the case with US starters.
However the vast majority of European an Japanese starters today use a
combination of both solenoid/pre-engage and Bendix.
By the way - I'm more familliar with the Japanese way of doing
things than the American - having been a Toyota Tech since back in
1972, and a Toyota service manager for 10 years. - and as explained
in my last post - it is NOT a bendix (inertia) drive). It is a
pre-rotator on a pre-engaged gear reduction starter.

So we now have both "Genuine Bendix" and "Not Genuine Bendix" that react
in excact the same way but are different?

Sounds fishy to me and a lot of others.......

Maybe that is what Toyota says but that does not mean that it is the
only truth.
Keep talking Uffe, your ignorance is showing.

There is no such thing as a "bendix" drive on a pre-engage starter. A
"bendix" drive is, by definition, a "self engaging" starter drive.

There are 2 basic kinds of "bendix" drive - the early "bendix" whick
had a bad habit of kicking out when an engine fired but did not start,
and a "bendix follo-thru" which stayed engaged untill the engine
started and ran.

I am a retired automotive mechanic, automotive service manager, high
school auto instructor, and automotive trade instructor and I know
what I'm talking about, and still have the texts that were used in
both educational levels, as well as numerous factory shop and training
manuals at my disposal, as well as what is available on the net.

Uffe, there's a lot of things that look similar, work similar, but
when you tear them apart and look closer the innards are totally
different.

You can't call it a Bendix Drive starter unless it's the Original and
Patented Design - what you see out there now is NOT. "Close" only
counts in Horseshoes and Hand Grenades...

Sometimes people reverse-engineer things like the original Bendix
Drive to get around patents, sometimes to fix problems like the ones
that made Bendix modify the design themselves to get the Follo-Thru.

Sometimes another company thinks they have a better way and it's
different enough that there are no patent questions - Ford's moving
pole-shoe 'solenoid' design - Ugly, but it works.

And sometimes they actually do come up with an even better way to do
it. Looks the same, basic operation is the same, lasts longer, less
kick-outs.

-- Bruce --

Den 14-02-2013 00:43, skrev:

There are several different starter drives that have been used over
the years. A true bendix has a problem in that it disengages if the
engine half-starts. This problem was solved back in the early sixties
by the introduction of the (Bendix) "follo-thru" drive. This was a
modification of the "bendix". All true "bendix" and "follo-thru"
drives have a large drive spring and the drive is fastened to the
armature shaft by a pin. The original Bendix has a counter-weighted
drive gesr to p[rovide the inertia required to spin the gear out the
helix.
The "bendix" drive was very common on Lucas and Bosch starters in the
fifties and sixties, and some early autolite/prestolite starters.

The "follo-thru" gets an over-running clutch with a centrifugal
lockout pin (or more) that hold the drive in gear untill the starter
stops turning or the engine reaches a minimum of 400 RPM. The
follo-thru starter drive was common on Prestolite light duty starters,
while their heavy duty starters were more like a Delco, with a
solenoid engaged (pre-engage) drive with over-running clutch.
Pre-engage starters usually have a helix of some sort on the starter
armature shaft.

I can only conclude that you have not seen all the starters on the
market but here you is acting as you have.
And the RPM that you state might be true for Toyota but it is not the
only truth for all cars.


The bendix and follow-thru helix is on the gear side of the bendix
spring, and is part of the drive.

NONE of the currently produced Japaneseor european starters, to the
best of my knowledge, use a starter drive with a "bendix spring" -
which is a unique and essential part of a "bendix" drive.

I could explain in detail how the Bendix drive works, but at this
point it is enough to say there are NO Bendix drives used on ANY
pre-engage starters - or on ANY current production automotive engine
produced in the Americas, Europe, Australia or Japan/Korea/Thailand.

If you say so.............

To be honest I do respect the knowledge that you have and from what you
is writing I for sure can tell that you're knowledge is huge. I really
would like to end the discussion. Because of our individual knowledge
this discussion could go on forever.
The fact that we are on different continents makes it difficult to meet
face to face and exchange stories on the subject :-)


--
Uffe

Den 14-02-2013 13:51, skrev:
On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 00:22:56 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


wrote:

On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 22:03:18 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


wrote:

I recieved Toyota factory training on the Nippondenso geared starter
when it ws first introduced on the 4M engine in the 1972 1/2 Mark 2
Corona and it was very well explained at that time. The information is
actually available on line - oh the joys of the internet - at
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h7.pdf.


I had a '73 Corona. It was the worst piece of **** I ever drove.
That includes the Opel Caddette that had the hood latch pull out of the
body, at 55 MPH on I-75 in Cincinatti.
The Corona and the Mark 2 were totally different vehicles - but early
'70s Toyotas, and any other Japanese cars, were quite substandard to
American vehicles - but no worse than british or German vehicles of
the time. In only a few short years, that changed SIGNIFICANTLY.


The disk brakes on that car were definately substandard. Hit them
hard in reverse, and the pads popped out even with good rotors & new
pads. Toyota told me that only 1000 '73 Coronas were imported, and
reqquired major redesigns rthe following year. No parts were availible,
without a six to nine month wait to get them from Japan. They wanted
$750 (US) for the speedometer cable. They wanted $600 for a seat cover
for the lower half of the rear seat. I got pulled over one morning (5
AM) by an Ohio State Highway Patrolman for speeding. I told him I was
unable to find parts for the speedometer, and the dealer didn't want to
order the part. He called me a #$%^&*( Liar. Then he aimed his
flashlight at it and asked, Is that a '73 Corona? I said yes. He
turned red and said, I owned one of these pieces of $#%^&*( crap. Get
out of here, and be more careful.
Funny thing, in Canada all of the parts were readilly available - and
actually reasonably priced. By 1974 they had the brake problem sorted
out - all replacement pads in Canada had the fix

The main thing in this story is the great barriers that we saw car-wise.
In USA it was difficult to get parts and service for Japanese and
European vehicles. In Europe it was difficult to get parts and service
for vehicles from USA (at least in some countries in Europe). I do not
know what the story was in Japan but I would not be surprised if they
had difficulties wit US and European vehicles.
Protectionism (most likely missspelled....)



--
Uffe

"Uffe Bærentsen" wrote in message
news:511d23ab$0$304

The main thing in this story is the great barriers that we saw
car-wise.
In USA it was difficult to get parts and service for Japanese and
European vehicles. In Europe it was difficult to get parts and
service for vehicles from USA (at least in some countries in
Europe). I do not know what the story was in Japan but I would not
be surprised if they had difficulties wit US and European vehicles.
Protectionism (most likely missspelled....)
Uffe

Whatever the reason it didn't affect Volkswagen, or Japanese
motorcycles. When I bought my first Honda car in 1974 the dealer's
parts department was well stocked. I checked.

Den 14-02-2013 17:30, Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable) skrev:
On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 18:49:18 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 18:27:00 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
wrote:

Den 13-02-2013 03:15, skrev:
On Tue, 12 Feb 2013 22:40:37 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
wrote:

Den 12-02-2013 18:42, skrev:
On Tue, 12 Feb 2013 08:49:59 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

John B. fired this volley in
:

The Bendix system was apparently phased out some 50 years ago and
replaced by an overrunning clutch design.


Do you work on a lot of engines? The Bendix is alive and healthy.

LLoyd
Nope - the genuine "bendix" style drive is pretty well limited to
things like snow-blowers etc with 120 volt starters. Virtually ALL
automotive starters use pre-engage starters with over-running
clutches, Don't know when I last saw an actual Bendix style drive on
an automobile - but it goes back to the seventies at least.

Maybe that is the case with US starters.
However the vast majority of European an Japanese starters today use a
combination of both solenoid/pre-engage and Bendix.
By the way - I'm more familliar with the Japanese way of doing
things than the American - having been a Toyota Tech since back in
1972, and a Toyota service manager for 10 years. - and as explained
in my last post - it is NOT a bendix (inertia) drive). It is a
pre-rotator on a pre-engaged gear reduction starter.

So we now have both "Genuine Bendix" and "Not Genuine Bendix" that react
in excact the same way but are different?

Sounds fishy to me and a lot of others.......

Maybe that is what Toyota says but that does not mean that it is the
only truth.
Keep talking Uffe, your ignorance is showing.

There is no such thing as a "bendix" drive on a pre-engage starter. A
"bendix" drive is, by definition, a "self engaging" starter drive.

There are 2 basic kinds of "bendix" drive - the early "bendix" whick
had a bad habit of kicking out when an engine fired but did not start,
and a "bendix follo-thru" which stayed engaged untill the engine
started and ran.

I am a retired automotive mechanic, automotive service manager, high
school auto instructor, and automotive trade instructor and I know
what I'm talking about, and still have the texts that were used in
both educational levels, as well as numerous factory shop and training
manuals at my disposal, as well as what is available on the net.

Uffe, there's a lot of things that look similar, work similar, but
when you tear them apart and look closer the innards are totally
different.

You can't call it a Bendix Drive starter unless it's the Original and
Patented Design - what you see out there now is NOT. "Close" only
counts in Horseshoes and Hand Grenades...

Sometimes people reverse-engineer things like the original Bendix
Drive to get around patents, sometimes to fix problems like the ones
that made Bendix modify the design themselves to get the Follo-Thru.

See that on a daily basis....


Sometimes another company thinks they have a better way and it's
different enough that there are no patent questions - Ford's moving
pole-shoe 'solenoid' design - Ugly, but it works.

Have not seen that constellation only true MAG-switch which this one is not.


And sometimes they actually do come up with an even better way to do
it. Looks the same, basic operation is the same, lasts longer, less
kick-outs.

Clutches and free-runs? See them on a daily basis in all sizes and
shapes :-)


--
Uffe

wrote:

Funny thing, in Canada all of the parts were readilly available - and
actually reasonably priced. By 1974 they had the brake problem sorted
out - all replacement pads in Canada had the fix


It wasn't the pads, it was the crap pad holder. It flexed when you
braked hard in reverse. The dealer told me to scrap the piece of ****,
that it was never safe. How many model specific parts would you stock
for a total import of 1000 vehicles?

Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Uffe Bærentsen" wrote in message
news:511d23ab$0$304

The main thing in this story is the great barriers that we saw
car-wise.
In USA it was difficult to get parts and service for Japanese and
European vehicles. In Europe it was difficult to get parts and
service for vehicles from USA (at least in some countries in
Europe). I do not know what the story was in Japan but I would not
be surprised if they had difficulties wit US and European vehicles.
Protectionism (most likely missspelled....)
Uffe

Whatever the reason it didn't affect Volkswagen, or Japanese
motorcycles. When I bought my first Honda car in 1974 the dealer's
parts department was well stocked. I checked.


They had parts for every other model of Toyota, just not that
year/model.

I wrote:

But run [F250] until it get thoroughly warmed up, shut it off, and it
behaves as if it had a nearly dead battery: a-WUMP a-WUMP a-wump
aaaa clickety-click. Let it sit for 10 to 20 minutes (depending
on the outdoor temp) and it fires right up again. PITA at gas
stations.


"Stormin Mormon" writes:

Please list some of the things you tried, or replaced.

Ha. Starter motor, fender-mounted solenoid/relay, battery and (for
other reasons) the alternator & belt.

Haven't replaced the cables, all of which appear clean and well
connected but not (See Mike Terrell's post) oversized. Haven't
replace the in-tank electric fuel pump or other fuel components or
sensors.

Folks in another venue have suggested overheating of the starter motor
itself by the nearby exhaust manifold. I haven't figured out how to
cobble up a heat shield yet. (Getting a little old, stiff and creaky
for crawling around under a truck, don'tcha know?)

Other posts saved for thinking about, thank y'all.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 18:49:29 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
wrote:

Den 14-02-2013 13:51, skrev:
On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 00:22:56 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


wrote:

On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 22:03:18 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


wrote:

I recieved Toyota factory training on the Nippondenso geared starter
when it ws first introduced on the 4M engine in the 1972 1/2 Mark 2
Corona and it was very well explained at that time. The information is
actually available on line - oh the joys of the internet - at
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h7.pdf.


I had a '73 Corona. It was the worst piece of **** I ever drove.
That includes the Opel Caddette that had the hood latch pull out of the
body, at 55 MPH on I-75 in Cincinatti.
The Corona and the Mark 2 were totally different vehicles - but early
'70s Toyotas, and any other Japanese cars, were quite substandard to
American vehicles - but no worse than british or German vehicles of
the time. In only a few short years, that changed SIGNIFICANTLY.


The disk brakes on that car were definately substandard. Hit them
hard in reverse, and the pads popped out even with good rotors & new
pads. Toyota told me that only 1000 '73 Coronas were imported, and
reqquired major redesigns rthe following year. No parts were availible,
without a six to nine month wait to get them from Japan. They wanted
$750 (US) for the speedometer cable. They wanted $600 for a seat cover
for the lower half of the rear seat. I got pulled over one morning (5
AM) by an Ohio State Highway Patrolman for speeding. I told him I was
unable to find parts for the speedometer, and the dealer didn't want to
order the part. He called me a #$%^&*( Liar. Then he aimed his
flashlight at it and asked, Is that a '73 Corona? I said yes. He
turned red and said, I owned one of these pieces of $#%^&*( crap. Get
out of here, and be more careful.
Funny thing, in Canada all of the parts were readilly available - and
actually reasonably priced. By 1974 they had the brake problem sorted
out - all replacement pads in Canada had the fix

The main thing in this story is the great barriers that we saw car-wise.
In USA it was difficult to get parts and service for Japanese and
European vehicles. In Europe it was difficult to get parts and service
for vehicles from USA (at least in some countries in Europe). I do not
know what the story was in Japan but I would not be surprised if they
had difficulties wit US and European vehicles.
Protectionism (most likely missspelled....)
You ought to try to get parts for ANYTHING in places like Zambia and
Burkina Faso. Had a gas landrover holed the block in Livingstone
Zambia back in '73. Bored the block, got an old fergusson Diesel
tractor sleave and machined it for a shrink-press fit in to the block,
heated the block with a big rosebud and froze the cyl with dry ice
(which was ONLY available in Livingstone, in all of southern province)
and dropped the sleave in. 3 days later we bored the sleave and put
the engine back together and into service. That was just one of MANY
"Zamfixes" that were required to keep vehicles on the road.
Getting a fanbelt for a 1962 Corvair took over a month, ordering it
from Canada - if you had money outside the country to pay for it with.
Six months if you needed to go through currency control - and you paid
about 150% duty to bring it in - and that was assuming you EVER got
it.

In 2000 in Ougadougo, Burkina Faso, I needed a valve retainer for a
Toyota Hilux diesel - none available and even the scrap-yards were
slim pickings. Needed alternator parts for a Mitsubishi Pajero - had
to make Toyota parts fit - and a power steering pump for a Nissan
Patrol proved impossible to get in the time I was there.

Today a friend of mine gets parts for his JDM Totota Hillux Surf
Diesel here in Canada in less than 2 weeks - a vehicle that was NEVER
imported to North America -straight from Japan.

When I had my Vauxhaul HC 2300 (Pontiac Firenza in Canada) on a trip
to the east coast the voltage regulator went bad - I was able to fit
one from an old Pontiac in by bending some connectors - impressed the
heck out of the GM dealer in Dartmouth. And on the way from Sydney to
Halifax it dropped the timing belt in about 5 pieces all over the
road. Thankfully it happened in Nova Scotia, because the next day I
was in Maine - and the Vauxhaul was not imported to the USA. They got
the Opel instead. The GM dealer in Norh Sydney had a belt hanging on a
nail in the parts department that he had no idea what it fit - one of
the pieces I picked up off the road had a readable part number - and
less than an hour later a friend was able to deliver the only Firenza
timing belt east of Toronto to me on the side of the road, where I
already had everything apart and timed up, ready for the belt - and I
was back on the road in about 10 minutes later.

Today with the internet it is a LOT easier to find parts for odball
stuff. A friend just ordered a bunch of parts for a 1961 Isetta 300
out of the USA off the internet. You could do that today from Banfora
Burkina Faso, or Muinilunga, Zambia, or Bujumbura Burundi - and with
international courier service, have the parts in less than a week -
just like we can from Waterloo, Ontario.

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 16:46:20 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


wrote:

Funny thing, in Canada all of the parts were readilly available - and
actually reasonably priced. By 1974 they had the brake problem sorted
out - all replacement pads in Canada had the fix


It wasn't the pads, it was the crap pad holder. It flexed when you
braked hard in reverse. The dealer told me to scrap the piece of ****,
that it was never safe. How many model specific parts would you stock
for a total import of 1000 vehicles?
You are thinking considerably older than 1973. You are thinking
about the RT40 or RT50 series. Or POSSIBLY the RT60 series.
The RT70 and 80 series started in 1972 - and had problems with the
lining separating from tha pads for a couple months of production,
from what I remember.

The Mark 2 started in 1969 - with the RT70 series - a one year series.

In late '73 the fifth generation RT108 series came out - and the new
Mark 2 6 cyl. (MX series, 22 and 27 being quite common).

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 16:47:28 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Uffe Bærentsen" wrote in message
news:511d23ab$0$304

The main thing in this story is the great barriers that we saw
car-wise.
In USA it was difficult to get parts and service for Japanese and
European vehicles. In Europe it was difficult to get parts and
service for vehicles from USA (at least in some countries in
Europe). I do not know what the story was in Japan but I would not
be surprised if they had difficulties wit US and European vehicles.
Protectionism (most likely missspelled....)
Uffe

Whatever the reason it didn't affect Volkswagen, or Japanese
motorcycles. When I bought my first Honda car in 1974 the dealer's
parts department was well stocked. I checked.


They had parts for every other model of Toyota, just not that
year/model.
Had to be the 1972 then - the 1972 Mark 2 was a one year only model -
less than 8 months production came to North America - but the brake
parts were not specific to the Mk.- and we never had any issues other
than the pads separating that I can remember. We likely sold 20 or 25
Mk 2 coronas that year - along with a couple dozen regular Coronas -
both sedan and hatch.

On 14 Feb 2013 20:30:02 -0400, Mike Spencer
wrote:


I wrote:

But run [F250] until it get thoroughly warmed up, shut it off, and it
behaves as if it had a nearly dead battery: a-WUMP a-WUMP a-wump
aaaa clickety-click. Let it sit for 10 to 20 minutes (depending
on the outdoor temp) and it fires right up again. PITA at gas
stations.


"Stormin Mormon" writes:

Please list some of the things you tried, or replaced.

Ha. Starter motor, fender-mounted solenoid/relay, battery and (for
other reasons) the alternator & belt.

Haven't replaced the cables, all of which appear clean and well
connected but not (See Mike Terrell's post) oversized. Haven't
replace the in-tank electric fuel pump or other fuel components or
sensors.

Folks in another venue have suggested overheating of the starter motor
itself by the nearby exhaust manifold. I haven't figured out how to
cobble up a heat shield yet. (Getting a little old, stiff and creaky
for crawling around under a truck, don'tcha know?)

Other posts saved for thinking about, thank y'all.
Ford MADE a heat shield for that starter if I remember correctly
-and installed it as standard equipment.

wrote:

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 16:46:20 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


wrote:

Funny thing, in Canada all of the parts were readilly available - and
actually reasonably priced. By 1974 they had the brake problem sorted
out - all replacement pads in Canada had the fix


It wasn't the pads, it was the crap pad holder. It flexed when you
braked hard in reverse. The dealer told me to scrap the piece of ****,
that it was never safe. How many model specific parts would you stock
for a total import of 1000 vehicles?
You are thinking considerably older than 1973. You are thinking
about the RT40 or RT50 series. Or POSSIBLY the RT60 series.
The RT70 and 80 series started in 1972 - and had problems with the
lining separating from tha pads for a couple months of production,
from what I remember.

The Mark 2 started in 1969 - with the RT70 series - a one year series.

In late '73 the fifth generation RT108 series came out - and the new
Mark 2 6 cyl. (MX series, 22 and 27 being quite common).


It was titled as a '73. Maybe they dumped the last 1000 of an older
mdel on the US market? I was told the disk brake system was completley
redesigned in the '74 model. I bought the piece of crap used, and
regretted it in a hurry but I need a way to get to work every day.

wrote:

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 16:47:28 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Uffe Bærentsen" wrote in message
news:511d23ab$0$304

The main thing in this story is the great barriers that we saw
car-wise.
In USA it was difficult to get parts and service for Japanese and
European vehicles. In Europe it was difficult to get parts and
service for vehicles from USA (at least in some countries in
Europe). I do not know what the story was in Japan but I would not
be surprised if they had difficulties wit US and European vehicles.
Protectionism (most likely missspelled....)
Uffe

Whatever the reason it didn't affect Volkswagen, or Japanese
motorcycles. When I bought my first Honda car in 1974 the dealer's
parts department was well stocked. I checked.


They had parts for every other model of Toyota, just not that
year/model.
Had to be the 1972 then - the 1972 Mark 2 was a one year only model -
less than 8 months production came to North America - but the brake
parts were not specific to the Mk.- and we never had any issues other
than the pads separating that I can remember. We likely sold 20 or 25
Mk 2 coronas that year - along with a couple dozen regular Coronas -
both sedan and hatch.


It was titled as a '73 model, but your description sounds like it. I
bought a new '83 Toyota pickup. I had it seven months when a woman
crossed the center line & hit me head on and spun me counter clockwise.
My head pushed the glass out of the back of the cab, and I bent the
steering column to the dash as I went sideways. It was the only time I
ever drove that truck without a seatbelt, and was told that I would have
been dead if I was wearing it. My dad had a motorhome built on a Toyota
chassis. It caught fire and burnt to the ground before a firetruck
could get there. I haven't had good luck with any Toyota. Pontiac,
Chevy, GMC & Dodge have never disappointed me. Some cost me less than
$100 a year to own & maintain. That Toyota pickup cost me $3000 for
seven months.

Den 15-02-2013 05:32, skrev:

The main thing in this story is the great barriers that we saw car-wise.
In USA it was difficult to get parts and service for Japanese and
European vehicles. In Europe it was difficult to get parts and service
for vehicles from USA (at least in some countries in Europe). I do not
know what the story was in Japan but I would not be surprised if they
had difficulties wit US and European vehicles.
Protectionism (most likely missspelled....)
You ought to try to get parts for ANYTHING in places like Zambia and
Burkina Faso. Had a gas landrover holed the block in Livingstone
Zambia back in '73. Bored the block, got an old fergusson Diesel
tractor sleave and machined it for a shrink-press fit in to the block,
heated the block with a big rosebud and froze the cyl with dry ice
(which was ONLY available in Livingstone, in all of southern province)
and dropped the sleave in. 3 days later we bored the sleave and put
the engine back together and into service. That was just one of MANY
"Zamfixes" that were required to keep vehicles on the road.
Getting a fanbelt for a 1962 Corvair took over a month, ordering it
from Canada - if you had money outside the country to pay for it with.
Six months if you needed to go through currency control - and you paid
about 150% duty to bring it in - and that was assuming you EVER got
it.

In 2000 in Ougadougo, Burkina Faso, I needed a valve retainer for a
Toyota Hilux diesel - none available and even the scrap-yards were
slim pickings. Needed alternator parts for a Mitsubishi Pajero - had
to make Toyota parts fit - and a power steering pump for a Nissan
Patrol proved impossible to get in the time I was there.

Today a friend of mine gets parts for his JDM Totota Hillux Surf
Diesel here in Canada in less than 2 weeks - a vehicle that was NEVER
imported to North America -straight from Japan.

When I had my Vauxhaul HC 2300 (Pontiac Firenza in Canada) on a trip
to the east coast the voltage regulator went bad - I was able to fit
one from an old Pontiac in by bending some connectors - impressed the
heck out of the GM dealer in Dartmouth. And on the way from Sydney to
Halifax it dropped the timing belt in about 5 pieces all over the
road. Thankfully it happened in Nova Scotia, because the next day I
was in Maine - and the Vauxhaul was not imported to the USA. They got
the Opel instead. The GM dealer in Norh Sydney had a belt hanging on a
nail in the parts department that he had no idea what it fit - one of
the pieces I picked up off the road had a readable part number - and
less than an hour later a friend was able to deliver the only Firenza
timing belt east of Toronto to me on the side of the road, where I
already had everything apart and timed up, ready for the belt - and I
was back on the road in about 10 minutes later.

Today with the internet it is a LOT easier to find parts for odball
stuff. A friend just ordered a bunch of parts for a 1961 Isetta 300
out of the USA off the internet. You could do that today from Banfora
Burkina Faso, or Muinilunga, Zambia, or Bujumbura Burundi - and with
international courier service, have the parts in less than a week -
just like we can from Waterloo, Ontario.

Sounds like you have seen most of what a car can throw at you.



--
Uffe

"Uffe Bærentsen" wrote in message
. ..
Den 15-02-2013 05:32, skrev:

You ought to try to get parts for ANYTHING in places like Zambia
and
Burkina Faso.

Sounds like you have seen most of what a car can throw at you.
Uffe

The PBS show on Pharaoh's Chariot showed a lot of experimental metal
and woodworking in Egyptian street shops, with equipment similar to my
hobby shop or that of the architectural door-maker I helped build a
steam bender.

The old South Bend booklets describe how to make and recondition
automotive pistons, valves and electric motors. Doesn't the less
developed world have such small general repair shops available?
Iron-working in central Africa dates from many centuries BC.

I've asked engineers from Asia and Africa about this, but it seems
they had all avoided such demeaning manual skills if they were smart
and rich enough to get into a foreign university.

On 14 Feb 2013 20:30:02 -0400, Mike Spencer
wrote:


I wrote:

But run [F250] until it get thoroughly warmed up, shut it off, and it
behaves as if it had a nearly dead battery: a-WUMP a-WUMP a-wump
aaaa clickety-click. Let it sit for 10 to 20 minutes (depending
on the outdoor temp) and it fires right up again. PITA at gas
stations.


"Stormin Mormon" writes:

Please list some of the things you tried, or replaced.

Ha. Starter motor, fender-mounted solenoid/relay, battery and (for
other reasons) the alternator & belt.

Haven't replaced the cables, all of which appear clean and well
connected but not (See Mike Terrell's post) oversized. Haven't
replace the in-tank electric fuel pump or other fuel components or
sensors.

Folks in another venue have suggested overheating of the starter motor
itself by the nearby exhaust manifold. I haven't figured out how to
cobble up a heat shield yet. (Getting a little old, stiff and creaky
for crawling around under a truck, don'tcha know?)

Other posts saved for thinking about, thank y'all.
Second sun had that prob. with a '68 valiant after he put a V8 in it,
exhaust leak would overheat the starter and it had to cool more than
an hour before it would start. he stopped for supper one night and it
wouldn't start when it was time to resume his journey. By the time I
got there to rescue him (90 minutes latter) it fired right up and he
followed me home.

On Fri, 15 Feb 2013 00:32:41 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

It was titled as a '73 model, but your description sounds like it. I
bought a new '83 Toyota pickup. I had it seven months when a woman
crossed the center line & hit me head on and spun me counter clockwise.
My head pushed the glass out of the back of the cab, and I bent the
steering column to the dash as I went sideways. It was the only time I
ever drove that truck without a seatbelt, and was told that I would have
been dead if I was wearing it. My dad had a motorhome built on a Toyota
chassis. It caught fire and burnt to the ground before a firetruck
could get there. I haven't had good luck with any Toyota. Pontiac,
Chevy, GMC & Dodge have never disappointed me. Some cost me less than
$100 a year to own & maintain. That Toyota pickup cost me $3000 for
seven months.
Interesting.
I have owned Toyota, Peugeot, VW, Renault, Ford GM, Chrysler,AMC,
Austin/Morris, Vauxhaul and Mitsu****ty. In my immediate family you
can add Honda, Nissan, Mazda, Sunbeam/rootes, Rover, and likely a few
I've missed.

As you may have surmised, I was not impressed with the Mitsu product.

The last GM was quite possibly the most problematic vehicle I've ever
owned - and I know my Dad had more trouble with his one GMC pickup
than with any two of his other vehcles. Just stupid stuff - like the
box inner fenderwells being too wide, so they rubbed on the tires
untill, after being brushed off by the dealer service manager for
about 6 months there was a service bulletin/recall to jack the
fenderwells in - The hanger bearing on the driveshaft squeaked and was
supposedly replaced 3 times by the local dealer - then failed on a
trip to Saskatchewan, where the dealer stated the bearing had NEVER
been removed and had been oiled instead - it blew the muffler off
about every 4000 miles if he didn't have the points changed at about
3000 (I later found the ground strap to the breaker plate had never
been installed) and a fan blade that made an unexpected exit from the
engine compartment trough the hood. Now that was back in 1968 IIRC.

My Pontiac TransSport just never did work 100% - and kept giving me
reasons to dislike it on a regular basis - as much as I really wanted
to like the thing.

Dad's heavy half 1980? Toyota pickup had a wooden barn built on the
back to carry his electrical tools and supplies and virtually NEVER
had less than 2 tons on it - and he flogged the living daylights out
of it. The young fellows working with him on the job called him
"swervin' Mervin" and in 6 years he replaced one front wheel bearing
and one rear wheel bearing, and I think 2 sets of brakes and tires.
Absolutely NO other repairs. Anything that put up with Dad's use as a
truck that well was a tough little truck.

Other than the Aerostar body rust, I've been pretty happy with my
Fords - currently have 2 again. My used Chryslers have usually treated
me pretty well - the only new vehicle I ever owned was 1 '76
Ramcharger, and initial quality was AWFULL. Door adjustment so bad it
leaked when it rained - and after the dealer re-adjusted it a pencip
dropped on the floor would land on the ground - and the tailgate fell
off on my foot the first time I opened it. Terrible dealer PDI and
service. I and my kid brother did all the body adjustments, I
recalibrated the carb, and it was a pretty decent truck when I
unloaded it a year and a half later - at a significant financial cost.

We rallied the 72 R12 Renault for 3 years and never broke it.
The '67 Peugeot 204 was I guess typical of the breed. Not terribly
reliable, but unknown 5 year history before I ended up with it - and
central Africa is not easy on cars. The '61 mini was - well - British.
And it had 196,000 miles on it when I bought it for $60. What can I
say. The 1972 Vauxhall HC was a surprisingly good and reliable car.
Sold as a Pontiac Firenza up here - and the joke was "any f'renz a
yours ain't fi'renz a mine". If you treated it like a british car
instead of a Pontiac, it was fine. (open the hood and fondle it's nuts
every week or so)

On Fri, 15 Feb 2013 23:17:35 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
wrote:

Den 15-02-2013 05:32, skrev:

The main thing in this story is the great barriers that we saw car-wise.
In USA it was difficult to get parts and service for Japanese and
European vehicles. In Europe it was difficult to get parts and service
for vehicles from USA (at least in some countries in Europe). I do not
know what the story was in Japan but I would not be surprised if they
had difficulties wit US and European vehicles.
Protectionism (most likely missspelled....)
You ought to try to get parts for ANYTHING in places like Zambia and
Burkina Faso. Had a gas landrover holed the block in Livingstone
Zambia back in '73. Bored the block, got an old fergusson Diesel
tractor sleave and machined it for a shrink-press fit in to the block,
heated the block with a big rosebud and froze the cyl with dry ice
(which was ONLY available in Livingstone, in all of southern province)
and dropped the sleave in. 3 days later we bored the sleave and put
the engine back together and into service. That was just one of MANY
"Zamfixes" that were required to keep vehicles on the road.
Getting a fanbelt for a 1962 Corvair took over a month, ordering it
from Canada - if you had money outside the country to pay for it with.
Six months if you needed to go through currency control - and you paid
about 150% duty to bring it in - and that was assuming you EVER got
it.

In 2000 in Ougadougo, Burkina Faso, I needed a valve retainer for a
Toyota Hilux diesel - none available and even the scrap-yards were
slim pickings. Needed alternator parts for a Mitsubishi Pajero - had
to make Toyota parts fit - and a power steering pump for a Nissan
Patrol proved impossible to get in the time I was there.

Today a friend of mine gets parts for his JDM Totota Hillux Surf
Diesel here in Canada in less than 2 weeks - a vehicle that was NEVER
imported to North America -straight from Japan.

When I had my Vauxhaul HC 2300 (Pontiac Firenza in Canada) on a trip
to the east coast the voltage regulator went bad - I was able to fit
one from an old Pontiac in by bending some connectors - impressed the
heck out of the GM dealer in Dartmouth. And on the way from Sydney to
Halifax it dropped the timing belt in about 5 pieces all over the
road. Thankfully it happened in Nova Scotia, because the next day I
was in Maine - and the Vauxhaul was not imported to the USA. They got
the Opel instead. The GM dealer in Norh Sydney had a belt hanging on a
nail in the parts department that he had no idea what it fit - one of
the pieces I picked up off the road had a readable part number - and
less than an hour later a friend was able to deliver the only Firenza
timing belt east of Toronto to me on the side of the road, where I
already had everything apart and timed up, ready for the belt - and I
was back on the road in about 10 minutes later.

Today with the internet it is a LOT easier to find parts for odball
stuff. A friend just ordered a bunch of parts for a 1961 Isetta 300
out of the USA off the internet. You could do that today from Banfora
Burkina Faso, or Muinilunga, Zambia, or Bujumbura Burundi - and with
international courier service, have the parts in less than a week -
just like we can from Waterloo, Ontario.

Sounds like you have seen most of what a car can throw at you.
And those are just the highlights of the last 46 years. - and not
including any of the customer vehicle issues in my life in the trade
(about 25 years) in Canada -----